Meghan Markle's Self-Destruction, Dakota Johnson at Saudi Film Fest, and a Quick Trip Through Space

Summary

The Nerve with Maureen Callahan - Episode Summary

Episode: Meghan Markle's Self-Destruction, Dakota Johnson at Saudi Film Fest, and a Quick Trip Through Space
Date: December 10, 2025
Host: Maureen Callahan
Guests: Rob Shooter (Celebrity Reporter), Professor Avi Loeb (Harvard Astrophysicist)

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Overview of the Episode

This episode of The Nerve dives headfirst into Hollywood's most controversial and cringe-worthy moments, from Meghan Markle's public and private unraveling to celebrities' hypocritical attendance at the Saudi film festival, and concludes with a mind-expanding interview about the mysterious interstellar comet 3I Atlas with Harvard Professor Avi Loeb. Callahan's signature mix of incisive humor, cynicism, and dogged skepticism shines throughout, challenging celebrity culture, media narratives, and even the scientific establishment.

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1. Meghan Markle: Self-Destruction in the Public Eye

[06:23–16:41]

Key Discussion Points

• Meghan Markle’s Current Scandal:
  Meghan's father is in ICU with a leg amputation. She hasn't reached out, further damaging her already battered public image following her failed Netflix special.
• Brand Collapse:
  “If you’ve built a brand on compassion...you gotta follow through with it.” – Rob Shooter [07:12]
  Both Maureen and Rob emphasize that Meghan's reputation for "compassion" is now unsalvageable given her conduct.
• Speculation on Future Tactics:
  Maureen hypothesizes that after her father's death, Meghan may try to allege sexual abuse to justify her coldness – a theory discussed among journalists but not yet aired publicly.
  “When Thomas dies, Meghan is going to claim that he sexually abused her... so she can be the victim.” – Maureen Callahan [09:33]
• Harry Might Be Next:
  The panel predicts that Meghan will use similar tactics on Harry post-divorce, perhaps alleging abuse for sympathy.
  “When she leaves Harry, and she will, she is going to allege...that he abused her.” – Maureen Callahan [12:48]
• General Consensus:
  Both find Meghan’s lack of supportive relationships, even among family or friends, to be a major red flag.

Notable Quotes

• “She could jump on a private plane. She could be with him or at least pick up the telephone. This is really, really ugly...she's not going to recover from this.” – Rob Shooter [07:12]
• “I refer to her as a spiritual reptilian.” – Maureen Callahan [08:51]
• “If you meet somebody who has no roots. Be cautious.” – Rob Shooter [16:03]

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2. Toxic Hollywood: Ryan Reynolds, Blake Lively, and Burned Bridges

[16:41–24:24]

Key Discussion Points

• Paramount Cancels Three Ryan Reynolds Films:
  Ryan Reynolds had a three-film deal, including a Ferris Bueller spinoff, which has been scrapped.
• Overselling and Untrustworthiness:
  Rob describes Reynolds as a "pitching machine" and "hustler" more skilled at self-promotion than acting.
• Backstage Bullying Claims:
  Blake Lively and Ryan, along with Taylor Swift, reportedly ambushed film director Justin Baldoni, sabotaging his career before it even began. Hollywood is now leery of working with them due to trust and reputational risks.
• Falling Out with Hugh Jackman:
  Once best friends, Jackman has distanced himself from Reynolds, aware of the reputational risks, especially after a recent Golden Globes nomination snub.

Notable Quotes

• “His real talent is very similar to Meghan Markle... promoting himself.” – Rob Shooter [17:24]
• “They have hurt their careers with this relentless lawsuit. Even if they win this, they’re going to lose—because they’ve destroyed themselves.” – Rob Shooter [20:23]
• “The last thing [Hugh Jackman] needs is the stench of Ryan Reynolds around him too.” – Rob Shooter [22:57]

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3. Awards Season: The Golden Globes Have Lost the Plot

[24:24–30:35]

Key Discussion Points

• Lost Relevance:
  The Golden Globes are now run by “snobs,” nominating obscure foreign films, betraying the fun, glitzy, corrupt spirit that once made them a spectacle.
• Hollywood's Disconnect:
  Audiences, Callahan notes, don’t care about awards given to movies they’ve never seen.
• Anecdotes of Past Globes Corruption:
  Rob shares that bribery was once an open, even charming, secret among industry insiders.

Notable Quotes

• “They’ve ruined the Golden Globes by trying to make it more legit. I loved that it was totally illegitimate.” – Rob Shooter [25:48]
• “It could be an email. The whole night could just be an email.” – Rob Shooter [30:02], quoting Tina Fey

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4. Hollywood Hypocrisy: Saudi Film Festival Red Carpet

[33:39–39:17]

Key Discussion Points

• A-List Attendance Despite Abuses:
  U.S. celebrities, especially women, flock to Saudi Arabia’s Red Sea Film Festival, ignoring the kingdom’s human rights record for exposure and paychecks.
• Cringe-worthy Celebrity Justifications:
  Dakota Johnson and Adrien Brody offer tone-deaf praise.
  “Less than 24 hours in Saudi Arabia, I have a renewed faith in cinema.” – Dakota Johnson [36:16], mocked mercilessly by Maureen.
• Celebrity List:
  Other attendees lambasted by Maureen: Gwyneth Paltrow, Johnny Depp, Jessica Alba, Queen Latifah, Uma Thurman, and more.

Notable Quotes

• “So what if a woman will be stoned to death if she is caught in the company of a man, not her husband? You know what, we've got a film festival to attend. We've got checks to cash.” – Maureen Callahan [33:39]
• “He’s really, really struggling. What Saudi’s doing for creative empowerment. Are you kidding me?” – Maureen Callahan, on Adrien Brody [38:04]

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5. Sarah Jessica Parker: The Perks of Celebrity Entitlement

[39:17–46:42]

Key Discussion Points

• SJP as Booker Prize Judge:
  Lampoons Sarah Jessica Parker for becoming a Booker Prize judge by simply asking on Instagram, thereby displacing real authors.
• Public’s Reaction:
  Maureen reads and celebrates reader comments voicing dismay over celebrity gimmicks in serious literary spaces.

Notable Quotes

• “There are authors out there who have spent years slaving over their book...and they give four pages of real estate to Sarah Jessica Parker.” – Maureen Callahan [41:24]
• “The issue isn’t whether the celebrity is qualified...the issue is who did they displace?” – Quoting "John Smith," NYT reader [41:43]

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6. Listener Feedback: Meghan Predictions & Media Snark

[46:42–52:28]

Key Discussion Points

• Meghan Critiques Resonate:
  Listeners passionately agree with Maureen’s theory about Meghan Markle’s future allegations.
• Rudolph Reinterpreted:
  Fans support Maureen's interpretation of "Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer" as a fable of bullying.

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7. Out of This World: Astrophysicist Avi Loeb on 3I Atlas

[55:10–80:14]

Key Discussion Points

• 3I Atlas, the “Party Bus” Comet:
  Only the third interstellar object known, larger and with more anomalous behavior than predecessors.
  • Moves perfectly in the plane of the solar system’s planets. Chance of this by accident: 1 in 500.
  • Passes close to Mars, Venus, and Jupiter in a suspiciously precise trajectory.
  • Unusual composition: abundance of nickel but little iron, similar only to industrial metals.
  • Antitail—material plume jets towards the Sun instead of away, which is not characteristic of natural comets.
  • 16-hour periodic “flashing lights” detected—possibly pulsating jets but could be technological.
• Skepticism of NASA's Response:
  Loeb criticizes NASA for downplaying anomalies and providing mediocre, filtered information; emphasizes scientific curiosity and transparency.
• Alien Technology?:
  Loeb is open to the possibility, encourages direct observation (“black swan” logic), but notes evidence is not yet conclusive.
• “Wow” Signal & Radio Surveillance:
  3I Atlas came from the same direction as the famous unexplained “Wow!” signal from 1977; only 0.6% chance this is a coincidence.
• Government Secrecy and UFOs:
  Callahan plays a clip from The Age of Disclosure featuring government and military officials conceding the reality of unexplained aerial technologies.
  Loeb advocates for government transparency if evidence involves phenomena decades old.
• Philosophical Take:
  Loeb frames the search for extraterrestrial intelligence as a push against existential loneliness and encourages optimism—while acknowledging the dangers if the “other” is not friendly.
  • “One reason I’m seeking a higher intelligence out there is because I don’t often find it in academia.” [79:16]

