Teyana Taylor's NEEDINESS, Timothée Chalamet's Demeanor, & Carolyn Bessette's Dramatized Distress

Summary

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The Nerve with Maureen Callahan

Episode: Teyana Taylor's NEEDINESS, Timothée Chalamet's Demeanor, & Carolyn Bessette's Dramatized Distress
Date: March 18, 2026
Host: Maureen Callahan | Guest: Mark Bowden (Body Language Expert)

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Episode Overview

In this sharp, witty, and unflinching installment of The Nerve, Maureen Callahan and recurring guest Mark Bowden (Truth Plane founder, body language analyst) dive into some of pop culture’s most-talked about, cringeworthy displays at the recent Oscars. They deconstruct the body language, underlying psychology, and branding choices of Teyana Taylor and Timothée Chalamet during the awards, take aim at Anna Wintour's much-publicized handover to Chloe Malle at Vogue, and cap off with a no-holds-barred breakdown of the latest "Love Story" dramatization of John F. Kennedy Jr. and Carolyn Bessette. Throughout, Mark and Maureen maintain their trademark skepticism, irreverence, and insight, with Maureen frequently underscoring the difference between Hollywood myth-making and reality.

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Oscars: Teyana Taylor’s Neediness & Timothée Chalamet’s Demeanor

Teyana Taylor: Performance or Deep Insecurity?

[04:40–13:55]

• Setting the Scene: Teyana Taylor sat next to Leonardo DiCaprio—Hollywood’s “king”—and displayed notably performative behavior: snapping fingers, dancing, and making herself the center of attention.

• Maureen’s Take ([07:55]):

  “It seemed like a swerve. Like, who cares if [DiCaprio’s] here? I’m hot shit, too...I read it as just a remarkable act of insecurity, that it’s not enough that you’re nominated for your first major feature film, acting alongside Leonardo DiCaprio, seated next to him at the Oscars. That’s not enough attention.”

• Mark’s Analysis ([08:48]):

  “I wonder whether that’s the overall brand she’s going for... Something a little more outrageous, a little more aggressive. There were many points throughout these Oscars when she’s pretty aggressive.”

• Key Moment ([11:06–12:32]):
  Taylor physically grabs director Paul Thomas Anderson in a “trophy” headlock during the Best Picture win, runs on stage ahead of him, and grabs the Oscar statuette.

  • Mark ([11:06]):

    “Classic trophy behaviors. She grabs the head of the most important person in her world... then grabs that prize. Well, this is Best Film. It’s not necessarily her Oscar.”

  • Maureen: Critical of Taylor's constant escalation, citing an additional red carpet incident with a security guard, seeing it as someone who "needs" attention—or insufferability might be the brand.

• Mark on Branding ([13:11]):

  “Is this the kind of person that's going to be getting attention through more extremes, more aggressive behaviors? ...Time will tell because I imagine she’s going to be around for a few more years.”

Timothée Chalamet: Jitters and Devaluation

[13:55–21:02]

• Oscars Behavior: Mark and Maureen note Chalamet’s anxious leg-flapping while seated with Kylie Jenner. Maureen points out he became the "butt of many jokes."
• Mark ([15:45]):

  “This is classic for males, often quite young males... It’s associated with some kind of anxiety or boredom or trying to get some kind of focus... could be high or low testosterone. Testosterone can peak or collapse abruptly... depending on the day, depending on stress.”

• Maureen ([17:18]):

  “You are in a situation here where you are with your highest value peers... and you’re getting devalued and devalued. You’re getting to be the lowest person in the room very fast, which he can’t be used to.”

• Afterparty Red Carpet ([18:25–20:31]):
  • Chalamet seems checked out, lazily holding Jenner’s hips as she poses for cameras in a revealing dress. He appears “dead-eyed” and disconnected.
  • Mark ([19:12]):

    “There’s a little kind of bump of the hip... to get his hand off the cut in the dress, because that’s the money on that dress... He’s not helping.”

  • Maureen speculates: could Chalamet’s behavior stem from subconscious possessiveness, or simply being lost?
  • Mark ([20:31]):

    “He hasn’t really read the arts very well... Do you think he can read the fashion community particularly well? I doubt it.”

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Anna Wintour & Chloe Malle: Vogue’s Awkward Handover

[21:02–30:49]

• Context: Anna Wintour is publicly touting Chloe Malle as her successor at Vogue, but their staged appearances feel cold and awkward.
• NYT Video Interview ([21:52–24:58]):
  • Wintour sneers while Chloe earnestly expresses inspiration. Mark notes it’s savvy brand positioning—Chloe as “down to earth” and Anna as frosty, underlining contrast.

    Mark ([21:52]): “You couldn’t have two people more dissimilar... Winter playing that brand massively, framing the new editor as warm and connectable by being her most extreme, impatient self.”

  • Maureen ([23:11]):

    “Anna...understands optics better than anybody. She is saying to America and Vogue consumers, this is my handpicked successor... and here’s how I’m going to display my confidence: I’m going to sneer, I’m going to smirk, I’m going to (turn away)...‘Can you believe this lump and mold of just unsophisticated?’”

• On Nervousness & Style:
  • Chloe demures, Anna mocks the idea she even gets nervous. Mark ([24:58]): “She brushes that off with laughter. She doesn’t even want to go there...The new editor is playing the brand of ‘I’m just like you.’”
• Paris Fashion Week Walk ([26:20–30:49]):
  • Anna towers behind Chloe, dominating the frame physically and psychologically.

    Mark ([27:51]): “Anna is behind her, taller than her, has height dominance and is in her peripheral vision... It’s a predatory position. Winter is very good at putting people under stress and pressure. Isn’t this a scene from The Devil Wears Prada?”

  • Mark notes lack of models in culture for “female mentor/female mentee” handovers, comparing this to Devil Wears Prada.
  • On Wintour’s literal refusal to “exit the frame,” Mark ([30:01]):

    “Power never really wants to give itself up. That is a behavioral trait we see all over the world...and I think we’re probably seeing it here.”

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Love Story: JFK Jr. & Carolyn Bessette—The Myth and the Mess

[35:14–68:53]

• Episode 7 Recap: Obsession
  Focus on the Kennedys’ “post-wedding” years:

• Carolyn’s Suffering: Dramatized scenes of Bessette as an allegedly overwhelmed spouse, unable to cope with media attention. Maureen mocks the dramatization, calling both John and Carolyn “drama queens” ([52:08]).

  • Maureen:

    “The solution to that problem? Doorman building, underground parking garage, private entrance and exit, tinted windows... But Carolyn had nothing else going on in her life, and so that was the stuff that got her out of bed in the morning—being lit up by the paparazzi.”

• Maureen Deep-Dives into Source Material:

  • Cites Steve Gillen’s America’s Reluctant Prince to debunk the story’s melodramatics. Notes Bessette was obsessed with her image and appeared to thrive on the attention she claimed to hate.

• Carolyn’s Toxic Patterns ([52:58]):

  • Anecdotes: picking fights with John’s colleagues, self-medicating, pushing away those close to John, especially his assistant.

• John’s Professional Incompetence ([62:06–68:53]):

  • George magazine’s ongoing failures, John’s lack of vision or leadership. Recap of actual explosive office confrontations (verbal and physical) with business partner Michael Berman.

    “Imagine this is a magazine. I’ve worked at many magazines... I never saw any shit like this. Grownups don’t behave this way in the workplace. John Jr. was a toddler, emotionally and psychologically.”

  • Cites Michael Burgin’s The Other Man, revealing that just months into her marriage to John, Carolyn reignited an affair with her ex, Michael. Maureen notes the show sanitizes or omits these details.

