The Network State Podcast
Episode #11 — Applied History with WhatIfAltHist
Date: March 19, 2025
Host: Balaji Srinivasan (A, often called "Balaji" here)
Guest: Rudyard Lynch (B), creator of Whatifalthist
Overview
In this episode, Balaji Srinivasan is joined by Rudyard Lynch of the Whatifalthist YouTube channel for a deep, speculative, and wide-ranging discussion on the sweeping tides of history, human nature, ideology, technology, the coming end of the “American Empire,” and the possible birth of new forms of statehood and religion in the networked world. Drawing from historical cycles, alchemy, genetics, technologies like crypto and AI, and trends in geopolitics, the conversation explores what kind of macro-forces shape our present and future, and how the “network state” concept fits into that arc.
The tone alternates between philosophical, technical, and visionary, with both speakers referencing examples from both ancient history and emergent tech, popularizing abstract theories with memorable phrases and analogies.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Alternate History, Macro Forces & Human Nature
- Whatifalthist's Background: Rudyard Lynch explains his channel’s origins in alternate history, which evolved into deeply researched explorations of history, anthropology, and philosophy, seeking the "underlying causal thing beneath it is human nature" (B, 00:10).
- "You Can Just Do Things": Balaji introduces a popular tech refrain about agency, questioning its limits: “How much agency does one person actually have? How much can they actually shape the world versus how much is it historical forces...?" (A, 02:06).
2. Great Man Theory vs. Forces of History
- Alchemical Metaphor for History: Lynch uses an alchemical metaphor: “everyone is a radio tower…emitting these sort of vibrations,” and history as “the emergent phenomena of billions of people operating at once making their own decisions out of free will” (B, 03:46).
- Dualities—Nature vs. Nurture: Both warn against one-dimensional thinking: “It's both, obviously both if you're a reasonable person” (B, 05:32). Balaji reframes the dichotomy as hardware (nature) vs. software (nurture/ideology).
3. Scaling Ideologies—Leftism as Organizational Software
- The Power of Leftist "Software": Balaji argues: “I actually think of the left as just optimized for war… software that scripts giant numbers of human beings” (A, 09:27) and compares it to Google's early use of cheap hardware with sophisticated software.
- The 20th Century State: Lynch credits the left for mastering the “standardization” needed for the 20th century state: “The left is the ultimate belief structure for standardized group cooperation” (B, 11:26).
4. God, State, Network—New Paradigms
- Balaji’s GSN Paradigm: “19th century: God; 20th century: state; 21st century: network” — each organizing society with a different principle: faith, law, now willpower/code (A, 13:13).
- The Will to Flourish: Lynch posits: “the unifying principle of the network is willpower… the will to stay together… willpower is the force that works against entropy” (B, 14:36).
- Code as the Organizing Principle: Balaji extends this: “God was about scripture… state was about law… the network is about code” (A, 15:50).
5. History as Interference/Propagation—The Radio Tower Analogy
- Waves of Influence: Balaji connects the “radio tower” analogy to influencers on the modern social network, ideas propagating like waves, “their evolutionary fitness as [ideas] go further” (A, 17:31).
- Ideology Becomes Biology: Genetics and social behavior intertwine: “my version of that is, ideology becomes biology” (A, 20:08).
6. Alchemy, Science, Crypto—U-Shaped Adoption
- Origins of Science: Lynch points out, “a third of Isaac Newton's books were on alchemy,” and early European science was deeply entangled with these mystical traditions (B, 22:46).
- Crypto as Modern Alchemy: Balaji compares crypto to alchemy—both have “very, very intelligent people and also crazy scammers… a U-shaped distribution” (A, 25:49).
- Networked Power Users: Both crypto and alchemy unite the “power user and the powerless” (A, 27:08), offering tools for both the elite and the disenfranchised.