Notable Quotes

• “The foundation of science is the humility to learn, not the arrogance of expertise.” – Professor Avi Loeb [56:54]
• “If you meet a friend, if ever you meet somebody new, and there’s just no history, no connections, no roots. That’s telling you something...It doesn’t have to be Meghan Markle.” – Rob Shooter [16:03]
• “It’s just like being in a party where no one wants to dance with you. This visitor comes in and doesn’t want to dance with the Earth.” – Professor Avi Loeb [63:03]

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Memorable Moments

• Maureen’s Nickname for Meghan Markle: “I now refer to her as a spiritual reptilian.” [08:51]
• Snark about Saudi Film Festival Attendees: “Winners all.” [38:04]
• Professor Loeb’s Humor: “One reason that I’m seeking higher intelligence out there is because I don’t often find it in academia.” [79:58]

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Key Timestamps

• [06:23] - Meghan Markle’s reputation and family drama
• [09:33] - Maureen’s controversial prediction about Meghan’s next move
• [14:00] - Meghan and Harry’s potential future
• [17:07] - Paramount’s cancellation of Ryan Reynolds projects
• [22:20] - Ryan Reynolds and Hugh Jackman’s friendship over
• [25:19] - Golden Globes’ fall from grace
• [33:39] - Hollywood hypocrisy at the Saudi Film Festival
• [36:16] - Dakota Johnson’s tone-deaf Saudi praise
• [55:10] - Avi Loeb discusses 3i Atlas’ unusual features
• [61:19] - “Flashing lights” and speculation on jet propulsion
• [64:31] - The Age of Disclosure documentary reviewed
• [79:16] - Loeb on the quest for cosmic connection

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Tone & Style

The tone is biting, skeptical, and unsparing in critique—peppered with sharp humor and cultural literacy. Callahan does not shy away from controversial speculation or calling out hypocrisy, making for an unapologetically entertaining and incisive listen.

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For the Curious:

If you haven’t listened, this episode offers:

• Sharp, provocative, and often hilarious dissections of celebrity crises and media absurdities
• Candid, forward-looking speculation that mainstream outlets avoid
• An exclusive, jargon-free exploration of the frontiers of space, science, and the enduring human yearning not to be alone

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Summary prepared for readers who want the full color and content without having to endure the ads or the intros.

Transcript

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[Maureen Callahan]

Hello and welcome to the Nerve at Night. I am your host Maureen Callahan and we have a banger for you today. First, gossip reporter extraordinaire Rob Shooter will be here to discuss none other than and among others, not just this one, but that spiritual reptilian force known as Meghan Markle. Is there any, any way back for her reputationally or career wise? Anything, Anything at all. Then we're going to work our way over with Rob to one of the woodshed's resident arsonists. And trust me when I tell you he is in solitary confinement with no access to any flamma flammable objects. That's Ryan Reynolds, who, guess what? Paramount just dropped three of his movies, okay? He was supposed to make three movies for Paramount. They said, you know what, we don't need you, we don't want you. See ya.

And then we've got a little bit more on his one time friendship with Hugh Jackman, which seems to have gone the same way that his wife Blake's friendship has gone with Taylor Swift's. We're not returning calls or texts, I believe, anymore. And I am hopeful that the Nerve has had something to do with that. Okay, then Rob and I are going to talk some Golden Globe nominations. We're going to talk about Shyamalama Ding dong, show up, getting in there and.

All. Just all good stuff, all the best stuff with Rob. Okay, then we're going to talk, meaning you and me. You and I, the troublemakers. We're going to talk about more celebs going over to Chop Chop Square. Not enough that we had a bunch of comics going over there. But now we've got movie stars going over to Saudi Arabia for their little film festival. And when you try to listen to these celebrities explain just how beautiful this country is and how much they love it over there, you're, you're gonna die. You're gonna die. Okay. After that we are going, oh, and we've got an SJP update too. Okay. Plus your feedback. Then.

We'Re going to talk to.

A Harvard astrophysicist. He is a professor named Avi Loeb and he has been following this interstellar comet that is now in our solar system and approaching Earth called Three Eye Atlas. I consider this thing, you know how housewives have sprinter vans and there's always like a party and some conflict going on? I consider three I Atlas like the party bus of interstellar comets or possibly alien technology. Professor Loeb has some thoughts. Okay, so he's going to be joining us and we're also going to talk about the new Amazon doc, the age of disclosure in which, you know, sitting us high level officials are basically like, yeah, we all think there are aliens and they're here. It's going to be a great convo. Okay, are you ready? Are you ready? Let's go.

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Joining us now is a favorite of the Nerve, celebrity reporter extraordinaire, Rob Shooter. If you haven't yet, I don't, I don't want to sound like your mother, like you just, I don't want to. My mother used to be like, don't be a nag. Don't be a haunt. I'm going to be a nag. I'm going to be a haunt. Go check out Rob's substack. It's called Naughty But Nice. And keep an eye out for his juicy upcoming book, which we will be talking all about at the Nerve as it comes closer to publication. It started with a whisper. Welcome back to the Nerve, Rob.

[Rob Shooter]

I love doing.

[Professor Avi Loeb]

Hey.

[Rob Shooter]

Your audience has been so kind to me. You've been so kind to me. And so it's lovely to be back with all the gossip.

[Maureen Callahan]

Well, you know how much the troublemakers love you, as do I. Now, first, I need to talk to you. We did this on Tuesday's Nerve with Kinsey, but I need to talk to you about this from the Hollywood angle, from the career reputational angle. Meghan Markle, her father in an ICU with a leg amputated, and she hasn't even picked up the phone. Rob. And this is on the heels, by the way, of her Netflix special landing with an enormous thud. 0% on rotten tomatoes didn't crack the top 10 in the U.S. what do you make of her future? And is there anything, if you are her publicist, if you are her crisis manager, is there any. Anything you could tell her to do that would help in iota?

[Rob Shooter]

You know what? If you've built a brand on compassion, on kindness, you gotta follow through with it. You can't lecture us all on being sweet to one another during the holidays. And then this happens to your dad and you don't call him. I do understand here that dad is complicated. We've all got messy families. One of the reasons mess Meghan's so messy is that her family's messy. She learned this behavior from someone. So I think before he even called his family members to say he was going to be in hospital, he called the media. And so it's definitely tricky here. However, my argument to Megan would be, listen, if you call him, he will leak it. If you call him, if you're going to visit, there will be a camera crew in the lobby. Who cares? You look great. You sound smart. What are you going to hide? Go out there and you. You wrap yourself around your dad and you see what you can do here. If this moment, if. If this is a moment where she can't step up, then I think a. It will destroy her career. But I think it could destroy her, too. My dad recently passed, and I can't imagine. No. It was so beautiful. Thank you, Maureen. It was such a beautiful time. I jumped on a plane as Often as I could. And I really, really am grateful that I got to spend those, those moments with him. I don't have Meghan's money. I don't have Meghan's power. She could jump on a private plane. She could fly into the Philippines. She could be with him or at least pick up a telephone. This. This is really, really ugly. Forget the human level here, on a PR level. She's not going to recover from this. There's no way she can move forward with a brand that really has been based on this word, compassion and do something here that I think she's going to regret.

[Maureen Callahan]

I couldn't agree with you more. I now refer to her as a spiritual reptilian. I think this is one of the most cold blooded, heartless moves I have ever seen, or rather lack of any. So, you know, I agree with you. You know, my father died of cancer. But, you know, one of the things that we, we really took a lot of solace in and had gratitude for was, was having that time to say all the things that we wanted to say. You know, that is a. That is a gift that not everybody gets.

[Rob Shooter]

Yeah.

[Maureen Callahan]

And she could make her peace with any, any degree of whatever that emotional messiness is. Personally, I just think she's embarrassed by the guy because he's overweight and he's not good looking.

[Rob Shooter]

And.

[Maureen Callahan]

And I think that that's. That's as deep as she goes. That's as deep as she goes. Now, I also want to talk to you about a theory I have. I discussed this with Kinsey yesterday, and I want to get it pumped into the cultural bloodstream, because I see it coming and it's a conversation a lot of us in the media have amongst ourselves. But it. I don't ever see it theorized in print. And I can understand why. My theory of the case, just my prediction, just my opinion, is that when Thomas dies, Meghan is going to claim that he sexually abused her. And that is why she was such a heartless bitch. And she won't do it now while he's alive to defend himself. And I hope that Thomas Markle is putting his version of events on pen and paper, down on paper. I really do. Tell me your thoughts.