• Maureen’s Framing:

  “If the Nerve and Ask Not exist for any reason, it’s to disabuse the culture of this horseshit... The real truth is so much more fucked up and dark and ugly. And that’s the way more compelling version. And we are all better off for knowing what the truth is.”

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Notable Quotes

• Maureen Callahan ([07:55]):
  “It seemed like a swerve. Like, who cares if [DiCaprio]’s here? I’m hot shit, too...just a remarkable act of insecurity.”
• Mark Bowden ([12:29]):
  “We’re commenting on her. It seems aggressive. Is it helping her stand out? Yes, for sure. But for any of the right reasons? Well, time will tell.”
• Mark Bowden ([21:52]):
  “You couldn’t have two people more dissimilar...and certainly, you know, Winter playing that brand massively...really trying to frame this new editor as warm and down to earth and connectable.”
• Maureen Callahan ([30:49]):
  “My prediction is [Wintour] leaves the Condé Nast building feet first, Mark.”
• Maureen Callahan ([52:08]): “These two were such drama queens.”

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Key Timestamps

• 04:40–13:55: Teyana Taylor’s Oscars antics and body language analysis.
• 13:55–21:02: Timothée Chalamet’s anxiety, support dynamics with Kylie Jenner, and “trophy” branding versus detachment.
• 21:02–30:49: Anna Wintour & Chloe Malle: successor optics, brand management, and competitive tension at Vogue.
• 35:14–68:53: In-depth cultural critique of “Love Story: John F. Kennedy Jr. and Carolyn Bessette,” examining real history vs. TV dramatization.

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Tone and Style

• Maureen’s signature blend of humor, skepticism, and scathing honesty dominates, with Mark Bowden offering cool-headed, forensic behavioral analysis.
• The episode contains pop culture dissection, side-eye for celebrity branding efforts, and unapologetic debunking of tabloid and TV versions of high-profile true-life stories.
• Listeners get behind-the-scenes context, literary citations ("America's Reluctant Prince," "The Other Man"), and a steady stream of memorable quips.

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For Listeners New and Old

This episode of The Nerve will delight those who crave real talk on pop culture and history’s most over-glamorized figures. It’s especially rich for anyone curious about the Oscars, how celebrities use branding and body language, and the true story behind the mythic Kennedy marriage. Maureen and Mark’s dynamic offers both entertainment and intelligent skepticism, making this deconstruction as informative as it is bitingly funny.

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Transcript

[Mark Bowden]

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[Maureen Callahan]

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[Mark Bowden]

Maureen, great to see you. Great to see you. And what's been going on? What are we looking at this time around?

[Maureen Callahan]

Well, we're going to do some Oscars stuff and then we're going to do some Anna Wintour fashion stuff. I want to know, just curious, did you watch any of the Oscars or does this just not interest you in the least?

[Mark Bowden]

No, the Oscars actually interest me. You know, it is quite a hotbed of not just entertainment, but behavior. People under a lot of stress, a lot of pressure. So some odd stuff can, can go on there.

[Maureen Callahan]

I was hoping you would say that. I was thinking, so I was thinking of you while I was watching some of the. Again, what I love about it too is we're dealing with actors who are being awarded right for being at the height of their craft. But on a night like that, even the best actor can crack and little tells come through their body language. First. I wanna look at one of the less obvious ones. But I saw this and I thought, oh, this is a little gold mine right here. Teyana Taylor, who has exploded onto the scene with one battle after another. The mainstream media has been shoving this woman down our face. I wanna take a look at this little bit and then get your response. She was seated in a pride of place next to Leonardo DiCaprio and she is doing, she was doing a lot this entire night, but she couldn't even sit, sit in her seat without trying to draw attention to herself. And I find Leonardo DiCaprio's lack of response to any of this most interesting. Here we go. So we're looking at Tiana head down. She's Snapping her fingers to what? I don't know. Someone comes to greet Leo, and now she's dancing in her seat. We're, like, bobbing around. She's trying to engage with le and the woman who's come up to him, and they're both just ignoring her. Mark.

[Mark Bowden]

Well, look, first of all, great film. Great film. One of my favorite films so far.

[Maureen Callahan]

Really?

[Mark Bowden]

Yeah. Yeah, I really loved it. I really loved it. It starts off in a very strange way. It continues in a very strange way, and it ends very strangely. But look what's going on here. She is right next to probably the hottest thing, you know, in the Oscars, which is Leonardo DiCaprio. He's one of the most valuable actors.

[Maureen Callahan]

Iconic.

[Mark Bowden]

The planet. Yeah, I mean, he's. He's iconic. So what do you do, Maureen? If you were there. If I was there, what are we going to do if we're seated next to him? How do we stand out? He's being very still. He doesn't really have to do anything.

[Maureen Callahan]

Exactly.

[Mark Bowden]

He just needs to show up, and already every camera is on him. So. So what's she doing? Well, she's kind of disengaging in many ways. Her head's down and it's actually looking at her phone. She's, you know, dancing along to Beyonce, I think, at the same time. So she's disengaged from the mo. The thing that everybody wants to look at. And she's moving when he's very still. So, of course, what have we done? We focused on her and gone, what. What on earth is going on here? She has attracted our attention, and I think that's what she's trying to do. She's doing the opposite of Leo DiCaprio in order for us to go, what on earth is going on here? And I think it's probably a success. What's happened here.

[Maureen Callahan]

Do you? Because I think she absolutely succeeded in getting our attention. But my interpretation of it is. I think it was an attempt at a kind of a swerve. Right. Well, I'm next to this. I'm next to the king of Hollywood. He's seated in Jack Nicholson's old seat, by the way, front row center. Okay. He's been anointed. He is the successor. And she's a newcomer. She's a newcomer who acted against him. And instead of sort of having a little bit of humility, it seemed like a swerve. Like, who cares if he's here? I'm hot shit, too. Look at me. I can dance and I can do all this stuff, and I read it as kind of just a remarkable act of insecurity, that it's not enough that you're nominated for your first major feature film acting alongside Leonardo DiCaprio, seated next to him at the Oscars. That's not enough attention.

[Mark Bowden]

Look, I think. Yeah, I think you're absolutely right in that you could go down that route of humility, But I wonder whether that's the overall brand that she's going for, is humility. I think the brand she's going for is something just a little more outrageous, a little more aggressive. I think, you know, there were many points throughout these Oscars when she's pretty aggressive.

[Maureen Callahan]

Oh, we're gonna get to the next one.

[Mark Bowden]

We'll get to that. Yeah. Compared to what we might expect, you know, socially, you know, in the norms of what we expect from a female actor, you know, an actress. An actor. Female actor in Hollywood, are we expecting something a little bit more demure? And she's not going down that route. So, again, I think you're absolutely right, but she could still be playing to the brand that she's looking to produce here.

[Maureen Callahan]

Yeah. You know, Mark, I don't even know that I would gender it as if a woman should be demure and sort of knowing her place. I just think of this as the way one comports oneself and the way one sort of, you know, you kind of work up, I think, you know, Leonardo DiCaprio didn't come out of the box like this. You know, he's been doing it since he was a child. This woman got here five seconds ago, and I'm already exhausted by her. To my own point, here she is, Paul Thomas Anderson. Best Picture is announced. Okay, the crown Oscar of the night. Best Picture. One battle after another. The director, Paul Thomas Anderson, comes up. We're going to take a look at it now. And Tiana is right there next to him. She grabs him. She puts him in a headlock, bouncing headlock. Then she throws her own head back while hand on her breasts. Oh, now we're jumping up and down, Jumping up and down. Can't believe it. Now we're running ahead of our director to grab an Oscar statuette. Make sure we grab that thing. We're on center stage long before Paul ever gets there. I found this whole thing like a clown show, Mark.

