← The Nerve with Maureen Callahan
The Nerve with Maureen Callahan
Maureen Callahan Talks Vogue, Meghan Markle, Tom Cruise, and the Art of Writing on "Next Up"
01:10:28
Enjoy this special episode of "Next Up with Mark Halperin," featuring a long-form interview with "The Nerve" host Maureen Callahan, about Vogue Magazine, Meghan Markle, Tom Cruise, the art of writing, the next book Maureen wants to write, and more. Subscribe to Mark's show Next Up: Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/next-up-with-mark-halperin/id1810218232 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2f0n8G4xqUo8aGxbbbtRjH YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@nextuphalperin?sub_confirmation=1
Loading summary
Transcript171 lines
- [00:05]
ExxonMobil Announcer
What if we could reduce carbon emissions and strengthen the economy? At ExxonMobil, we believe both are possible. As a global leader in carbon capture and storage, we're empowering industries to reduce their emissions all through technologies that are creating job opportunities in America. How's that for a win win ExxonMobil, let's deliver.
- [00:31]
Mark Halperin
When work gets crazy, I like to.
- [00:33]
Maureen Callahan
Stop by the bar after, have a few cold ones. I don't drink at all until 4 o'.
- [00:39]
Public Service Announcer
Clock.
- [00:39]
Mark Halperin
We limit ourselves to one bottle of wine a night. Excessive drinking has a way of sneaking up on us. A few drinks, a few nights a week, it can add up and suddenly we're at greater risk for long term problems like heart disease, cancer and depression. Reason enough to rethink the Drink. More@rethinkthedrink.com no HA Initiative hey there, fans of the Nerve and Maureen Callahan. It's Mark halpern, host of NextUp, also here on the Megyn Kelly Network. I recently had the pleasure to sit down with Maureen. I want you to enjoy that discussion. And while you're at it, subscribe to NextUp wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome in to NextUp, you nexters from North America around the world. I'm Mark Halperin, editor in chief for the live interactive platform two way and the host here of everything. Next up, another week. It's Tuesday and you know what that means. A brand new episode. We're happy to have you here. I'll bring you my exclusive reporting on a topic that we've talked about a little bit, but I think super important now in the wake of the assassination of Charlie Kirk, stories that matter most to us are important and this one is as big as anything. And then next up after that, Maureen Callahan, columnist for the Daily Mail, host of the Nerve, my sister program here on the Megyn Kelly Network. Maureen and I are going to talk about writing, arithmetic, pop culture and celebrity, so you won't want to miss that. But first up is my new reporting on Charlie Kirk. Put aside the day to day headlines of what's happened since his assassination. I think the bigger thing here is what Charlie represented, the person. And his death, of course, matters extraordinarily to the people in his family, his friends, business associates, colleagues. But I've been thinking a lot about what it means more broadly and talking to a lot of people in the conservative movement who can explain this so well. MAGA folks who I've talked to in the last few days, reflecting on Charlie's life and why this has been so impactful you hear about the impact not just from the President and the Vice President and people who knew Charlie personally, but I've been struck on two way and other conversations as I've traveled the last few days, how much people who never knew Charlie and weren't even particularly aware of what his day to day activities were, how much they've been struck by this. Now part of it is just the horror of what happened and the horrible images of his murder that resonate with any human being. But a lot of it is for people in this country supported President Trump even in many cases when they didn't like him. Why, why, why does it, why is this so powerful? I think Charlie, biographically and in terms of what he did in his career has so many of the elements that have caused the MAGA movement to grow. Donald Trump, it's often been said, didn't lead this movement so much as figure out was there and get to the front of the line, in front of the parade and lead folks, organize folks. What's happened here, I believe, is that Charlie's life, Charlie's biography is so resonant with folks because of the strands that it represents. For decades, conservatives in this country have felt aggrieved, alienated, shut out from so much of what is sometimes called the mainstream because liberal institutions, the media, universities, big corporations, in many cases Hollywood news, and so many of the big institutions have not just alienated people on the right, but often hurt them, kept them from job advancement, kept them from having rewarded times in college, kept them from getting, getting fair media coverage if they were in politics. Charlie represented so many of the themes, so many of the specifics that people in MAGA have reacted against and his death, his murder has made them feel like one of their champions, one of their great success stories was eliminated as a symbolic pushing back. Regardless, regardless of who actually pulled the trigger. Charlie was not in his life, given credit by the establishment that he should have been. Had Charlie Kirk been a Democrat and done what he done in service of say, Barack Obama, he would have been one of the most fetid, celebrated, profiled, championed people in America. Now Charlie got plenty of credit in certain circles. This program certainly paid respect to what, what an extraordinary life he had. But he was not treated the way he'd been. He wouldn't had been a Democrat. So what are these themes? What are these elements of Charlie's life that the establishment, the liberal establishment in particular, did not celebrate, did not feel a closeness to? I'd start with his education. Not only did Charlie not go to An Ivy League school or some other fancy school. Charlie didn't graduate from college. And the establishment, again, the liberal establishment, I'll use them interchangeably, they don't respect that, they don't like that, they don't identify with that. So for a lot of folks who knew Charlie's story, the fact that he was so successful running $100 million company friends with presidents, vice presidents, other leaders didn't graduate from college, rubbed some people the wrong way, kept him from being seen the way he should have been seen. And for people in this country less educated, of course, a huge reason Donald Trump was elected president twice and almost won a third time was that education divide, right? There's no more important demographic divide in America now between red and blue than education. President Trump, historically, you see it in the polls today, does better with less educated voters. And Charlie represented that got a life education in the real world, but didn't graduate from college. Next, religion, right? The Democratic Party has become the secular party. And this is not a subjective judgment. The polls show it. Charlie wore his faith on his sleeve. Charlie had Jesus Christ as his savior. And Charlie didn't shy away from that. He didn't pull his punches when he spoke in secular locations like in some universities. He didn't hide from it. He didn't shy away from it, nor did he judge others because of it. But by being a man of faith, by saying, I am doing this to make the world a better place, to do the Lord's work here on earth. The liberal establishment doesn't get that. They don't identify that. And the fact that Charlie was religious and that that kept him from achieving the, the approval of, of people on the left. Again, that's a theme. You hear it time and again from religious conservatives. You see it in the fights over school curriculum. You see them some fights that occurred around Covid. People of faith are not treated the same by the liberal establishment. They're looked down on their scorn, they're discriminated against. Charlie Rose rose above that. But that theme, very resonant. And he was well aware of his ability to use that to his advantage to rally people of faith around him. He lived in Arizona. There's another example of the bias. Great place, love it in Arizona. But the east coast liberal media establishment, they just don't credit people achieving things that aren't in the bi coastal space. Charlie also achieved his success without the help of the left. And you look at all the great things that have risen up and again, Donald Trump, exhibit A. All the extraordinary stories of success from maga, Charlie and the President, first and foremost, I would say as president, getting elected president, bigger deal. But to develop that kind of power, that kind of following, without the help of the left, going around the liberal media, not needing the money of people on the left, not needing the help from universities or Hollywood, establishment doesn't like that. It's a threat to their power. Charlie's success occurring that way really undermined people on the left and it's a great source of inspiration to people in maga. Right. Charlie started a popular show, a popular video podcast. He didn't need CBS News or NBC News or the New York Times to help him do that. That ability was a great source of pride for Charlie, great source of pride for his followers. But again, it's another way in which here's a guy rises up, develops a successful show on his own, and then he's eliminated. Okay, another one related. Charlie was not chummy with the establishment media. He was respectful to them. And you can find probably as for as as much for Charlie as any leading MAGA figure. You will find lots of liberal reporters who had dealings with him, he was friendly with, who he was often agreed to do interviews with, sometimes surprised me. But he didn't need them and he didn't really associate with them. He did not. He, you know, there's some people, even some conservatives, who will fly to Washington D.C. or New York and do editorial boards or go out to dinner with reporters. Charlie didn't do that much because he didn't need to and he didn't really want to rather be home with his family and