[Rob Shooter]

Yeah, that's a bombshell. But I think you said it beautifully. There's been lots of discussions in this, in the media world. Nobody has printed it, nobody has said it out loud outside of these private conversations. But I think that's one of the beautiful thing here at the nerve you bring people, including me, into conversations we'd have over a drink. This is journalists talking. This is people who have worked in this business a really long time and.

[Maureen Callahan]

Who know what's coming around the corner.

[Rob Shooter]

Maureen, we are not hired models like on Entertainment Tonight. We're real reporters. You make sure that all your guests are real here. And I think that this is a conversation that has been happening. Listen, she's got to do something. He's in a really bad shape. He's. He's not going to be with us for, for much longer. When he goes, how does she explain it? Meghan is a strategist. She's always got a strategy. So she's already thinking, I'm sure, about how does she spin this? It's very easy for her to turn up at a funeral and cry and wear black and be the grieving daughter when nobody can, can challenge her or respond to her. I can't imagine how she's going to explain away her lack of sympathy, her lack of empathy towards her dad. Unless, and this is when I think you're onto something. Unless something really ugly happened. Not he sold a tabloid picture, right? Not that he, he couldn't find the right tuxedo to wear to the wedding. It has to be something that is massive. And when you think about things that are massive, what you mentioned is certainly one. I would not be at all surprised if something like that isn't said. The problem with that, though, is that Meghan now has so little credibility that if she does say it, if she comes up with an explanation, I think you've got potentially one. I can't think of many others. It's got to be that big to explain her behavior. How then do you. Do we take it seriously from somebody that has cried wolf so many times, she's a liar. That sometimes just has not been true. We've just proved that it's not true. So I would, I would caution Megan here if this is a strategy. If you're planning to release a bombshell to reveal why you and your dad are so distant, make sure, my friend, that it's buttoned up, that it's truthful, that you can prove it. Because people are not going to give you the benefit of the doubt.

[Maureen Callahan]

Honestly, Rob, I, I think that's what's coming. And I would like. I, I at the. We here at the Nerve are going to throw down the channel the challenge like Megan. We are, we are coming at this as cynically and heartlessly as Megan has conducted herself low these many years. If this is a claim that she is going to plan, to allege. Do it now while your father is still alive and can defend himself. Do it now. Otherwise, if you do it after he dies, be prepared to be met with revulsion. This is her playbook. Her MO Is to take any cruelty that she has leveled out and turn it back around on herself and make herself the victim. And we're all supposed to feel sorry for her, And I don't feel sorry for her. And to your point, by the way, you know, Kinsey mentioned this on the show the other day, and I absolutely agree with it. Harry should be taking notes because this is another conversation that everyone in the media has behind closed doors amongst ourselves. When she leaves, Harry, and she will, she is going to allege our theory, just our predictions, just our opinions, that he abused her and she had no reason, she had no choice but to go. That's what she's going to allege, that he hit her, that he was a drunk and a drug addict and he put the children in danger. Get your ducks in a row, Harry. Fucking dimwit.

[Rob Shooter]

Yeah, I think Megan Meghan is a. Is a historian of Hollywood. My friends that know her, people that have worked with her in the past tell me that she does the work, she does the research. And so I think that after seeing how effectively Angelina Jolie trashed Brad Pitt, I think that she's now got a precedent. She knows now how to maneuver in this world of celebrity. She's. She's pretty. For somebody that makes so many bad decisions, she spends a lot of time thinking about it. And so I think you're right here. I. I don't know if I'd want to be alone in a room with Meghan. Not that anything would ever happen, but what she would say might happen. I just. She's become somebody that is so untrustworthy, that is so dangerous that that doesn't appear to have any guardrails. We can all exaggerate. We can all be a little naughty. But I'm convinced, like you, Maureen, there is almost nothing she wouldn't do to help herself. Somebody reminded me today, and I forgot about this. Remember just after they were engaged and she went to Australia on a big tour and everybody was so happy with her. She was the toast of the town. She was the celebrity she always wanted to be. And she came out on stage and everybody was screaming her name. And reporters saw her turn to Harry and say, I can't believe I'm not getting paid for this.

[Maureen Callahan]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Rob Shooter]

That was early on. Early on, she told us who. Who she is. Who she was. I think it's about time a lot of us really listen to this. It's. It's not going to end well. And I think that if you can treat your dad like this, you can probably do it to anybody.

[Maureen Callahan]

I agree with you. I don't think there's anyone in her world who is safe. I think that. I think she's an extremely dark person. And she lives for fame and money and power and adulation. Human beings, no matter how close to her, come separate. And I'm just gonna say it. That goes for her kids, too. That goes for her kids, too. I'm sorry.

[Rob Shooter]

There's no one around her, is there? Is there, Maureen? Even celebrities we've met, a lot of celebrities are a pain in the bottom. They're really just toxic people. But you can see they've got a few friends from school. They've got a couple of girlfriends that they've been friends with for 10. Meghan's got nobody. There's nobody in her life. There's not that one person. And so that is a red flag for all of us. If ever you meet a friend, if ever you meet somebody new, and there's just no history, there's no connections, there's no roots. That's telling you something, everybody. It doesn't have to be Meghan Markle. We meet people all the time. It's a red flag if you meet somebody who has no roots. Be cautious.

[Maureen Callahan]

Well said. Moving on to our favorite. Well, he's got competition in Jon Hamm, arsonist Ryan Reynolds. Now, I would like to think the nerve has a little something to do with, you know, what's going on in the culture. Paramount dropped him. He was supposed to. Was it one film or three? You tell me, Rob.

[Rob Shooter]

It includes combination of three. It was a package deal of three.

[Maureen Callahan]

So Paramount axed, before they ever got off the ground, three planned films starring Ryan Reynolds, including a Ferris Bueller spinoff. Rob, what do we know about the reasons why?

[Rob Shooter]

We know that he's a pitching machine. So Ryan is a much better business person than he is an actor. And I don't think there's any shade. It's not the great. But he's made himself a very wealthy, very, very important figure in Hollywood. People that know him, that I've spoken to, all say that he is a hustler. He knows how to make a dollar. He knows how to invest in a gin company and advertising company. His real talent is very similar to Meghan Markle. His talent is in promoting himself. And he's done a really good job of that. So I was told he oversold these projects. So often in Hollywood, people have a first look deal, they agree to stuff and then they realize when they crunch the numbers and they see that this probably isn't going to work. The mistake everybody always makes dealing with show business is thinking that it's personal. It's not, it's always financial. They look at the numbers, they look at the projections, they look at what your other movies has met have made. And Ryan really has had a very spotty career. I know Deadpool changed everything and we all think of him as really this sort of action star. That's not the case. He's had a lot of movies that have not done very well, particularly the movies where he's trying to be a little bit more serious or a little bit more artistic. I love that you really hammered this home on your show. When these celebrities want to make these arty, farty, Oscar winning movies, when they want to remake Ferris Bueller's Day off, when they want to remake Dead Poet Society, there's just no appetite for that. The way that Ryan will make money and will keep making movies is by putting on that very tight red Deadpool outfit and keep churning those out until we're sick of them, which we will be eventually. But at the minute I think him trying to venture into other stuff and do remakes of movies that he likes is just something that business wise, it's about the business. The Hollywood works with anybody. He's a bit of, a, bit of a blowhard. He's, he's definitely full of himself. But that's not stopped actors before. What stops actors is when they stop delivering people buying tickets. And Ryan, there's, there's a lot of question marks. Can he, can he still sell a movie? Everything that's gone on with his wife and Justin Baldoni, that must have had an impact on how Hollywood feels about him. So for the time being, this big deal, it's no more.

[Maureen Callahan]

You know, before we get into the latest, the latest breaking news on the Blake Ryan, Justin Baldoni front. That was my question to you. You know, you just said it with Meghan Markle. Like who would want to be alone in a room with her? Not because of what would happen, but because of what she would say. Say what she might, I should say what she might say would happen. And I think the same thing holds true. Like who wants to get in business on a film with Ryan and Blake Lively? They are a, they come as a package deal and they are Trying to destroy Justin Baldoni's career before it ever gets off the ground. They are trying to bomb it with napalm. Who would trust either one of them?