[Mark Bowden]

Yeah, it's. It's extreme. So, first of all, we get something that I've talked about many times with you on your show, which is trophy behavior, where you grab the head of somebody to say, look, this is ownership. This is mine. I, I've got the head of the human being. I'm controlling this person. Now we've got to go. Look, is this aggression from her or is it kind of exuberance? Does she not, does she kind of not know what to do in this situation? Is it potentially a little bit of both, that she is an aggressive character and. Or that's the brand she's wanting to put across?

[Maureen Callahan]

And is the brand insufferability?

[Mark Bowden]

Maybe, Maybe. Look, I mean, it's not, it's not resonating with, with you?

[Maureen Callahan]

No.

[Mark Bowden]

And is it resonating with, you know, anybody? Is it, is it helping us stand out? Yes, it is for sure, but for any of the right reasons? Well, I mean, time will tell on this one, but look, classic trophy behaviors. She grabs the head of the most important person in her kind of world. The director takes control of that, then grabs that prize, the Oscar. Well, this is best film. It's not necessarily her Oscar.

[Maureen Callahan]

Exactly. It's not your Oscar.

[Mark Bowden]

Right, right. So. So yeah, look, again, we're commenting on her. It seems aggressive. I don't know whether you picked up any of her other behavior, but there was some behavior on the red carpet, I think, afterwards or before.

[Maureen Callahan]

With the security guard.

[Mark Bowden]

With the security guard. You know, look, rightfully sh. So why should anybody get to touch her? Okay, I understand we haven't seen, by

[Maureen Callahan]

the way, the video of what led up to that outburst. She says she was shoved, but I just want to say we have yet to see that. I don't, I don't know that a security guard who makes eight bucks an hour is going to lay hands on an Oscar nominee. I just don't. But go on.

[Mark Bowden]

But go on. Well, well, you know, let's imagine it happened. Okay, let's just imagine that it happened. Well, even so, she escalates this situation. And sure, we could say, look, she has every right to escalate it, but gains a lot of attention around that. So is this the kind of person that's going to be getting attention through more extremes, more aggressive behaviors? Is that her nature? Is that her brand? Is it a bit of both? Well, I mean, time will, Time will tell because I imagine she's going to be around certainly for, for a few more years because she's in an Oscar winning film and so she's going to get other parts and other attention. So let's see how she turns out.

[Maureen Callahan]

I mean, we'll see. She would not be the first to make the incorrect assumption that because one is nominated for an Oscar. They've got a long career ahead of them. There have been people who have won Oscars who call it the Oscars curse, who have trouble getting work after that. And we'll show a clip of that, of Tiana on the red carpet with that moment. Because what struck me about that moment is it's one thing to have, like a reaction that's emphatic. Somebody touched me. I don't touch me. It's another to get your finger in somebody's face and start snarling and going, hey, you, you. And you know, every bit the cameras are on you. And it just the accretion of all of those moments at the Oscars to me, you know, to your point, Mark, she wanted the attention. Maybe she's going for a means of branding herself. Was she successful in getting that attention? Yes, she was. She needed to look no further than her male. A male counterpart at that ceremony named Timothy Shamalama Ding Dong, who spent the awards season getting plenty of attention for himself. Did it redound to his benefit? No. Did he talk himself right out of an Oscar with his obnoxious behavior and patter? Indeed he did. Here we're going to look at Timmy sitting next to his girlfriend. We'll see for how much longer. Kylie Jenner. And take a look at this, Mark. He's. He's seated. I don't know if it's a commercial break. It looks like it. And he's flapping his legs. It looks like a nervous, not so much a tic, but like, sort of like getting some stress out, you know, like we're confined to this chair, but we're really nervous. Kylie is almost completely torqued towards him as if to be offering some comfort. It's not working, I think.

[Mark Bowden]

Yeah, you're right. This is quite classic for males, often quite young males, this kind of leg movement, sometimes flapping in and out, sometimes going up and down both legs, one leg. Often it's associated with some kind of anxiety or. Or boredom or trying to get some kind of focus. And it can be equated with sometimes lacks. You can try. Trying to get dopamine, trying to feel, you know, okay, comfortable in the situation, but also either high levels of testosterone or, in fact, low levels of testosterone.

[Maureen Callahan]

Really?

[Mark Bowden]

Yeah. Which is why you'll often see it within younger males because, you know, testosterone can peak or collapse, you know, quite abruptly within. Within young males, depending on the day, depending on the situation.

[Maureen Callahan]

What causes an abrupt testosterone collapse? Is it stress? Is it alcohol?

[Mark Bowden]

Could be stress. Could be alcohol. Could be sleep. Could be all kinds of things. Could be just the day of the week for him, other people in the, in the situation, a feeling of, you know, low testosterone. Could be a feeling of. Of not being worth much. And I mean, look, you are in a situation here where you are with your highest value peers. You know, you got DiCaprio just down the road from you right now. No, higher value. I. Great that you picked out that he's in Nicholson's seat here. This is, you know, this is the. You're very close to the anointed one.

[Maureen Callahan]

Oh, that's it. I think that's Leo's seat for the Academy Awards going forward. Anytime he shows up, he gets it. But to your point, Mark, with, with Timothy, the other thing that strikes me about this, if it's stress release, if it's anxiety with the flapping of the legs, he has been the butt of many a joke throughout that ceremony. So I think we're about midway through at this point, and he. It must be settling in that my high value peers are laughing at me.

[Mark Bowden]

Interesting. So, you know, you could be right that he's getting continually devalued around. I mean, look, if he was next to you and I and he gets devalued, look, you give a shit.

[Maureen Callahan]

He's like, do you have an Oscar nomination? Have you been to space? You know.

[Mark Bowden]

Exactly. But if you're just down the road from Leo DiCaprio and everybody else and you're getting devalued and devalued, you're getting to be the lowest person in the room very fast, which he can't be used to because if he walks along a street, any old street with anybody, he's the highest value person on the street. So. Interesting, isn't it, what context can do for somebody.

[Maureen Callahan]

Agreed. And I want to take another look at Timothy. This is after losing. He and Kylie Jenner attend the Vanity Fair party. The after Oscar party, red carpet. She's in front of him and she's posing and she's wearing a dress that is just. It's. It's sex bomb. It's fertility queen. It's all of these things. He's got his hands on her hips, very. Almost like it's an afterthought. This is, this is my. My high value trophy. To use your. Your language. But he seems to not even care. He then drops one hand. It's just a very lazy drop. His eyes look dead. His affect is dead. We have lost the Oscar. We have lost, it seems, the will to live.

[Mark Bowden]

What I like most about this one, Maureen, is there's a little kind of bump of the hip that kind of. Yes. To get his hand, I think, off the cut in the dress. Because that's the money on that dress. That, you know, obviously the bust line is great as well, but that hip cut is, is really where it's trying to bring our attention. And his hand is covering exactly what the dress is trying to do. So look, charlamagne, you know, read, read the room and read the dress. Essentially you got to know if you've got this high value, you know, piece to the side of you, what is being worn there that's of high value as well. And how do you help, you know, her do her job, which is show that off and really display that really well and display herself really well. He's not helping.

[Maureen Callahan]

Well, Mark, do you think that was actually, whether subconsciously or not, an attempt by Chalamet to place ownership on and cover up the most suggestive. I mean, that she's also got part of her midriff bared, but a very suggestive, sexy part of the dress. She is the COVID star of Vanity Fair this month. You know, this is her talk about branding her brand is I'm a little sex bomb. I paid a lot of money for this face and a lot of money for this body. Your hand off me. You just lost, you loser.

