The Network State Podcast #17 — Claire Lehmann (July 16, 2025)

Episode Overview

In this episode, Balaji Srinivasan speaks with Claire Lehmann, founder and editor of Quillette, about ideological extremes, the decline of American influence, Australia's unique position, shifting geopolitical and cultural landscapes, the future of tech, and the rise of new digital societies. The conversation traverses the cultural, political, and economic history of the past century, examines the West's current polarization, explores Australia's societal model, and discusses possible futures for the Anglosphere and the world—including a world after American hegemony.

Founding of Quillette & Critique of Orthodoxy

• Lehmann recounts the origins of Quillette as a response to increasingly hyperbolic and unsubstantiated left-wing narratives, especially around gender in academia and the media.
  • “I was politicized by the early woke narratives that I saw in media”—Claire [00:44]
• The publication has maintained “enlightened centrism,” critiquing illiberalism from both the left and right as polarization has increased.
  • “We are reacting and responding to waves of illiberalism, whether they come from the left or the right.” —Claire [02:59]

The Left, the Right, and Reciprocal Radicalization

• Balaji observes that political radicalism is a feedback loop, with the unreasonable right arising as a reaction to the unreasonable left.
  • “It was like a natural selection process of antibiotic resistance to select for an unreasonable right… Now, of course, that right is unreasonable.” —Balaji [03:44]
• Historical analogies are drawn to the interplay between communism and fascism in 20th-century Europe.
  • “The extreme left has always demonized their enemies as fascists and then they create support for a genuine fascist movement.” —Claire [04:34]

America as the “Wet Lab” of Ideologies & Global Consequences

• Balaji and Claire discuss how both far-right and far-left ideologies often have American roots before being exported globally.
  • “The ideologies that the rest of the world fought against were sort of cooked up in the wet lab that was America.” —Balaji [07:11]
• The notion that “history is running in reverse” is examined—after the rest of the world endured ideological tumult, now the West is experiencing it.
  • “Now it's the west itself that is being thrashed by this stuff.” —Balaji [07:54]

The Role of the French Revolution

• Claire argues that American exceptionalism should not be overstated; she highlights the influence of the French Revolution on later developments, including communism.
  • “We can't forget the influence of the French Revolution as well, which obviously led straight in a straight line to communism.” —Claire [08:40]

Australia: The “Lucky Country” and a Case Study in National Balance

Fiscal Responsibility and Economic Structure

• Balaji marvels at Australia’s ability to almost eliminate its national debt and attract global migrants, crediting effective left and right governance.
  • “The conservatives actually cut deficits and the liberals actually oppose wars. Lol. What a concept.” —Balaji [11:53]
• Australia’s resource economy offers highly paid working-class jobs (in mining), bluntly described by Claire:
  • “We're the custodians of the dirt…There isn't this sense of massive inequality between people who are educated and who are knowledge workers and the working class.” —Claire [13:51]

Social Cohesion and Competition

• The conversation highlights the robust social fabric and competitive migrant influence, particularly in education.
  • “In Sydney… it’s a tiger parent culture, like heavy investment in children’s education and it flows on to the Anglo parents as well.” —Claire [18:17]
• Australia’s balanced approach—pragmatic, somewhat insulated, and less polarized—stands in contrast to the US and UK.

Cultural and Economic Ties to Asia

• Australia and New Zealand’s geographical location and economic pragmatism (especially with China) are highlighted as stabilizing forces.
  • “They just dig stuff out of the ground and sell to China. So they have a real economy.” —Balaji [13:22]

American Decline, Grief, and Cultural Exhaustion

The American “Grief Cycle”

• Lehmann references historian Andrew Roberts’ framing of American decline through the “stages of grief”—with the US recently moving from denial into bargaining/negotiation.
  • “He likens it to phases of grief… Americans are currently in the denial phase of its declining empire.” —Claire [28:54]
• Balaji relates the emotional resonance, comparing it to grieving for a beloved elder.
  • “It brought a manly tear to my eye. The metaphor of Uncle Sam as a beloved elder who's passing away.” —Balaji [32:12]

Cultural Confidence, Soft Power, & Hollywood’s Stagnation

• Claire laments the loss of American cultural vitality, as shown in the creative stagnation of Hollywood and the dilution of America’s global soft power.
  • “The exhaustion of Hollywood… They can't come up with anything original… the feeling of alliance or sympathy with American culture is sort of eroded…” —Claire [33:06]
• Balaji argues that cultural innovation has shifted online, leaving “physical America” behind as a museum.
  • “All of the innovation and culture has moved to the Internet… Physical America by itself is like baseball and hot dogs…” —Balaji [38:06]

Anchors of Identity, Privilege, and Unravelling of Norms

The Myth of the 1950s and American Privilege

• Both discuss the mistaken nostalgia for the 1950s as the norm. Balaji explains that postwar Western (especially US) prosperity was an extreme global outlier.
  • “This is a rebuttal… the US is anchored on a story of the past, which is an illusion.” —Balaji [47:29]
• Claire notes that the baby boom era was also a historical oddity enabled by public investment, with marriage and fertility patterns unlike either earlier or later decades.
  • “The baby boom generation was a massive outlier… That was a historical anomaly.” —Claire [41:09]

The Future: Toward China, the Internet, and Network Societies

The Death of American Empire and Emergence of Successors

• Balaji predicts the world is transitioning from an “American century” to an era where both China (as a vertically integrated power) and the Internet (as a global network) are the two main pillars.
  • “The Internet is to America what America was to Britain.” —Balaji [37:42]
  • “If… the successors to American empire are China and the Internet, then the more leveraged you are on either China or the Internet, or both, the better off you are.” —Balaji [77:46]
• The Internet is analogized to Christianity—initially a “place-less” idea that scripts the physical world.
  • “An important enough idea does actually script things in the physical world.” —Balaji [75:34]