[Rob Shooter]

Yeah, yeah. In Hollywood, this is a big deal. There is a level of trust, there's an intimacy, there's a immediacy of the Hollywood business. It's a really small town. If ever you go out to la, if you ever go out to Hollywood, it's like a little village. It really is. It's almost like a high school. It feels like a sorority, a fraternity. They all know each other. And the one thing that they'll put up with, they will put up with bad people, they'll put up with bullies. They won't put up with somebody that they do not trust. And I think that Blake and Ryan have proven that the way that they pulled Taylor Swift into this. Arguably one of their best friends, somebody that apparently they adored. And. No, what did they do? They decided that they were going to invite Justin Beldoni over for what seems to me like an ambush. And who would they have sitting there? Taylor Swift. Nobody told Taylor. I imagine Taylor got a text from Blake saying, pop over. You're in the neighborhood, come over. We're having some wine, we're hanging out. Come and join us. And then when she gets there, this happens. Hollywood does not want that. They have hurt their careers with this relentless lawsuit. Even if they win this, they're going to lose. They're going to lose because they've destroyed themselves. And it's that. It's that. It's that barometer, isn't it? It's such a good, good measure. Would I feel comfortable in a room with somebody? Not because anything's going to happen, but would what they would say afterwards and do I want to get into business somebody? Films are so expensive to make. They're all about partnerships. Not one person ever prod a film. A committee, A committee produces a film. And would you want that in your business? When I think about my job and where I work, do I want Ryan Reynolds having my back in a moment where I need some help? And I think we can all agree the answer, the answer's no. But they've done this themselves. Let's be really clear here. They've done this themselves. I'm not even convinced that they've figured that out yet. I think they still, still don't understand the implications of what's really going on. It's not good.

[Maureen Callahan]

I don't think they understand either. And to your point, you know, we've learned that Hugh Jackman. We've since learned that Hugh Jackman was in that Tribeca loft along with Taylor Swift when they were giving Justin this reportedly bullying dressing down. And Hugh Jackman, whose Brand is also Mr. Nice Guy, whose brand took a huge hit when he left his wife for his co star. And we're all surprised again that it wasn't for a man. But you know, he can't afford another reputational ding. He just can't afford it. And he has not been seen in Ryan Reynolds's vicinity for months. For months now.

[Rob Shooter]

Yeah, Yeah. I was at opening night of Hugh Jackman on Broadway in the Music man and they're sitting six row center waving and throwing blowing kisses was Ryan Reynolds. They were best friends. They were together all the time. Silence. It's gone. It's gone. Part of that though, and let's be honest here, because we're on a great show where we always tell the truth. Those relationships are always a little inflated. They're not ever quite as lovey dovey, as close as what you. As what they are pretended to be. So I know Ryan Rob, you mean.

[Maureen Callahan]

You mean that even when they're hanging all over each other and like Taylor and Blake are practically making out at a Chiefs game and Ryan's practically got his hands down Hugh's pants at said game that they're not that close?

[Rob Shooter]

Do you know who I've not seen together in a couple of weeks too, since the movie came out. Where's Ariana and Cynthia Erivo? Why are these two not going out? I've not seen them hang out since the day that movie was released. But I digress. I know I've not seen them. Remember Pam Anderson and Liam Neeson? Oh, remember when they were in a.

[Maureen Callahan]

Movie they were duping everybody they've not seen.

[Rob Shooter]

So, so there's a little bit of that going on here. But, but with Ryan and Hugh. Hugh's been hit just, just now, right now. He was not nominated for a Golden Globe. That's his audience. Hugh Jackman is not an Oscar winning actor. He's a Golden Globe not nominated. People are really cautious about you. The last thing he needs is a stench of Ryan Reynolds around him too. So they're gone.

[Maureen Callahan]

All right. We were going to talk about Justin Baldoni telling Blake Lively he was circumcised, but we can save that for a later day. And frankly, I think in the grand scheme of things, I don't really care. But I want to ask you about the Globes. The Globes, first of all, I don't even know what project you would have been nominated for. But when the nominations were announced on Monday, most people had the same reaction, which is, what are these movies? I've never heard of them or I've never. I have no desire to see them. And the only things I care about were the things that were streaming. You know, like Timothy Shyamalan. Ding Dong got his nomination. I hope he's happy. He won't be till he gets that Oscar. But what. When it. When is Hollywood going to get the memo? And what does this mean to. For what looks like the proposed deal for Netflix to purchase Warner Brothers?

[Rob Shooter]

Big questions there. The first one is Golden Globes. I've been many times. It was delicious. It was such a sloppy.

[Maureen Callahan]

It was so fun.

[Rob Shooter]

Oh, it was so much fun. And then they all got in trouble because they're corrupt. And then they try to fix it, and now they've changed who they're nominated. I blame this on the people who try to fix the Globes. Leave it.

[Maureen Callahan]

Oh, and then they went woke, right? They did wokeism also kill it. And like Tom Cruz gave back his Golden Globe very theatrically. Oh, yeah.

[Rob Shooter]

The thing about the Globes that I love, they've destroyed. They've tried to make the Globes legit. And when you make something legit and you change the people that vote, you get all these foreign movies that we've never, ever heard of. And so part of the joy of the Globes for me, historically, was it was the movies that we would go to see because they wouldn't care less. They didn't care If Mission Impossible 1, the tourists with Angelina, won one year. Like, they just picked movies that would make great television at that broadcast. And so they always wanted stars there. Then they fixed it. I use that in quotes. They fixed it. They ruined it. So now it's the same snobs who vote on the Oscars and all those other tedious, boring award shows. This year, I think there's four foreign movies up for Best Picture, and all the movies that we saw are not up. And so it's the Globes is gone, and they destroyed it by trying to make it legitimate. Go back to being this sloppy, messy, fabulous night where we could all sit with our friends. It's now too, too buttoned up. I think it's going to be tricky, though, because I think now that it's really hard to get people to watch an award show if you don't care about who the award goes to. And so the years they give awards to Titanic the years they at least nominate Avatar. Big movies, big movies that we've all seen. Hey, Wicked wasn't nominated for the category of best picture. And so, like a massive movie, when you stop nominating the movies that we see, we're gonna stop caring about the awards that you give out. So they're, they're, they've, they've ruined the Golden Globes here by trying to make it more legit. I love that it was totally illegitimate. I met a lot of people that voted. I think the number was so small you could actually meet them all. Like, I was part of campaigns in Hollywood where we'd fly all the voters to Vegas or to a fabulous dinner or I think Cher would, say, put on a private concert just for Golden Globe voters. And I think she won. And so Tom Ford got in trouble when he said he directed a movie. The, the fashion guy, he directed a movie, the designer. And he sent everybody a $60 bottle of Tom Ford fragrance. He won.

[Maureen Callahan]

That means it was a tiny bottle, though. His fragrance costs a lot of money. And I love Tom Ford and I love his movies. I think he's a genius. But it was like a sample size, a little something, but like this drip in the magazines.

[Rob Shooter]

So I think here the joy of the Globes is just that it was messy, and now they're trying to make it not so messy. And the problem is with that is we get all these dull movies nominated. Dull, dull, dull.

[Maureen Callahan]

Yeah. I couldn't agree with you more. The Globes was really fun. Back when everybody went and got drunk, everybody would be drinking at their tables.

[Rob Shooter]

I loved it.

[Maureen Callahan]

And like, Ricky Gervais is the last bastion of, you know, like, insulting them all. My favorite Ricky, my favorite Ricky in intro of all time, he said, ladies and gentlemen, the only person that Ben Affleck has not been unfaithful to, Matt Damon.

The crowd went electric.

[Rob Shooter]

It's great. It's great. I think I've still got high hopes for Nikki Glaser. It's hard, though, making fun of people in the audience that we don't know. One of the, the most nominated films that I have not seen, the new Leonardo DiCaprio movie.

[Maureen Callahan]

Nobody seen that movie. Nobody.

[Rob Shooter]

That means Leo's going to be there, but that's going to be fun. I hope she makes fun of Leo and his dating life, and I think she'll go there. I think it's still gonna be a fun night, but it's, it's, it's not, it's not what it was. I, I, I actually think now it probably is a better predictor for the Oscars because now that the people that are voting on it. I loved all the journalists that used to vote on this. They weren't even bloggers. Like, you couldn't Google them. They were like, my aunt in Birmingham, England, voted on the Golden Globes. It was just.

[Maureen Callahan]

I know it was like everyone was in witness protection, you know, but they were all. But this was the thing that was great about the Globes because everybody knew the deal. It was so nakedly transactional. It was like, remember, it was like that year Sharon Stone was like, God damn, man, give me an Oscar for a casino. Give it to me. You know? And I don't know who she paid off or how, like, but she worked that for a Globe. And that's the kicker, right? It really mattered so much to these people that they get a Golden Globe that they would do all this crazy.