long flight from Arizona. But that's different. And the fact that someone without being chummy with the establishment press could succeed and then be eliminated, that's another one that has really inspired people while he was alive and frustrates people now that he has been killed. Threat to their power, Right? Think about Charlie. Threaten universities, hammer lock, hold on their students, going on university campuses and telling conservatives, you don't need to listen to the, to the establishment, you don't need to listen to the administrators, you don't need to listen to the liberals on this campus. You can do what you want. Okay? Threat to their power starts a popular success, commercially successful video program, doesn't need the establishment to do that, says, I'm going to help President Trump get elected by figuring out how to register people to vote and turn them out. Again, a threat to the establishment. All of these things, all of Charlie's achievements, whether it's turning Point, whether it was Voter registration, whether it was his show, whether it was his capacity to influence Congress, all those things he did not only without the help of the establishment. He did it by undermining the establishment's hold on power. They hated that, the extent they thought about it. A lot of them were too naive to understand just how effective he was, and ignorant. But all of those things were a threat. And that's why he got all this negative coverage to the extent he was covered when he was alive. Now that he's passed, now that he's been killed, you see some positive coverage of him in places like the New York Times and cnn. Makes my stomach turn that only because he's dead that they're giving him some positive coverage. Not universally so, to say the least, but all of these things being a threat to their power. But in the end, all those things that I've listed are super important. They're super important to why Charlie was so beloved and so many people are proud of him in the conservative movement. But they also speak to why his death, his murder, has made so many people in MAGA upset. There's the personal reason, but the symbolism of someone who did all of those things, who overcome all of those biases, all of those prejudices, was a success. Now, to have his life ended, it makes them sad and it makes them angry. But the two biggest factors are the fact that he was a conservative and that he was pro Trump. And this is where the decades of history of all these institutions being biased against conservatives and Republicans changes. When Donald Trump comes on the scene again, make no mistake, you can go back to Nixon and Reagan and the Bushes. Extraordinary bias against Republicans and conservatives. But Trump made it different. Donald Trump's rise on the scene, even though, again, ironically, his whole career, including his 2026, 2016 presidential campaign, featured Trump's close relationship with a lot of these cultural institutions that are liberal. They like Trump. He used to be a Democrat and a liberal, but as they turned on him after he beat Hillary Clinton, as they turned on him, anyone in this country pro Trump and pro conservative is discriminated against by these liberal cultural institutions. And I've heard it for 10 years now, people saying they can't wear a MAGA hat, they can't say on a, on a zoom call in their workplace, I'm for Trump. Now. Since he's been reelected in 2024, that's changed somewhat. It's been one of the most, I think, under discussed, understood, maybe misunderstood developments. Where you see it in the, you know, the changes in the di programs, you see it in the willingness of some people to be way more outspoken about supporting Donald Trump. But from 2016 to 2024, and even now, all of the things that I've listed about Charlie that set him apart from the establishment approval matrix, they're front and center. And again, to be a conservative, to be openly for Donald Trump even now in many places, is to court big trouble and to risk hurting your career. Charlie's legacy is multifaceted, right. There's so many things he achieved that people will remember him for. But perhaps I think his biggest achievement, and this relates to why people are so upset about his death, is 31 years old, didn't grow up with connections, wasn't really involved on the national stage in a significant way until 2016 when he started to travel with Don Jr. Was his capacity to say, I will use hard work, I will use principle, I will use my faith, I will use my big brain to do all these things that the liberal establishment doesn't want a pro Trump conservative who's religious to do, and I'll succeed at them. It's hard to think of anyone 31 years old in the United States who's had the kind of meaningful, meaningful achievement that Charlie Kirk had. You know, there's athletes and there's musicians. But I'm talking about changing the real lives of real people, of inspiring people, of uplifting people, of getting young people in particular into the political system. All these things I'm talking about. Now, you could. You, could you. I could talk to Donald Trump about it, or J.D. vance or Don Jr. Or Speaker of the House. They'd all get it. They'd all. They'd all. They'd all probably be a little bit bored because they'd say, duh. Of course. But what I'm concerned about is, as I've tried to give a version of this. Have a version of this conversation with Democrats that I know, blank looks, blank looks. First of all, they don't understand what Charlie achieved. Even now, even as it's been covered since his murder, they still don't get it. They still don't understand what made him so different. We've tried to talk about that here. I've talked about it everywhere since he was assassinated because I think it's so important that the left understand. First of all, they should understand history. But second of all, they need to appreciate why people on the right are so upset. But they also don't understand because they cannot compute in their heads how someone could have so much success going around the complex matrix of power that they put in place through their liberal institutions to keep people like Charlie from succeeding. And the only reason Charlie succeeded at pretty much everything he tried to do was because of his extraordinary gifts, his determination, his faith, his big brain, and the relationships he built. This disconnect, this disconnect where they don't see Charlie as anything but kind of some Trump flunky. They do not see what he achieved, and they do not see with symbolism all the things that the liberal establishment tries to control. Charlie had, and he survived and thrived. A non Ivy League, Christian, Western Western living guy who avoided the media or didn't, didn't seek their approval or their help with non traditional experience. Pro Trump conservative. All of that was an extraordinary threat to their power. And taking him off this earth has caused a visceral reaction on the right because they get all that. He was their champion of ideas and he was their champion of political success and organization. But for many of them, he was a champion of making a statement that In America in 2025, you can be all those things and a huge success. And what a setback for people inspired by him, including a lot of young people who want to be able to say what they want to say on campus, even if they're not necessarily super maga. They want a university, a college, to live up to what it's supposed to be, a place where people can say what they think, the ideas that matter to them, whether others agreed or disagreed. And now an assassin has said, no, no, you can't do that. The reason why so many who love Charlie are determined to make sure that not only does his record, his accomplishments, his. His personal story lives on, but the work must continue. Because if someone who overcame all of those things, all of those establishment tripwires don't come in here and try to succeed. If you're a religious conservative who likes Donald Trump, don't try it. In America. If someone who overcame all of that is eliminated by an assassin's bullet and he is not replicated, I won't say replaced, but replicated in some way so that people can see that what Charlie did could work for others. If that doesn't happen, you will see a lot of anger, more than you see now. That's why the determination is so high. Charlie's achievements, seen in the context in which I am putting them, that for him to do what he did required overcoming pretty much every list of bias the liberal establishment has, every list of a threat that they would feel, a practical threat, psychological, emotional. For him to succeed is an extraordinary story. I'll keep telling the story because I think it's so important to understand the MAGA movement and to understand the life of this extraordinary young man. But I ask again for people on the left listening to my voice, watching me now understand what the death, the murder, the assassination of Charlie Kirk means not just to prominent Republicans, but to rank and file people around the country. It's not just the loss of a leader or a friend or a guy with a degree of success. It's the elimination of, of someone who demonstrated not just that he could overcome all these biases, but that he could thrive and start to change the system to set an example. As I traveled around the country in 2024, going to Trump events and meeting people who supported President Trump, often events that Charlie was at or his organization, Turning Point, was involved in, I saw a different kind of young conservative than I'd seen during my career. Not shy, not afraid. We willing to go publicly to a rally, to be on social media, to be visible on campus. Now liberal students have had that capacity, have had that right, have had that opportunity for as long as I've been on college campuses. What Charlie played a role in as much as anyone else, was to make this possible for young conservatives. And I continue to be struck week following his murder by how many kids say to me, younger people, college age or thereabouts, or their parents say to me this is really hard, not just because of what Charlie did, kind of in a day to day way, but the symbolism to say this guy who said to young people who