[Mark Bowden]

Yeah, yeah, I think you could, I think you could be right. I mean, that's certainly her point of view, I think. I'm not sure he's, he's really reading anything correctly at the moment. He hasn't really read the arts very well. He made all those comments, you know, about. I think it was ballet and opera and therefore wasn't really reading the arts community particularly well. Do you think he can read the fashion community particularly well? I, I doubt it. I doubt he particularly knows what's going on right now.

[Maureen Callahan]

Well, you have set us up with a beautiful transition because I have been dying to talk to you about Anna Wintour who has been lugging her hand picked successor, the dowdy, frumpy Nepo baby Chloe Mal, all over American media. We're going to look at two clips. The first, this is Anna reacting as Chloe is telling the New York Times style section in this video interview what will inspire her to take the reins of Vogue as editor in chief from the legendary Anna Wintour. Here we go. I am very inspired by what Vogue has been for a long time and especially in the last 37 years. It's exciting to me. Okay, we just. Oh, God. You go Just go.

[Mark Bowden]

So look, for me, this is pretty interesting because it seems to me like a piece of, again, branding going on here and the mantle being handed over of editor of Vogue. What an important thing to be. I mean, that's a huge. That's a huge thing. But is anybody ever gonna be as impatient and detached and cold as. As the past editor? I don't think so. So what do you do? I think you go for the exact opposite. Opposite, which is down to earth, connected and warm, essentially. And so you've got what I might call chalk and cheese here. You couldn't have two people more dissimilar and certainly, you know, Winter playing that brand massively. You know, really trying to frame this new editor as warm and down to earth and connectable to as possible by her being her most extreme impatient. I can't spend least enough time here and how cold could I possibly be? I think it's kind of quite clever potentially what's going on here. But I'd love your view on it because you'll have a smart view on this.

[Maureen Callahan]

Well, you know, I. You have brilliant views on, on these, on these as well. This is your specialty, I think. However, Anna, who has spent her life in visual medium, okay, the Vogue is a visual medium. She understands optics better than anybody. She is saying to America and Vogue consumers, this is my handpicked successor. You should have the confidence in her, as much confidence as I am displaying in her. And here's how I'm going to display my confidence. I'm going to sneer, I'm going to smirk, I'm going to take my architecturally perfect bob and I'm going to turn away and I'm just going to go, oh, my God, can you believe this lump and mold of just unsophisticated, you know, this is. I can't believe it. What have I done? Let's take a look at them both being asked about the last time either one of them felt nervous. And then we'll have some fun with it on the back end. Okay, last question. The last time you felt nervous? About 30 minutes ago before this interview. Oh, for me too. I don't get nervous. Mark, would you please just deconstruct everything about Anna's posture from even her legs? You know, her right foot is like sort of tucked back in these knee high. You know, everything Anna's wearing too. Like you can. The texture reads through the camera. This is like luxury. I mean, she's wearing like Loro Piana and like just things you can almost feel. And Chloe Looks like she just rummaged the bargain bin at Banana Republic for, like, some pajama pants. Chloe, her posture is like this. Anna is sitting like a queen. She's regal, she's imperious. The sunglasses, all of it.

[Mark Bowden]

Yeah. Look, why should anybody so powerful as Anna have to even answer a question of do I get nervous? Why would she ever get nervous? She brushes that off with laughter, essentially. She just. She just dismisses it completely. She doesn't even want to go there. Now does she get nervous? Of course she gets nervous. She's a human being. She'll absolutely get nervous. But she's not playing that brand. She never has. That's never been her brand. And the new editor is playing the brand of. Look, I'm just like you. I'm just. Just kind of like an ordinary person who just got to be head of, you know, the most important fashion magazine in the. In the world. I'm going to do this just like you do this. I'm so down to earth. I'm just like you. So I don't know what the. I mean, she plays it pretty well. It's. The smile on her face is a true smile. So she truly is enjoying the idea of saying she gets nervous. It's not put on. So I think it's probably true, all of that. And so I think she might well be very good at being. Playing the editor who is just like you and me or anybody else out there and probably, you know, buys their clothes from the bargain basement now, which

[Maureen Callahan]

is not what we want in an editor of Vogue, you know, But I think you're so right, Chloe, playing this, like, meek little. Who me? Like, I just got tapped, you know, My mom's just a famous actress, and my dad's just a famous movie director. And I just have been, you know, in the halls of Vogue forever. But they picked me. Me. You know, it's such a. It's. It's such an affect. It's just like we're gonna get to. Later. We've been watching The Ryan Murphy, JFK Jr. Carolyn Bessette love story, and it's the whole Carolyn Bessette affect. I mean, he picked me. He picked me. You know, it's like, get out. Okay, the last one we're gonna look at, Mark, before we have to let you go. My heart's breaking. Here are this most supreme odd couple, Anna and Chloe, walking outside of a show at Paris Fashion Week. This is on March 7th, and we're gonna look at this together. What's remarkable to me about this is how already again, my reading of this video. Defeated Chloe looks and downtrodden and Anna is like behind her. And Anna's sort of, you know, she's walking a little bit behind her, but she's above her. The heels are higher. She's in almost like a coat that reads almost like a dominatrix level. Chloe is like in this like shapeless cardigan. She's wearing flats. She's like. And Anna's. Her gesticulations are kind of like, I'm making definitive points here. And Chloe's just got her arms meekly to her side, like, uh huh, uh

[Mark Bowden]

huh, yeah, look, you've described it brilliantly. The other thing I want to add to this is Anna is behind her, taller than her, so has height dominance and is in her peripheral vision as well, which will cause her anxiety to spike.

[Maureen Callahan]

Chloe's just bike.

[Mark Bowden]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[Maureen Callahan]

Explain why.

[Mark Bowden]

Well, it's a predatory position. A predator will have height dominance on you and get in your peripheral vision, so you can't quite see that it's about to attack and what it's about to do. Okay, so she's very good. Winter is very good at putting people under stress and pressure. And isn't this a scene from the Devil Wears Prada? I mean, isn't this ultimately what's being acted out here is, is this idea of, you know, how do you have a female powerful mentor if you're another female? We don't have many models for that. We've got, you know, Gandalf and Frodo and, and Gusto and Remy and Dumbledore and Harry. We've got a lot of male duos that we know. This is how it plays out. But, but in our stories, we don't have many female duos like, like this, other than the Devil Wears Prada is a great example of that. So I think we look at these duos and we go, well, how are they meant to be behaving? Because we haven't got the stories, we haven't got the art to mirror life to go, this is how you should do female mentor and mentorship. You know, this is how you pass on the mantle. Now, I'm not saying that they're doing it particularly well, but they are doing it a bit like the Devil Wears Prada, which is probably the only model that anybody has for how you do this.

[Maureen Callahan]

It's so fascinating, Mark. But I mean, lastly, I would say, what do you make of Wintour's? What I see here too is an absolute literal refusal to exit the Frame. If this is the girl who is taking over Vogue as editor in chief, why isn't she walking with her minions at Paris Fashion Week? Why is Wintour still hovering?

[Mark Bowden]

Yeah, look, the handover is always hard to do. Everybody finds that hard. The prime minister will never resign. The presidents don't resign. They go to the end until the public go, look, get out. We're tired of you. Like, stop hanging around. You're done. Okay, so power never really wants to give itself up. That is a behavioral trait that we see, you know, all over the world. And I think we're probably seeing it here. Where are our stories about how you give up gracefully? I mean, it's, we don't have, you know, she's been the editor of Vogue. Where's our story for how you give up the edited editorship of Vogue gracefully? I guess it's never going to happen. She's going to hang out until people go, will you get out the picture? You know.

