← The Nerve with Maureen Callahan
The Nerve with Maureen Callahan
Meghan and Harry's Nanny Search, SJP's Show Reboot Plan, and the Psychology of People Pleasers
01:14:53
Maureen is joined by Entertainment Reporter, Kinsey Schofield and together they pounce on Meghan and Harry's Nanny search, the criteria they listed, the rounds of interviews required, and Meghan's failing wine venture. They also take a swipe at two of The Nerve's repeat offenders, SJP and astronaut Gayle King, and how both of them are white knuckling their dwindling moments in the spotlight. Then Maureen sits down with Clinical Psychotherapist and Author of "Are You Mad At Me?," Meg Josephson, to discuss the origins of behavioral patterns that we carry into adulthood and ways to mitigate them. Masa Chips: Get 25% off your first order | Use code MAUREEN at https://MASAChips.com/MAUREEN Pique: Get 20% off your order plus a FREE frother & glass beaker with this exclusive link: https://piquelife.com/THENERVE Aware House: Visit https://awarehouseshop.com/discount/THENERVE & use code THENERVE for 15% off your first order.
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- [00:01]
Maureen Callahan
If you could hear love, what would it sound like? Son, can we talk about your drinking? Yeah, Dad, I think we should. Helping those closest to you think about their excessive drinking. Maybe that's what love sounds like. More@rethinkthedrink.com An OHA initiative. Are you ready to get spicy? These Doritos golden Sriracha aren't that spicy. Sriracha sounds pretty spicy to me. Um, a little spicy, but also tangy and sweet. Maybe it's time to turn up the heat. Or turn it down. It's time for something that's not too spicy. Try Doritos Golden Sriracha. Spicy but not too spicy. Hey, everyone. Welcome to your Friday edition of the Nerve. We are still feeling the effects of our Irish wake for. And just like that, we have updates that prove our theory of the case has been right all along. So we'll be sharing and discussing those. And we have just a great show for you today. I, I, I, I have to mention, a couple of hours ago, as we were prepping the show, we got a benediction of sorts because outside of Nerve headquarters, guess what was right outside making ungodly amounts of noise? An actual wood chipper. An actual wood chipper. The noise was driving me so crazy. I went outside across the road and I was like, what is this? It was a wood chipper. I said, keep going, keep going. Spirit animal, okay? Or spirit machine, as it were. Right? So let's take that as a sign from above. You know, our inaugural person was one Sarah Jessica Parker. And oh my God, if we don't have updates that are going to blow your mind about what she's up to. Also, we've got Kinsey Schofield of the Must catch. Kinsey Schofield unfiltered pod. And she is here with a Sussex exclusive and lots of of behind the scenes royal intel. We have celeb updates, mortifications, author Meg Josephson on her new book, which we are fascinated with over here. It's called are you mad at me? Nonfiction. And all of you who resonated with Professor Sam's talk about growing up in difficult homes, you're gonna love this segment. Plus, the best part of any given nerve, your emails and a woodshed update. So I want to introduce you guys to a favorite of mine. I've discussed them before, the masa chips. Now, these chips taste markedly different than any other chip on the market. So here's the deal. Up until the 1990s, all chips and fries were cooked in beef tallow. Not so seed oils. Because Big companies figured out that seed oils are cheaper, but they're also highly processed and now they make up 20% of the average American's daily calories. Are you kidding me? So that's why we here at the Nerve are excited to tell you about Masa chips, which uses beef tallow. They are doing things differently and they're also made with just three ingredients, organic corn, sea salt, and again, the 100% grass fed beef tallow. That's it. No seed oils, no junk. And let me tell you, they are so good. They are crunchier, they are tastier, and my, my ultimate test, they do not break apart in your guac. They leave you feeling light, satisfied and energized. There's no crashing, there's no bloating. So Masa is what chips should be. Give yourself a treat, taste the difference. You'll never go back. Masa chips are beloved by tens of thousands of customers and they have been endorsed by industry leading health and nutrition experts. If you are ready to give Masa a try, go to masachips.com maureen and use code MAUREEN for 25% off your first order. That's masachips.com maureen, and code MAUREEN for 25 percent off your first order. Okay, first, we want to begin on a, on a solemn note, we want to offer our condolences here at the Nerve to Kelly Clarkson. On Thursday it was announced that her ex husband, Brandon Blackstock passed away after a three year battle with cancer. They have two children together, an 11 year old daughter, a nine year old son. And in March, Kelly stepped away from her eponymous daytime talk show for nearly two weeks. And she never said why while, you know, other celebs filled in for her and she had only given personal reasons. And you know, this I think is kind of another reminder. You know, we're all guilty of it in the media, we all do it, but it kind of, it's reminiscent of when Catherine, Princess of Wales, disappeared for a while and all those rumors went around and everybody was sort of agog. Where's Kate? Where's Kate? Turned out she was dealing with something very personal and serious and same for Kelly. So our heartfelt condolences go out to her and her family and we only hold the best for you. Okay, now back to our regularly scheduled programming. We begin with one of our favorite guests, Kinsey Schofield of Kinsey Schofield Scofield Unfiltered. You can find her on YouTube and I am thrilled to appear on that show twice every month. If you haven't Already head over to Kinsey's YouTube channel. Be sure to like and subscribe. She has got some of the best royal sources going. And today she is going to share with us at the Nerve some exclusive goings on at Camp Sussex where it seems help is needed in more ways than one. Hi, Kinsey.
- [06:30]
Kinsey Schofield
I haven't even told you everything because I wanted to see the look on your face when I shared some of these details with you.
- [06:37]
Maureen Callahan
I can't wait. I can't wait now. And I know, I know the restraint that takes from you because you love nothing more than shooting over like Golden Nuggets scandal.
- [06:48]
Kinsey Schofield
You get a text. Oh, by the way, this happened. This happened. Yeah, well, yes, basically, I'll tell you that I have a source at a California employment company that told me that Harry and Megan are looking for a new nanny. This is something that they've been struggling with for quite some time because there is a churn which we've discussed in the past of domestic help. And this nanny position is apparently especially hard. So we actually have that ad we can break down together.
- [07:22]
Maureen Callahan
Let's do it. I believe you behind my back perhaps got it somehow into the hands of my producers because they mocked this thing up in Nerve style. So it's we royal pains need help in calligraphy. Montecito, California. Easy apply on LinkedIn? We don't know. I will read said description and then you tell me, Kinsey, your thoughts? This is your scoop, by the way. This is amazing. This is part of the actual ad. This is an extraordinary opportunity for a nanny who brings warmth, flexibility, discretion, and a true helping spirit to everything they do. Responsibilities include only the morning and evening routines, school drop offs and pickups, the children's laundry and tidying of their spaces, coordinating play dates and after school activities, managing the children's calendar, supporting with bath and bedtime as needed. Flexibility 24 7. Yeah, can you translate that to English for us regular people speak?
