← The Nerve with Maureen Callahan
The Nerve with Maureen Callahan
The Real Jon Hamm is Not Who You Think, Plus What Happens When "Mean Girls" Grow Up and Get Meaner
01:09:08
On the debut of "The Nerve with Maureen Callahan," Maureen gets into the real Jon Hamm, in a segment you won't see anywhere else - a horrifying story of an alleged hazing Hamm did as a frat brother, the dismissive way Hamm has addressed the incident in recent years, his past relationships, his penchant for playing a certain type of character, and his manufactured PR image today. You’ll never look at him the same way again. Plus, a deep dive on adult female friendships as portrayed in "The Real Housewives," and how "mean girls" only seem to grow up get meaner with age, featuring behavioral analyst Dr. Erin Foster. And author Susannah Cahalan joins to discuss her new book "The Acid Queen," and the story behind her hit memoir "Brain on Fire." Guests: Susannah Cahalan: https://www.susannahcahalan.com/about Dr. Erin Foster: drerinfoster.com
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- [00:03]
Maureen Callahan
Hello and welcome. Welcome to the Nerve. I'm Maureen Callahan. I'm your host. It's episode one, so I want to tell you a little bit about what to expect. This is a non safe space. This is a space where we are going to talk about all of the things in pop culture, celebrity scandal, crime, books, fashion, music, you name it, we're covering it. We're going to kick off today with an incredible little reported story involving an A list star who you will never look at the same way again. I, to my mind, think this guy is worse than Harvey Weinstein. And that says a lot because I think Harvey Weinstein's a pretty bad guy. And I also just wanted to take a moment to thank everybody who sent me messages over the past few days after hearing how nervous I was on Megyn Kelly's show last Friday. I saw them all. I read them. They really have helped me a lot. I was so preoccupied after leaving Megan's studio. And I've been doing her show in that studio for, I'm going to say, like a couple of years now. So I know how to get from point A to point B. And I was walking out of the studio back to the car, the lovely driver who was taking me home. I had my head down. I was so consumed with my own nerves and preoccupations. I walked straight into a branch, a knotty, thick tree branch. I get to the car door, this driver's like, you're bleeding. I'm like, are you serious? I pull out my compact. I'm like, my entire upper face is just bleeding. I can't even see the source of the bleed. You know, like your head, you get the tiniest laceration, and it's just like a geyser is gushing. Like, I get in the back of the car, I'm like, sir, I'm so sorry. I'm not going to get blood anywhere. But I am bleeding out. He says, do you want to go back? And I was like, absolutely not. I'm completely mortified. Anyway, I have since gotten it together, I can assure you, and I think we should just get into it. So the first person I would like to take aim at in our very first show is one John Hamm. And this segment, I promise you, you're never going to forget what you hear. He is everywhere right now because he's got a show on Apple called you'd Friends and Neighbors and it's number one. I don't know if it's like number one all over or if it's just number one in drama, but it's doing really well. It's already been renewed and he just did SNL to promote it. Let's take a little bit of a look at that. But even though it's been a while, I've still been on the show a lot. In fact, I was checking my own Wikipedia, which I often do, and I found out that since then I've made 14 cameras cameos. Yeah, okay. Number one, he was looking at his own Wikipedia, which I would bet there's a big part of that Wikipedia that he would love to have just deleted. But he doesn't mention that. Instead, he's congratulating himself on being so freaking awesome. He's Jon Hamm and you're not. Are you as impressed with Jon Hamm as Jon Hamm is? I don't know that you could be. Take a look at him on his good friend Jimmy Fallon's show last week. You are a stud. You are a stud, Jon Hamm. Come on. I love you, bud. You're never wrong. You're never wrong. You're never wrong. I think all of us have been wrong about Jon Hamm for a very long time. You know, when he first burst on the scene with Mad Men, I mean, everyone, myself included, had a huge crush on this guy. And he sort of really kind of came in and. And was like a throwback to a very old school kind of masculinity. And even today, he still kind of has it. You know, he's really in stark contrast to like the Timothy Chalamet and those like, fae twee little guys who don't quite read as, I think, traditionally masculine, fair, whatever. But I would also like to say this before we get into the scandal that he has successfully written out and hidden lo these many years, Having just acted myself in a short little film called With Love Megan. That's Megan with a Y in which Megyn Kelly portrayed a Megan Markle adjacent character, in which I portrayed a Mindy Kaling adjacent character. One who displayed really just fear and servility and felt like a hostage throughout the whole thing. You know, we've gotten some really nice notices. We've heard the words Emmy and Oscar bandit about. So I say that just to tell you that I think I now can legitimately criticize another actor's skill set. And I'm going to tell you that I think Jon Hamm is a very limited actor. He only ever displays barely concealed rage. Okay? He's got one speed. That is it. Mad Men rage. Bridesmaids. He's a douche the town. He's playing an FBI agent. He's the good guy. He still manages to make that guy a douche. Now he's in this show called your friends and Neighbors, in which he's also playing, yet again, a douche. And in the first episode, this shocks me. I think it's played for laughs. I didn't find it very funny. He assaults his daughter's boyfriend. Watch. Jake, is it. If you call me sir one more time, I'm gonna put you in the dick.
- [05:33]
Susannah Cahalan
You're being crazy, Mom.
- [05:34]
Maureen Callahan
Dad's being crazy. You're okay with this?
- [05:36]
Susannah Cahalan
Go inside and get something to eat.