[Maureen Callahan]

Oh, yeah. I mean, my prediction is she leaves the Condon ass building feet first, Mark.

[Mark Bowden]

Hopefully with glasses on still.

[Maureen Callahan]

Oh, yeah. No, she'll be buried in those things. It'll be open casket. Don't look at the eyes. Mark, we love having you so much. Thank you for all of your brilliant insights on today's segment of body language deconstruction. And we hope to see you very soon back at the Nerve.

[Mark Bowden]

Always, always be here for you. Lovely to see you.

[Maureen Callahan]

Lovely to see you, Mark. That's it. We will be back in a moment with troublemaker feedback. See you soon. After having a few drinks, do you find it hard to bounce back? Do you find yourself choosing between having a great night or a great morning after? Try Zebiotics Pre Alcohol. Zbiotics Pre Alcohol is the first genetically engineered probiotic created by PhD scientists to help you tackle those rough mornings after drinking. Here's how it works. When you drink, alcohol gets converted into a toxic byproduct in the gut. It's a buildup of this byproduct, not dehydration, that's really behind those sluggish mornings. Zebiotics Pre Alcohol produces an enzyme to break this byproduct down. So just make it your first drink of the night, drink responsibly and feel your best the next day. If you are ready to give Zebiotics a try, go to zebiotics.com nerve now and you will get 15% off your first order. When you use code nerve at checkout that zebiotics.com/ nerve use code nerve at checkout for 15% off. When was the last time you felt in control of your business? Finances Expenses tracked, Invoices sent, Taxes ready. That's where Found comes in. Found brings your banking, bookkeeping, invoicing and taxes together in one simple app. Manage expenses, invoice clients, send payments and prep for tax time right where you bank. Join the hundreds of thousands who have already streamlined their finances with Foundation. Open a Found account for [e-mail] that's f o u n d.com found is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking services provided by lead bank member FDIC Shipping, Billing, Admin, Payroll Marketing. You're managing all the things, so why waste time sending important documents the old fashioned way? Mail and ship when you want how you want with stamps.com print postage on demand 247 and schedule pickups from your office or home. Save up to 90% with automated rate shopping. That's why over 1 million small businesses trust stamps.com go to stamps.com and use code podcast to try stamps.com risk free for 60 days. And now the best part of any given nerve Troublemaker feedback. This is from Angela, who we hear from quite a bit. We love you Angela. Regarding the Oscars livestream technical difficulties for the ages. That was a crucible that we all went through together. But that's going to only get us to bigger and better, more seamless live streams. And remember, Mercury is in retrograde. Dear Maureen, the Oscar night livestream technicals swan dived off the proverbial cliff. But so what? Live and learn. There's something invigorating about being in on the ground floor while a new voice and commentary tries things, breaks things and starts to rise. Thank you Angela. Now's the moment to correct the angle, snap open those wings and soar. Remember, Coco Chanel's advice about accessories applies just as well to props. Although I would never sacrifice a single single poop stuffy to symbolize Timote Shamalama Ding Dongs Top level shit ever. The Troublemaker Angela who says, I'm already looking forward to the 2027 Nerve Oscars livestream. I will be there with pearls from troublemaker Kirsten, who we also hear from quite a bit and who we love. Dear Maureen Marlena, Rob Kinsey and Team Nerve just saw Timmy lose the Oscar. Initially, he did the best acting I've seen him do in a while. Then, as Michael B. Jordan made his way to the stage, the act dropped. He had he still had a smile on his face, but his eyes were shooting daggers. To all the troublemakers in the live feed, who, before the show even started, were commenting things like waiting for Timmy to lose the Oscar. We did it. We did it. We did it together. We put it out into the atmosphere and the atmosphere said, no problem. Consider it done. Hello all from troublemaker Christy. I wanted. This is so nice. You guys are the best. I just wanted to say you guys did amazing. I couldn't watch live, but I watched about around 8pm and the sound wasn't messing up. So I guess your team was able to fix everything, keep the lives coming for these award shows. They are so much fun. I also appreciate you introducing me to Rob Shooter. To know Rob is to love Rob. Dear Maureen, despite the technical difficulties, you three did a great job. Thank you. This means more than you know, trouble maker Phil. We hear from troublemaker Phil quite a bit informative, entertaining, and I suspect Marlena worked her butt off. Indeed she does. Marlena works so hard and I love that it doesn't escape your notice. I'm not. I'm not sure she likes me. Phil says, because she's a fan of Bill Maher and I'm not. And by the way, I got a text from Marlena last night. She was like, of all the things you could have left behind on our set for the livestream, I left behind my beloved Mahertini glass. My Bill, she's in my ear. She's like, it's Martini. It's Martini. But I don't know that the joke translates without it. This was Marlena's Christmas gift to me. And someday, when Marlena and I are doing a Talk at the 92nd Street Y, she's going to backdate the formation of our friendship to this glass. I guarantee it. Not to be all Oprah and Gail. In the words of Julia Roberts from Pretty Woman, stay cool. Thank you, troublemaker Phil. This email came in with some incredible troublemaker art. It's almost like the last supper, but with me and all the troublemakers around me. Oh, my God. Bill from Brooklyn is going to die when he sees this rendering. It came in with full on troublemaker art. And the this, the backdrop is incredible because it represents both Hollywood, New York City and London. Dear Maureen didn't get to watch live, but the live Oscar show was great and laughed out loud several times at our beloved Kinsey. Rob, your takes on the overhyped Oscars, especially on Timothy Shamalama. Ding Dong Ping Pong got inspired because you have the best guests and he depicted our faves left to right. You will see them in the full screen. Tim McKay, Tim, the celebrity makeup artist lady Colin Campbell, Rob Shooter, me, Kinsey Schofield, Bill from Brooklyn and producer Marlena. We love you guys. Hi Maureen and team. This is from troublemaker Wendy Ann. I must say what an absolute delight it was. This is making me feel so much better. You guys have no idea to watch your first live streaming Oscar special. I adored the set. Teddy Van Halen who's just such a natural star. Kinsey and Rob, who are by far the best two co pilots you could recruit, helping you and your troublemakers navigate the unending and self promoting actors. Actors who graced the deck of the sinking award show known as the Oscars. This troublemaker sent a great visual that is also going up on the full screen. One image during the live stream Wendy Ann says popped into my mind. An oldie but goodie from none other than the iconic comedy show. This predates me a little bit. Rowan and Martin's laugh in Wendy brings to our attention the flying fickle finger of fate Fate award which I think we here at the Nerve are going to co opt and adopt. I believe your wood chipper. Our wood chipper also making its debut on the Nerve on our Oscars livestream and on the on the recap special on Tuesday is the direct descendant of the flying finger. We would be honored. If it were so I would award it to be shared by the ping pong paddles and plastic buttock drums. Marlena, plastic buttock drums are next on our props to do list. I could not get enough of that paddling and Marlena says check. This is from troublemaker Michael. And as I go through this little. I don't know whether I would call it a poem per se, but you know in school when they make you take a word or a name and then you take the first initial like the first letter of every name and you go okay, like S is for sorry. T is for tardy. This is Stedman. Stedman in vertical. S is for someone missing T their significant birthday. Stedman 75th as covered on the mini last Saturday. E each of us knows why D Damp dirt decays dead M Might