- [08:35]
Kinsey Schofield
I mean, I think it's like I might not actually ever see my children. You know, somebody else might be doing all the heavy lifting. But here, according to my source, the current nanny, because they say that they're keeping this current nanny that they've had for five years. They say that in this ad, Megan mentions that they have had a full time nanny for five years that's had a baby and wants to spend more time with the baby. This person's going to transition, allegedly. Megan. I should say this person's going to transition to almost a house manager. And if you go back and Listen to the Jamie Kern Lima interview. Meghan Markle talks about having a nanny for five years. They say five years in this ad that she absolutely loves. My sources tell me that this current nanny of five years has been trying to transition to house manager forever, but they keep. So she can't. Once the agency. Listen to this. Once the agency creates a list of potential hires, you meet with that nanny. Then you have to meet with another one of Megan's assistants. These are two separate auditions. Interviews, but auditions, then auditions for. You'll understand why in a second. Then you sign an NDA which grants you access to Harry and Megan. So this is the third interview. The agency has specifically been instructed to hide Harry and Megan's identity from the applicant, but does not do that because of Megan's reputation. So they whisper to the nanny, guess who you're about to meet. You know, they just want to make sure you're comfortable working with Megan because of her reputation. So the nanny has to pretend that she is surprised when she meets Harry and Megan. She has to go. I mean, can you believe that? She has to pretend she didn't know who she was talking to? Because the agency has been instructed not to tell the person that it's Harry and Meghan that they're potentially meeting with.
- [10:31]
Maureen Callahan
You know, now that Meghan is desperately trying to get Netflix to bite on any idea that she possibly has. Make this the reality show a hundred percent. Make this half the Hunger Games, half of, like, you know, what. Her briefcase game. Right. What's behind, like, which employers? Behind the door.
- [10:49]
Kinsey Schofield
Yeah.
- [10:50]
Maureen Callahan
I love the idea, first of all, that this nanny's been trying to get out of the gig for five years, about as long as she's had it, allegedly. I love this notion that a woman who's just given birth to a newborn is going to take on the easier job of managing the entire household. That makes a lot of sense, Megan. Thirdly.
- [11:10]
Kinsey Schofield
Go ahead.
- [11:11]
Maureen Callahan
Just one thing. I picture the search for a nanny as, like, the poem, My Last Duchess. Do you know that poem?
- [11:19]
Kinsey Schofield
No. Please.
- [11:20]
Maureen Callahan
Well, it's an aristocratic man who is showing his latest young love interest portraits of my last duchess. And the implication is there are, like, 10 last duchesses, and each one was, like, murdered and is hidden up in the attic somewhere. So you're gonna be the next duchess. That's the. The last duchess. And I didn't even put together that I'm talking about a duchess, but it's all full circle. So I'm sorry. Go on.
- [11:48]
Kinsey Schofield
It's my understanding that this nanny is Just like Meghan and that they love each other and they're clones of each other. So hide your kids, hide your wife. Like if that's something you can deal with and this person would be managing you, then go forth. We wish you Godspeed, we wish you the best of luck. But I think that that sounds like an absolute nightmare from. From Hades. And don't forget a few weeks ago I told you about the insider that worked for Megan and has worked for Megan since she moved to California. And they said I spent a lot of time with Megan. The way she treated me can only be described as dehumanizing. So I do think that we are seeing a cycle much worse than we actually report in the mainstream when it comes to Harry and Meghan's employees.
- [12:42]
Maureen Callahan
You know, I'm just going to put it out there again for any refugees From Camp Montecito, NDAs or not, we will hide your identities. You know, like you're a thief in the night. You can come over here. There will be a book done someday. Someday about just. I mean, she's going to make Joan Crawford look like Mother Teresa.
- [13:04]
Kinsey Schofield
You know, no wire hangers.
- [13:06]
Maureen Callahan
No, I don't even think any velvet lined hangers. You know, I don't know what the next level up is, but it's been quite a week for these two. I mean, Kinsey, I'm so happy you're here because first of all, we've learned this week that her second launch of her wine is a failure. Her as ever wine, it has yet to sell out and these bottles contain less alcohol than the original launch did. Secondly, she. Her 44th birthday went by with really not much fanfare except for an as ever social media post saluting the woman behind it all who does it all again. If by darkening all of our psychological doorsteps, sure. Harry was made the announcement that he had resigned. You know, I think again, code just my opinion code for show in the door From Santa Bale, the charity he co founded in memory of his mother. The name in English translates to forget me not. And it seems that they want to forget him as quickly as possible. Of course his camp issued a statement saying, you know, that Harry was in some substance, you know, my paraphrasing aggrieved. Couldn't believe he's the latest victim of this latest injustice and he still wants to get back in with the royals. Did I cover everything?
- [14:30]
Kinsey Schofield
I feel like you did a pretty solid job. I mean, the Charity Commission when it came to the Senate Bali investigation said, look, both parties did a terrible job here of allowing this war to spill into the media. But Harry threw the first punch. Don't forget, it was Harry that ran to the Times and said, it's almost as if he was trying. This was a strategy to try. And they've done this before. Samantha Markle's taking Meghan to court. I think it's September 9th, because she says that they've done this to them. They try to discredit people in the media so that the media won't listen to them in the future. So Harry, according to Samantha Markle, Meghan's half sister. So Harry went to the times and said, Dr. Sophie Shandaka has done an awful job. I have no other, you know, there's nothing I can do but step down. This is months ago. And Dr. Sophie Shandaka said, all right, in response to that, I'm going to do the media rounds and I'm going to tell everyone about all of the threatening text messages you sent me regarding your wife, Meghan Markle, allegedly. I'm going to talk about how I had planned a very smooth running polo charity event that you hijacked by bringing on Netflix cameras. So I had to find a completely different venue. Your wife tells me she's not coming. Shows up on the arm of Serena Williams. Havoc, absolute havoc is wreaked on this charity event. And Dr. Sophie Shandaka does the media rounds, too. And the Charity Commission says, hey, you know, we can't investigate individual accusations of bullying. So do we see bullying and racism as a whole? No, we don't see that. But Dr. Sophie Shandaka said, that's fine because I'm going to find an investigator that will tell you that Prince Harry and his team and his group were bullies to me. She feels like they were racist. She's accused them of racism in some way.
- [16:27]
Maureen Callahan
I love it.
- [16:28]
Kinsey Schofield
Yeah. And so this isn't over. She's. She's saying, I'm going to continue with this investigation. If the Charity Commission won't do it, then I will find somebody that will and will clear me and will potentially hold him accountable.
- [16:42]
Maureen Callahan
Well, I wanted to transition from the Sussexes seeking help, which I think applies in more way, more ways than one, to another nerve target who I believe really does need to seek professional help. And that is one Sarah Jessica Parker. You know, much as Meghan Markle has allegedly reportedly been shown the door by Netflix, you know, when it was announced on Friday of last week, so one week ago today, that, and just like that had been canceled. Sarah and her showrunner, Michael Patrick King put these ornate pronouncements onto their social media. In Michael Patrick King's case, HBO Max's official site, basically framing this as their own auto generated decision, their creative, creative decision that they had told all the story they could and now was the time to wrap up. Ah. Until in comes reports this one from Radar. The headline I die seething. Okay, first of all, I believe this source is Sarah Jessica Parker. Just look at the headline SATC Icon Icon. Sarah Jessica Parker fumes over. And just like that, cancellation quote. After all the money she made them, the money, quote, they told her, they told her it was being canceled, quote. But it wasn't a conversation. A top source sjp, my opinion tells Rob Shooter it was we're done. No discussion, no collaboration, just final. And Parker was blindsided. And what kind of creative genius can you be if you're blindsided by this? According to Rob Shooter, Parker had already started working on storylines and casting for the show's fourth season. As surmised here at the Nerve quote, she thought they were building something long term. HBO is still like, we've had enough, thank you. Goodbye. A following radar report says she's not giving up. She's pitching everything from a spin off to a limited series over at Netflix and Amazon. I don't know how, I don't know how. HBO doesn't own this ip. And the quote, she's turning heartbreak into Hustle, which is another adaptation of one of my least favorite phrases in the culture, pain into purpose.