- [05:38]
Maureen Callahan
You know about this. You're fine with this? All right. Okay. Off, Jake. Right off. And then the Ham character makes good on his promise. You're gonna be here. What did you do? Oh, my God. I told you to stop calling me sir. So he punches this 20 year old kid in the genitals. And then in the following episode, he runs into this kid again. And instead of saying, thanks for not pressing charges, thanks for not suing me civilly, this is what he says. Well, I hope there's no lasting damage. And more importantly, hope there's no hard feelings. Okay, let's talk about lasting damage. When Jon Hamm was a frat boy at the University of Texas at Austin, he was the alleged ringleader of a fraternity hazing so savage he nearly killed a kid. Okay, and we're gonna go through the victim interview that was conducted in the wake of this frat hazing. The victim is named Mark, Mark Allen Sanders. And he begins by telling the investigators that he arrived to this frat hazing. And one John Hamm. His name is misspelled in this transcript, which I have every reason to believe is real. Here is the top sheet of this private investigation. So his name in the transcript is spelled with an H instead of just Jon. Jon Ham tells him to settle in because it is going to be a very long night. The first challenge that this pledge was supposed to complete was to know all of what Jon Ham called his bullshit. And the bullshit included his nicknames, one of which was MC Hammer. And because this kid Mark could not come up with the proper nicknames, he said he gets mad, meaning Jon Hamm. And I mean really mad. And he grabs us both. So now Jon Hamm has grabbed two pledges by either side. One arm here and one arm here. So think of the strength that that takes. So he marches these two little pledges upstairs where they meet two other frat boys who have a paddle, okay? And this isn't like a ping pong paddle. This is what the victim describes as a two handed wooden paddle that was at least a foot long. So that's solid wood. Okay? They begin to beat Mark Sanders. He says, very hard. Rearing back. These aren't love taps. He's hitting me left handed. I'm on my. So he's everywhere. He's on his right side, he's on his left side. Then at a, at a given point, John Hamm, again, according to this transcript, takes the paddle and the victim describes Jon Hamm rearing back. And he hits me right over my right kidney. I mean, square over it. Good solid hit. And that stood me up. So now this guy is like dying over where he's been hitting the kidney. He says, I'm hurting bad. I mean, being hit right where the kidney is, it's killing me. This was not the end for Mark. Next comes sawing, in which two of the brothers allegedly pulled up his underwear from inside his pants. Mark's pants. This is what he said. The more they pulled, the way they were pulling was one would be pulling up. They were pulling like it was sawing and it was hurting and it hurt. He doesn't even know how long they continued doing that. Now we get to John Hamm, who is described as an officer of the fraternity. Mark says that Jon Hamm was, quote, with me all night, never left me. So then Jon Hamm and the group lead me downstairs to the quote unquote pit. And this is like a sort of dirty, super confined space. And Mark is ordered to get in the dirt and begin forcibly doing push ups. Okay, his, his kidney is so damaged, like he can barely breathe. Now he's got to do push ups. Jon Hamm, according to this transcript. And another frat boy quote, they were actually pushing my face to get in the dirt. He told me to get my face in the dirt. And then all the pledges are taken out of there except me. I'm left in there with Jon Hamm, with who I believe is a true sadist. Jon Hamm is going to try to do cleanup on aisle nine. Trust me, you're not going to like it. So this pledge, Mark, brutally beaten, is trying to get up and walk out with the other pledges. Just get out of that pit. And Jon Hamm says to him, stay where you are. Not going anywhere. It's not over yet for you. Next up, if you've ever heard of somebody doing this, I, I would like to meet you because I've never heard of anything this savage. So now Mark is with Jon Ham. Okay. He's hearing other guys that are around me because they are so close, but he's really disoriented. Clearly at this point. Marcus, somebody's walking on his back. Okay? Forcible push ups, face in the dirt, walking on his back. Then this is where we pick up, quote, I'm told to stand up. So I get up on my knees again, obviously, he can't even stand up. And this is when Jon Hamm pulls out a lighter and he puts his lighter on. And I was wearing designer jeans, name redacted. And I have this loop on the front. And he took the lighter and caught that on fire. Question. This was Jon Hamm? Mark? Yeah. And my head is down. I mean, my chin is in the chest at this point. I see him light the lighter and put it to my pants. Did he say anything when he did that? Question, Mark? Yeah, he said something. I don't remember what it was. I tried to put out the fire immediately. Question. With your hand, Mark? Yeah, with my hand, but he knocked my hands away. Question, John Hamm knocked your hands, Mark? Yes, John Ham knocked my hand away. And I was kind of panicking because I was wearing a cotton T shirt. He could feel the heat. I actually tried to put it out with my hand. This is Mark again. And he, Jon Hamm wouldn't let me. He made me blow it out with my mouth. So the fire is put out, but Jon Hamm's not done. Now he's picked up a hammer, and I'll say it's Jon Hamm, Mark says, because he was the one wearing a dark overcoat. And I could see in the arm, the hammer and this dark overcoat. So Jon Hamm takes that hammer claw, hooks it under Mark Sanders genitals, and drags him around the room for about a solid minute. Let's talk about lasting damage, because this guy barely escaped with his life. He tells the investigators when he sits down with them weeks later that he's been to the doctor. He has a broken back. His spine is fractured. His doctor has told him he may lose his right kidney. He has extreme trauma. My kidney spasms and it re bruises itself. This is Mark, and he told me it was from being hit right over it, the kidney. I can remember feeling being hit hard right over this. Oh, he was also beaten with a broomstick. I forgot that part. Right over my rib cage. Whenever I breathe, my lung actually can't go all the way because it's pinned between my rib cage from, I assume it was beaten down, some beaten into me. He's got ligament damage, cartilage damage, artery, vein, nerve damage. His rib cage is bruised severely. If you've ever had rib cage pain, if you've ever broken a rib or had surgery, you know what that's like. He's worried that he's going to lose his kidney. The whole right side of my body, Mark tells them, is swollen severely. He has tried to give me medication to stop the swelling on my back, but it doesn't work. It doesn't help. Another pledge who survived that night said in his statement that he was so scared, even though he lives three hours away, that he was so scared to return to Austin because, quote, he doesn't know to what extent they, John Hamm and his frat brothers will go to get even for reporting this crime. Now, if I remember this correctly, because I remember reading about it when it first came out and nobody really covered it. It didn't really get pickup. And I could never understand why people have been canceled for a lot less. I mean, Kevin Spacey right now is selling off every piece of real estate he's ever purchased during his long and storied career. As far as I know, he has never been convicted of rape. He has never been criminally convicted in court of law in America. I think he got convicted of something in the uk but, you know, really, he was kind of a pig and he was gross and he was handsy, but he didn't do anything approaching this. As far as I know, Kevin Spacey can't get hired. Alec Baldwin is making a movie in Italy right now. Okay? He just finished a reality show that was an attempt to clean up his image. He shot and killed a woman on a set that he ran that saw the bulk of the crew members walk out the day of the shooting over firearm safety concerns. But because Jon Hamm looks like this, by the way, this is the new Interview magazine. He's interviewed by his good friend Tina Fey, in which they just tongue bathe each other. He says to her, it's not fun to work with people that aren't fun like him, I guess. He also says that he's a firm subscriber to the no assholes policy because if you're on that list of being an asshole, you're not getting calls. Not for nothing, Bettina Fey admitted in her book Posse Pants, and she's spoken about this in interviews, you can Google them, you'll find them that she was a mean girl in high school. This is another topic we're going to get to later in the show, Mean Girls. And I always wondered about people like her, like Kirsten Wiig, you know, who sort of like, helped Jon Hamm enter that SNL little clique, that comedy world. And my theory about them is that they were never the homecoming queens. They were the comedy nerd girls who kind of didn't fit in. And a guy like Jon Hamm comes along and pays them some attention and their knees buckle. They can't believe it. They can't believe a guy this hot would look twice at them. And so they're doing dirty work for him, in my opinion. You can't tell me they don't know about this. If I know about it, they have to know about it. And now we all know about it. There's another thing I want to touch on, and this goes to who in Hollywood is a protected class? Who in Hollywood will be summarily kicked out and never hired again? And who is just sort of considered like, kind of a bad boy? This is also the New York Times Magazine very recently, Bill Murray, who's out promoting a movie with Naomi Watts called the Friend. It's based on an incredible book by an author named Sigrid Nunez. If you've never heard of it, I suggest you look into it. It's basically a semi autobiographical novel. A friend of hers died and left her his dog. And it's this very unusual, non cliched, non sentimental, really beautiful love story. And so Bill Murray was promoting this movie with Naomi Watts on Watch what Happens Live, like a week or so ago. I watched it in real time. My jaw hit the floor. Look at this. Hi. And Naomi.