that be a clue to find a a voiceless vapor and no one can find out. Here we go into Graham, Gail and Oprah are silent R Rain puddles all tracks a gleam a A gleam in the sea H Heaving with the rising swell A A man overboard. M My opinion just this email I'm covering. The email address was just too funny. That is Troublemaker. I'm going to keep you anonymous. Troublemaker M this is from troublemaker Mary Jane. Good day. I love your show. I will not lie. I don't like the language. Sometimes I must just say, then cover your ears. I cannot help my profanity. Sometimes only a profane word will do. Now, this troublemaker named Mary Jane is bringing something very important to our attention. Did you see where Harry has an Instagram account not under his name? Now, this is just this troublemaker's report. We have not independently verified it here at the Nerve, but this is so thorough, it sounds correct to me. Just my opinion, not under his name, about his grandmother, Queen Elizabeth ii. The late Queen Elizabeth II and her corgis. Her beloved corgis. He's charging a fee of 399amonth to subscribe to the account. I haven't seen it in a few days, but it's short clips of him talking to and recording his grandmother talking to him as the corgis. Could this be true? We need to talk to Kinsey immediately about this. She will know. This is from troublemakers Danny and Indigo. Danny is a human. Indigo is a dog. The past few times I have watched the Nerve, I have had company. My dog, Indigo, she actually watches you. Oh, Danielle, Dani. She included images. We are going to show these full screen. We've got two photos of Indigo attached. Dani says she actually watches you and she does that cute little head tilt when she hears your voice. Teddy does it too. He's always like, what are you saying? What are you saying? On a serious note, and I agree with you, Danny. I think this is why the Nerve is landing in the culture. I think now more than ever, people are craving authenticity. They are. I am so over celebrities and their shallow bullshit. Sexual abuse, plastic surgery, GLP1s, even the idiots who claim they went to outer space. Now, as you know, I've been. I have been. And I do believe Gail did reach the outer limits of the atmosphere. I do. I have to give it to her. It's so far gone. Danny continues. I think the only reason anyone is interested is because we're hate watching. It's not entertaining anymore. It's pathetic. Hollywood will probably, however, be around forever. And if it is going to exist, I'm glad I get to watch the Infinite Trainwreck with you. Narrating. Wishing you all the success in the world with a heart. Oh, this is so lovely. Troublemakers Dani and Indigo. Keep your feedback coming. Be sure to email me at maureenevilmakeremedia.com or DM me over at Maureen Callahan, writer on Instagram or over at the Nerve Show. Remember also to subscribe to our substack that is our weekly email. Just go over to thenerveshow.com, you'll see a prompt. It'll say would you like to subscribe to the Nerves Weekly email? Put your email address in and voila. It shows up in your inbox every Friday after the week's last full Nerve. It is full of bonus content Talk amongst Troublemakers we do Troublemaker Talk. We do TED Talk with Teddy. Of course. I give you notes and recommendations, questions you've been asking me about stuff I've been talking about throughout the week. It's a ton of fun. So just go do that. And remember, there's also Troublemaker Merch over at the Nerve show. If you'd like to pick something up for yourself or a fellow troublemaker or a troublemaker you're looking to convert. We will be back in just a moment with our weekly recap, episode seven of Love Story, John F. Kennedy Jr. And Carolyn Beet. We will see you in a minute. Do you second guess the nutrition, taste and sustainability of the seafood that you bring home? Introducing Wild Alaskan their seafood is 100% wild caught, never farmed, which means no antibiotics, GMOs or additives. Just clean, nutrient rich fish that supports healthy oceans and fishing communities. Wild Alaskan Company delivers perfectly portioned wild caught seafood straight to your door. The fish is frozen right off the boat to lock in flavor, texture and nutrients like omega 3s which are so good for you. Every order supports sustainable harvesting practices and their flexible membership includes expert tips and feel good seafood. My personal favorite is the wild sockeye salmon which is incredibly fresh, buttery and rich. The best part? You can try it risk free and if you are not completely Satisfied with your first box, Wild Alaskan Company offers a 100% money back guarantee, no questions asked. It's just high quality seafood that you can feel good about. Not all fish are the same. Get seafood you can trust. Go to wildalaskan.com nerve for $35 off your first box of premium wild caught seafood. That's wildalaskan.com nerve For $35 off your first order. And thanks to Wild Alaskan Company for sponsoring this episode. Healthcare can feel complicated. That's why Optum uses technology to connect the people and processes that make healthcare easier, more affordable and more effective. We're making it clearer for you to know exactly what your benefits cover and to help you better manage your health. We're coordinating care between your doctors and your technology. We believe better, simpler. Healthcare is always possible. That's healthy optimism. That's Optum. Visit optum.com to learn more. Before all the algorithm fed blah and the endless sea of dupes, shopping used to feel more fun. But here's a confession, Fashionistas, you can find that fun feeling again on ebay. It's not mindless scrolling. It's a fashion pursuit. And when you score that rare Adidas collab or the Dior saddlebag you've been manifesting, it's a rush. Ebay has millions of pre loved finds from hundreds of brands backed by ebay. Authenticity guaranteed. Ebay. Things people love. We are back. We are back. And now we are up to episode seven of Love Story. John F. Kennedy Jr. And Carolyn Bessette. The title of this one is Obsession. That is a direct reference to the Calvin Klein perfume and campaign of the same name. The Obsession campaign which made Kate Moss a star, which was shot, I believe, by Mario Sorrenti. This was back when Mario and Kate were a couple. This episode focuses on post wedding Carolyn and John's life as newlyweds and John's burgeoning problems at a magazine he founded that he had no idea about how to run or what his own magazine was about. And wanting to be part of the media, but also dictate how the media could cover him and his wife. And not understanding that you cannot do both. You can't do both. Carolyn, the first clip that we are going to look at together, it's a little bit long and I cut it this way. And if you're listening only I want you to picture. If you can go over to the YouTube segment of this episode and watch this clip because it's ridiculous. But just picture Carolyn sitting on the floor barefoot in an empty Tribeca loft. Okay? Just wood floors, painted brick walls, you know, they're white. There's barely anything in this place. It's not subtle, you know, the lack of furniture and art books. It's not subtle. Anyway, she is lamenting being the wife of America's most famous man and she didn't know that there were going to be press wanting to take her picture or writing about her or wondering if they were going to have a baby right away because that's what they were expecting John F. Kennedy Jr. To do. Playboy of all Playboys. Once he got married, it was time to settle down, pump out a couple of kids and go run for an office we have no business running for, right? Carolyn is beside herself. Beside herself. I mean, she just got done working at Calvin Klein for years working with celebrities, chasing John F. Kennedy Jr. All over the eastern seaboard. But she had no idea this was coming. We're going to watch it. And then on the back end, I'm going to give you guys a bunch of other information that this show pretends doesn't exist. Here we go. Rumors of Carolyn Bessette Kennedy's pregnancy reignited last night at the Guggenheim when she appeared with a noticeably fuller face and bulging abdomen. 1 guess she no doubt had that pregnancy glow. Another, if she's depressed, you'd never know it. You and I aren't trying to have a baby right now. But what if I was pregnant and I miscarried? What if I couldn't get pregnant? Terrible exposition headlines. Feel.