- [19:06]
Meg Josephson
Kinsey.
- [19:07]
Maureen Callahan
You got it. We haven't talked about this at all, so I need to know all of your thoughts on this. Just debacle for the ages.
- [19:14]
Kinsey Schofield
Well, first of all, you're so right. Heartbreak into Hustle is such a mechanism that I puked in my mouth the second it came out of yours. Look, I think that HBO is actually pretty savvy when it comes to listening to the audience and reacting. The Gilded Age accidentally aired in Spanish last week and all of their social media was about how they'd messed up. When they changed back from HBO Max to hbo, they acknowledged that they'd screwed up pretty badly. In a recent interview with sj, she said, kristen Davis tries to tell me what you guys are saying about the show on social media. She tries to tell me about the memes and I tell her, shut up. I don't want to hear that stuff.
- [19:53]
Maureen Callahan
She, I don't believe her.
- [19:54]
Kinsey Schofield
I mean, can you believe that?
- [19:56]
Maureen Callahan
But no, I don't believe her. The woman who posted a three minute obit to herself and her psychologically entwined, enmeshed sicko psycho character, Carrie Bradshaw. Three minutes on Instagram. Okay, you're telling me this woman, look at her face. It snatched to within an inch of her life. She doesn't follow her own press. She gave an interview to the New Yorker, which we went through the other day. It was like a 31 page profile. She had the profiler, the journalist Rachel Syme come up to the editing booth with her and Michael Patrick King, where they were going over every single frame of the forthcoming episode with forensic eyes like they were examining a crime scene. But sjp, oh, no, I don't. I don't look at anything. I have no ego. I don't look, I don't listen. Ow.
- [20:42]
Kinsey Schofield
She was saying she didn't listen to the online negativity or she doesn't want to see the online comments, the online negativity about it. And to that I'd say kind of screw you. You've allowed us into these characters lives for decades. We fell in love with them. We are invested in them. Or were. I couldn't sit through this show. I'd rather die in a fire. But I loved Sex and the City. Of course, I had the Kerry Kinsey necklace. You know, I was so the Patricia Field everything. You know, I think that that's so offensive to say you're not going to listen to the audience and you don't care what the audience truly thinks. They were aware that we loathed this reboot. And you know, SJP says she didn't care. She was happy with the direction it was taking. It was foul. It wasn't even fun at all. They were jokes of themselves. And yeah, agree with you that this came out of nowhere and that she was prop. She probably had no idea this was coming because she's just delusional.
- [21:44]
Maureen Callahan
I mean, I totally. I didn't think it was coming simply because it lasted this long and there are so many eyeballs just involved in hate watching. I mean, we hate watch and recap every week on the Nerve.
- [21:56]
Kinsey Schofield
And like, the only way I know what's going on on that show is what you tell me happened.
- [22:00]
Maureen Callahan
But the response is always the same. Oh my God. Like, I hate the show too, from all of our audience. Like, I either don't watch or I hate the show, but the recaps are fun because it's an epic hate watch. And I really thought HBO was just gonna keep going with the eyeballs and the headlines rather than do the correct, culturally responsible thing, the artistically responsible thing. And take it out back and shoot it. And it does go to show you how delusional Sarah Jessica Parker is. I mean, she thinks that these storylines in which most recently a gay man from Britain who is 80 times the writer that she is, was just falling at her feet and all of the men of Manhattan were falling at her feet and she ran around looking like a bar wench, our favorite sprightly 900 year old heroine. And she thought this was fantastic. She thinks this is her highest, I think, form of self actualization. Like, you gotta wonder how many bats are in the belfry up in that head of hers.
- [22:59]
Kinsey Schofield
She was starting to look like her character in Hocus Pocus. And she's supposed to be this huge sex pot. And I'm like, you look like one of the Sanderson sisters girlfriend. What happened? What happened to that cute ass tutu? But, yeah, no, I agree with you. It was so defeating. As somebody that watched the show, you wanted these women to grow up and be taking on the world and they were just puddles of themselves. It was just completely defeating. And it was a waste of time and creativity. I mean, the writers should be so ashamed of themselves.
- [23:33]
Maureen Callahan
Well, I do think that. I think Michael Patrick King is a huge misogynist. And he was getting off on putting his actresses into these humiliating scenarios, such as Kristen Davis, who is the prettiest of the bunch and the most elegant, being forced to take a pratfall into a condom filled with ejaculate as part of an art exhibit like that. That was that to me. I mean, I needed no further proof after that. I'd always suspected it. And Sarah Jessica Parker, this idea that she's running around town going, this thing's viable. Like, here's what would have been it. First of all, they stacked the writer's room. It was DEI front to back. And then the show went woke, right? And it was Che Diaz and all of this stuff and the humor came out of it. But I think a far more realistic. I would have put Carrie back at square one. Big doesn't die. He divorces her because. Or she divorces him because he's all over Page Six with a billion like young influencers, okay? And he knocks one of them up. And then she finds out that his. His finances are a house of cards. And then maybe if she wants her bff Andy Cohen to have a cameo, he can play himself trying to convince her to join Real Housewives of New York City. And then she has to move back in penury to her fifth floor, walk up and she realizes that she was never a writer but merely just like kind of a sad it girl on the scene. And she's aged out. And what does she do? As the rest of her far more successful, emotionally mature friends ease into retirement with well funded 401 s and active interests in things beyond themselves. That's my elevator pitch for a season one arc. Yeah.
- [25:20]
Kinsey Schofield
And can Miranda not be a lesbian? I love Steve.
- [25:25]
Maureen Callahan
They turned Steve into like suddenly he became this developmentally delayed, emotionally stunted, hard of hearing eunuch. And you know, again it was like the ego like I can't believe these women made 10 million per season.
- [25:43]
Kinsey Schofield
Oh my gosh. And then you've got Steve always reminded me of Joey McIntyre. Why couldn't Joey McIntyre from NKOTB come invent, you know, Steve's brother for episode or two, Carrie falls in love with Steve's hot NKOTB brother. Yeah. There's just so many opportunities.
- [25:58]
Maureen Callahan
He could have been very interesting casting as Steve's secret love child.
- [26:03]
Kinsey Schofield
Oh yeah.
- [26:05]
Maureen Callahan
Something like that. You know, the Kim Cattrall of it all too, before we move on is. And we will be revisiting, I'm sure because this is not going away anytime soon. Despite our funeral. That cadaver. It's like a horror movie. It's actually alive. We thought it, you know, but the. So Kim Cattrall reportedly was done from the beginning of whenever SJP was trying to animate Sex and the City 3 as a film. But the storyline that they had proposed to her in all seriousness reportedly allegedly was that Miranda's teenage. Then teenage son Brady begins sexting Kim Cattrall's Samantha. And Samantha doesn't really have a problem with it.