are conservative or interested in conservative ideas, not necessarily full on maga. I'm going to come to your campus, I'm going to take on all comers, I'm going to take questions, I am going to celebrate the free exchange of ideas. In some ways there couldn't be anybody worse to have assassinated truly, because he was killed doing the thing that was the most resonant, the most symbolically resonant for young people and for people in maga. Universities are as liberal as any other cultural institution. We have more than the media, more than Hollywood. Hard to believe I could say that, but it's true. And universities were places that Charlie put so much emphasis on. Now he doing it for political reasons. He wanted Republicans and MAGA to, to get a higher percentage of young voters, which President Trump did in 2024. But I know from talking about it he loved the symbolism of it. He loved the capacity to free the voices and souls and independence of conservatives in this country who could walk around a college campus and participate in a contest of ideas without fear of being canceled or shut down. And again, I say to folks on the left, they have their grievances. The folks on the left have their grievances, and I'm happy to talk about those, too, even at this time when front and center is the aftermath of the death of Charlie Kirk. But what they also have, and you'll hear this from conservatives, they've got these institutions. These are dominant cultural institutions in our country. Or as much as the rise of Turning Point and Fox News and other places, these institutions continue to be loom large in the psyche of conservatives, rank and file conservatives who watch the coverage of their movement and feel like second class citizens, if they feel like citizens at all. The left is consumed with Donald Trump, his violation of norms, the policies they disagree with. And that's what politics is about. They don't like this guy's policies. But their failure to understand that part of what powered Donald Trump, part of what powered Charlie Kirk was their willingness to say, we're not going to rely on these liberal cultural institutions. We're going to go over them, around them, through them, in some cases, create our own institutions like Charlie did with his show. But we're also going to inspire tens of millions of people to say, in America, you can be a Trump loving religious conservative who didn't go to an Ivy League school and doesn't live in Boston, Washington, New York, and you can still succeed. And the tragedy of his death has been compounded by the failure of the left to acknowledge these things, what an extraordinary set of achievements he had, against the odds, not just not having gone to college, but against the odds of all of these liberal cultural institutions afraid of losing power to someone like him. Now, as I said, he benefited from the fact that they didn't even know what was happening fully, but they knew enough so that people like Charlie, same demographics, same attitude towards all these institutions, but without his robust talents. A lot of them are now scared. They're afraid. They're worried that his passing, his murder, leaves them in a position without a leader and without the templates that he was building. And what people like the vice president and people around Donald Trump plan to do is to make sure that the template stays. I don't know that there'll be anybody as charismatic as Charlie or as brilliant as he was in understanding how to thrive in the face of hostility from these cultural institutions. But there are plenty of donors and activists and political strategists who are going to give it a try. And I ask for people on the left, even as you fight with them in a spirited way over the ideas and the raw politics that are surely sitting before us. Take a moment and think about why this means so much to people on the right. Take a moment to understand the murder of Charlie Kirk and how it is seen and felt by people whose capacity to fight back for decades was so limited. And with the rise of digital technology and with the rise of the grassroots MAGA movement and with the advent of, as a miracle of the singular soul of Charlie Kirk, there was a period where those folks felt, yeah, we can, we can, we can do this. And now, at least it's as it is done, through Charlie Kirk as a vehicle, they've lost that. So sad personal story, but it is a story of our time. Again, there are grievances on the left that are very legitimate, very legitimate and need to be given voice, too, but they're not like this. This is an asymmetrical difference. One side has controlled these institutions. One side has largely set the rules. What can you say? Where can you work? Who can you be friends with? Where can you have a bank account? What can you put on social media? One side, up until just recently, has controlled all of that. And Charlie, with optimism and confidence and a plan vision, said, nope, we're not going to kowtow to these institutions. In some cases, we'll create our own. In some cases, we'll do it entrepreneurially without big institutions. That's what people in maga, that's what people on the right feel. The loss of someone who would say, with confidence and faith and optimism, we're not going to be held back by that. We will use our brains and hard work to give a new generation of young conservatives the opportunity to speak and worship and love and thrive and grow, get jobs, get home, start families. We will give them an opportunity to do that in America where there isn't an asymmetrical advantage. If you happen to be liberal, that is Charlie's legacy. That is his loss or our loss as a country. And it's a loss of a conservative movement. And that loss must be appreciated by everybody. It's not an opinion. It's a fact. It's a fact. And if people on the left want to ignore it or pretend it didn't happen and pretend they don't see the significance, there's going to be a lot more anger. It doesn't cost anything to admit the truth. People on the left should admit the truth. What gave Charlie Kirk the opportunity to be what he was, as big as he was, was his hard work and his big brain and his faith. But it was also because the kind of walls, the kind of limits, the kind of bigotry that the left set up against people like him is not sustainable. It's lasted a long time in many instances. But we know what the human spirit is like. We know what someone like Charlie with an entrepreneurial mindset can do. And what Charlie said, running parallel to President Trump said, is we are not going to let another generation suffer through cancellation, silencing denial. Wasn't going to let it happen. He's gone now and we'll see if other people can pick up that torch, that baton from him. But I'll say one more time, people on the left, please, please listen to what I'm saying. Understand that this is not just a personal tragedy, tragedy for a family. This is a big moment in American history where someone who did what should have been impossible, made it possible, was killed and can't do it anymore. They're not going back. And there's plenty of people who are still around who have the same vision as Charlie. But the reason there's so much sadness and so much anger is he was a singular force, singular biography, singular accomplishments. And now he's gone. Grateful to you for listening and wonder what you think of what I said. Send me an email nextup halperinmail.com Would love to hear from you. Whether you agree or disagree, you can always find this program on X on Instagram, TikTok have the same handle on all of them at NextUp Halpern. And of course, if you'd like to watch the show and not just listen to it, see if what happened to be wearing on any given day, go to YouTube, YouTube.com NextUp Halperin grateful to you. Next up, Maureen Callahan, my colleague here at the Megyn Kelly Network. We're going to talk a little popular culture. That's next up. All right, so let me now tell you a story about a guy named Leo Grillo. He was on the road and he came across a dog. It was a Doberman who was severely underweight, clearly in a lot of trouble. Leo rescued that Doberman and he gave them a name. He called them Delta. Sadly, though, Delta was just one of many animals that needed help, which inspired Leo to start something called Delta Rescue. It's the world's largest no kill care for life animal sanctuary. They've rescued over the years thousands of dogs and cats and horses from the wilderness and provide each animal with shelter. Love safety and a good home. This dedication and everlasting love to animals, that's Leo's mission and it's Leo's legacy. Delta Rescue relies solely on contributions from people like all of us to do its good work. If you want caring for these animals to be part of your legacy, speak now with your estate planner. Because there are tax, savings and estate planning benefits as well, you can grow your estate while letting your love for animals live well into the future. Check out the estate planning tab on their website to learn more and to speak with an advisor. We call a dog man's best friend for a reason. You can help those who need it most. So please, right now visit deltarescue.org to learn more. Again, go today to deltarescue.org joining me now. And next up, Maureen Callahan. She's a columnist for the Daily Mail and my colleague here on the Megyn Kelly Network, host of the Nerve. Maureen, welcome in. Thank you for joining.
- [32:10]
Maureen Callahan
Thanks for having me, Mark. I'm so happy to be with you today.
- [32:13]
Mark Halperin
The Nerve tell people when it's on and what it is.
- [32:18]
Maureen Callahan
The Nerve is the ultimate non safe space. So any of you unfound troublemakers out there yet who are interested in pop culture and real talk about fake people, join us over at the Nerve. We drop every Tuesday and Friday, 10am Eastern. We have a mini that goes up Saturdays at 10am on YouTube.
- [32:39]
Mark Halperin
So I have a bunch of friends who love your show and listen to it regularly. And so once I learned you'd be able to join us, I got on the group text of, of people who have Nerve and asked them, you know, just, I wanted some quotes to read you. Now how subject are you to feeling embarrassed with modesty, false or otherwise?