[Rob Shooter]

Shit they would do that was special. I remember when I was working with JLo, there were special Golden Globe receptions that Harvey Weinstein would set up and they'd walk in and we literally handed them like. Like champagne and caviar, maybe even cash, maybe not. But it was. It was that explicit that it was a movie in itself and it was part of Hollywood that just made. Made me giggle. It's gone now. It's another boring corporate night that I think Tina Brown, Tina Fey said. Said best. It could be an email. The whole night could just be an email.

[Maureen Callahan]

Completely correct. Another. Another spiritual godmother of the Nerve. T. Thank you, Rob. Thank you so much. It's been such a great session with you and we're gonna see you soon for the year in Gossip over at the Nerve.

[Rob Shooter]

Hey, thanks for plugging the substack. It makes such a difference. Thank you for following. You're the best. This show makes me laugh out loud. Have a happy holiday. If I don't see you until after.

[Maureen Callahan]

That, same to you, Rob. Same to you. And we will be back in a minute.

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[Maureen Callahan]

We are back. Now, before we get to all of your incredible feedback and when I tell you there were two topics that most of you troublemakers really responded to, I bet you can guess what they are. Completely unrelated, but really, really passionate feedback. First, we must attend to some prosecutions. Okay? Number one.

This month, very recently, a bunch of celebrities, far more women than you really couldn't even countenance, went over to Chop Chop Square. You know why Saudi Arabia is throwing their Red Sea International Film Festival? And you know, so what, you guys? So what if women have no rights? I mean, they can drive, but I mean, you know, so what if you can't wear anything that might expose a square of skin? So what if people get beheaded in the town square for shoplifting? Or maybe they're just getting like a hand chopped off. Maybe I'm overreacting. Maybe I'm being a little too harsh. So what if a woman will be stoned to death if she is caught in the company of a man, not her husband? You know what, we've got a film festival to attend. We've got checks to cash. You know, this thing was thrown. You know, I went, I went and looked back. I'm not quite sure how long it's been going on. But in 2023 a bunch of really famous celebs went over there for it. And you know, is anybody surprised Will Smith would have done it? I mean that guy, you know, he'll do anything for a buck. But Gwyneth Paltrow, does she really need the money? Does she really need the money? Johnny Depp, I mean, maybe he does. He's very expensive divorce as we know. Anyway, so we're going to take a look at Dakota Johnson now. We at the Nerve have been done with Dakota Johnson since we showed you guys the.

That footage of her doing a promotional interview with her co stars in some movie nobody saw. Because that's the way it goes these days. Nobody's going to the movies. Nobody cares. No wonder why these people are like lowering their already low standards and going over to Chop chop, know what I'm saying? But you know, she was like, like her fingers were all up in her little co stars, you know, she, I think she was an adult, but she looks like a girl in her hair and her neck. And like even Jon Hammond, who is up against Ryan for arsonist of 2025. Celebrity arsonists, who knew? But even John Hamm was like, stop that, you're being a total creep. Get your hands off this girl. Here's Dakota Johnson talking about how again. Well, I'm not going to spoil it for you. We'll talk about it on the back end. Here we go. You know, in the States it feels really.

[Professor Avi Loeb]

Grim.

[Maureen Callahan]

And even in the less than 24 hours that I've been here, I have.

[Commercial Announcer]

A renewed faith in cinema.

[Maureen Callahan]

In Saudi Arabia. Are you effing kidding me, lady? Listen, this trip of an actress should not feel that Hollywood is grim by comparison because they're employing her and I have no idea why. She's not a box office draw, she's not a great actress and she's a charisma vacuum. So explain it to me. I don't know, maybe she's trying to like plant some seeds in case she has to go and you know, the only employment she could get would be in Saudi Arabia, you know, and this is all such bullshit. I was talking to somebody who has been to Saudi Arabia, a woman, a troublemaker, okay, was talking to me about it and told me she didn't even feel safe in the airport.

So you know, get out. Get the fuck out. Here is Adrien Brody last seen tossing his saliva filled chunk of chewing gum to his girlfriend Harvey Weinstein's ex wife, Georgina Chapman as he ascended the stairs on the Oscar stage to collect his best actor trophy. And she was merely the receptacle for the contents of his mouth, which he should really.

Shut. Here we go.

[Rob Shooter]

Just wonderful to be here and witness.

[Maureen Callahan]

The evolution of the headings. Chop chops and what's up. Struggling in film and.

Creative human rights.

[Rob Shooter]

Empowerment for so many people.

[Maureen Callahan]

Whoa, okay, stop right there. He's really, really struggling. What Saudi's doing for creative empowerment. Are you kidding me? And you know, Hollywood wonders why it's dying. Hollywood wonders why, you know, look no further. They're all eating their own. They're killing themselves. It's, they're all on like a. It feels like they're all on just like a massive collective suicide mission. I'll name and shame some of the others who showed up on a de armas who it seems wants to be famous in a way that is just pathetic. You know, we're dating Tom Cruise. We're going over to Saudi. What are you doing? Okay, Jessica Alba, Queen Latifah. What is she doing? She's an out gay woman. What is she doing over there? Juliet Binoche. I mean, I think Juliet Binoche was also one of the actresses who stood up for Roman Polanski. I could be wrong, but if she, if that's true, then it all tracks. Kirsten Dunst. Kirsten Dunst. Uma Thurman, Vin Diesel, Rita Ora winners all. Okay, now on to our favorite sprightly 900 year old heroine. Because I opened up the Sunday New York Times Book Review.

And you know, one of the things I hate is they do a, they do a weekly feature where they ask an author like what they're reading and they ask them all kinds of questions about what kind of a reader they are and their favorite writers and all of this stuff. And increasingly, and it has been this way for many years, they just give that segment to like a celebrity who had like a ghost written book. And I hate it. I don't want to, I don't want, I don't care what any given actress is reading. I want, I want to hear what an actual writer who sits down and bleeds at the typewriter or the computer every day actually does. That's what I want. Now, Sarah Jessica Parker, she got a four page feature, okay? And I'm holding it up. I ripped it out. And you know, remember when we showed that Sarah's clap back to the nerve, we were like, there's no way this trick is reading on the subway. And she did this whole photo shoot and video shoot in the subway. It clearly was for the New York Times, you know, and we're just like, you know, we may be collecting our AARP benefits, but we're still a cool, sprightly chick, right? We're just Carrie Bradshaw incarnate. So here she is on the New York subway. Okay, so she was a judge for this year's Booker Prize. That is a very esteemed panel. Now, the Booker Prize, I'm gonna say, they usually award to duds. If a book wins the Booker Prize, just don't even read it, okay? It's about like, you know, someone. Like, it's like, it involves poverty, it involves being interfered with sexually as a child. It involves probably drug abuse, suicide. You know, they're downers. They're down. It's like the Oscars, you know, Gotta ugly yourself up and get real serious if you want any kind of award. Now I'm just gonna quote a little bit from this piece, okay? It's like a multi page interview with Sarah Jessica Parker. Her year of fucking reading. Get out. Okay. Three years ago, Sarah Jessica Parker posted a plea on the Booker Prize's Instagram page. She wanted to judge the prestigious award. Oh, let me try. She said, now this is some bullshit.

By these rights, because she went on the IG page and said, oh, let me try, I'd love to do it. Is she a writer? No. Is she an editor? No. Does she now have a vanity imprint that publishes books that land like a thud in the culture? Sure, but that would be like me.