- [26:50]
Kinsey Schofield
Ew. No. There's no way I would have been so livid too. The way that they've all just tried to dismiss her and act like she didn't exist when she was. We fell. I mean I was. I was always like maybe not slutty like Samantha, but definitely funny like Samantha. I was the Samantha without, you know, being on my back. But we all had our who we are in the group and Samantha was my favorite. So to try to watch the way that even in they completely pretend she doesn't exist is so vile. It's just so offensive. And she'd be better than that. She'd be living her best life today. She wouldn't need some gross teenage boy. Ugh. He's just so hideous.
- [27:31]
Maureen Callahan
She would never. She would never. But it just goes to the way they kept trying to assassinate her character and I Think, you know, Kim Cattrall, if I'm her, I'm taking all of that as just further proof of how inflamed with jealousy SJP and her mean girl minions were with Samantha's slash, Kim's gifts and her popularity and the warmth and vivacity and humor she brought to that show that could have very easily. You know, I was never a huge Sex and the City fan myself. I really didn't. I hate watched it. But you know, Kim Cattrall really took what could have been a one dimensional character and gave her three dimensions and a lot of heart and a lot of soul. And she turned that character from an archetype into like a living, breathing, sensitive human being. And I think she's seeing the, the end result of that play out. The fans still love her.
- [28:23]
Kinsey Schofield
They love her and we're disappointed in. Yeah, my favorite, I can't remember the exact line, but my favorite Samantha line was like, I don't like the Republican Party or the Democrat Party, I just like to party. And I was like, yes.
- [28:37]
Maureen Callahan
That'S a true New York woman. So the last story I want to get to which is Schadenfreude for the soul. There is a big report came out in the New York Post this week and elsewhere now this. The Paramount Skydance merger has gone through. Flop of the morning. It looks like Gayle King, astronaut low she though she may be. It looks like she's next on the chopping block over at CBS where she re upped not too long ago for between 13 and 15 million dollars to take her just through May through May. Kinsey, I'm so interested in your take on how these figures, these personalities, especially in morning tv. The morning show is about to begin again on Apple TV and we're going to be taking that apart Gayle King, explain her to me. She, aside from the connection to her platonic friend Oprah, this woman is not the most pleasing to see first thing in the morning nor is she the most pleasing to look at. She is a scold. She is humorless. She loves to correct her two male co hosts. I love Tony decouple because he's the only one who takes it to her. And, and, and for what? What is she. And she's got? Ratings are just plummeting. They're going through, through the floor.
- [29:58]
Kinsey Schofield
Yeah, did you see that? They were hoping they were banking on this morally questionable space trip to take CBS into higher ratings. They were like, okay, she's getting this free trip to go into space with Jeff Bezos and Co which as a journalist, we would say, absolutely not. I cannot do that. But cbs, they allowed it to happen because they were allegedly banking on this, sending the ratings into space themselves. There was a blimp, barely a blimp. And then back to being number three. I know you say let's just exclude the Oprah Winfrey of it all, but the reality is, R. Kelly, who, who else was it? There are, there are certain people that only are sitting down with Gayle King because of the Oprah of it all. The only reason that Gayle King can go on her morning show and tell secrets about Meghan Markle and Harry, which he has done in the past, is because of the Oprah of it all. I think Oprah is her biggest and asset. But otherwise she, she has no sense of humor, she's joyless and she seems kind of bitchy. I don't, I don't enjoy watching her. I wouldn't watch her. I think that her, the only reason we give her the time of day is her proximity to her best friend.
- [31:13]
Maureen Callahan
I agree. I would add to that I don't think she's very bright. I don't think she's bright at all. I think her ego is oversized to her degree of talent, which is minimal at best and being very generous. And I think sooner rather than later that Oprah may become, as we just saw, with the attempts of Hawaiians on Maui to evacuate responsibly. And Oprah, as we did the reporting, we showed the fact she did not open her road immediately. Her road, rather her private road. It's a coastal evacuation route. I think Oprah's gonna become a liability sooner rather than later. I do, I do.
- [31:55]
Kinsey Schofield
Yeah. I mean, she's three seconds away from being officially markled. But I think anybody that has given Harry and Meghan a platform lately are looking pretty bruised today. Tyler Perry, you know Jess Mulroney, who just announced her divorce from Ben. So, yeah, I think that Oprah's probably on the chopping block here pretty soon.
- [32:20]
Maureen Callahan
Well, we at the Nerve, you know, we just inaugurated our wood chipper. We're gonna get our guillotine warmed up for the big O. Thank you for joining us, Kinsey. It's always so much fun talking to you.
- [32:32]
Kinsey Schofield
Thank you.
- [32:33]
Maureen Callahan
Next up, we are going to do a quick celeb little wrap up. Well, we're also going to debut the Kennedy wing of the woodshed troublemaker Jennifer. She went through several versions. She is a perfectionist, non pareil. So we're going to debut that and then talk a little Ozzy and then your emails. Back in a minute. We've all had days when skin feels dull, hydration doesn't stick and energy is all over the place. And no amount of water, skin care or coffee seems to help. That's where Peaks Radiant Skin Duo comes to the rescue and this product has been a game changer. It's a doctor recommended formulation trusted by experts like Dr. Mark Hyman, Dr. Jason Fung and Dr. Will Cole. It supports whole body wellness from the inside out. And with over 15,000 five star reviews, it's clear this product delivers. Here's why it works. Sun Goddess Matcha provides steady, calm energy throughout the day. No jitters. It's packed with L Theanine for focus and EGCG antioxidants supporting skin clarity and gut health. Because great skin starts from within, BT fountain electrolytes hydrate like nothing else. Even with plenty of water, many of us can still feel dehydrated. The difference here are clinically proven ceramides that lock moisture into the skin at a cellular level, leaving it plump flesh fresh and glowing. Purity matters. Peaks Quadruple toxin screening ensures all ingredients are free from heavy metals, pesticides and mold. Just clean science backed hydration and energy. So say goodbye to fatigue, dry skin and energy crashes. Ready for healthier hydration? Get 20% off plus a free frother and glass beaker@peaklife.com thenerv Again, that's peaklife.com thenerve.
- [34:43]
Meg Josephson
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Maureen Callahan
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Meg Josephson
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Maureen Callahan
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- [35:09]
Meg Josephson
So smooth and beach ready.