- [18:59]
Susannah Cahalan
So my question is, what has been the best on screen kiss of your career?
- [19:05]
Maureen Callahan
I mean. Oh, yes. So I watched that broadcast of Watch what Happens Live in Real Time. And I am convinced that Bravo and NBCUniversal went in and cleaned that clip up. Because I distinctly recall a wide shot in which I saw Bill Murray take an unwitting, unsuspecting Naomi Watts. He put one hand on top of her head, he put the other hand under her jaw, and he kept her head immobile. And he dragged her over to him and planted a kiss square on her mouth. And it was lengthy. It lasted for quite a bit. And what did Andy Cohen do? He sat there and he laughed. He laughed. He thought it was funny. And when Bill Murray finally released Naomi Watts, she. You could tell she was kind of in shock. And, you know, she's got to play the game, right? Bill Murray looks straight at the camera and gives It. A thumbs up. A thumbs up. This New York Times Magazine piece, by the way, I mean, where did I mark it? He talks about basically, like, kind of being an asshole, you know, and, like, he's. I. He's had assault accusations leveled at him before. He's not a guy you want to get angry, so. But he gets away with this. Like, everybody gives him back. Why? Because, like, Bill Murray's cool. Because he's funny. Because he's kind of, like, irasable. He gets a pass for this. If I'm Naomi Watts, I would never work with him again. And I would maybe consider pressing charges. I don't know. But I want to circle back one more time to Jon Hamm, because there's something else about him that I find particularly despicable. And there's a kind of guy who does this and gets off on it. He was with his girlfriend, Jennifer Westfeldt for about 18 years, and when they got together, he was the struggling one, and she was the one who had a little bit more success. She's a screenwriter, an actress, a director. She would put him in her movies. She made a semi autobiographical movie called. I think it's called Friends With Kids. And it was sort of informed by her life with John Ham, who would give all these interviews talking about how he wasn't like a marriage guy. He didn't want to have kids. He had a lot of trauma in his past. And what does he do when Mad Men comes to an end? He dumps Jennifer Westfeld. I mean, they said it was mutual, but I think we can all fairly read the tea leaves on that one. He gets with a minor actress on Mad Men, practically an extra, right? So someone whose talent level is never going to eclipse his. She's half his age. He marries her, and he starts giving interviews about how he thinks he wants children now, which I'm sure Jennifer Westfeld is so happy. She sacrificed so much of her own dreams and life ambitions for that piece of shit. And finally, in fairness to Jon Hamm, which I think is more than he deserves, he did address these accusations, this reporting of the fraternity hazing that nearly killed a kid. A kid, by the way, who went on to become a doctor and a lawyer, okay? And he specializes in, what do you think? Medical malpractice. Okay? That guy is a true contributing member of society. What, did Jon Hamm become a celebrity? Are you fucking kidding me? Jon Hamm told Esquire In, I think, 2015 of the allegations, quote, I wouldn't say it's accurate. Everything about that is Sensationalized. Not a denial. I was accused of these things. I don't ellipses. It's so hard to get into. I don't want to give it any more breath. Not a denial. It was a bummer of a thing that happened. Break that apart. A bummer. A bummer is like you go to the surf shop and they're out of your favorite, like, you know, oil or whatever. This is not a bummer. This is not a summer bummer. This is a vicious assault on a defenseless kid. You bullied, bullied and bullied him because he wanted to be cool like you. A bummer of a thing that happened. It didn't happen, John. You did it. You assaulted somebody. I was caught up. He continues. I was caught up. Poor me. I, I, I, me, me, me. I was caught up in a big situation. A stupid kid in a stupid situation. A bummer. I moved on from it. Well, I don't think that Mark Allen Sanders will probably ever move on from it, from the trauma, from whatever lasting medical damage that you inflicted on him. This guy is lucky. He escaped with his life. And Jon Hamm gets to go sit on Jimmy Fallon and laugh it up about what a cool guy he is. Fuck that guy. Okay, segment one, we're done. And we're going to move on in the next segment to a really deep dive on mean girls in adulthood. Let me tell you a story about a guy named Leo Grillo. While on a road trip, Leo came across a Doberman. This dog was severely underweight and clearly in trouble. Leo rescued that Doberman and named him Delta. Sadly, Delta was just one of far too many animals that needed help, which inspired Leo to start Delta Rescue, the largest no kill, care for life animal sanctuary in the world. They've rescued thousands of dogs, cats and horses from the wilderness, and they provide their animals with shelter, love, safety, and a home. This dedication and everlasting love to animals is Leo's mission and legacy. Delta Rescue relies solely on contributions from people like us. And if you want caring for these animals to be part of your legacy, you could speak with your estate planner because there are tax saving estate planning benefits too. You can grow your estate while letting your love for animals live well into the future. Check out the estate planning tab on their website to learn more and speak with an advisor. We call dogs man's best friend and woman's best friend for a reason. You can help those who need it most. So please visit Deltarescue.org today to learn more. That's Delta Rescue.br Race the Rudders. Raise the sails. Raise the sails. Captain, an unidentified ship is approaching. Over. Roger, wait. Is that an enterprise sales solution? Reach sales professionals, not professional sailors. With LinkedIn ads, you can target the right people by industry, job title, and more. We'll even give you a $100 credit on your next campaign. Get started today at LinkedIn.com results, terms and conditions apply. Org. Welcome back to the Nerve. So let's talk about mean girls, Mean girls in adulthood, which I find endlessly fascinating and has been sort of in the culture very recently. There are a couple of main examples that occur to me, and I'll bet to you guys, too. The first is a story that has had real legs. And because it's a mean girl's friendship thing and a real friendship breakup, I think that this is why people are still talking about it. It is the epic final episode of the Real Housewives of Beverly Hills reunion, which saw Garcelle Beauvoir, who is a fan favorite and in my estimation, one of the greatest ever to do it, sitting on the couch next to her actual friend on and off the show, Sutton Strack. And she is betrayed in real time by Sutton, who is so desperate for these terrible viperish women to like her and accept her into their clique that you watch her turn on Garcelle and you watch Garcelle's expression register this in real time how she is being iced out of the show and out of the friend group. Take a look. Not one person had looked at me here and smiled. I mean, just through the day. Yeah. When we first got here. Yes, but nothing else. So that's exhibit A of what mean girls do in the sort of stages of ejection. The minute Garcelle said, nobody has even smiled at me all day, the concerned faces come right up. Really? Oh, you mean all of you who have been icing this woman out are now suddenly concerned and saddened by this expression of feeling. Just cut out completely. I'm shocked. Okay, here's stage two. I was smiling when I first got here, and then it all changed. But it's okay. It's okay. Well, it's not okay because you're upset. It's okay. And. And that's how you can tell that her emotion is genuine, because you see her mouth begin to collapse, which is sort of the first stage when you're about to lose control and begin openly crying. And you don't want to cry, so you're really trying to fight it. And, you know, Andy Cohen, of course, leaning in and saying, well, it's not okay. Well, the whole entire point of you being there is to behave like this. Led by the ringleader, Andy Cohen himself, who, trust me, does not like women. I love your channel. I watch it all the time. He does not like women. Third and final stage of mean Girl expulsion is here. Nobody said, oh, okay, you have accountability. Everybody jumped on me and I felt like I was on an island by myself. I can't be friends with people like that. I don't trust them. I don't trust them. And they obviously don't like me. I don't get it.