Going to the Instagram account of like the Emmy Awards, the television Academy, you know, Arts and Sciences committee, saying, you know what, you guys, I'd really love to vote this year. Why don't you just let me do it? Do you think for a hot second they'd let me in, even though we know I am an actress now? But no, I would never even think to do it. But the, the entitlement here. I'm a celebrity. Let me do it. Okay, now this is the best part. Now the actor and publisher has done just that last month in London. Parker, you can visualize this. You're in a ballroom and the winner of the Booker Prize is getting named and awarded. And this is going to be the biggest moment of this author's life thus far. And what does Sarah Jessica Parker do? You quote, pushed herself out of her seat to get a clear view as David Salazi, author of the winning novel Flesh, rushed on stage to collect the Booker Prize. Okay? So she's making herself a spectacle. She is drawing eyes to herself. She's got to just get up out of her chair and look around. Oh my God, someone's getting an award at the awards ceremony that I was a panelist on. Listen, this woman can just right off, okay? Then she says that after spending a year of reading 153 books and having to ignore her family the entire time in order to accomplish said stuff, while no small feat doing press for the abomination known as and just like that, she's now sad. Quote I was looking up Elizabeth Kubler Ross's stages of loss and their denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance. I can't figure out where I am. Again, this is not a bright woman. Those stages of grief were debunked years and years and years ago. You're singing from an old playbook that is completely irrelevant. And you know, again, this is, this is a waste of real estate. There are authors out there who have spent years slaving over their book and they're hoping, praying for a review in the New York Times Book Review. And they. They give four pages of real estate to Sarah Jessica Parker. New York Times Reader Comments I think troublemakers are in here. Laurie from Mystic, Connecticut. Funny that this article about a celebrity judge gets more headlines than the actual prize winner, who I imagine devoted far more time to actually producing something. Yeah, producing something out of nothing. Not easy. Pete West Hollywood, California I would bet Troublemaker Central on the West Coast. As if SJP rides the subway. Cute images though. John Smith from Springfield. I think this is a pseudonym. And I think Springfield Stateless was chosen. Much like the Simpsons who live in Springfield. Stateless, I quote. The issue around these types of celebrity gimmicks isn't whether or not the celebrity is qualified to do the job, which she is not. The issue is who did they displace? Yes, John, yes. Being named a Booker Prize judge is like getting into Harvard or getting a job at an investment bank. It is a potentially life changing event. Whenever a person like Parker slides into a job like that, she is displacing someone who actually paid their dues and could have really used the break. Could not have said it better myself. That is the problem with celebrity culture in a nutshell. Now on to your emails. My favorite thing, subject matter. You read my mind. Multiple exclamation points. Dear Maureen, oh my God. Watched your podcast today and not even exaggerating. I had the same thought five minutes before you said it. I bet Meghan Markle will claim abuse by her father once he's dead to explain her behavior and gain sympathy. I can't Believe you said it, but I am so glad you did. Hopefully this will make her think twice. Yes, Troublemaker Maureen. Yes. Thanks for prosecuting the shit out of this. Sincerely, Troublemaker Aaron. You are more than welcome. Oh, my God, Maureen, I think you and I are simpatico. Your thoughts on what the Megs will do to smear her father after he inevitably passes are exactly what I have been suspecting for months now. Yes, she will denigrate his name for her benefit. And that schmuck she married will sit there rubbing her back and calling her so brave. And then she will dump him. Just my opinion. Hi, from Oregon Autumn. Oregon Autumn. Thank you. And so I'm going to tell you two things.

[Professor Avi Loeb]

The.

[Maureen Callahan]

The feedback. We got the strongest feedback from the most recent nerve. Tuesday's Nerve was to our Meghan Markle segment in which I spoke to Kinsey and have just spoken to Rob about the same thing. And we've got to pump this into the cultural bloodstream, the air supply, the water supply, so that when Meghan Markle tries to do this, the entire cultural reaction is, shut the fuck up. We don't believe you. She is going to claim after her father dies. Just my prediction, just my opinion. That her father sexually abused her.

And the troublemakers all agree, all agree that that is the likely next play in her playbook. Number two was my interpretation of Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer as a story of bullying and abuse. Truly, you guys were all in. I love you guys. I love you guys. Okay. From a troublemaker named Jane K. I consider myself more of a troublemaker lurker, mainly because I'm not terribly familiar with the celebrities you discuss. Not required, Jane. But she loves our guests. Bill from Brooklyn. Kinsey, Rob Shooter.

Now, concerning Meghan Markle's Netflix show, her horrible Christmas show. I have a background, Jane says, in music production and music composition. She has worked with wonderful producers and mixing engineers. Whoever is in charge of the music for Megan's show should go directly to the woodshed. I suspect, though, Jane, they might be troublemakers. They might. They might have been with her, okay? And this is why. It is incredible amateur garbage, as Jane says. But they might. I think they were trying to show how weak Megan's actual content and the inanities that she spouts and those stupid puns are. And you know, there's no conversation really happening. So it's like, what do you do? Just turn up the music? It's like at a party, right? You just turn it up and hope nobody notices that, like, you're out of Food and you're out of booze. Are they deaf? The mixing is loud. Covers the dialogue. Maybe a good thing. My thoughts exactly. It's always front and center. It's as if they are trying to bang you over the head with a cast iron pan. And the music choices are equally garbage. Absolutely no subtlety, particularly in the Christmas show. Perhaps they couldn't afford better music licensing or just didn't care. I think Netflix wanted to spend not a single penny more. Jenna Bush Hager, new co host, Troublemaker. Read my mind.

Hi, Maureen. I am a Kathy Lee fan. Likewise. I used to watch her and Hoda from time to time. You've really opened my eyes to morning television and the cesspool. It can be my pleasure. Happy to do so. As discussed, my aim is that the nerve becomes the morning. The asteroid, rather. That destroys morning television. I saw a video clip on YouTube about Jenna and friends and Jenna's new co host. Out of. Of all the people Jenna has worked with, Scarlett Johansson among them. And listen, I don't think you can pick a movie star for that slot. It has to be somebody that people can relate to. But she was very good. She was very good.

They picked someone who is already employed there. Of course they did. They're not adding another salary. Are you kidding? Television is linear. Television is dying. It felt underwhelming to me. I'm happy for Chenille Jones, though. She's had a tough year. Listen, Chanel Jones, I'm sure is a very nice woman. And her husband passed away and she's got young kids and I feel for her. I really do. That said, a job like that is not a consolation prize. And Chanel is a charisma vacuum. I do not understand how she has a job as a morning television show host on a major network. I do not. And I don't. I think they were. I think they were maybe looking to, you know, check some boxes. You know what I'm saying? You know what I'm saying? And Jenna Bush isn't really a bright star. I'm sorry. She is not a sparkling conversationalist. She really needed somebody who could do the heavy lifting over there. Chenille ain't it. Okay, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Okay. Maureen, I agree wholeheartedly with your critique of Rudolph. I am curious if you would add commentary regarding the island of Misfit Toys. I should. We should do that, right? Let's do that. I'd have to. I'd have to take another look again. I actually find it really hard to watch Rudolph like my heart kind of breaks. Like I'm still like my inner child is like bleeding for poor Rudolph. Thank you for brightening my day four times a week. Troublemaker Michelle, thanks for hanging out with us. Okay. Hi Maureen. I copied you. I call it the Maureen ring. And Heather bought the Kenneth J. Lane double like gumball size pearl ring. And you know, Heather, funnily enough, I'm not wearing it at the moment because in making a point probably regarding Megan and her forthcoming claims of abuse that I'm predicting just my prediction. I hit the table so hard that the large pearl gumball flew right off and it's currently over at the jeweler getting reattached. It's my own amputation, you know, not to make light of what's happening to Thomas Markle. It's terrible. Anyway, keep your feedback coming. Email me at maureenvilmakeremedia.com or DM me on Instagram at Maureen Callahan, writer or at the Nerve Show. Over at the Nerve show, you can also vote on whether producer Marlena should do a little chop chop herself and get some bangs. Remember, subscribe to the nerves substack thenerveshow.com Coming up.

Your your own astronaut, by which I mean me. I'm going to take the Nerve back out into space. See you in a minute.

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[Rob Shooter]

Before.

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[Maureen Callahan]

We are back with a conversation I have been dying to have with the Harvard astronomer Avi Loeb, astrophysicist, I should say. We are going to talk about the comet known as 3i Atlas. I think a lot of people are saying 3 1i was until very recently. It's 3i. And this is only the third confirmed interstellar object that has been detected in our solar system. The difference is that this one, since it was first spotted in July.

Is that it's not behaving like any other interstellar object NASA has ever seen. So we're going to talk to Avi. He is the Frank B. Baird Jr. Professor of Science at Harvard University. He is the best selling author of Extraterrestrial Interstellar. He earned a PhD in physics from the Hebrew University of Jerusalem and serves as a head of the Galileo Project and founding director of Harvard's Black Hole Initiative. Professor Loeb, welcome to the Nerve.

[Professor Avi Loeb]

Thanks for having me.

[Maureen Callahan]

So I see you've been making the rounds because everybody is fascinated with what exactly this thing is. And while NASA is insisting that this is purely a comet. It's a rock, it's a hunk of ice and whatever else, gases, you're saying, no, no, no, no, no. This thing does not behave the way that we understand these things to behave.