- [35:11]
Maureen Callahan
Let's go. We are back troublemakers. We have breaking news. The new wing of the woodshed has been completed. Yes, in time for the forthcoming three part JFK Junior doc on cnn. Our Kennedy wing has been completed and we are opening it for business. Take a look at what Jennifer has put together. Okay, this wing has it all. It's got Ted Kennedy in a bath towel, his head wrapped in another towel to dry himself off after plummeting his car into the waters at Chappaquiddick three feet deep, leaving poor Mary Joe Capechne to die a long painful death. We've got Bobby Kennedy Jr. And his sex diaries. We've got JFK and Marilyn. We've got JFK Jr. The himbo himself with George magazine. We've got Jack Schlossberg and Mommy Caroline opening the next please room. In that wing we have got our beloved Rosemary Kennedy, who has a place of honor forever in our wing. And yours truly is standing guard. I've got a bird in my hat. I don't know why Jennifer loved it. I said, I think it's weird, but I kind of love it because it's so weird holding my book Ask not the Kennedys and the women they destroyed. And behind me underneath an American flag is one Teddy Van Halen, my guard dog who rivals SEAL Team Six's Cairo at the Osama bin Laden raid. So we will be visiting that surely on Tuesday's nerve when we take apart the first the first part of that CNN doc, okay? And by the way, the Daily Mail published a bombshell report on Wednesday that I fully believe. I fully believe this because I had read a well sourced account from a named acquaintance of JFK Jr. Who said on the record, JFK Jr. Admitted to me that he was blackmailed into showing support for his cousin, William Kennedy Smith, and being photographed with his cousin exiting the courthouse while Kennedy Smith was on trial for rape. And Junior didn't want to do it and his mother wanted him nowhere near it. She wouldn't go anywhere near that thing. She knew I'm not. I'm. Allegedly, she knew. But apparently, reportedly, Ted the lion of the Senate, Ted Kennedy, threatened Junior with telling the entire world's media that Junior was gay unless he attended this trial. It tracks. It tracks. Also, I want to address a tragedy out here on the East End of Long Island. It was the front page of yesterday's New York Post Montauk Mystery. A young, beautiful, accomplished Irish immigrant named Martha Nolan O', Slattera, 33 years old. She was found dead in a boat docked at the Lux Montauk Yacht Club. And as of today, her case is still being investigated. So far, there is no evidence of foul play, though police have not ruled that out. We mention this story because this is a tragic cautionary tale that goes to everything we're about here at the Nerve. Do not buy into what you see, hear and read on social media or in the press about how the Hamptons are. It's nothing like what you see in the TV. Sorry, in TV? What am I, 80 years old? In the movies and TV? Yes, the natural Beauty is unparalleled. And yes, if you're out here for the right reasons, it can be an oasis. It can be everything you need for your soul. But there are way too many people out here in the summertime who come here for all the wrong reasons. They are looking to compete as to who has the most money, the most drugs, the best drugs, who has the most powerful famous friends, who can have the most decadent time, the wildest time, the best social media posts. None of this ever ends well. Trust me, it never ends well. And we don't know what happened to Martha, but what goes on over at the Yacht club, it's just partying all day, all night, from Memorial Day to Labor Day. And it can be a dark scene. It can be a dark scene. And she seemed like she was a real light in the world. So our sincere condolences again go out to Martha's family, her friends and her colleagues. Now onto your emails. And we are going to begin with an insider's tribute to Ozzie. You know, a couple of he's the COVID of People magazine and a few episodes back, Bill from Brooklyn was on and we were talking about Ozzy and his legacy. And I was talking about, you know, my difficulty getting past Ozzy's abusive animals. You know, I have when it comes to animals, you know, that's a red line for me. And Bill from Brooklyn was saying, yeah, I agree with you. But Ozzy did give us so much as an artist and we all did have a relationship with him, parasocial relationship. But you know, his art meant a lot to so many of us. And when these people go, you know, a little part of you goes. And to that point I got a wonderful email from a troublemaker who goes by Ian. It all tracks, it all sounds real. He's writing from the uk, loves our mission statement here at the Nerve. Real. Talk about fake people. I wanted to say a few words about Ozzy. I'd been a friend of his and Sharon's for over 40 years. I had no business involvement, nor did I particularly like his music. I met him, I met him through a mutual friend. He was an extremely warm, generous, gentle, kind, honest, down to earth and open hearted guy. He also possessed the most amazing sense of humor and was a wonderfully dry rancoteur. He was deeply lovable and endearing, which is why there is such an outpouring of emotion. He was most definitely not a psychopath. He did think it was a toy bat. Unfortunately, he was plagued by his addictions and did many, many crazy things. As a result, the reason he was always forgiven, including his attempt to strangle Sharon in a blackout, was because he experienced immense remorse and genuine regret for his insane actions. Before you think I'm excusing his attack or downplaying it, I know of a recovering alcoholic who killed a police officer in a blackout and has absolutely zero memory of this. I have been clean. Ian's talking about himself clean and sober for over 25 years and look back on some of my past behavior with disgust and despair. Everyone who knew Ozzy well loved him very much. As is obvious from the countless tributes paid to him. The Prince of Darkness bullshit was a theatrical act. Pat Boone has just suggested he should have been known as the Prince of Kindness. Ozzy told me that they were neighbors for a time and that Pat was, quote, the nicest fucking guy on the planet, bar none. For what it's worth, I just felt like I'd like to defend Ozzie as best as I could. We take this to heart, Ian, and really love you writing. This is a beautiful email he signs off. More power to you, especially when you're attacking Bill Maher and Oprah. Yes, keep digging into the latter. There are some horror stories to be unearthed. Look into the school in South Africa. Trust me, we are. It's going to be a long investigation, but we're doing it. Maureen, this is from yours in Trouble making Jennifer Sampson our house artist of the Kennedy Wing. She loved our takedown of aglt. She has Sarah Jessica Parker Story I attended the Directors Guild Awards in 2000 when Ang Lee, one of my favorite directors, won for Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. SJP was seated at a table just in front of hours closer to the stage. She was in my constant view. She never stopped moving, leg shaking, checking her clothes, her bra strap, fidgeting in her seat, her hair back to the bra strap. It was so distracting and she really seemed like she was on something. She didn't touch her plate, of course, or engage with anyone at her table, none of whom were her level of celebrity. My guess is she felt she deserved to be much closer to the stage with the A listers. I was starstruck when I first saw her, but soon wanted to head over and teach her some manners, Oklahoma Style. The story about SJP and jeans and an old shirt to meet that New Yorker reporter and attend the ballet is so telling. I was fuming. It's like she's always angling to get the most attention and assert her superiority under the guise of sweetness and preciousness. Gross. Here's my last little nugget. This is so good, you guys. I dated Faye Dunaway's nephew and he said, oh, this is alleged. I knew Matthew Broderick back in LA when he was gay. Give Teddy a squeeze for me. You got it again, Allegedly, vis a vis Matthew Broderick. Hi, Maureen. Regarding the mini nerve of JFK Jr. I worked at a top ad agency in NYC in the 1990s. My client was a major credit card company. My job was to spend the media budget. And George, JFK Jr's failure of a magazine came calling. I remember the launch thinking, what a stupid name. But I thought maybe I was the dumb one because I didn't get the joke, because the media was telling you and all of us that he was a genius. And it was great. We did advertise in George because everyone wanted to be a part of something created by someone who was, quote, special. I had the opportunity to meet JFK Jr. Yes, he was hot. We all agree that's empirical. But he was also dull and boring. The ad pages soon started to dwindle. I never did read a full issue of George because, like its founder, it was dull and boring. And thank you for mentioning Carolyn had a cocaine problem. The mainstream media would have everyone believe she was an ethereal, captivating, mysterious woman who won the heart of America's prince. A friend who worked at George would often tell me that Carolyn would say, storm into that office, obviously high, and raise holy hell. I can just see her with her long