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Susannah Cahalan
Maybe it feels unfair.
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Maureen Callahan
What's unfair, though?
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Susannah Cahalan
I don't really.
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Maureen Callahan
Okay, so now they're all convening and saying they don't understand why this woman is so upset. And that last statement by Sutton Strack, the blonde woman in the ball gown who said, I don't really understand it. She knows Garcelle better than anybody on that cast. She just wants to be one of them so badly. And trust me, next season, if she comes back, she will be eaten alive. And she deserves it. So. Joining me now is Dr. Erin Foster, who is an expert in this kind of aggression. Thank you, Dr. Erin Foster, for joining us.
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Dr. Erin Foster
Thank you, Maureen.
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Maureen Callahan
So I've been thinking about this a lot because there was what we just saw, this most recent season of the White Lotus, expertly depicted among a group of three lifelong friends. Middle aged, successful, beautiful, accomplished, fit, wealthy. All of it tearing each other down in the subtlest ways possible. But they were pointed and mean. And then of course, you know, I have a goddaughter who's 11 who's going through this. I talk to her about the psychodynamics of sixth grade all the time. And the one thing I never say to her is, it gets better, because it doesn't. If anything, it just gets worse and more subtle. So tell me why this persists in adulthood.
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Dr. Erin Foster
Well, this kind of behavior ex. Continues. One, it exists for two reasons, psychologically and then behaviorally, why does it persist? That comes down to how self aware are you and how willing are you to increase your insight about your self awareness. And the root of this is deep insecurity. That seems obvious, but the insecurity is rooted in fear. The reason this persists is that some sort of childhood wound, some lack of attachment, continues to persist into adulthood. So that's the psychology behind this, is what wound, what attachment is not secure. And now you have this self seeking, very deeply insecure, attention seeking behavior. And the thought, the belief is, I'm not Good enough, I'm not worthy enough. And I am terrified that somebody else is going to think the same thing about me. So what am I going to do? I'm going to project and I'm going to put it onto somebody else. And this is really a reflection of how someone thinks and feels about themselves.
- [32:03]
Maureen Callahan
So we don't hurt people. Hurt people. Exactly. And I completely understand that psychology. But you know, I think one of the things I struggle with is just because somebody is struggling with their own insecurities, their own childhood trauma, it does not give you license to behave like an asshole.
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Dr. Erin Foster
That's right, it doesn't. And let's call this what it is, bullying. And bullying is really abuse. So let's take a deeper look at the behavior behind bullying. I'm a behavioral analyst and I look at four areas of behavior in how you do something and then six areas of why do you do it? Your value, your motivation. One of the scales is about power and control. So if you do not have a healthy self awareness, if you do not, it also, if you haven't been modeled how to treat people, you will want to have power and control over others. Now when you combine that with somebody who wants to get ahead, who is looking to produce a result with this behavior now, they become incredibly dominant. And then when you see that dominance, that's the bullying. And then the abuse comes out when it's, I want to have power over you.
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Maureen Callahan
So I've, you know, in the days leading up to our conversation, I've really been giving this so much thought. I read the sort of Rosetta Stone of books on this topic, which is Queen Bees and Wannabes by Rosalind Wiseman. And that was actually Tina Fey's basis for the movie Mean Girls. Are you sensing a thread here, guys? And the one thing that book did not answer was the question that I really have, which is where is this rooted in? It has to be more macro than any one specific childhood trauma or attachment issues or fear of not having power, control, wanting to be liked, wanting to be queen bee. And I really think, and I'm curious as to your thoughts, it must be rooted in evolution when there was a time when women had to compete with each other for very limited resources. And those resources being men who could hunt, kill, father, provide, protect. But we are long past that now. And in fact we are in an era where it's made even worse because of social media, where. Yeah, which my favorite aggression on social media is the post of everyone's hanging out without you. Everyone in your friend And I've heard this story so many times, all generations of women. So again, talk to me about why this persists when honestly, we all know.
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Dr. Erin Foster
Better, we do know better, and there is no excuse for it. And it's. It's petty and it's immature. And if we look at it from an evolutionary anthropological perspective, you had to think about self preservation in order to survive. And I like what you're saying about the strongest, fittest man, the one who could provide food, is how you would survive. That's deeply rooted in our DNA. Well, you also had to survive based on the community. So when I look at it from that lens, in terms of social media, which has become too permissive to focus on self preservation versus am I treating someone with kindness? Am I treating someone the way I would wish to be treated? And that goes back to the self awareness. Well, social media has allowed us to not be self aware. It's given us permission. If I'm going to look at it from a Jungian psychoanalytic lens, it's given us permission to hide behind a mask. And what is the Persona that I'm going to put out? But is that Persona rooted in am I thinking about how to help someone else? Or is it rooted in how do I help myself in?