7. Power, Networks, and Society
- Magic of Kings vs. Magic of Priests: Lynch—religion (priests) increases group cooperation; alchemy (kings) increases power: “purpose of alchemy was to increase power. … science is an amoral tool.” (B, 29:33)
- The Society of Tech Bros: Balaji: “alchemy was the original society of tech bros… It’s a third force…not the state, not God…but peer-to-peer network of smart guys” (A, 31:26).
8. AI & Language—The Age of the Phrase
- Phrases as Power: “We're entering the age of the phrase...AI, crypto, and social each are powered by a phrase” (A, 33:22).
- AI as Parrot: “AI can only be a mirror to our worldview… an incredibly advanced parrot” (B, 36:21).
- Ideological Hall of Mirrors: Danger of “hall of mirrors,” where AI and the West are in a “closed loop” with little grounding in reality (B, 37:21).
9. Genetics, Ideology, and Bioengineering
- Decline of Wokeness, Rise of Genetics: Balaji: “Genetics is mutable. We can actually do gene therapy... gene-editing is becoming more feasible” (A, 44:45).
- Stacking Adaptations: The possibility to “take the best of humanity and pool it together” via bioengineering for things like Mars settlement (A, 48:28).
- Alchemy’s Moral Demand: Lynch: “Not technologically progressing is morally evil, because the purpose of the universe is to grow and advance” (B, 50:11).
10. Techno-Capitalism and Egalitarianism
- Internet as Universal Basic Income: “The Internet is hyper-deflated and resulted in global equality. It is the universal basic income in the digital world” (A, 53:06).
- Capitalism at Scale vs. Elysium Model: Massive scale tech innovation is inherently egalitarian, not exclusionary (A, 53:06).
11. The End of the American Empire & Rise of the Network
- Historical Cycles: Lynch predicts American decline akin to past civilizational collapses: “I liken it to religious wars of the 1600s…every 250 years you have these cataclysmic periods” (B, 57:37).
- Network vs. State: “I don't think China can beat the network because China is in deceleration...You can't push against those emergent phenomena for very long” (B, 58:12).
12. Centralization vs. Decentralization: China & the Internet
- Geopolitical Heirs: Balaji: “The heirs [to US empire] are China and the Internet” — China is “billion person centralized state,” Internet will be “a million, a thousand million person network states” (A, 60:04).
- State-Integrated Networks: Chinese Internet as closed, full-stack system—“unified system in which the Internet, government, ruling class, economy…concentrated into a single authoritarian structure” (B, 61:22).
13. Historical Materialism vs. Idealism
- Cycles of Ideological Struggle: Each crisis cycles between two dominant ideologies—conservatism vs. leftism, materialism vs. idealism, etc. (B, 61:42)
- Social Technology & Money: The abstraction of money related to religiosity—more abstract currencies, more religious societies (B, 64:03).
14. Internet Tribes, Nationalism, and Post-American Identity
- Nationalism, Tribalism, Globalism Reframed: “Anyone who uses the Internet is a globalist…Their actual community is not their neighborhood, it's an Internet tribe” (A, 78:17).
- End of the ‘USian’: “The USIAN I don't think exists past 2035 or 2040…” — as the Soviets disappeared, so will the integrative identity of the US empire (A, 71:49).
- Warring States Period: Predicting a “Warring States period” of competing network states—like China’s ancient period of fracture and creativity (B, 73:43).
15. Bitcoin as New Base-Identity
- Bitcoin’s Meteoric Rise: “From a post on a message board…to 100,000…It's like faster than Islam, faster than any of the most successful ideologies ever" (A, 88:57).
- Bitcoin as a Post-American Uniter: New global base-identity for network tribes as “modern tech companies…are not ethnicity based, they're ideology and software based”, those founded 25 or 2.5 years ago are “more global in their composition” (A, 90:33).
16. China’s Military, US Decline, and Future Fractures
- Chinese Supremacy: US defense industry leaders admit “China has more capacity in one shipyard than all of America’s combined,” the realization that “the US has already taken the L on this” (A, 93:31).