- [33:01]
Maureen Callahan
I'm Irish, so we really don't do well with like public praise. But you know what, Mark, I'll don my flak jacket for you and maybe.
- [33:09]
Mark Halperin
Maybe, maybe look, look down with faux modesty. Some, some of these I'm trying to, they're so good. I'll read this one because we'll go literate from the start. She this is about you. She once randomly quoted the poem My Latch Duchess by Robert Browning. And I was forever a fan.
- [33:27]
Maureen Callahan
Oh my God. You know, but this is such a mutual admiration society because like everybody, we hear from so many people who watch the show and they're like, I loved your literary reference. I loved your deep cut about this movie that people don't talk about anymore. So it's like this great hive mind of really interesting people who read Books and consume culture in a really smart, thoughtful way. So I love the Last Duchess quote, my friends.
- [33:55]
Mark Halperin
One of the things they admire about you, as do I, but they're like longtime groupies. They love how literate you are and what a great writer you are, and how although you talk about things that aren't necessarily literary on the show, you pepper your. Not just your commentary, but your kind of analytical frame around a really great education in classics.
- [34:18]
Maureen Callahan
Well, that's very kind. I give credit to the nuns at Sacred Heart Academy. I exited that high school with a college level degree in English and language. Yeah, no, I'm just. I'm a reader and, you know, these words fly out of my mouth. And I'm not trying to use 50 cent words when a 25 cent word will do, but it's, again, it's really gratifying because the people who, the troublemakers, they'll say, I love the vocabulary. I love hearing a word that nobody's used in a while. So it's just fun. It's really fun.
- [34:51]
Mark Halperin
They love the vocabulary. They love the literary references. They also love the grammar police quote. If someone says, between you and I, she will correct them.
- [35:00]
Maureen Callahan
Oh, I'll take him out to the woodshed all day long. I have an inner grammarian.
- [35:05]
Mark Halperin
Yeah, you've written three books, right?
- [35:08]
Maureen Callahan
I've written several books, but the ones I'm most proud of are the two most recent. Being American Predator and Ask Not.
- [35:17]
Mark Halperin
Right. Okay, so again, I'll read this one. You don't need to respond to it, but this person says, I've read all her books. She's a truly serious, genuinely great writer who knows how to tell a gripping story. Guilty as charged. I know that's true, but this is the. This is the quote I might like. The best of the runs 1. The next two ones are going to read you. I'm not even sure exactly what this means, but here's what this person said. She says, the death knell for Vogue magazine was when Anna Wintour put Kim and Kanye on the COVID And that is absolutely accurate. What does that mean?
- [35:47]
Maureen Callahan
Yes, I compared it to John Lennon's famous quote that Elvis Presley really died the day Colonel Tom Parker put him in the United States Army. It sucked all the rock and roll out of him.
- [35:57]
Mark Halperin
The.
- [35:57]
Maureen Callahan
That was the moment, you know, Anna caved to pressure from Kanye, who was then a real force in the culture, and he said he was banging that drum. Put Kim Kardashian on the COVID Give her the legitimacy of your coronation. And she did that. And that was the moment she lost faithful subscribers of many years and even casual onlookers. It was dead, it was done.
- [36:19]
Mark Halperin
And now it's just like a dinosaur wandering down the highway waiting to perish. Is that what's happening?
- [36:26]
Maureen Callahan
It's a husk of itself. They just appointed Chloe Mal, who is the Nepo baby daughter of the actress Candice Bergen and the. The late French filmmaker Louis Mal to run it. And as I said, on the nerve.
- [36:44]
Mark Halperin
To preside over the husk.
- [36:45]
Maureen Callahan
Have you, Mark, ever heard somebody say, you know who's a genius in publishing? Chloe Mao. You know who's a real visionary? People are fighting over Chloe Mal. So I'm sure it augurs well for Vogue.
- [36:58]
Mark Halperin
Maybe. Maybe Anna Wintour sees something in her. I don't and you don't. Now this is, this is a good one. And, and I'll say I understand 75 of this one. Here we go. Maureen always gets it right. Good so far, right. Brace for some profanity. That Barbara Walters was a grade A plus star. That Lena Dunham is both a talented writer and deeply mentally ill. That John F. Kennedy Jr's vanity and recklessness flat out killed his wife and sister in law and that Sarah Jessica Parker always put herself first. Is that all stuff you said?
- [37:32]
Maureen Callahan
Yeah. I don't know if I said it in those exact words, but guilty as charged.
- [37:36]
Mark Halperin
All right. All that's genius. And this is the thing I want to drill down on is you write about and talk about these people with such verve and nerve, but with a. With a honesty and a clear clarity that is just not on offer that many other places. How do you, how do you figure this stuff out? How do you size up somebody like Lena Dunham or Sarah Jessica Parker or John JFK Jr. Just like, how do you do it?
- [38:05]
Maureen Callahan
I'll tell you my trick. I'll tell you my party trick. Nerve. But my party trick, Mark. But it requires a time machine. So as discussed on the show, I grew up the product of a difficult mother and a difficult father. And you learn at a very early age how to climb, clock a room and how to clock a mood and how to know when what somebody's saying isn't lining up with what they're doing or they intend to do. And so it, you know, I consider myself like, you know, on the level frankly of an FBI criminal profiler. I can spot these people in the wild. And I'm also just a huge fan of pop culture. And I think that's where the fun comes in, you know, and the absurdity and the appreciation of the absurdity. And we just did Ryan Reynolds and you know, I talked about him as one of the most dead eyed psychopaths I've ever seen in the public square. And Mark, you wouldn't believe the feedback was like 100%. Oh my God, we can talk about this now, we can say it out loud because you know, he just treated a child journalist on the red carpet like a piece of garbage.
- [39:04]
Mark Halperin
Yeah, I saw that. Let's go back a little bit. You worked for two of the most iconic media properties maybe ever in pop culture. Sassy and mtv. For people who don't know the significance of those two places, like in the days, you know, when they were hot properties, start with Sassy. What was Sassy? Why was it so significant in the, in the kind of the history of magazines and pop culture?
- [39:30]
Maureen Callahan
I mean, I don't think a show like the Nerve exists without a Sassy magazine, which was like the outlier magazine for teenage girls. It was like sort of the alternative rock for teenage girls of magazine publishing. It wasn't Seventeen magazine, it wasn't Young Miss, it wasn't all preppy, clean scrubbed, perfect, popular girls. This was for the girls who were interested in subcultures, who were interested in what was going on in pop culture, but with a sideways take. It spoke very frankly to girls about things that just were not normal conversations in the culture about sexual and drugs and rock and roll, but in a really responsible way, in a fun way. And that magazine was everything to me as a kid. So I just cold called them from like my suburban house on Long Island. I think I wrote them a letter and said, can I come intern for you? And they said yeah. And it was one of the greatest experiences of my, my young life. And then I, I got an internship at MTV as well. And that was back when MTV really was moving the culture. I mean it wasn't just reflecting it, it was pushing it and dictating it. And God, that was so fun. It was before it was really, really corporatized, before it really, you know, moved over to what we used to call the Death Star at 1515 Broadway.
- [40:43]
Mark Halperin
Those two brands, those two brands were the Internet before there was an Internet. Social media, before there was social media and, and such, such an important part of, of that era. Paramount's talking about trying to revive mtv. I never understood why it had to die. Like why couldn't they transition to the digital age and make MTV what it was back then?
- [41:05]
Maureen Callahan
You know, they, in a way they, they, they kind of committed cultural Suicide by. Once they moved out of playing music videos, you know, and, you know, the Internet helped break it too, like, so much. But, you know, they really began sort of their day parts became blocks of scripted programming or reality programming, and they just never could find their footing. I think MTV is gone, truly. I mean, the MTV Video Music Awards aired on Sunday night and nobody even noticed.