- [36:18]
Maureen Callahan
Or is it just that? Is it just that your kink is being mean to people that you feel have something you don't and you can't take it out on yourself or you'd rather not, so you're going to take it out on that person? I want to share with you a personal anecdote from my adulthood, which, again, this is why I never tell my goddaughter, it's going to get better. So this was around the height of COVID the height of lockdown, and everybody sort of had their pods because you had to have some sort of social connection to get through it intact. And I had a neighbor invite me to a little outdoor dinner that she was going to host. And I really wasn't comfortable with it. And I said, I'll think about it. I don't really know. I was. The next day I went to go pick up my phone to text my regrets, and she texted me and said, you know, one of my friends, she blamed it on one of her friends she's not comfortable with. Too big of a group. So you're not invited anymore. You're disinvited. I had never gotten a message like that in my entire life. It was literally like, just to be clear, don't come. And I was Surprised how much it made me upset. Like I almost, like I could feel tears like springing up. And it's not because I particularly liked this person. It was kind of a friendship of convenience, but it was more that somebody could be so cruel at the height of a, of a, of a fear freaking pandemic. Then the next day she finds me on this little road we live on. She's chasing me. Oh, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. You know, that was so and so's fault. She was the one who said you couldn't come. I said, oh, you mean your friend who went to a party out in East Hampton where people with COVID knowingly showed up and she's worried about like infection. I said, did she get her COVID test before she came to your house? Oh, no. You know, and in that moment I was like, this is just too limited and sad of a person for me to even really give a shit about. But the act of being so deliberately cruel was the thing that transcended everything for me. And I couldn't believe it. A middle aged woman behaving like this. So that's just a little bit of bruising from my own personal experience. But what's like the worst you've heard or has happened to you in terms of female aggression in adulthood?
- [38:45]
Dr. Erin Foster
Oh, wow. Female aggression in adulthood. First, you know, I'm sorry that happened because it's really a reflection of how she feels about herself and.
- [38:56]
Maureen Callahan
Oh, clearly, you know. Yeah, no, I figured that out.
- [38:59]
Dr. Erin Foster
People with character, people with integrity don't go around intentionally wishing to destroy other people. And based on my own experiences of having overt aggression for something I did not do is really about somebody who is jealous and intimidated and desperately wants what you have. Because people like you, that have light, that speak truth, people who don't have that want that, and we live in this culture now that is permissive to be cruel. We live in this culture where now it is accessible to be unkind. And it really takes strength and it takes being brave to say, don't care, don't need that. I'm going to stand up to that.
- [39:52]
Maureen Callahan
Well, thank you for those kind words. Trust me, I survived intact and that person did me a huge favor. But when do you know, Dr. Aaron, when it's time to try to have a conversation with a friend who you feel has really done something hurtful and it feels deliberate, it feels like a little bit of a shiv. And how do you know when it's time to just Remove oneself from either that friendship or that specific friend group.
- [40:22]
Dr. Erin Foster
Great question. When do I walk away? So I talk about, is this in alignment with my authentic self? If I choose to be associated or engage with this person, am I honoring my authentic self? Does the energy flow? And we all know friendship is about mutual trust, respect, and communication. So you have to weigh, is this worth having a conversation where there can be a repair? Or do you consider the source and say, am I suffering a fool and do I protect myself by having a boundary and walking away? So I always look at what is the longevity of the friendship. Has there been shared mutual experiences that have bonded us in trust and respect and admiration? And if I can say yes, then. Then I say yes. You go to a friend and say, this is what I perceived happened. This is how I felt about it. I'd like to discuss it. If you don't believe that will be well received, and if you believe that they you and you have evidence to suggest that it's only going to continue, cut your losses, walk away. Because that's having a boundary. And boundaries are healthy.
- [41:41]
Maureen Callahan
You know, it's. I feel like it's so easy to say that. I think, you know, when most women are confronted with a decision like that, you know, you really have to parse it out in your. First of all, I think you have to just calm down and get to the point where the emotions have subsided and you can begin to think a little bit logically. Like you said, evaluate the length of the friendship, the depth of the friendship, you know, the importance of it. Because I do think, and I think a lot of women feel this way. I certainly do. A friendship breakup, a best friendship breakup, can be as devastating, if not more so, than the breakup of a romantic relationship. Can you talk to that?
- [42:19]
Dr. Erin Foster
So women friendship is really rooted in a mutual understanding. We have experiences that we don't have with men friends or romantic partners. And there is a deep understanding. It's the connectivity and the bonding comes in shared experience and things that we go through as women. And there's a significant amount of trust there. And so losing a deep friendship is incredibly wounding because it's destabilizing a piece of your identity. Women have so many roles that we play that, that participate in who we are and so many roles that define who we are. And when you feel like you have someone that has your back and you lose that, you're. You're losing a sense of self.
- [43:09]
Maureen Callahan
Before I let you go, I want to ask you, what would you adv. You know, it's one thing for women to sort of hash this out. And, you know, we have. We've been through adolescence. Brains are fully formed. What would you advise you tell a child in your life, be it your daughter, a niece, a godchild, who is dealing with this stuff day in and day out at school, where the alliances shift by the minute.
- [43:33]
Dr. Erin Foster
Oh, man.
- [43:34]
Maureen Callahan
What would you say to a kid who is struggling with this stuff?
- [43:38]
Dr. Erin Foster
So I see this all the time in my office. And my approach is I first ask them who they are. I ask the child, who do you know you are? And I really like to root them in a sense of their belief in their own value and worth first. And I encourage that and I support that and reinforce it. And then I ask them what do they believe to be true about the other person? And then the other piece that I weave into this is, what do you think is happening with them? Because their behavior is a reflection of them. And I do this because I think it's important to understand what motivates people and that there may be something bigger going on with this other person so that they're. They have a sense of compassion for people who are hurting, but also knowing this is not safe. This is not a safe person. So I walk away.
- [44:40]
Maureen Callahan
Absolutely. And those are the conversations that I have with my goddaughter. You know, what's going on at that kid's home. It's always something not great, you know, but that said, it doesn't really do anything to lessen the emotional impact of, like, being the kid who's left out. And, like, this is a kid who, by the way, like, has everything going for her. You know, she's not what you would consider somebody who would be, like, an easy target. She's not a soft target. She's, you know, and it doesn't really do anything still to ameliorate the actual physical, emotional, just hurt of being the one who's left out of the party, who's off the invite list, who somebody moves away from at the lunch table. Like, what would you tell a kid in those moments? Like, here's your best coping mechanism. Here's what you do at the lunch table when someone moves away, for example.
- [45:33]
Dr. Erin Foster
So. So in those moments, what you have to do is help them to process what is happening and give them the language for their feelings, give them the word to use with what they are feeling, and then an action. We move through emotion, through action. And I really work with kids, especially teenagers. What can you do with how you feel in order to empower yourself? While also normalizing that. Normalizing the feeling, not the behavior.
- [46:10]
Maureen Callahan
So revenge isn't on your list?
- [46:13]
Dr. Erin Foster
Well, it depends. Could be.