Civilizational Intranets and Digital Borders

• China’s digital borders (“Great Firewall”) are reframed as control not just of speech, but of security in an age of robots and cyber threats.
  • “The great firewall, I think will be seen for all its faults as actually… digital borders.” —Balaji [81:23]
  • “If malware crosses your digital border and it can open up a drone or a robot, it can do terrorism.” —Balaji [82:02]
• Future global order may see “civilizational intranets” separating digital spheres as city walls once did.
  • “It’s walls. And that’s like a very old school definition of civilization.” —Claire [82:11]

Quillette’s Model, the Rise of Audio/Video, and Global Community

• Quillette’s revenue now relies on subscriptions, but much content is open or temporarily paywalled. YouTube and audio content are fastest-growing channels.
  • “There’s just a bigger market for audio and… video. People don’t like to read.” —Claire [49:36]
• Lehmann sees reading as becoming a more elite marker, returning to its pre-mass-literacy status.

Community Building and the Global Anglosphere

• Quillette’s audience is majority US-based but globally Anglophone. The Australian share is just 4%.
  • “50% of our audience is in the United States. About 12% is in Canada, 14% in the UK… only 4% Australian.” —Claire [54:50]
• Australia’s relatively depolarized, apathetic politics is seen as both strength and weakness.

The Collapse of Traditional Power, Virtue and Anarchy, and Looming Anti-Tech Sentiment

• Balaji worries the US is poised for inflationary collapse, but even more so, posits that “tech” as a class (not just a sector) will become a target for red and blue populists, referencing Amy Chua’s “market dominant minority.”
  • “Tech is a class. Race and class co-vary… And so the first backlash is the one we already saw… The second is the Elon Trump Tech alliance… we’re about to see… red and blue against tech.” —Balaji [94:25]
• Lehmann notes troubling early signs of anti-tech violence (e.g., Tesla firebombings, Luigi memes).
• Balaji suggests tech should prepare for scapegoating and possibly violent backlash as economic distress rises.
  • “AI takes all the jobs, crypto takes all the money, and tech takes all the blame.” —Balaji [96:43]

The Network State and New Forms of Education

Network School: An Emerging Model

• Balaji describes his “Network School” in Malaysia (near Singapore): a low-cost, pro-tech, physical community for remote workers, founders, and creators. Scholarships are offered for AI-first artists and “screenwriters for global cultures.”
  • “For like 18,000 per person per year, you can live in Network School and you get everything.” —Balaji [88:19]
• He sees being outside of Silicon Valley/SF as an intellectual and entrepreneurial advantage.
  • “The alpha is being outside SF, outside Silicon Valley. It’s so expensive there and it’s so consensus there.” —Balaji [90:02]

Predictions & Advice for the Coming Era

• Those most physically, culturally, or economically dependent on the US or on anti-tech, anti-China stances will struggle most as global dynamics shift.
  • “The more you’re into China, the more your economy and your people… have some connection to China or the Internet, the better off you are.” —Balaji [84:00]
• The “rest of the world might not do badly,” at least initially, as China exports goods and prices drop, but Westerners and especially Americans will face the greatest instability and loss.
  • “If you have, I think, Bitcoin,…if you’re not located in the US, I think you’ll probably be okay.” —Balaji [98:50]

Notable Quotes

• “We’re the custodians of the dirt.” —Claire [13:51]
• “Now it’s the West itself that is being thrashed by this stuff.” —Balaji [07:54]
• “The Internet is to America what America was to Britain.” —Balaji [37:42]
• “AI takes all the jobs, crypto takes all the money, and tech takes all the blame.” —Balaji [96:43]
• “I think reading is becoming a marker of elite status… I mean, I guess it always was.” —Claire [49:50]
• “All of the innovation and culture has moved to the Internet… Physical America by itself is like baseball and hot dogs… whenever anybody defends and says, oh, the US is still doing great, they’re always pointing to the tech companies.” —Balaji [38:06]

Memorable Moments & Timestamps

• [00:44] — Claire describes her politicization and founding of Quillette
• [03:44] — Balaji and Claire on reciprocal radicalization left/right
• [10:19] — The “lucky country”: Australia's resilience and economy
• [18:17] — How “tiger parent culture” in Sydney affects education
• [28:54] — America’s grief cycle and the psychology of decline
• [33:06] — Hollywood’s creative exhaustion as a symptom of cultural decay
• [41:09] — The abnormality of the 1950s; debunking nostalgia
• [77:46] — The rise of China & the Internet as new global orders
• [94:25] — Amy Chua’s “market dominant minority” and anti-tech sentiment
• [98:50] — Practical advice for living through de-dollarization and American decline

Tone and Style

• Direct, analytical, intellectually rigorous yet conversational.
• Balaji uses analogy, historical context, and technical metaphors (physics, economic history, force diagrams).
• Claire brings a comparative, empirical perspective, highlighting historical outliers and global nuance with a calm, reflective demeanor.

Takeaways for Listeners

• Australia is portrayed as a pragmatic, reasonably run outlier in an increasingly polarized and unstable Anglosphere.
• The world is facing the decline of American—and perhaps “Anglo-liberal”—dominance, with China and the global digital society rising in its place.
• Cultural, economic, and digital adaptability will determine who thrives in the coming decades.
• “Network societies” and new forms of community and education will be vital as the traditional structures erode.
• The next wave of populist resentment may target tech as a class—potentially in violent ways.
• Both speakers suggest looking beyond national loyalties—toward global skills, connections, and digital assets—to weather the coming turbulence.