- [41:38]
Mark Halperin
Well, the New York Post noticed. If it hadn't been for the New York Post, I wouldn't have known it happened.
- [41:43]
Maureen Callahan
Right, but you knew it happened after the fact, and that's the point.
- [41:46]
Mark Halperin
Good point. Good point. All right, let's talk a little bit more about writing and its connection to what you're doing now. Like, is it. Is it Is the throughline storytelling? How did your career as a great writer has it translated into what you're doing now with your show?
- [42:05]
Maureen Callahan
Well, thank you for that. I'm having so much fun with the Nerve because this is a form of storytelling that is semi new to me, but I love it. It's writing, but I'm writing in a different way and I'm using a different muscle. So instead of purely describing things on the page, we can pull audio and video. And you. When you hear and see people say the things that they hear and say, it's a gut punch like no other. There's no denying it. You know, one of my favorite experiences in writing American Predator, I talked to these really top level FBI agents for like, two years, and one of them said to me his favorite interrogative technique when dealing with a high level suspect was to just show them photos and video and not say a word. Just like, silently slide it across the table. And he said, you cannot lie your way out of a photo. You cannot lie your way out of a video. And so what, it's kind of like, you know, Megan's a real lawyer, but in my mind, I'm like a criminal cultural prosecutor. So I love to think like a lawyer. And, like, in what order am I gonna layer the video and the audio to, like, really build the narrative to a crescendo and a gut punch and, like, leave blood on the floor.
- [43:19]
Mark Halperin
All right, you mentioned Megan, and I'd be remiss without us talking about her since she's brought us on to be part of the vast empire. Here's another quote from my chat group about you. Quote, megyn Kelly respects her, and Megyn Kelly is my queen. Thoughts on that?
- [43:36]
Maureen Callahan
I was about to say, Megyn Kelly, queen mother of all of us beginners here at MK Media. I couldn't agree more. And, you know, when she started having me on her show pretty regularly, I. I never said this to her, but I was like, I am getting, for whatever reason, I don't know why, but I'm getting a master class by one of the best to ever do it. And her method of teaching is kind of Socratic. She leads you along without really you fully being cognizant that she is. She is so talented. And that's why I was so nervous when she was like, why don't you go first out of the gate? I was like, are you kidding me? Oh, my God.
- [44:20]
Mark Halperin
Well, break it down because you're a great student. Of all the things implicated here, what do you think makes Megan so successful?
- [44:29]
Maureen Callahan
First of all, she just has presence. Her presence. She's got, you know, she's got. She's like the whole package, you know. But what? But what? You know, aside from the obvious qualities, like, you know, she's beautiful, she speaks in cogent sentences, she reads everything. She's interested, she's interested. She's one of those rare hosts that actively listens to people and picks up a thread. And so when you're listening, just as a fan, you're always finding yourself engrossed in these conversations that you might never have predicted you would find yourself just engrossed in.
- [45:03]
Mark Halperin
And I would say the same thing about you. It's one of the reasons I find your show so compelling. Is everything you talk about you use? One of my rules. When I write books, I only include interesting things. When I'm reading other friends manuscripts, I'll read something and I'll say, hey, are you really interested in this chapter? No, not really. I thought I had to include it. I'm like, no, no, no. If you're not interested, your reader won't be. I find you choose your subjects of stuff, it's clear you're interested in it. And that just makes it a great experience for the viewer and the listener.
- [45:33]
Maureen Callahan
You know, Mark, I quote Elmore Leonard's 10 rules of writing all the time, and you just named one of them, which is try to leave out the parts that people skip.
- [45:42]
Mark Halperin
Right. It's a good rule, right? It's amazing how frequently it's not adhered to by others.
- [45:48]
Maureen Callahan
It's amazing. You know, it's like biographers. I feel like biographers who adhere to this sort of cradle to grave way of telling a story like that should kind of be abolished. If I were teaching storytelling or biography, I would pick those that, you know, I don't really care about any given subjects. Great, great grandparents and their voyage to these shores. I don't care. I don't care about how their grandparents grew up. Just drop me in the middle of some crucial life event and let's go from there. I like a nonlinear story.
- [46:21]
Mark Halperin
Have you ever read Robert Caro's books?
- [46:24]
Maureen Callahan
Okay, I'm a. I'm a. I'm a girl. No. Okay, so Robert Boys loved to do this, by the way, when I was in my twenties. Carry around Robert Caro is like a mating.
- [46:33]
Mark Halperin
Okay, Robert Cara lives in my building. Like, I see him in the elevator all the time. I think he's an incredible historical figure. He's written all these books. He's written all these books about. About Johnson. My dad worked in the Johnson administration. I cover politics. Johnson's interesting figure. Don't tell my neighbor Bob. I've started his books about Johnson 10 times, and I can't. I can't get into the interesting part because, you know, he moved to Texas. Like, he lived there. He liked one of these writers who needs to see the whole thing himself. But it's just filled with details that if you and I were editing his books, we would have just slashed right out.
- [47:08]
Maureen Callahan
Thank you for saying that. I feel like there's something fundamentally.
- [47:11]
Mark Halperin
I challenge you to read. I challenge you to read the Johnson books. They're impossible.
- [47:15]
Maureen Callahan
Okay, thank you for saying that. I, I. I feel fundamentally broken for not having read the Power Broker. Like, every time I'm on the lie, I'm like, why haven't I read the Power Broker? But now you're absolving me completely. How can you make someone like Lyndon Johnson, who used to, like, excuse my language, but urinate in his sink and, like, pull the power play of, like, sitting on the toilet and having a bowel movement as to humiliate his staff? How can you make that boring?
- [47:44]
Mark Halperin
Exactly. I'll tell you how. You fill it with quotidian details about, like, what the soil is like in, you know, in Texas. I mean, again, I have huge respect for my neighbor Bob, but I do not understand those books. If I were editing, they would have been, like, releases, paperbacks. I would have cut out half of it.
- [48:01]
Maureen Callahan
I have a theory about Robert Caro because I read his book about writing, which he wrote while he's still trying to finish his final volume, of which his editors are politely like, Bob, you're 90. Get real. Let's get back over here to the book we contracted you for. But my theory about him is that it's a form of procrastination It's a very sophisticated, accomplished, elegant form of procrastination. But if you're like, you know what I have to do? I have to move to another state and plunge my hands in the agrarian soil so I can describe like a tiny fraction of this, like that is. That's procrastination to me.
- [48:40]
Mark Halperin
I agree. All right. We're going to take a quick break. We come back, we're going to talk to Maureen about the future of pop culture in America. That's next up. Attention, everyone listening who's 64 years or older got an important announcement to make. The Department of Justice recently sued three major Medicare brokers for claiming they were unbiased while allegedly pushing people into plans that got them the biggest kickbacks. Horrible. It's true. So many insurance agents, they just can't be trusted. But you can't necessarily rely on the government for help and information either. That's why I want you to know about something called Chapter. Chapter was started by people who went through this personally themselves after their own parents were pushed into the wrong Medicare plan by an agent who was more focused on commissions than on good care. Chapter's mission is simple. Give every American the honest, straightforward Medicare advice that they need and they deserve. And here's what makes them different. They're the only Medicare advisor that compares every plan to all across the country, not just a few. That system saves their clients an average of eleven hundred dollars a year. There's really no reason not to call. It's quick, it's easy, and they can review your options in less than 20 minutes. If you're already in the right plan, they'll let you know that. But if there's a better plan, they'll help you switch. This could be one of the most important calls you make this year. Right now, dial £250 and say chapter Medicare to get peace of mind. Again, that's £2 5 0. And say the words chapter, Medicare. All right, next up, more of our conversation with Maureen Callahan, host right here on the Megyn Kelly Network of the Nerve. Maureen, Meghan Markle, you talked before about maybe there's a boy girl split on the Bob Caro books, although I'm with you on those. I don't get the fascination with this lady. Explain why she's such a topic of conversation on your show. In anyone who writes about pop culture, what is the sustained fascination?