[Mark Bowden]

Then you do this to yourself.

[Maureen Callahan]

Shouldn't be reading this crap anyway. You read everything that's ever written about you.

[Mark Bowden]

That's different.

[Maureen Callahan]

I've been dealing with this shit my whole life. They called me a fucking cunt. Who did? Yeah. I knew she won't answer that question because nobody did it. Any woman who married you would have faced an uphill battle in the court of public opinion. Opinion. But in my worst fears, I never could have imagined being called a drug addict, a shadow core, a. Every time I leave my door by men who live outside my house. And I know. I know obviously it's all bullshit, but. But I can't help but think about my friends back home. My teachers, my co workers at Calvin Klein, my family who read this crap and think what happened to that little girl? She had so much promise. And people will say that, well, she knew what she was signing up for, but. But you didn't even know what we were signing up for. He's a dummy. We both thought the life we had before we got married was the life that we were coming home to. And John, I know you say that you have the press under control, but it's. It's really starting to feel like the opposite. And I haven't said any of this to you because. Biting the lip again, she says, I love you so much. So I'm not telling you happiest time in our life. And that's what I want. I want that for you. I want that for us. And I don't want to be. I don't want to be a liability. I don't. I don't want you to feel like I'm not cut out for this, but I'm. She was not cut out for this. I'm so tired. That's a veiled threat. That's A veiled threat. And now he's hugging her and he's trying to console her. Gonna whale. I'm so sorry. Hi, it's your Amazon delivery. I'm just the Amazon. Amazon guy dropping off the package. They won't leave it alone. It's your dry cleaning. You asked for it to be delivered. Police. As. As I said, these two were such drama queens. The solution to that problem. Doorman building, underground parking garage, private entrance and exit, tinted windows. Problem solved. But Carolyn had nothing else going on in her life. And so that was the stuff that got her out of bed in the morning, being lit up by the paparazzi. I'm gonna read a little bit from Steve Gillen's book, the Life of John F. Kennedy, Jr. America's reluctant prince. Now, John had asked one of his oldest friends named Sasha, a woman, to just talk to Carolyn after they got married and try to get her to calm the fuck down. All right? There were people who wanted to take her picture. Nothing more. Sasha said to Carolyn, listen, John and I have known a lot of these photographers since we were 15 years old. She said to Carolyn, quote, these guys are here all the time. You don't have to worry about them. In fact. In fact, if you're gonna say that, you're going to take a risk as John F. Kennedy, Jr. Who is. Was. Was, you know, the Secret Service. There were many threats against John, kidnapping threats, what have you. And you live on, like, a sort of desolate street in Tribeca. What better security blanket than having the world's paparazzi camped outside your apartment? Nobody's gonna mug you, let alone attack you. But Carolyn. Oh, my God. So Sasha says, these guys are here. You don't have to worry about them. They're not going to hurt you. It's sleazy, but they just want the money. And Carolyn shot back, no, I don't want you talking to them. You cannot talk to them. These guys are the enemy. They are trying to ruin us. They are fucking with me, okay? Steve goes on to write that Carolyn did not want to interact with the photographers who hounded her. But she studied nearly every picture of herself that she could find and became increasingly self conscious about her appearance. Why am I aside? Because she wanted to look good when she photographed. And it's probably not that far off that Carolyn had a total meltdown, that her stomach wasn't completely flat at some gala, and some gossip columnists just ran with, like, the speculation that she could be pregnant. You know what I'm saying? Her hair kept getting Lighter, Steve writes, her body thinner. She began, she went rather from being a free spirit who was always at the George offices. She had no business being at her husband's workplace every day. Imagine your boss has their spouse at your workplace every day, interjecting themselves into your business. It's completely unacceptable. Steve writes. Carolyn went to a dark and fuming paranoiac. Many close friends suspected that she had begun self medicating, growing especially fond of cocaine. One friend described being on Martha's Vineyard when Carolyn and John started having a loud, angry fight. Carolyn stormed out and did not return until the following morning. Quote, all coked out. She was doing anything she could to get his attention, most of it negative, reflected Rosemarie Terenzio, John's longtime assistant. Now there's a moment in Steve's book. On another, the next page. Again, Carolyn, we're going to get to this in the next two clips. We're only going to show two more clips from Love Story. But John has it out with his business partner, Michael Berman. And Carolyn was a key figure in forming a real divide between those two that they would never conquer. They would never find their way back to each other. And she began doing this with people who were very close to John or people who John really depended on in order to get through any given day. I mean, again, the guy could barely do anything for himself. He lost wallets, he lost keys, he didn't lock up his bicycles. They were constantly getting stolen. And he didn't understand why. Dogs, losing dogs, killing dogs, you know what I mean? Okay, so now one night, Carolyn, miserable again with John, went over to Rosemarie's house, sat there all night crying, smoking, drinking, then told Rosemarie not to tell John that she had been there. And she did. She did. Steve writes, this episode marked a turning point in Rosemarie's relationship with Carolyn, who became increasingly distant. She even lobbied John to fire Rosemarie and replace her with someone more, quote, professional. At one point, John pulled Rosemarie into the office. Rosemary, who thought Carolyn was one of her best friends. John pulled Rosemarie into the office and said, quote, carolyn said that you call the house too much and if you don't really have a reason, then you shouldn't call the house. This was nobody's shrinking violet. Okay? Now we're going to go to a scene. After that big meltdown, that big, messy, toddler esque meltdown on the floor of a Tribeca loft that's worth millions of dollars. John saunters into the George magazine offices where his business Partner. And the casting here is very good. And the casting goes to something that is really unspoken but very clear. John, who is tall and muscular and good looking and a star by dint of birth, swans in and out, decides what he wants to do, what he doesn't want to do at any given moment. Michael Berman. John's the show pony. Michael Berman is the workhorse. Michael Berman is shorter. He doesn't have the dashing good looks, but he's got the brains and he's got the work ethic. And Michael has had it with John and his bullshit because Michael is trying to save this magazine, which began failing immediately after it launched. You know, everybody was curious about what the first issue was gonna be like and of course that sold out. But everybody quickly realized this thing was a dud. Okay, we're gonna watch this confrontation which, which rings pretty true. And then I'm gonna read a little bit more and let you know exactly how much of this was true and what they sanded down and what they did not. Here we go. Where were you? We had a 9am staff meeting.

[Mark Bowden]

Yeah, I had shit to deal with.

[Maureen Callahan]

Yeah, well, we have shit to deal with here too. You know, I can't run this entire magazine on my own.

[Mark Bowden]

Give me a fucking minute, will ya?

[Maureen Callahan]

You know, everyone else might be comfortable with operating on John time, but I'm not one of them. Look, Carolyn and I are going through some stuff. Oh, I could give a fuck about your wife. Honestly, I am so sick of Carolyn and the endless saga that is your personal life. Never say her fucking name again, you hear me? Legal has been waiting for you to sign this TV deal for days.

[Mark Bowden]

I don't care.

[Maureen Callahan]