- [46:15]
Maureen Callahan
Oh really? What kind of revenge? Would you let the courage. Wink, wink. What would you. What would you say?
- [46:22]
Dr. Erin Foster
The crime.
- [46:24]
Maureen Callahan
Interesting. I like it. I like it. It's got some teeth.
- [46:28]
Dr. Erin Foster
Because a bully responds to strength.
- [46:31]
Maureen Callahan
Exactly. Exactly right. Exactly right. I couldn't agree with you more. Yes. Well, Dr. Aaron, thank you so much for coming on and talking about this. I think this is a conversation that will be ongoing. Everyone email me at MaureenVilMaycare Media. Tell me what you think, tell me your experiences, tell me what more you'd like to hear here on this and other topics. I will be reading all of them very eagerly and avidly. Thanks again to Dr. Aaron. And on the other side of this break, we are going to have, speaking of friends, one of my closest friends who I am so excited to bring on the Nerve and introduce all of you to Susannah Cahalan. She is a best selling author, she's got a great new book and we are going to have a fascinating conversation. You're going to be surprised where it goes. So stay with us. You know the secret to great days, better nights? It all starts by turning your bedroom into a sanctuary with cozy earth. Their bamboo sheet set is something special. It is the softest, coolest, most luxurious sheets you'll ever own. Breathable, temperature regulating and crafted to help you sleep like it actually matters. Because it does, it is so crucial to your overall health. Imagine crawling into bed every night and feeling restored, refreshed and ready to take on tomorrow. And don't forget about their bamboo pajamas. Lightweight, yet cozy, they're designed to help you fall asleep faster and stay asleep longer. It's the sleepwear upgrade you didn't know you needed, but you definitely deserve. Cozy Earth makes it easy to try for yourself. You get 100 nights risk free to fall in love. Plus, every bedding product is backed by a 10 year warranty. So take the time to prioritize your sleep and prioritize you. Visit cozyearth.com and start sleeping better with cozy Cozyearth today. That's cozyearth.com welcome back to the Nerve. I couldn't have hoped for a better guest for my first episode than my wonderful, beautiful dear friend Susannah Cahalan. She is the author of the million plus bestselling memoir Brain on Fire. Not many writers can say they've sold over a million copies of by the way, what was her first book? A memoir. It's been translated into Like a bazillion languages. It has changed the face of modern medicine and the way women and girls are treated because of Susannah's case. And she's got a fascinating new book out, which we're going to all talk about. On the off chance that you don't know Susannah's story. Charlize Theron made a movie out of it. And we're going to take a look at a little bit of the trailer. And it's going to set you up, and you're going to fall in love with Susanna as much as everyone who knows her does. We've tested Susanna for every infectious disease.
- [49:44]
Susannah Cahalan
All of the results are negative.
- [49:46]
Maureen Callahan
We're gonna get to the bottom of this together.
- [49:49]
Susannah Cahalan
Her EEG is completely normal. Her MRI is normal. Her neurological exam is normal.
- [49:54]
Maureen Callahan
It's all normal.
- [49:55]
Dr. Erin Foster
Her condition continues to regress. Manic behavior, paranoia, nature of the mistake.
- [50:02]
Maureen Callahan
Giving us a different diagnosis.
- [50:03]
Susannah Cahalan
One is saying bipolar.
- [50:04]
Maureen Callahan
Next one is saying schizophrenic.
- [50:06]
Susannah Cahalan
Then they're saying psychotic.
- [50:08]
Dr. Erin Foster
We should look at hospitals that are.
- [50:10]
Maureen Callahan
Better equipped to deal with. Just take the pills. She needs all of us.
- [50:16]
Susannah Cahalan
We will find the answer.
- [50:19]
Maureen Callahan
Her life is in your hands. Tell me what is wrong with my daughter. You must be the famous Susanna.
- [50:26]
Dr. Erin Foster
I'm scared.
- [50:26]
Maureen Callahan
I know she's still in there. She's just trapped. I promise you I'm going to do everything I can to find you. No. No. God, no.
- [50:36]
Dr. Erin Foster
Time is of the essence.
- [50:38]
Maureen Callahan
You're losing time. So I rewatched that this morning and Susanna, like, I got emotional. I still get very emotional about your. And I know, like, you have moved on. You have a beautiful family. You married Stephen. One of the most googled questions about you did you gotta marry Steven, who is such a good sport about that movie. I remember watching it when you got the link to the rough cut and poor Stephen sat there. There was a scene where he's playing guitar to you naked and he's like, that never happened.
- [51:14]
Susannah Cahalan
That was the part he really took issue with, I think, in the whole thing.
- [51:17]
Maureen Callahan
But, yeah, he's such a good sport. And. And now you guys have three beautiful children and your book has truly. I mean, you have given talks about this all over the world. It really has changed modern medicine and the ways in which I think doctors and physicians now look at girls and women who come in. Because you had a very rare autoimmune disease. You were only the 217th person in the world to be diagnosed with it. You were on the verge of being sent off to a psychiatric institution to live out what would have been the rest of your days. Talk about how you think this book in particular in your story, you know, the. The woman who presents as, quote, unquote hysterical can no longer be minimized that way.
- [52:03]
Susannah Cahalan
Oh, my gosh, what a beautiful way of introducing that. That was the hope, really, when I was writing the book and thinking no one would ever read it. That was a hope of mine that I would changed the way women were treated when they would come in with an acutely psychotic episode. And that's, I mean, it's amazing to say, but it's true. I think because of my story and the kind of spreading the word about the condition. I think that women and a lot of children too, young girls, there are boys as well, but smaller segment of the population. But now the illness that I had, which was an autoimmune encephalitis, that would be now on the rule out diagnosis list before 2009 when I was treated, that wouldn't be. So you would probably leave with a psychiatric diagnosis. At the time it was about 90% of people. Adults would be diagnosed with schizophrenia presenting as I presented, and children would be diagnosed with autism. I really do think that that is not the case now in large part to the amazing amount of research that has happened, but in some part to my book as well.
- [53:13]
Maureen Callahan
Oh, 100%. Do your book. And, you know, it's not as though a misdiagnosis of autoimmune encephalitis is no big deal. Like it can kill you.
- [53:21]
Susannah Cahalan
Yeah.
- [53:22]
Maureen Callahan
It can rob you. Even if they didn't. If they hadn't caught yours in time, if Dr. Najjar, who has become world famous because of Brain on Fire, hadn't caught yours, you could have been left with severe deficits.
- [53:34]
Susannah Cahalan
Absolutely. In fact, there are other cases of people who have been misdiagnosed for longer periods. I, I only was misdiagnosed for a month, really. And there was one case. I did a lot of grand rounds and conversations about my, you know, what happened.