- [50:45]
Maureen Callahan
I think the sustained fascination is the difference between. There's multiple prongs here, Mark, but I'll.
- [50:51]
Mark Halperin
Try to thumbnail take your Time. We could do the whole block on this. Because I want the mystery solved.
- [50:55]
Maureen Callahan
Okay. Because I want to convert you to. Because you're missing a spectacle.
- [51:00]
Mark Halperin
Okay, I understand. Please walk me through it.
- [51:03]
Maureen Callahan
First of all, I think everybody has encountered a version of a Meghan Markle. And the worst thing would be a Meghan Markle marrying into your family. So we see this on the stage. She breaks up the British royal family. She's in there for five hot minutes, and she absconds with her husband, her beta royal husband, and comes to the United States. And then she sits with Oprah and starts calling them. She gives an interview and she says, the royals are racist. And I wanted to commit suicide while pregnant with my firstborn royal of the blood. And I asked for help and they said no, basically, go kill yourself. We don't care. Then you have this sort of repeated attempts to become, by dint of merit, by dint of so called talent, something to say in part bring to us as an original piece of content yourself through podcasts, Belly flop, through Netflix specials, Belly flop, next Netflix specials, by the way, in which you're telling the average American, it's very Marie Antoinette in this moment, in this economy, in this global climate of major uncertainty, how to be a loving, warm hostess.
- [52:13]
Mark Halperin
Was she a good actress at all when she was an actress?
- [52:15]
Maureen Callahan
Terrible.
- [52:16]
Mark Halperin
Terrible.
- [52:16]
Maureen Callahan
I'm telling you, Mark, because I'm a better actress, okay? I've only got three roles under my belt, one in outer space. That said, I do not have my SAG card yet. I would say I can pull off a better acting job than one Meghan Markle. If she were a great actress, we'd all love her. We'd all love her.
- [52:34]
Mark Halperin
I want to put together for charity a thing where you and Meghan Markle do the same scene, but whoever's not doing the scene is in like one of those old soundproof booths and see which of you could do a better job. What do you think, Mark?
- [52:45]
Maureen Callahan
Would it be scripted?
- [52:47]
Mark Halperin
Oh, it would be scripted. It would be like, you'd be like. You'd be playing like Ophelia or like, you know, I don't know, Bridget Jones. I don't know, some character where you both would just have the same lines.
- [52:58]
Maureen Callahan
So for a one to one, because I'm gonna. I'm just gonna break. Burst your bubble a little bit. I don't think Meghan Markle would participate in this. I sit on the nerve. If Meghan Markle had a sense of humor. After, after. With Love, Megan with a Y, which I Think demolished her numbers over on Netflix. You would have had somebody reach out and say, you know what, you guys, could we do a version where I participate and we'll just make fun of it all day long? That would have been a winning strategy.
- [53:22]
Mark Halperin
Maybe you didn't ask the right way.
- [53:24]
Maureen Callahan
No, we shouldn't have to ask. I think she should come to us. You're smart. She would come to us.
- [53:29]
Mark Halperin
She switches.
- [53:30]
Maureen Callahan
Sorry, go ahead.
- [53:31]
Mark Halperin
She switches PR firms more often than I switch my work egg clothes.
- [53:35]
Maureen Callahan
Well, you know, she. She had Ari Emanuel, one of the most powerful men in Hollywood ever, take her on in her. In her darkest moment after Spotify dumped her, after Spotify exec Bill Simmons called Harry and Meghan effing grifters after Lemonade dumped her. She was on the bubble at Netflix. Ari Emanuel took her on. And I believe his. He was like, I can fix this. I can turn this ship around. I'm going to turn. You're the Titanic. The iceberg is right here, but I'm going to save you. And he threw up his hands within four months.
- [54:06]
Mark Halperin
Yeah, she switches a lot. All right. I know 2025 has some to go, but just thinking about, like, the rest of this year, 2026. Who's interesting to you in a positive way? What celebrities are you eager to see? What. What's in store for them? Coming up.
- [54:20]
Maureen Callahan
This is a really interesting question. Who am I interested to see? What they do next?
- [54:25]
Mark Halperin
Yeah, in a positive way. I mean, like, most obvious, Taylor and Travis. Does that interest you? No, that's for amateurs that.
- [54:34]
Maureen Callahan
Well, Taylor and Travis. You know what? It's. It's because. Listen, I want to preface this by saying I am a fan of a lot of people and things. Like, I really am. And I usually wind up bringing them in sideways into some kind of a conversation. But the problem for me with Taylor and Travis is I feel I can't escape it. It's not a choice. I'm being forced to consume it. Everywhere I look, I see them. And they say that this wedding is going to be private and small and maybe. But is people going to get the first photos? I think they are probably.
- [55:06]
Mark Halperin
All right, so you don't care about them. Who are you looking forward to seeing? Like, what's. What's in store? Anybody?
- [55:12]
Maureen Callahan
I'm trying to think. This is. I wish I had thought about this question really hard. What's coming up in the fall? I mean, like, I'm into all the. All the big fall books, all the big fall releases. So Matthew McConaughey has another book coming out. I'm very interested in that I find.
- [55:27]
Mark Halperin
Fiction or nonfiction? Fiction or nonfiction?
- [55:30]
Maureen Callahan
I think it's a book of poetry.
- [55:32]
Mark Halperin
McConaughey. Poetry the World.
- [55:33]
Maureen Callahan
Awesome. I love him as an actor. Oh, Ethan Hawke. I'm a big fan of Ethan Hawke. And he's got a new show coming out on fx, I think it's called the Lowdown, and it looks really funny and kind of a sideways thing. I love his sensibility. I think he's so talented.
- [55:48]
Mark Halperin
That guy's a legit actor. I agree with you on that.
- [55:50]
Maureen Callahan
Yeah. Yeah.
- [55:53]
Mark Halperin
All right. What is in store, you think about my realm? Politics. Is there anybody who's in the national stage, might run for president that interests you, or you just think they're all a bunch of boring stiffs?
- [56:04]
Maureen Callahan
Oh, let's get ready for Cory Booker, 20, 28, newly engaged, got engaged. We just got engaged, you know, And Pritzker, who's on the jab, you know, it's all these sort of like, surface things that tell you like, somebody's really gonna make a run for it. And it always tells you, like, they're not really people of great substance, I think, because is there anybody like.
- [56:25]
Mark Halperin
Is like Wes Moore or Gavin Newsom, are they compelling as pop figures or.
- [56:29]
Maureen Callahan
No, Westmore I think is, but I don't. You know, we'll have to get to know him as a. As a country a little bit better. I wonder if he. You know, everybody's always looking for the second incarnation of Barack Obama, who is really an original, a true original. I don't know, is he the real deal or is he kind of one of those guys that the media and the party props up is like the next great hope and the next great black politician. You know, they tried it with Harold Ford and he flamed out. Cory Booker thinks it's him. It's not. You know, his height was at. Do you remember that show Brick City that ran on Sundance?
- [57:05]
Mark Halperin
Uh huh.
- [57:05]
Maureen Callahan
That was like, that was supposed to propel Cory Booker. Like, Cory Booker was getting around the time of Brick City, which he was the mayor of Newark, and in a very Robert Cara Way, a guy who came from a nice background, moved into the projects. He really had a sense of, like, spectacle. And so Brick City was all about that. And then like every five minutes around that time, he was getting another profile in the New Yorker. But he still hasn't gotten airborne, you know, so I don't know. What do you think of Westmoreland?