camel hair, Calvin Klein coat trailing behind her. Maureen, she loves the show that we use a larger vocabulary. She's a former teacher. She loves it. On Today's Nerve, you said you wouldn't call yourself a ballet dancer. But, Maureen, why not? You're an actor. Astronaut now. Why not be a ballet dancer, too? Perhaps it'll go in the Instagram bio. Okay, two hour. And just like that breakdown of the scene in which the Duncan character goes into Carrie's secret closet and says, sparkle, sparkle, sparkle, and picks up one of her silvery sparkly shoes and goes, oh, hello. Look at her. And I said, listen, this is a gay man friend of Dorothy, coated all day long from troublemaker Amy Maureen. In the original book, I believe the shoes were silver. And I got so many emails about this that, yes, in the book the wizard of Oz, Dorothy's shoes were silver. In the film, they were changed to red to pop in Technicolor against the yellow brick road. But someone on that writing staff. You know what? It's not the writing staff. I'M going to tell you. It was the, it was the wardrobe department. They got the subtext in. They're making it a little bit more interesting for those of us with a few brain cells to rub together. Okay, Finally, Maureen nervecon in Las Vegas. You're my favorite astronaut. Thank you. I won't tell. Gail, please host a nerve convention in Las Vegas. And have Billy Joel joined you? That would be a dream. From your lips, right? From your number one Las Vegas. Vegas Troublemaker. We are talking about a live event and getting it going. I don't know that it will be Vegas, but we are having active discussions. Some of you are going to take that apart and say, maureen, discussions are active. You're right, you're right. Stand corrected. Okay. It's all great stuff. Keep it up, keep it coming. You guys remember to like, subscribe. Spread the word. Let's keep growing our troublemaker community. Everyone who has come on board is just adding so much in terms of the, the way the show is being written and what we're building. And I think we're going to do a guillotine. I do. I think we're going to do a guillotine. As always, email me at maureenvilmaycaremedia.com DM me on Instagram at Maureen Callahan, writer, or at the Nerve show. And up next, I will be joined by Meg Josephson to discuss her new book, are you mad at me? See you in a minute. Are you looking to support more made in the USA manufacturing this year? Whether it's home decor, clothing or furniture, it's become extremely difficult to find high quality products that aren't made overseas. A recent Forbes report revealed that annual earnings for small businesses across the US have dropped by over 75% since 2023. Small businesses in this country are really struggling to stay afloat. And with the likes of Amazon and Target dominating the market, of course, of course they're struggling. That's where a warehouse comes in. This is your one stop shop for artisanal, one of a kind home goods. With hundreds of products to choose from, this company is deeply committed to supporting American manufacturers. Their easy to navigate online marketplace lets you browse a wide range of independent makers. 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Take our free eligibility quiz@joinmochi.com and use code AUDIO40 at checkout for 40 $40 off your first month of membership. That's join mochi.com results may vary. Eligible GLP1 patients typically lose 1 to 2 pounds per week in the first six months with Moji when combined with a healthy lifestyle. Meg Josephson is a licensed psychotherapist with a master's from Columbia University. She specializes in trauma informed care. Her debut book, are you mad at Me? Which is out now, covers a trait that she labels fawning, a survival mechanism developed by children who are raised in difficult homes. Some of us at the Nerve know something about that, and this is an adaptation that they often carry well into adulthood, perhaps without even realizing it. So this is Meg's book, which we got an early copy of Are youe Mad at Me? And she joins us now to discuss this and what an adult child perhaps can do to heal this response, this trauma response, really, that almost just becomes a hardwired way of moving through the world. So, Meg, welcome to the Nerve. Thank you for having me. Happy to be here, of course. Great. I want to begin with, in researching this, before talking to you, it occurred to me that there are some very highly, highly successful people who nonetheless identify themselves as people pleasers, one being Beyonce, who in 2023 said, I spent so much of my life as a serial people pleaser. Jennifer Lawrence said that she, well into her film career, was a people pleaser to the point that she she said yes to projects just so as to not disappoint anybody who asked her that she made a mistake in her career. Taylor Swift, in the song youg're Losing Me, wrote, I wouldn't marry me either. A pathological people pleaser. Lena Dunham, to me presents as a people pleaser. Billy Joel in his recent documentary, grew up in a very difficult home and in adulthood seemed to have gone the opposite way and says on camera, I don't need your authority to get me there. So could you talk to us about, you know, you cover different types of people pleasers, like sub genius of people pleasers. But what in essence marks a people pleaser and how do you know if you are one?
- [53:34]
Meg Josephson
Well, I love actually that you started with the success of it because it works for many of us. It allows us to be really good at what we do, to be very charismatic, to be likable, to be charming. And so, and sometimes we need to people please, whether it's for to please our boss, to get a paycheck or it's for safety. And when we're doing it all the time, when we're doing it unnecessarily in situations and in relationships that we're actually safe, that's when it becomes exhausting and not sustainable. But it's certainly not something to shame ourselves for. And it can, it's very useful in some ways to be adaptable and to, I imagine as an interviewer like being hyper attuned to who you're, you're interviewing. It's, it's, it's a useful skill, I think. What, what makes it the line that crosses from when is it useful and when is it becoming.
- [54:39]
Maureen Callahan
Not a hindrance?
- [54:41]
Meg Josephson
Yeah. Is, is when we're, when we're carrying it unconsciously into situations where we don't need it and we are abandoning ourselves in the process.
- [54:52]
Maureen Callahan
Like, you know, I think not to. I, but I think this is the key, right, Because I think many people, you know, myself included, product of a difficult home. Now that bred in me certain traits that I recognize in your book. Perfectionism.
- [55:07]
Meg Josephson
Yes.
- [55:07]
Maureen Callahan
You know, learning how to read a room and keep the peace, putting the needs and the emotional needs and wants of the parent far ahead of my own. And I do think this does something fundamentally to the child where it rewires the brain and your emotional regulations to the point where it's, it's really, it takes you a minute when you get into adulthood to say, wait a minute. Why am I so intent on making sure everybody else is happy and satisfied before me, even when it comes to your closest relationship? So what is the alarm bell that you find goes off in your clients that brings them to you?
- [55:50]
Meg Josephson
I in the book talk about how growing up, I grew up in a home that had addiction and volatility and I was on edge a lot of the time and that was very useful and necessary and monitoring my dad's moods and being hyper vigilant and being good and easy and perfect and then growing up Getting into adulthood that that tendency was still there. It was just now changing forms. So it was overanalyzing social interactions. It was avoiding conflict, avoiding hard conversations because I didn't want someone to think I disagreed with them. So I would just morph my opinion to match theirs and, and feeling like I just didn't know who I was because I had been people pleasing up until that point. How old were you, Meg, in that moment of recognition? Yeah, I would say. Right. Graduating college was a big moment. So like 20, 21, 22 was a moment of recognition for me. I have a scene where I talk about I'm in the towel aisle of Bed, Bath and Beyond, which I think is out of business now. However. Yeah, I was looking then I was looking for towels and trying to decide what's my favorite color. I don't even know what my favorite color is because I just had been so hyper tuned to, in my case, my dad, whatever he wants works because I just didn't want to upset him. Upsetting him. He could flip like a switch and it was just easier to go along with what he wanted. But that, that doesn't just go away when we grow up, it comes with us.
- [57:26]
Maureen Callahan
Exactly.
- [57:27]
Meg Josephson
But in some instances like childhood or an abusive relationship or some toxic sort of situation, we need that, but our bodies don't get the cue that we don't need that anymore.
- [57:41]
Maureen Callahan
Right, right. Because in childhood it's a survival mechanism, it's an adaptation. It gets you out of the house. You get out of the house and you get into the real world.
- [57:51]
Meg Josephson
Yes.