- [53:49]
Maureen Callahan
Explain what grand rounds is to people who don't know.
- [53:51]
Susannah Cahalan
Typically, it's not a patient who leads them, it's usually doctors, but they usually talk about a condition or research that they're working on with other doctors or physicians in training. And I went around and spoke to many universities around the country about autoimmune encephalitis. And there was one really important and really tragic experience that I had at a psychiatric hospital where I, I was presenting on my case and a physician came up to me after and Said, we have a case here of a woman who has almost the same profile as you, you know, presented the same. But the big difference between us was that she had been there for about two years. I followed up with him, he tested her, her spinal fluid and found out that yes, indeed, she did have autoimmune encephalitis. But the big difference was that amount of time had a huge effect on her brain. And he actually used the words, he said that she probably would not progress cognitively past a two year old.
- [54:45]
Maureen Callahan
Oh my God.
- [54:46]
Susannah Cahalan
I mean, people do die. And, you know, my physician and the physician who discovered the illness, Dr. Joseph Dalmail, believes that it has been around for as long as humankind has. So this was a misdiagnosis throughout history.
- [54:59]
Maureen Callahan
And that women would be either, you know, you're a witch, you're burned at the stake, you know, like all of these things. The book is also so my origin story with you and our friendship. I didn't know you before you were sick. I didn't know you when you were sick. I knew you after you got better. You came back. We were both working at the New York Post. You wound up sitting at the desk next to me. And I knew you when you were writing the book, but I didn't know the Susannah before. The Susanna I know is, you know, you're one of. If I have a real dilemma, you're one of the first people I go to because you're very wise, you're very smart, you're very sensitive. You also, I think, and I really want to get into this with you because it leads into the Acid Queen. I feel like you are. I asked you this once. You're a rationalist, you are, but you also have a deep connection to like the spirit world, to what I think are other dimensions really. You have a real openness to it. And I wonder, do you think had you not, quote, unquote, lost your mind, like it wasn't there for a month, that you would have emerged with this kind of openness to things that are unexplained?
- [56:18]
Susannah Cahalan
What a question. What a beautiful question. And so many. I mean, I think you're onto something there. It's so hard for me to genuinely access the person I was before and compare that. But I do feel to talk in this kind of, you know, non rationalist way. But when you cross a line, whether you want to call it another realm, another state of consciousness, you know, I had out of body experiences really. I saw myself from above.
- [56:51]
Maureen Callahan
You did?
- [56:51]
Susannah Cahalan
I did. I saw myself on the television I saw floating eyes looking at me. I mean, I had. At one point I felt I was so powerful. I had the ability to kind of mess with time. I had really strange altered states, but profound altered states. And not all of them, most of them extremely negative, but not all of them. And I think just so much of what Brain on Fire was, was an urge and a desire to like, harness it and to explain it. This can be explained through neuroscience. We can understand that this part of the brain can create hallucination. So this is not me. It's something that happened to me. I think in a lot of ways it was a way of like moving away from that kind of openness because it was scary. And I wanted to kind of assert my sanity in some ways. Right. You know, we met at the New York Post. Tabloid news reporters. You want people to take you seriously, you know, so putting that book out was a way of saying, like, no, no, no, I'm good. I'm not mentally ill. I have this autoimmune disease and I'm back on solid ground. And in the years since I wrote another book about psychiatry and the limits there and the limits of medicine in general, I started becoming more and more open to a non materialist, this idea that there are things that we can't explain with the kind of rational world, that there are other realms and there are other ways of thinking and ways of being. And you know, of course I like. I don't want my head to get, you know, I don't want my brain to fall out of my head by being too open. So I'm always careful not to go too far. But I think that you're. I think you're onto something. I think that experience changed me. And I think in that way of making me, you know, kind of touching down on this other, other possibilities out there, I think that that's undeniable for sure.
- [58:41]
Maureen Callahan
Yeah, I remember. So you were one of my first calls after I had what I can only describe as I didn't. I didn't. I couldn't call it that at the time. I have come to think of it. Well, I'll just. I'll just set it up. I called you about. I think it was the day after my dad died. And, you know, I had been very, very close to him. But the last year of his life, he was particularly difficult and we did not have the greatest connection. And I was staying at my childhood home with my dog, and in the middle of the night, I jackknifed out of bed when I heard like a boom. Like, it was a boom. It was. The front door of the house had been kicked in. It had hit the wall so violently. And I said to myself, there are two men in this house and I might die tonight. And I just hope it's fast. And I sat there and I did the thing that people do in horror movies that you think you would never do, right? I'm like, do I call 91 1? They're gonna think I'm stupid if I'm, like, overreacting. Like, do I go downstairs? I went to the top of the staircase. I looked down there. There was. The door was closed. I went downstairs. Nobody was in the house. I went back upstairs. The dog was asleep. My dog, by the way, my guard dog. He alerts, like, 10 minutes before someone shows up. That's Teddy Van Halen.
- [60:09]
Susannah Cahalan
Yes.
- [60:09]
Maureen Callahan
Okay. Named after Eddie Van Halen, the rock God. He shares coloring in some wild man tendencies.
- [60:16]
Susannah Cahalan
Oh, 100%.
- [60:17]
Maureen Callahan
But this dog, he is so on alert. I think he's like. He's like the dog on the bin Laden raid. Like, don't come up. Don't come unannounced to the house. So anyway, I go back upstairs and I surprise the shit out of myself by saying this thing out loud. You can go over to the other side. You should go all the way over to the other side. It's okay. We are all going to be okay. And I called you and I told you this, and I said, I think it was probably an auditory hallucination of some. And you said, maureen, no. Like, I know you have your beliefs, but you need to be open to this. Maybe being your dad, like, making a sound on his way out the door.
- [60:57]
Susannah Cahalan
There's another part of the story. Remember what you found outside of your house?
- [61:02]
Maureen Callahan
Oh, my God. Right? Oh, my God. So I got back after, like, a week away, after we buried him, which, by the way, we buried him in a military veteran cemetery that's not very far from where I live. And my dad was like a lifelong drinker of Budweiser in a can. And I got back to my house and there was a crushed can of Budweiser in my otherwise well manicured front yard. Like, there was like, there was no construction going on. I don't drink beer that much. Like, there was no way I don't have it in my house. And I took a picture and I did send it to you because I was like, this is. This is wild. And we've had some other winks and nods, but you have also helped humble Me and opened me up to the idea that, guess what? I don't know everything.
- [61:51]
Susannah Cahalan
I like to think that's the thing. I think it's the humility part. Right. Not knowing, you know, being open to it.