- [57:32]
Mark Halperin
I mean, I think he's, he's, he's I don't say he's playing the role, but he's a nice guy. I used to be on TV with him a lot. I spend time with him. He's a nice guy. He's, he's a smart guy. I just don't know that he's quite at the place you'd want to imagine him to be to control the nuclear weapons.
- [57:49]
Maureen Callahan
Who do you think for 2028, for the dad that it's going to be, or who's like. Or a few who are like real contenders?
- [57:56]
Mark Halperin
No idea. Literally, it's the weakest field I've ever seen in either party. You know, my, my great, great grandfather back in Poland was the tallest man in his village and he was 5 foot 8 because the other people in the village were. The other men were 5 foot 6. So I don't know who's 5 foot 8 in this field, but it's hard to say because, you know, normally when you're thinking about strong presidential candidates, they're 626364. These are not, this is not a distinguished field. So I don't know who will emerge.
- [58:27]
Maureen Callahan
You know what that makes me think of? You know, who they talk a lot about? Yeah, the Rock.
- [58:32]
Mark Halperin
Not gonna happen.
- [58:33]
Maureen Callahan
When you said tallest man, I went right to the Rock.
- [58:36]
Mark Halperin
Not gonna happen. Trump has created this impression that like, oh, any celebrity can just walk in and win the nomination. I just think all. Stephen A. Smith, the Rock. I just, I don't see it. I just don't see. I think it's, it's harder than it looks. What are the two best stories you've ever covered as a journalist? Like, what were the ones where it's like just a thrill of a lifetime. You tell stories like your Broadway Danny Rose.
- [59:00]
Maureen Callahan
Oh, wow. I mean, okay, so ask. Not really was the book of a lifetime. The book of a lifetime. And then, you know, I did this story and it was gonna be, it was gonna be what we call the Wood, the front page of the Post. And then a Scalia died and it got bumped and it was a heartbreaker. But I did this story. It took me months.
- [59:21]
Mark Halperin
The Scalia family felt the same way, by the way, I'm sure.
- [59:26]
Maureen Callahan
But it was, it was a, it was a, it was an expose of what? You know, there are these private contractors who supply, who breed and supply dogs to the United States military. And these are, these dogs are the elite and they are sent to Afghan. They were at the time sent to Afghanistan and Iraq. Bomb sniffing dogs. But they, they do a whole suite of of stuff out in the field, in war. And they come back to the United States and they bond greatly with their human handlers, the servicemen and women. And many of these veterans come back and they have the silent injuries, the trauma, the PTSD that will never go away. And the one thing that can really heal them is being reunited with their service animal. And there was this contractor out in, down in South Carolina, I believe I went down there. They were taking these dogs off market and selling them to private citizens who never should have had them because they're trained to kill. And that was one of my favorites.
- [60:33]
Mark Halperin
How'd you report that out? Was that like undercover work?
- [60:36]
Maureen Callahan
I got a tip from somebody. I got a tip because I've been writing about veterans for a while. I was very interested in that, and I remain very interested in the plight of, of military veterans in the United States and how difficult the system makes it for them to come back home. Great book, by the way. Talking about what I'm a fan of. Remember the Good Soldiers. David. Who's the author of that? David?
- [60:59]
Mark Halperin
I'm gonna have to Google. I know the book you mean though. And in fact, I can even envision the COVID in my mind. Hold on.
- [61:04]
Maureen Callahan
And they adapted it into a film with Miles Teller, the Good Soul.
- [61:09]
Mark Halperin
The Mile Teller part. I don't know. David Finkel.
- [61:11]
Maureen Callahan
David Finkel. And then he did a follow up book. That book was a. That book was so important and so readable and he, he followed five guys, I think, who, you know, came back and it was sort of informed by that. It feels like they, they give their all to the country in service and risk their lives and their mental health and they come back broken in many, many ways and the system is built to break them again, you know, and it's not spoken about enough in the culture. And if I ever found myself in a position to do anything about it, I think that might be number one on my, on my agenda, you know, fixing, fixing what's broken for better.
- [61:47]
Mark Halperin
Put some spotlight on that to get better results. Yeah, that's a good story. When you worked at sase, what was the best story you covered?
- [61:55]
Maureen Callahan
My favorite story was I was, I was still a teenage girl. I was about 17 or 18. There had been massive, massive floods in the Midwest. And of course the hardest hit people are always the poorest. So I wanted to just go down there and find somebody, a teenage girl who had lost everything. And my editor said, sure, go ahead. And I did it. And it was so rewarding, just not in the reporting of it. And the being there and the experiencing it and these people opening their home and their hearts to me, what remained of their home, which was a trailer. But then writing it and realizing that I could do it, you know, I could do it, I could tell a story that that would matter in some way.
- [62:44]
Mark Halperin
How did you find the family you profiled?
- [62:48]
Maureen Callahan
I think if I remember, I just made some calls. I just made some phone calls and found. Found someone who was willing, took a photographer, went down there and you know, I feel like, I feel like antediluvian, not to, you know, floods. But it was before the Internet. It was before we all had a phone and could just go GPS ourselves. You know, you gotta have a paper map and like rent a car and drive somewhere and make, you know, on roads that were unmarked or flooded out. But it was. I really enjoyed it. I really loved it.
- [63:18]
Mark Halperin
Yeah. And if you had to write a magazine story now, like a 4000 word magazine story about anything you wanted for, say, I don't know, Esquire, does that exist? Esquire?
- [63:30]
Maureen Callahan
Yeah, it still exists. Yeah.
- [63:31]
Mark Halperin
Yeah. What would your topic be?
- [63:34]
Maureen Callahan
My dream.
- [63:36]
Mark Halperin
I'm paying you $80 a word.
- [63:38]
Maureen Callahan
Oh, well, thanks.
- [63:39]
Mark Halperin
Yeah.
- [63:40]
Maureen Callahan
I'm going to maybe see if I can move you up a little bit. No. Okay. So I've long been fascinated by. And I'm a fan of by the Way. Like I go to see his movies in the movie theater when they come out, Tom Cruise. And I've always had this working headline that maybe a little corny now, but it would be like, you know, what makes Sammy run the famous book? What makes Tom Cruise. What makes Tom Cruise has no one.
- [64:06]
Mark Halperin
Done that makes sense.
- [64:08]
Maureen Callahan
And I would want to do it in the spirit of the famous, famous. Was it Gaetalyse who wrote the piece Frank Sinatra has a Cold.
- [64:17]
Mark Halperin
Yeah.
- [64:18]
Maureen Callahan
Where he never got real access to Frank as promised. So he had to do a right around by talking to the people closest to Frank in his circle. And he actually got closer to Frank Sinatra doing it that way than if he had had unfettered access.
- [64:33]
Mark Halperin
Right. Brilliant. You know what makes Tom Cruise satisfies my number one rule for book titles and titles of magazine stories, which is must have double or triple entendre.
- [64:46]
Maureen Callahan
Mark, are you working on a new book?
- [64:48]
Mark Halperin
I'm not working on a new book, which is a good segue to thing I wanted to ask you about next. Like books, as you know, are the hardest thing. They're harder than anything else in media and. And it's just like there's too much Other stuff, like doing this show and that two way and the other stuff I'm doing, like, I have literally 19, I have a list, a physical list. I'm old fashioned. 19 books I'd like to write, but I just can't imagine, yeah, I just can't imagine breaking off to do them.
- [65:13]
Maureen Callahan
You know, would you ever like hire a, hire a co writer and, you know, just sort of get your ideas out on the page, paper out, period?