- Return of Ideological Religions: Lynch predicts a return of “either religions or pseudo-religions” in decentralized power gaps: “radical Islam and communism” as prior examples (B, 94:45).
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
"Everyone is a radio tower...the universe is the collective output of all of these independent decisions being made over time..."
— Rudyard Lynch (B) [03:46] -
"You can just do things. There are no rules, there's no constraints, nothing holding you back. Go, go, go."
— Balaji (A) [02:44] -
"I actually think of the left as just optimized for war. Amidst the chaos...somehow managed to organize...software that scripts giant numbers of human beings."
— Balaji (A) [09:27] -
"The unifying principle of the network is willpower...willpower is the force that works against entropy."
— Rudyard Lynch (B) [14:36] -
"God was about scripture and the state was about law and the network is about code."
— Balaji (A) [15:49] -
"Alchemy was the original society of tech bros."
— Balaji (A) [31:26] -
"We're entering the age of the phrase...AI, crypto, and social each are powered by a phrase."
— Balaji (A) [33:22] -
"AI can only be a mirror to our worldview...an incredibly advanced parrot."
— Rudyard Lynch (B) [36:21] -
"My version of that is, ideology becomes biology."
— Balaji (A) [20:08] -
"Not technologically progressing is morally evil, because the purpose of the universe is to grow and to advance."
— Rudyard Lynch (B) [50:11] -
"The Internet is hyper-deflated and resulted in global equality. It is the universal basic income in the digital world."
— Balaji (A) [53:06] -
"I liken it to the religious wars of the 1600s or the Black Death or the French Revolution where you have these periods of global crisis that occur roughly every 250 years..."
— Rudyard Lynch (B) [57:37]
Timestamps for Important Segments
00:00 – 04:25 | Whatifalthist origins, alternate history, human nature
04:25 – 08:07 | Alchemy, great man theory, dual lenses of history
08:07 – 11:26 | Left-right as organizing software, military analogies
13:13 – 15:49 | God-state-network theory, willpower vs. code
17:31 – 22:21 | Meme propagation, ideology becomes biology
22:43 – 31:26 | Alchemy to science to crypto, “U shape” adoption
33:22 – 36:43 | The Age of the Phrase, prompting AI, AI as a mirror
44:45 – 48:28 | Genetics’ reemergence, bioengineering humanity
50:11 – 53:06 | Moral imperative to progress, flourishing through tech
53:06 – 60:04 | Techno-capitalism, flattening of digital experience, globalization
60:04 – 66:40 | End of American empire, centralization vs. decentralization
71:49 – 75:31 | The “USian” concept, timeline to societal breakdown
73:43 – 75:31 | Warring States analogies, creativity from chaos
86:57 – 90:33 | Post-American identities, Bitcoin’s explosive adoption
93:15 – 94:45 | China’s strategic advantage, the return of new religions
Final Thoughts & Closing
Both host and guest converge on a vision where centralized, decaying institutions are replaced by emergent, global, and often virtual tribes—network states organized less by geography than by ideology and code. They predict an era of instability akin to the ancient Warring States—a time of suffering but also intense creativity and foundational innovation. The next great religions or ideologies, they propose, could arise from networked societies, not territorial ones.
"In a world where the state is weak, you'll see the return of either religions or pseudo-religions....decentralized power means people cooperate through ideas rather than through the state." -- Rudyard Lynch (B) [94:45]
"The network is going to be the dominant force...it’s the water in which we swim." -- Balaji (A) [31:26]
The episode ends with plans for future discussions on where new religions might emerge and how civilizations rebuild after crisis.
For Further Study:
- Rudyard Lynch’s YouTube channel
- The Network State book
- Peter Turchin, Ray Dalio, David Reich, David Graeber (books/authors referenced)
- Fitzpatrick’s War (novel discussed)
Summary by The Network State Podcast AI