- [61:57]
Maureen Callahan
Yes. And this. So this brings us to your new book, the Acid Queen, which I'm going to hold up right here. This book is incredible. It is the true story of a woman named Rosemary Woodruff Leary. She was married to Timothy Leary, who was, like, the guru of the counterculture in the 60s. She was beautiful, vibrant, smart, and she really ran the show. Otherwise forgotten to history until you found her. Susanna. The people who make cameos in this book include John Lennon, Yoko Ono, the Black Panthers. There's a jailbreak that Rosemary masterminds, Uma Thurman's mother, Winona Ryder. I could go on. Talk to me about Rosemary and her connection to other worlds and other dimensions.
- [62:45]
Susannah Cahalan
Oh, yeah. You know, Rosemary was so. She was born in 1935, and she was born in St. Louis, and at the age of 8, she had a kind of. I would say a mystical experience. She had something that opened her up very young, and I think that that really set the course of her life, you know, that what happened then kind of opened her up to what would come next. And she was a seeker, and she wanted to believe. I think she wanted to believe in herself as a great character. I think she wanted to see herself as in a kind of in history. And she thought very highly of herself in a lot of ways. But what was available to her at the time was very limited. She became. She got married at 17, a very abusive relationship, left that husband, went off to New York, started modeling, no high school degree, and started to experiment with psychedelic drugs that were becoming very popular at the time and were not yet illegal. And in that, she really found that altered state, that connection with the kind of other world that she had found when she was 8 years old.
- [63:47]
Maureen Callahan
And what really roots this book is this enormous love story between her and Timothy Leary, who was one of the most famous men in America at the time, one of the most wanted by the feds. They wind up fleeing to Algeria at one point. It's like. It's wild, like romance, and it's also like a really bad romance. Like, I know you probably think she did get a lot out of that relationship, and I think so, too. But I think he was a bad guy. I'm harder than you are on Tim Leary. I don't like him, but Rosemary liked him, and that's what's important.
- [64:25]
Susannah Cahalan
I had to learn to like him because I had to see it through her eyes. But I understand what you're saying completely.
- [64:30]
Maureen Callahan
Yeah. I had the same thing with Jackie and Jack Kennedy.
- [64:32]
Susannah Cahalan
100%.
- [64:33]
Maureen Callahan
I had to see Jack through Jackie's eyes.
- [64:35]
Susannah Cahalan
It wouldn't work if not.
- [64:36]
Maureen Callahan
It doesn't work if not. Like, you kind of have to figure out a way to fall in love with them. But when I was going back through your book the other night, I had forgotten this, and I probably trauma blocked it out of my mind because he did something to her that was such a betrayal. He used love letters to try to convince her to take the rap for him. Yeah, talk about that.
- [65:00]
Susannah Cahalan
Yeah, I mean, he completely used her, especially when he escaped from prison. She masterminds that escape. She oversees it. She kind of gives up everything in her life for him, her identity, really. And at some point, she decides it's too much and she leaves him, and he gets arrested and he decides to cooperate with the federal government. And at that point, he actually hands over these letters, these love letters that they'd exchange where they'd also talk in code about the escape to basically hand her over to the federal government and try to kind of get them to kind of focus on her so that he could get off. He could get some time off of his jail sentence. And that was really an ultimate betrayal there.
- [65:43]
Maureen Callahan
It was such an ultimate betrayal. And, you guys, the Acid Queen is out today. Please go and buy it, order Susannah's book and read it and enjoy it as much as I did. You have never read a story like this, and we need more writers in the world like Susannah, so support her and buy her book. Now, Rosemary, this story takes yet another incredible turn. She decides to go underground, which I don't even know if in today's social media world, people even have a concept of what that is to do. I mean, you basically just vacate yourself and you vacate your life and you vacate planet Earth and you're nowhere to be found, and you're living under an alias, and you live in fear that anybody might figure out who you are and turn you in and your life will be over. I mean, talk a little bit about how long Rosemary stayed underground and the toll that that took on her.
- [66:36]
Susannah Cahalan
Yeah, she was underground for 25 years, and she was living, you know, basically at the poverty line. She. She somehow still filed her taxes at various points, so I could see that she was $12,000 a year running it in.
- [66:50]
Maureen Callahan
And don't fuck with the irs.
- [66:52]
Susannah Cahalan
Yeah, seriously, you can do that.
- [66:53]
Maureen Callahan
You can run from the feds, but not with her fake name.
- [66:56]
Susannah Cahalan
She filed her taxes and, you know, she really. And you know, she was terrified of breaking the law in any way. I mean, she drove like 15 miles an hour everywhere.
- [67:07]
Dr. Erin Foster
Everywhere.
- [67:08]
Susannah Cahalan
Wow. She was constantly looking at people thinking they recognized her. Imagine being that scene all the time, but also being completely unseen because no one really knows. So it's a state of like being hyper vigilant, but also invisible. And it was stressful. It was stressful. And. And also, I mean, she couldn't. She had no money and she was under underground. She didn't have health healthcare, so she couldn't go to a dentist, you know, and she died very young. She died at 66. And I think a great deal of that is due to the lack of health care and also the massive amounts of stress she was under when she was underground.
- [67:42]
Maureen Callahan
And I think too, the loneliness. And I think that's why this story is so resonant and poignant and moving and also just unbelievable. Again, you've got to get the book, the Acid Queen. It's out today, but I think all of us who are still kind of crawling out of the trauma that was COVID lockdown, have a real true understanding of the toll that isolation from other human beings, from being seen by other human beings. What that really does to you.
- [68:09]
Susannah Cahalan
That's beautiful. I think that's so true. And I think, you know, she developed this armor around herself and she was a very open. We talk about openness. She was extremely open. And the psychedelics opened her up even further. And when her husband turned on her, when the world really turned on her, she developed this armor as a way of protecting herself, but it wasn't a natural state. And I think in some ways it was very difficult for her to maintain that distance from people, but it had calloused over to the point where she really kind of forgot that magical quality that really defines her. In her earlier years, she kind of had to let that go, which is very tragic.
- [68:50]
Maureen Callahan
And you know, by the way, that was not the end of the love story between Timothy Leary and Rosemary Leary. You would think that betrayal would have done it, but it's not. And you should get the book and find out exactly what happened and how. Susannah, I love you so much. Love you. Thank you so much for coming on my first show.
- [69:09]
Susannah Cahalan
I am so proud of you and so excited for you.
- [69:13]
Maureen Callahan
I'm so excited for you and your new book, and I can't. Again, the Acid Queen. Go get it. Thanks. Susanna. And thanks to all of you guys for listening. We will be back on Friday with episode two. We are just getting started. We will see you next time on the Nerve, where you. You will never guess what we're about to say next.