- [65:22]
Mark Halperin
I would, I would under the right circumstances. But even then, my philosophy of books is 50% writing, 50% promoting marketing, because it's silly to write a book if you can't sell it. And, and I, I have to, I'd have to do that myself. I'll tell you that, I'll tell you the, the easiest of the 19 to do, which I really want to do. And I, I'm confident it would be a huge seller. Since I started covering Trump 10 years ago, people are always saying to me, sometimes famous people, sometimes like a guy I meet on an airplane, I got a great Trump story for you. So it's, it's, it's like 50 Trump stories. Like you say, sometimes the people would be anonymous, mostly they'd be named. Some of them would be a page, some of them would be 30 pages. But it just, it's just the 50 best Trump stories, you know, that everybody has. And I've already got like, probably 30 of them, you know, how would you describe them?
- [66:13]
Maureen Callahan
Are they funny? Are they surprising?
- [66:15]
Mark Halperin
Are they that, that's the thing. It's like, it's, it's everything. Some of them are really funny. Some of them make Trump look great. Some of them make him Trump look horrible. Some of them are emotional. Some of them have like O. Henry twists at the end. They're, they're just great. They're.
- [66:29]
Maureen Callahan
Because, Mark, you got to write this book. I want to read this book.
- [66:32]
Mark Halperin
I know, I really do. And like I said, of the 19 or so, it's the easiest one. But I just, it just, first I got to get a book deal that makes it worth my while and then I have to, you know, you know, you know what it's like. Books are like, they're like a thing by this. And most of the stories I've just collected, you know, ad hoc. Two of them are so newsy that I know the book would sell because like I'd come on your show and break the news of one of the two stories and I don't know where would I break the other one, maybe 60 minutes. Like they're just got to give it.
- [67:00]
Maureen Callahan
To the Queen Mother. You got to give it to Emma.
- [67:03]
Mark Halperin
Of course she'd be offered first rights for all possibilities. But it's. It's a. It's a great book if I can get it done, but I just don't know that I will. What book would you do if you did another book right now? I'll give you a $2 million advance.
- [67:15]
Maureen Callahan
The book I really do is foremost in my mind is I've talked about this on my show, but at my dad's funeral about a year and a half ago, a family member I'm close to gave me a piece of information about my father that was so explosive. And it's not what you would think. It's not like the cliche thing, like secret double life. No, no, no, no, no. It was so explosive that. And by the way, before my dad died, I said. He said he had served in Vietnam. He said, I think I'm going to give all my, like, recordings from when I was there and my letters and all of that to. To so and so. And I said, I really wish you wouldn't. And he said, why? And I said, because I think I'm going to write about you someday. And he said, okay. And he gave me the gift that very few people who are unlucky enough to have a writer born into the family would give you. He never said, if you find anything related to X, Y or Z, please don't write about it. So my cousin tells me this thing at his wake, and everybody else had pretty much filed out. And I remember turning to my father in his open casket and silently saying, thank you. Thank you.
- [68:20]
Mark Halperin
Well, you're leaving us with a cliffhanger because you're not telling us what it is.
- [68:23]
Maureen Callahan
Correct? I can't tell you what it is. Okay, but.
- [68:25]
Mark Halperin
So it's a cliffhanger episode.
- [68:27]
Maureen Callahan
It's. And it would involve investigation, investigating a crime.
- [68:33]
Mark Halperin
Waba dabba dabba uber.
- [68:34]
Maureen Callahan
But, you know, it just. It sort of blew open also in my mind, like, so many things about his life suddenly fell into place for me once because my father was so good looking and charismatic and funny and smart. I always thought, why didn't he have a bigger life? He absolutely could have had a huge life. And we realized he wanted to go into politics. He wanted to go into national politics.
- [69:00]
Mark Halperin
You got to do this book.
- [69:02]
Maureen Callahan
This thing stopped him from that.
- [69:04]
Mark Halperin
All right, I'm going to make one guess. And if you don't want to answer, the poker face will say it all. Does it Involve Jimmy Hoffa. No, no, does not.
- [69:14]
Maureen Callahan
No, it does not involve, you know, there's a little Mafia connection in the family. I will say that, but no, it does not.
- [69:19]
Mark Halperin
I don't know that Hoff had anything to do with the mob. That's your position, not mine.
- [69:22]
Maureen Callahan
Well, I think the mob took him out, okay?
- [69:25]
Mark Halperin
I just don't.
- [69:25]
Maureen Callahan
You don't think the mob took him out?
- [69:27]
Mark Halperin
Maybe I just have enough legal complexity in my life now to not pick a fight with the Mafia, but don't.
- [69:32]
Maureen Callahan
You think the people who took him out are dead?
- [69:34]
Mark Halperin
I guess. I don't know. I've always wondered about that one. I'm not usually interested in, like, these historical whodunits. Like, I don't care if somebody Oswald lockpacked it alone. Like, whatever.
- [69:42]
Maureen Callahan
You don't.
- [69:43]
Mark Halperin
I mean, someone wanted to tell me, like, you know, for free. But I don't. Like, I don't spend a lot of time thinking about it, and I don't care if I know or not. But I do want to know what happened to Hoffa. I'm very interested in that. I don't know why, but I am.
- [69:53]
Maureen Callahan
Where do you think his body is?
- [69:56]
Mark Halperin
Jersey.
- [69:57]
Maureen Callahan
Everybody thinks Jersey. Everybody.
- [69:59]
Mark Halperin
It's under the Meadowlands. It's under the Meadowlands. 100%. All right. Maureen Callahan's program here on the Megyn Kelly network is called the Nerve. Why is it called the Nerve, Maureen?
- [70:10]
Maureen Callahan
It's got, as you said, your criteria for a book. Multiple meanings.
- [70:15]
Mark Halperin
Exactly.
- [70:16]
Maureen Callahan
People out here have the nerve to pretend they're one thing and they're another, and we've got the nerve to say what's what.
- [70:23]
Mark Halperin
Yep.
- [70:23]
Maureen Callahan
And we hold our nerve.
- [70:25]
Mark Halperin
Our show started roughly the same time, and as I was trying to name my show, they told me what your show was, and I would. I did like a. I did like a Seinfeld Newman thing. I thought, ah, Maureen. She's already come up with a good title.
- [70:35]
Maureen Callahan
Put pressure on me of your Newman.
- [70:38]
Mark Halperin
Exactly. For just. Just for titling our shows. All right, very grateful to Maureen Callahan again. She writes for the Daily Mail, where I write occasionally, too, but not as well, and I make dramatic. Larry's also the host of the Nerve. New episodes drop Tuesdays and Fridays on YouTube and, of course, wherever you get your podcasts. And you can follow Maureen on Henerve on every social platform ever invented, with the possible exception of MySpace. Maureen, very grateful to you for making time look forwarding to going to each other's book parties.
- [71:07]
Maureen Callahan
Same. Thank you for having me, Mark. This was really, really fun.
- [71:11]
Mark Halperin
Thank you. All right, that's it for today's program. Be sure to subscribe and download NextUp wherever you get your podcasts. Not as good a name as the Nerve, but whatever. You'll always know then what's coming Next up. Grateful to you for being here and we will see you. Next up.
- [71:32]
ExxonMobil Announcer
Can lighter structures really be stronger? Yes, they can. ExxonMobil is helping advance American industrial innovation with Proxima Systems, enabling a lighter and stronger alternative to traditional rebar while lowering greenhouse gas emissions. To help build a more efficient construction industry. With sustainability in mind, ExxonMobil, let's deliver.
- [71:59]
Public Service Announcer
Did you know 39% of teen drivers admit to texting while driving? Even scarier, those who text are more likely to speed and run red lights. Shockingly, 94% know it's dangerous, but do it anyway. As a parent, you can't always be in the car, but you can stay connected to their safety with Greenlight Infinity's driving reports. Monitor their driving habits, see if they're using their phone, speeding and more. These reports provide real data for meaningful conversations about safety. Plus, with weekly updates, you can track their progress over time. Help keep your teens safe. Sign up for Greenlight infinity@Greenlight.com podcast.