- [57:51]
Maureen Callahan
And your parents aren't running the show anymore, you're dysfunctional, whatever. And then you realize, oh, what I think and feel does matter, it should matter. And I completely relate to you and some of the clients in your book who are I guess under pseudonyms here. But the idea that a simple disagreement. The people pleaser can so easily catastrophize that, that a simple disagreement equals the the end of a friendship or a relationship. Can you talk about that? And how one begins to unwind that thinking?
- [58:27]
Meg Josephson
I'm so glad you pulled that out because that, that to me is one of the core things that I will look for when I'm working with a client who is in this people pleasing, fawn response way of being and is something that I've really worked through and continue to work through myself. Conflict avoidance. We are avoiding tension, disagreement, the other person perceiving us as disagreeing. And I think of this through a few angles, the first one being many of us who resonate with this. We didn't witness conflict being dealt with in a very regulated way.
- [59:05]
Maureen Callahan
100%. You actually write in the book that you see conflict and never resolution in the home.
- [59:12]
Meg Josephson
Exactly.
- [59:13]
Maureen Callahan
Fighting and no way of fighting in a healthy way, a constructive way. Disagreements as a way to get to a better place. Not a place of just silence.
- [59:25]
Meg Josephson
Of course.
- [59:26]
Kinsey Schofield
And it.
- [59:27]
Meg Josephson
So it makes a lot of sense if we're only witnessing conflict in extreme ways, whether that's yelling, slamming doors, silent treatment, passive aggression. And it's never acknowledged there's. The parent doesn't say after the fact, hey, I'm so sorry I yelled and that was my fault. That wasn't. That wasn't you. When we're left alone to make sense of it, we learn to blame ourselves. And we. That's how we make sense of what just happened, is we say, something's wrong with me. I'm bad, I did something wrong here. And over time, when that happens again and again and again, it really does form the belief of I. It goes from I did something bad to I am. That I am bad at my core. And so of course, as adults, if we didn't witness conflict in a. Being handled in a healthy way, we didn't witness repair. We learn the following belief. Conflict equals unsafe. Conflict means love will be taken away from me. So what are we gonna do? Avoid it, of course. And it makes so much sense. And it's. It's certainly nothing to shame ourselves for. What where the healing begins is that's an unconscious thing that's happening. Okay, there's a threat. I'm avoiding the conflict so that I can feel safe. And that was true then. But when we're now adults and we're with our best friend, that feels really safe, or we're with a partner that feels really safe. That belief that if I get into conflict with someone, it's over, it's ruined, there's no going back, that belief is still there, but it's actually. It may not be true in this situation. And by conflict, we're also kind of keeping people at a distance because we're.
- [61:11]
Maureen Callahan
I love this part of your book. I love this part of your book.
- [61:14]
Meg Josephson
Thank you.
- [61:15]
Maureen Callahan
How people pleasing, in fact isn't great for other people, whether they're people just you encounter moving through the world or really in your closest relationships. I mean, I. When I got out of it, through a lot of therapy, I still can catch myself in it and I have to really push through it and say no. Sometimes having a conflict with someone is healthy because you're acknowledging the actual thing that is happening. But I have friends who I know are still very much in gear. One, they are stuck in their childhood default crouch of people pleasing. And I have to tell you, being on the opposite side of it, you're like, this is exhausting. Because that person, you can see them hyper attuned to every little micro expression and being immediately apologetic. And you're just like, oh my God. This is just. It's a conversation.
- [62:08]
Meg Josephson
I'm so glad you brought that up. I had a book signing last night. I was in Boston and there was a Q and a portion and a woman raised her hand and said, I've done a lot of work on this and I feel I've. I've moved through a lot of these tendencies, but I have a friend who is very much still stuck in it and I'm now on the receiving end. And I think this, this work of healing these people, pleading pleasing tendencies, is so important for both sides of the relationship. Because avoiding conflict, reassurance seeking, only showing, being only seeing people when you're on because you don't want them to see you as imperfect. It can put quite a strain on a relationship. And it really does keep. Keep people at a distance. I love what you just said of conflict.
- [63:01]
Kinsey Schofield
It.
- [63:01]
Meg Josephson
It's saying, you know, it's. It allows for seeing just what is. It's allowing to see reality. And I also think it's. It's just allowing for both people to be themselves. If there's a little bit of friction or difference, sometimes it just means that there's enough safety in the relationship for both people to exist as they are. And what a great thing that one person doesn't feel the need to contort themselves to be to match what they think the other person expects of them. So, yeah, something to be celebrated. And I want to be clear, I'm talking here about like healthy friction in healthy relationships, not cyclical abusive conflict where nothing's ever getting resolved. We're talking like healthy conversations here.
- [63:47]
Maureen Callahan
Yeah, well, I think also part of it, when you begin to move through, okay, I don't like this. This doesn't feel comfortable. And I know I got wired sort of incorrectly due to my environment. You know, one of the things that I think is I'd love for you to talk if there's a sort of behavioral, like a cognitive behavioral therapy means of doing this, but I think for a lot of people, what's very difficult, it's difficult for anybody, period. But if you're a people pleaser, it's the worst. Learning to sit in very uncomfortable feelings. I'm angry at you and I know I'm right to be angry at you, and I'm just gonna sit through it. Or you might be angry at me, and that's cool, I can take it, but I'm just gonna deal with it. Can you talk about how you learn to just sit with uncomfortable emotion without feeling the need to respond immediately and try to make it all better?
- [64:40]
Meg Josephson
Oh, I love everything you're saying. You're so attuned to the heart of this.
- [64:45]
Maureen Callahan
I did the work, I'll tell you that.
- [64:48]
Meg Josephson
I know I'm attuned. Discomfort is increasing our tolerance for discomfort in a slow way. And I emphasis on slow because is the most important practice in this. Because when we are hypervigilant of people's emotions, we're hyper attuned to them. We kind of metabolize their emotions as our own. And so their disappointment becomes our discomfort and their disappointment becomes our guilt, and their emotions become our emotions. And there's no separation between outer world and inner world. And so we've. We feel discomfort because we're. We're sensing their moods and we think, oh, my gosh, I need to do something about this. So I will say, sorry. I will say, are you mad at me? I will be helpful to you to just alleviate this tension. Because people pleasing says, I can't feel good until I know we're good, and I can't feel okay until you're okay. There's this, like, enmeshment with our worlds. And so what's really important to know is that for anyone that's people pleasing. When I. When I hear someone come in to my office and they'll often have this urgency and I was that person to fix me, tell me what is wrong with me so I can get out of here. In four to five sessions, that urgency is dysregulation.
- [66:22]
Maureen Callahan
Interesting.
- [66:23]
Meg Josephson
We can't be. How do I want to phrase this? If we were actually in danger, we wouldn't have the time to take three deep breaths. So by slowing down, by taking a pause, by putting the phone down instead of immediately saying, are you mad at me? Or starting to get lost in the spiral. By slowing down and taking a pause, we are communicating to our body that we're safe. Because we couldn't do that if we were actually threatened. We wouldn't have time. And so urgency is dysregulation and slowness is safety. And so anytime we can remember or catch ourselves and notice ourselves, I have an acronym in the book called Nicer. And the first step is notice. Notice what's happening. And just that's already a win because we're noticing we're bringing something from the unconscious, meaning we were doing it without realizing it. We're now bringing it into the conscious that is already healing it because we're doing something new. So that's always the first step. Notice it. Notice that it's happening. Acknowledge it.