[Professor Avi Loeb]

Yeah. Because the foundation of science is the humility to learn, not the arrogance of expertise. And there cannot be an expert to interstellar objects because we've seen only two before this one. And so the sample we have is only two and this one is quite unusual relative to the previous ones. For example, it's very massive. It's a million times more massive than the first one that we found in 2017 and about a thousand times more massive than the second one that we found in 2019. And then it moves in the plane of the planets around the Sun. The chance of that happening at random is 1 in 500.

[Maureen Callahan]

What does that mean, moves at the plane?

[Professor Avi Loeb]

It means that if you look at its trajectory, it's aligned with the plane of the planets move all in the same plane because they form out of some debris left over from the formation of the sun, some gas that was in a plane. So all the planets in the solar system are orbiting the sun roughly within the same plane, within a few degrees of the same plane. So they move around the sun in the same plane. And this object arrived exactly in that plane to within 5 degrees. And the chance of that, of that is very small. And the question is, was this path designed as part of a reconnaissance mission designed by some intelligence? That's the plane you want to go through if you wish to pass close to planets, monitor them, perhaps deposit some devices in the solar system. And indeed, it passed very close to Mars on October 3rd and close to Venus a few weeks later. And then it will pass closest to Jupiter on March 16, 2026. And it was on the opposite side of the sun relative to Earth when it came closest to The sun on October 29. And the question is whether that path of this object was planned. It also arrives to Jupiter at a very special distance where Jupiter's gravity dominates over the Sun's gravity. And why would it arrive exactly at that separation from Jupiter? The chance of that happening at random is 1 in 26,000. So altogether, you know, there are certain some peculiar features about its path, and that's why it attracted my attention. That's why there is so much interest in it. And then there were some other anomalies, strange features of it. For example, there was nickel with very little iron. And we find nickel and iron in similar proportions in all known astrophysical objects. And the only place where we find nickel with very little iron is, is industrial production of nickel alloys. That's something technological. And there is also a jet coming from this object towards the sun. And usually we find the tails around comets where the gas or dust coming out of the comet is pushed away from the sun. In this case it's an anti tail. And the question is, what is the reason that this object has an anti tail? And it was true Back when it approached the sun, back in July. July, when we observed it with the Hubble Space Telescope. And actually, just a few days ago, there was another image from the Hubble Space Telescope after it passed close to the sun. And still there is a jet pointing towards the sun. Now, it's opposite to the direction of motion because the object is receding from the sun. So the question is, why is there this antithel? Why is the composition of the material around this object so anomalous? It may well be a very unusual rock, you know, that we happen to be lucky because it's big, it's easy to observe, and it's coming in the. It's passing near all the space assets that we have in Space assets.

[Maureen Callahan]

I love it. Space assets. Now, let me ask you this. I have read that it's flashing lights, that there have been lights detected seemingly flashing from this object. I mean, it kind of sounds like a party bus in space.

[Professor Avi Loeb]

Well, every 16 hours. Indeed, it seems to have periodic variations. And that was true in July. We haven't measured anything more recently. But the first interpretation that was given is maybe this is a rotating object. So we see variations in the amount of sunlight reflected from it as it rotates. But the problem is that the object itself contributes very little to the light that we see. Most of the light that we see comes from the plume of material around it that it created. And so the better interpretation is that it actually there are jets coming from it. And the jets are pulsating, sort of like a heartbeat, where instead of blood being sent through the veins of our body, in the case of the heart, in this case, you have jets pumping gas and dust into the surrounding plume or glow around this object. And they do it periodically. And the fundamental question about the jets, we now see many of them pointed in different directions is whether they are produced by pockets of ice that get sublimated when they are illuminated by sunlight. Or maybe these are thrusters that are used by technological objects and we don't know, and we might find very soon, as we get more data, when the object will come closest to Earth on December 19th.

[Maureen Callahan]

Oh, okay. So it's very, very close. Now, I read that it's going to. The distance between this object and earth is about 173 million miles. Is that right?

[Professor Avi Loeb]

Yeah, It's a large distance primarily because, you know, it came closest to the sun when the Earth was on the opposite side. So the sun was between us, and it was hiding behind the sun when perhaps it was doing something that it didn't want us to see, but because of that, we're getting a little closer to it now as the object is moving away from the sun and we are moving in the opposite direction. So we are getting a bit closer still. It's not very close. So somehow this visitor is avoiding us. And it's just like being in a party where nobody wants to dance with you. And, and this visitor comes in and doesn't want to dance with the Earth. It doesn't want to get close to Earth. And maybe it came to the solar system just to come close to Jupiter, for example, who knows? Because it could release devices close to Jupiter, but it could also be just a coincidence that, you know, it's a very rare object that we will not see for a long while. Such a big package arriving at our doorstep. I know, and that's why we should observe it, monitor it. You know, the way I think of it is like a black swan event. It could be a small probability event that if it's alien technology, but even if it's a small probability, it would have a huge impact on society if it happens to be technological. And that's why we should pay attention to it.

[Maureen Callahan]

Have you seen Professor Loeb the Age of Disclosure yet? That documentary? Okay, I want to play a little clip of this for our audience in case they haven't had a chance to see it yet and then talk to you about it. In this clip we're going to hear from sitting US Elected officials, former top advisors, presidential advisors, top military fighter pilots. We're going to begin in this clip with Brett Fedderson, the former Director of Aviation Security at the National Security Council under President Obama. And we go from there into. We end with Marco Rubio, Secretary of Defense. Here we got.

[Brett Fedderson]

I can say through my experience that we are absolutely not alone in this universe. The biggest thing that concerns me with UAPs is the national security concern. It's the unknown. It's the fact that this technology does stuff that we can't do. And if we can't figure out what it is or what it wants or what it's being used for, that keeps me up at night in the idea that we're behind the power curve. We want to be able to maintain the, the cutting edge technology and the advantage here in the United States so that we can sleep comfortably at night and feel the safety of what the American government has provided. There's sort of, I think, four hypotheses out there, one of which is that this is foreign adversary technology that we simply don't understand or weren't aware of. And that would amount to probably the biggest intelligence failure in modern American history. The second of which is that this is a robust counterintelligence program to cover up for a US Government effort that has fallen kind of away from congressional oversight. A third hypothesis is obviously that this is interdimensional or extra terrestrial. And then fourth could be a combination of, of the previous three.

Some of the biggest strategic blunders in human history. The foundation of those blunders, blunders were a lack of imagination, the belief that an adversary or whoever could not do something because it had never been done before. The US thought it was safe for those ships in Pearl harbor because we didn't think that the Japanese could get there, much less have torpedoes that could navigate such a narrow straight and hit these ships. Until they did, we never thought in our wildest dreams that terrorists would strike us in the homeland by training for a year to become, become pilots and then hijacking commercial aircraft and crashing them into buildings. And they did the thing that always keeps me up at night, something in the human.

Psyche that says I don't have time or energy to sort of prepare for the unforeseen or what I've never seen done before. And you know, that that leads to strategic surprise and, and, and some sometimes strategic surprises that change the course of human history.

[Maureen Callahan]

I really love what, what Marco Rubio had to say there and this documentary, although I've, I'm, I'm still in it, I haven't finished it yet. It, it seems quite remarkable in that we have sitting high level United States officials who are basically saying, yeah, it's real. Aliens are real, UFOs are real. We don't know who they are or what they want or how long they've been here. And not only are they in our skies, they're underwater. We've seen objects moving in water at the speed of, at a speed that defies the laws of physics as humans know them.

[Professor Avi Loeb]

Right? I mean, obviously the intelligence agencies admit that they're not doing their job, okay? So that's a serious matter. Because if we are talking about adversarial nations, we need to figure out what these objects are because, because we're putting a trillion dollars in the defense budget for 2026. We want to get the return for those dollars. And it's clear that some agencies would prefer to keep it classified just because they don't want us to figure out that they're not doing their job. But nevertheless, if it's a matter of national Security, it needs to be figured out. Now, what I would argue is if there was any information, materials collected 50 years ago that could not have been explained, it shouldn't be classified because any technologies developed by adversarial nations 50 years ago are completely irrelevant today. And so that kind of data should be released, declassified, and provided to scientists like myself. Because while the government is indeed focused on national security, you know, anything that may lie beyond the solar system is my day job and I will be happy to help government figure it out. The question is whether they have anything. And of course, what is presented in this documentary is that they do. I would love to help government figure it out. If it has to do with anything that came, you know, beyond this Earth, from beyond this Earth. And just because, you know, it involves all humans on this planet, we are all in the same boat. This is a scientific matter.