I'll sign it when I'm ready. Or better yet, why don't you offer yourself up for the TV deal, Michael? Oh, yeah, that's right. No one gives a shit about you. You're a fucking tragedy. This is it. This is what? You've been whoring me out. He ripped up the contract and he threw it in Michael's face. And that's not far off. That's not far off. You know, everybody at Hachette, the publishing company that was behind George, knew pretty quickly that John was a dumb dumb that John had no idea what his own magazine was about and had no idea what a George magazine story was. That would be like me coming on to the Nerve and asking you guys to watch, but not knowing what the Nerve was about. I could tell you what the Nerve is about in like five words or less. Real. Talk about fake people he couldn't tell you what George was in that way. It's called an elevator pitch. He couldn't do it. I know exactly what a nerve story is. A nerve story is one that I'm bringing you now a fake version of events that's highly glossed up and, like, a good chunk of the population is swallowing whole, like, mother's milk. Oh, my God, it's so good. It's so glamorous. It's so fun. This is a nerve story. You know why? Because the real truth is so much more fucked up and dark and ugly. And that's the way more compelling version. And we're all better off for knowing what the truth is. But John had no idea. And so then they figured out, like, a stop, a way to stop the bleeding just for a minute. Let Michael deal with the actual magazine, the contents therein, the stories, the covers, the assignments, okay? And a lot of that is grunt work, by the way. It's not very glamorous. Let John be the face of George magazine. Let's do a George TV show, which is what they had been pitching. Advertisers and advertisers were interested in that. And John can be the pretty face of GeorgeTV. And that'll be an ancillary revenue stream and a way to bring in more subscribers and readers. And John was like, no, I'm nobody's pretty boy. You know, well, dude, you can't have it both ways. You can't. Now that fight is going to get even more vicious. Here we go. And then I'm going to read to you from the real fight that went down in that office. And it was also physical. So when everybody else is saying, like, the Maureen Dowds of the world, John was such a gentle soul. John again almost killed Christina Hogg multiple times in violent ways. There was one incident where they'll. I'll never forget this. In her book, Christina can feel John pulling away. Christina has been finding belongings that clearly are from other women who have spent the night at John's place. Over at John's place, she sees all the gossip reports about the famous actresses that he's having dalliances with. And she's desperate to hold onto him. And he invites her to his mother's retreat. And so Christina is also enamored of Jackie, and she wants to impress Jackie and she goes to, like, Bloomingdale's or Bergdorf's, I forget, it's one of the B department stores. And she finds this gorgeous wool camel coat, and it costs about what she's making in any given month. And she splurges on it, and it's one size too big, but it's the only one left. And she's like, this is going to impress Jackie. And John takes her there. Oh, and by the way, John is implying that he's about to break out his mother's engagement ring for Christina. So he's really toying with her. He's being really sadistic. And they get out there and it's like a chilly day, and she's got her coat on, and John's like, let's go out to the Jeep. Let's go for a ride in the Jeep. And the Jeep doesn't really have a roof to it. And John says, I know what we should do. I could not make this up. It's in her book. It's in Ask not to. He says, I'm going to get in the Jeep and I'm going to get it going really fast. I'm going to spin around and around and around in donuts. And when you're going to do Christina is you're going to get on the roof of the Jeep and you're going to hold on with your stomach down and your hands on either side of the roof and try not to fall off while I do this. And Christina says, john, I don't want to do that. And she's wearing this coat, this beautiful coat that she just spent all, like, her last dollar on, and she just wants to show it to Jackie. So Jackie thinks that she's a young woman of taste and sophistication. And John's like, no, I really want to do this. And, you know, so she does it. Here's Michael quitting George magazine and John getting physical with him. Here we go. Do you have any idea what life is like propping you up 24 7? I mean, you can't do anything on your own. I've had to be your mommy and your fucking daddy.

[Mark Bowden]

Shut the fuck up.

[Maureen Callahan]

Do you hear me? You're nothing without your name. You're a sympathy case with a pretty smile. Fuck. Now they're really going at it. It's a physical fight with punching and jumping and smacking.

[Mark Bowden]

Get the fuck out of my.

[Maureen Callahan]

Gladly. I quit. I can't wait for the rest of the world to see what a joke you really are. It's taking a very long time. And we at the Nerve are doing our best because they're going to depict this plane crash as the stuff of Greek mythology. Something that just, oops, happened. And if the Nerve and Ask not exist for any reason. It's to disabuse the culture of this horseshit. I'm going to read from Steve Gillen's book about. This is where this came from. I doubt Ryan Murphy paid Steve Gillen anything either for stealing this. Just my opinion. They took from my books. They took from this book. You know, it's all bullshit. By which I mean Ryan Murphy. It's bullshit. Okay, One day. And Friday, Steve Gillen, page 302. John marched into Michael's office. By the way, Carolyn had been calling Michael at home a lot. And it was like she was in 8th grade prank calling him, going, john hates you. You know, everybody at George hates you, Michael. Everybody thinks you're a loser. Why don't you do everybody a favor and just quit? John marched into Michael's office and grabbed the folder on his desk containing all of the documents relating to the George TV deal. He then declared, so this is John grabbing those documents, declaring, we are not doing any of this. As they struggled over the folder, John tugged at Berman's shirt and ripped his cuff. Shades of the park fight with Carolyn Bessette. This is it. He shouted at Michael. I'll be the editor and you can be the publisher. That's the way it's going to be. The fight continued. They were yelling at each other. John turned and ran out of Michael's office, but Berman followed close behind. Of all of the fierce arguments. So this went on all the time. Imagine this is a magazine. I worked at many magazines. I worked in the New York Post, which is a newsroom for the ages. I never saw any shit like this. Grownups don't behave this way in the workplace. John Jr. Was a toddler, emotionally and psychologically. They were both. I'm sorry. They were both out of control. Steve Gillen is a little bit too much in love with John F. Kennedy, Jr. But they were, you know, they were physically going at each other in the office, trying to bang each other's doors down. Now I'm going to read a little bit more from Michael Burgins, the other man, which some of you have been telling me you've been finding at your local libraries, which is amazing. But we're about to go into episode eight, okay, which is where the marriage begins to fall apart. If we're telling the truth now, if we're telling the truth, Carolyn has come back around to poor Michael Bergen yet again, the guy who has been carrying a torch for her forever. She's been married about five months. It's April of 97. She married John Jr. In September of 96. She's trying to get back in with Michael. Carolyn goes to see Michael and says, I brought you something. This is April of 97. Michael writes, she handed me a little box. There was a St. Christopher medal on a gold chain inside and she had etched an X and an O onto the back with a safety pin. Hugs and kisses, she explained from me. St Christopher, she said, you know, for protection. Because I'm not around to protect you anymore. Says the woman who let him find out she had married John Jr by seeing it on the front page of the New York Post. Then they kissed. Carolyn pulled away, saying, no, we can't. Then in June of that same year, a few months later, Michael is in la. He's getting his life together. He's been cast on Baywatch. He's got a regular job, a good degree of fame. Carolyn says that she's coming out with a friend of theirs to stay at his place and they begin an affair again. She then sends the friend home so that she and Michael can spend a three day weekend together. He drops her at the airport when it's over. That night, he writes, I got back to the apartment and saw that Carolyn had left her perfume on my night table. This is diabolical Egyptian musk. I loved the way it smelled, he writes, for weeks afterward. Afterward, I would put a little dab of it on my wrist after my morning shower. I wanted to have her with me throughout the day. I made a concerted effort after a couple of weeks go by not to think about her, Michael writes, But I couldn't avoid her. Even when I tried. The newspapers and magazines were always in my face. I remember reading that George Jr. Had. Sorry, John Jr. John Jr. Had cut a serious gash in his right wrist while clearing the dishes at home. I thought that sounded a little suspect. Michael would know because as discussed as read from his book the Other man, on an earlier nerve, Carolyn barged into his apartment one night in a jealous rage and destroyed the place. She threw heavy votive candles at Michael. She jumped him. But this is a love story for the ages. Come back to the Nerve, where I will tell you all the real talk about these fake people. That does it. That does it for this edition of the Nerve at night. We will be back on Friday with a full Nerve. If you haven't already, check out our [e-mail], be sure to subscribe. Plus nerve merch. Grab something for yourself or pick something up for a fellow troublemaker@shop thenerve.com and we will see you back here on Friday for a full episode of the Nerve, where you'll never guess what we're about to say next. The Essential Avocado and Banana Smoothie made with ripe avocado, frozen bananas, organic almond milk and a generous spoonful of your favorite protein powder. Fueling busy mornings, countless workouts and the occasional zoom meeting. That should have been an email. The essential energy boost made possible by Vitamix Only the essential you're listening with

[Mark Bowden]

Athletic Brewing company this time of year, everyone talks about going dry. Cool. We're skipping that because we prefer going athletic, which isn't dry at all. From crisp goldens to hoppy IPAs and limited releases in between, you'll find something that fits your style. Every single non alcoholic brew is packed with flavor and the same craft experience you love. So yeah, you could call it dry,

[Maureen Callahan]

but there's really nothing dry about it.

[Mark Bowden]

Find your new favorite near [e-mail] Athletic Brewing Co. Fit for all times.