- [67:35]
Maureen Callahan
Meg, what do you advise a client who really is. I almost think of this as something, as you were saying, when you get to quote, unquote, safety, like emotional safety, intellectual safety, you can breathe. There does seem to almost be this evolutionary misfiring in people pleasers, which is sort of like, if I don't fix this now, if something is broken in any given relationship and I don't address it now, it might fester and get worse and I might lose this person. Like, how do you get somebody to talk themselves down from that and to realize how a sort of healthy back and forth can work?
- [68:18]
Meg Josephson
I first want to say it's so understandable because we feel this. We feel abandonment looming. Oh gosh, if we get into a conflict or they don't like me, I will be abandoned. It's very black or white because survival is very black or white. And I think what's really important to understand, and this is why it's slow work. And when we're dysregulated and when we're feeling urgent. That is so annoying to hear. It's like you're you. There's got to be a tool. What's the secret tool? What's this secret thing that you're hiding from me that's going to fix all of this? But it really is the slowness. And I, I say this because many people pleasing tendencies are born from complex relational trauma. And I can give a simply define that, which is. It's when we feel unsafe, unheard, unseen, unloved in relationships that are supposed to feel safe. And it's these kind of micro moments of feeling that way again and again and again and again. Often in the caregiving system, it doesn't just have to be caregiving system. It can be in adulthood too. And it can be just within society and the oppressive systems that we're living in anyway. But because this is happening again and again, again over time and over that period of time, it's creating this need to people please. This need to please. Because that's true and it took that long to form these beliefs, we need time as well. To create counter evidence of relationships being safe and us being safe in order for those beliefs to be rewired. We can't tell. We can't trick ourselves out of trauma. We have to show ourselves over time that we're safe, that we can have a hard conversation and they didn't abandon us, that we can say no and the world didn't stop turning. When we can show ourselves that we're safe, that is the healing. And it is so subtle. And I don't want that to feel discouraging. I actually want it to feel hopeful because it's happening now. Like just by noticing these tendencies, just by taking a deep breath, we're already doing it. How wonderful.
- [70:46]
Maureen Callahan
And I think one of the key things too is. And I think it's so simple almost as to be painfully obvious. But for those who grew up in difficult homes, who maybe didn't get that reinforcement throughout their entire childhood and adolescence, if you cannot have a healthy conflict with someone without that person exploding on you or running the other way, that person's got the problem. That person just did you a favor by exiting stage. Right.
- [71:16]
Meg Josephson
Yeah. I always like to say, I. I'm so glad you're bringing this up. We can't. It goes two ways. Both people need to be committed to having understanding and closeness from conflicts or disagreement and to being open to the idea.
- [71:36]
Maureen Callahan
Humble enough that you could be very wrong, that you're interested in a dialogue, a back and forth, not a prosecution in which one person is right and one is wrong.
- [71:44]
Meg Josephson
That's right. A curiosity. What are you feeling? What am I feeling? How can we understand each other better? There's something we're not getting. Where can we see each other? That it takes. It takes two people to do that, certainly.
- [72:00]
Maureen Callahan
And of equal emotional intelligence, for sure. Right.
- [72:04]
Meg Josephson
And so what I always like to say is, okay, conflict will either lead to closeness or clarity. And so we may not have the. We may realize in being in disagreement with someone or in going through something challenging with someone, it could be grieving a parent, and you realize your partner's not there for you, or you are struggling and your friend isn't being supporting you in the way that you'd want them to be. That may not lead to closeness. If you say, hey, I really. I was disappointed. I was really expecting you to be there. They may say, I don't know. I don't know. What are you talking about? I didn't. I don't know what to tell you. And there's defensive closeness may not happen, but we may get clarity. Okay. They're not able to give me this. Now what. What do I want to do with this information?
- [72:52]
Maureen Callahan
It's good. I always say information, whether you feel like it's bad information. All information is good information.
- [72:58]
Meg Josephson
I think absolutely. That's how I feel about emotions too. Emotions, they're just. They're communicating their messenger. So to your point earlier about anger, many of us are. Are taught anger's bad because we're not witnessing it in healthy ways. And when we feel anger, I don't know anyone who was told growing up, honey, you're angry.
- [73:19]
Maureen Callahan
Good job. That's so good.
- [73:21]
Kinsey Schofield
No.
- [73:21]
Maureen Callahan
You know the only person I was told who got to be angry? My mom.
- [73:25]
Meg Josephson
No, exactly.
- [73:25]
Maureen Callahan
It was great when she was angry.
- [73:27]
Meg Josephson
The most disregulated person. Everyone's working hard to keep them happy. Yeah, that's. That's the job of. Of the. The family members. But anger, just like all of our emotions, it's. It's carrying information. Something here isn't right. That's what anger is telling us. Something's unjust. I have a need that isn't being met. How we react to that anger, whether it's yelling or whether it's going on a walk instead, that's our responsibility. But the anger itself is just simply information.
- [74:02]
Maureen Callahan
It's a feeling. It's a feeling. And I think to castigate oneself for having a feeling, it's pointless. It's telling you something. And if you can get to the point where you can allow that emotion to ride its way through you, no matter how difficult it is, that's the best way to let it go through you and then take the information when your. Your emotional system has settled down.
- [74:25]
Meg Josephson
I love that. And the irony is it's. It actually, when we resist, prolongs it.
- [74:32]
Maureen Callahan
Yeah.
- [74:32]
Meg Josephson
It's the cause. The emotion is still there. But now we have shame and more anxiety. Or we're angry that we're angry, or we're. We're anxious that we're anxious. And we're adding these layers of tension and to. And that's human because we're trying to protect ourselves from this discomfort of our emotions. But to just say, okay, this is my. If one practice. Just to start with this, just label it. What is this that I'm feeling, the primary emotion. I'm feeling angry, I'm feeling anxious. And then you might start shaming yourself for it, or there might be these extra things added. Okay. But naming what. That what the underlying emotion is, is such a great place to start and allows us to really be with what's happening.
- [75:17]
Maureen Callahan
Well, I couldn't agree with you more. And Meg, you know, we at the Nerve are often very skept of books that are under the self help genre. But this one we heartily recommend at the Nerve. Are youe Mad At Me By Meg Josephson? You can get it now. Thanks for joining us today, Meg.
- [75:35]
Meg Josephson
Thank you so much for having me.
- [75:37]
Maureen Callahan
Thanks again to Kinsey and Meg for joining us on today's nerve. And as always, thanks to all of you. And that does it for our Friday edition. But remember, tomorrow we drop a whole new mini. Oh my God. This, this. If this person shows her face on social media on Monday with no shame, we have not done our jobs or this person is just that impervious. You know what I'm going to say? We did our jobs because we really, we took this thing apart. We three of us were watching it and annotating to whatever. You're going to love it. You're going to love it. So remember, the mini drops 10am on Saturdays, 10am Eastern over on YouTube. For the moment, that's the only place you can get it, YouTube. So join us there for our weekly coffee date. Some of you on the other side of the world, you'll be having some cocktails. I'm joining you that way in spirit. So we'll see you there at the Mini on Saturday and then again on next next week's full show Tuesday at the Nerve where you will never guess what we're about to say next.
- [76:57]
Kinsey Schofield
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Kinsey Schofield
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Kinsey Schofield
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