That should be figured out. And, you know, if you are sitting at a dinner table, you would not avoid telling your family members that you have neighbors. That makes no sense to hide it.

[Maureen Callahan]

Professor Loeb, what did the documentary leave you feeling? Do you. Are you more inclined to believe that these objects are the human made works of foreign adversaries, or are you inclined to believe that they are extraterrestrial?

[Professor Avi Loeb]

Well, I think we haven't seen any tangible evidence in this documentary. People are telling us stories. And that's my problem with this subject. You know, I just don't know how reliable are these stories and whether there is anything behind them. And this is why I'm leading the Galileo project where we build observatories around the US we have three of them right now. One in Massachusetts, another one in Pennsylvania, and a third one in Nevada. And we're observing the sky with calibrated instruments and trying to figure out if there are any objects that are behaving in ways that go beyond the performance envelope of human made objects. And within the coming year, we should have millions of objects that we monitor. And if any of them behaves in a strange way, we will definitely document that. And what I say is that when you go to Vegas, it's often said that whatever happens in Vegas stays there. It will not be the case with our observatory there. If we find anything interesting in Vegas, everyone will know about it.

[Maureen Callahan]

Dr. Loeb, what do you make of the wow. Signal, which has been discussed quite a bit in connection with 3i Atlas. Now, this was in 1977. It was a powerful 72nd narrowband radio burst detected by Ohio State University's Big Ear telescope in August 1977, originating from the constellation Sagittarius and never heard from again.

[Professor Avi Loeb]

Right. That's, you know, the most.

Well known and clear signal from beyond this Earth that has no explanation. And.

It turns out that the three EYE Atlas also came from the Sagittarius direction, within nine degrees from the wow. Signal. And the chance of that happening at random is 0.6%. I wrote about it and pointed this out. Of course, it doesn't mean that the signal came from 3i Atlas. It could. For example, even if it's technological, it could have come from the senders or at any event, I asked radio observers to monitor 3A Atlas. And they responded favorably. And on November 5th, the MeerKAT Radio Observatory in South Africa.

Monitored 3I Atlas in the radio band between 0.9 GHz to 1.6 GHz frequencies. And it put a limit of less than the cell phone transmission power from that object. But it was just for one day in a particular band of frequencies. So we don't really know if there is any additional transmission from it.

[Maureen Callahan]

Now, there's a United States representative named Anna Palaluna who has called on NASA as recently as four weeks ago to release all of the data and images that they have relating to 3i Atlas. What is your theory, Professor Loeb? Excuse me, as to why not all of this is made public?

[Professor Avi Loeb]

Well, actually, the letter from Representative Luna came after I discussed it with her. And she was very gracious in asking for the information and encouraging NASA to really be curious about this object. So I'm really grateful for Representative Luna for doing that. As to why NASA is dragging their feet, part of it is they're trying to avoid any risk. So they first of all refer to this object as a comet just from a different environment, as if we know exactly why the anomalies that we detected exist. They don't even deal with anomalies. They had a press conference with NASA officials that just tried to dampen the public's enthusiasm for learning more about this object. And they didn't have any scientists that would give us some useful information in that press conference. And it was a very disappointing press conference because the images that they shared were fuzzy, not of high quality. And at the same time, we had a lot of images coming from amateur astronomers that were obtained with the instruments that cost thousands of dollars instead of a billion dollars. And they provided much more information about the jets from three atlas. So that was disappointing. And I can understand that as a signature of NASA being a bureaucratic body that does not want to take risks. You know, there is nothing.

Nothing else to it. And it would have been nice if they just were more scientifically curious and willing to admit that there are things we don't fully understand about this object. That's all I'm asking them. And you know, in general with respect to comet experts, they behave like AI systems that are trained on some data set. And you don't expect AI systems to tell you anything else other than the data set they were trained on. And so the training data set for comet experts are icy rocks. That's what they worked on for decades. But I'm telling them, look, you should expand your training data set because we humans launched a lot of space equipment and there are lots of spacecraft and satellites out there in space and, and we know that there aren't only rocks. And my point is maybe Elon Musk is not the most accomplished space entrepreneur since the Big Bang, 13.8 billion years ago. So there are 100 billion stars in the Milky Way galaxy. It takes less than a billion years. Even for the 1970s technologies that we had with Voyager to cross the Milky Way galaxy, there was plenty of time for spacecraft equipment to arrive at our backyard from other civilizations. Let's just be open minded and when there are anomalies, admit them and try to figure them out and see if any of them may indicate a technological origin. That's all I'm asking.

[Maureen Callahan]

Professor Loeb, have you had any conversations with Elon Musk?

[Professor Avi Loeb]

Not directly, no. But he referred to me in a conversation with Joe Rogan because I appeared on Rogan's Joe Rogan Experience and a week later Elon was there and, and they talked about me.

[Maureen Callahan]

What did they say about you?

[Professor Avi Loeb]

Well, Joe asked for his opinion. He was not very well informed about 3A Atlas. And he said that, yeah, we should in principle consider, you know, any possibility for explaining its anomalies, but he believes that it's probably natural. But you know, I would love to speak with Elon because. And it's important to adapt an open mind. And at the moment we are not investing much funds in the search. That's one way of not finding anything. If you just keep your eyes closed and you don't. I mean there is this famous Fermi's question. Enrico fermi asked in 1950, where is everybody? But if I was next to him, I would have put my arm around his shoulder and I would have told him, look, Enrico, you are not that attractive. You know that they will come to you when you want them to be here. You need to find them. And that's what you tell any lonely person, that you need to go to dating sites, you need to look through the windows of your home. And he didn't do any of that. He didn't build a telescope, he didn't search for anything. So it's very easy to, to basically have some vague idea and then not, you know, just say there is nobody out there or nobody's looking for me. And, and then you stay lonely forever because you're not seeking the evidence.

[Maureen Callahan]

This is, this is the, this is sort of what I want to end with.

You know, I, I sense, correct me if I'm wrong, you are a man of science, but I sense that you very much would love this to be some alien technology that is doing a drive by for planet Earth. And I think you know the words lonely and alone. Are we alone in the universe? It's all over the age of disclosure. It's with you at the end of this conversation is there is nothing more existentially lonely than the idea that this planet is the only one. That we are the only life forms that inhabit this solar system or other interstellar galaxies. And I think it's this eternal push, pull. You know, we want to, we want, we don't want it, but we want it. You know, it's scary, it's exciting. What is it?

[Professor Avi Loeb]

Well, right now the view that we have of the universe is of a cold and lonely place made of matter, radiation. And once we find a partner out there, a sibling of our family of intelligent civilizations, we'll develop an emotional connection.

[Maureen Callahan]

I love that you think they're friendly. What if they're not?

[Professor Avi Loeb]

Oh yeah, that's true of any blind date. You know that you never know if you have a serial killer on the other side. Of course that's possible, but I prefer to be an optimist because life is very often a self fulfilling prophecy. And you know, one reason that I'm seeking a higher intelligence out there is because I don't often find it in academia.

[Maureen Callahan]

That is hilarious. That is hilarious. We hope that. We hope that you'll come back once we really get a closer look. Until then, I wish you all the best in your pursuit of the truth. Being out there. Thank you Professor Loeb, for being on the Nerve.

[Professor Avi Loeb]

Thanks for having me. It was a great pleasure.

[Maureen Callahan]

That's it for this edition of the Nerve at night. We will be back on Friday with a full Nerve. If you haven't already, check out our substack at the Nerve show. Be sure to subscribe plus Nerve Merch New drops are available now. Grab something for yourself or pick up something for a fellow troublemaker or troublemaker to [e-mail] Also, the nerve is now available on Megan's Podcast Playlist every Monday, Wednesday and Friday at 9am Eastern on SiriusXM channel 111, the Megan Kelly channel. We will see you back here on Friday for a full episode of the Nerve, where you will never guess what we're about to say next.

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Before the trophy and bragging rights are rightfully yours. Before your sleeper turns in a season no one saw coming, before stats and projections turn into points on the board and your lineup falls perfectly, perfectly into place, you flip the lid on a can of on nicotine pouches. And as you make your first pick, you know this is the season where fantasy is going to surpass reality. It's on Products for tobacco consumers 21 years of age or older. Warning. This product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical.