The Network State Podcast – Episode #18: Jesse Pollak

Date: July 16, 2025
Host: Balaji Srinivasan (ns.com)
Guest: Jesse Pollak (Creator of Base, formerly at Coinbase)

Episode Theme & Purpose

This episode explores what might come after titans like Google, Facebook, Bitcoin, and Ethereum: the concept of the “network state” and decentralized, Internet-powered societies. Balaji and Jesse dive deep into how technological, legal, and societal infrastructure is evolving, focusing especially on the creation and philosophy of Base (an Ethereum L2 chain), the convergence of decentralized technologies, and what it all means for building new digital-first communities and startups—potentially even entire countries. Throughout, there’s a strong throughline about building “for builders,” progressive decentralization, and community-first innovation.

Key Discussions & Insights

1. Philosophy: Lessons Between Libertarianism and Progressivism

• Balaji reflects on how his journey took him from libertarian to progressive community-building, hinting at the ideological blending required to build new societies.
  • “I went so far libertarian that it became like a progressive and I'm like, you know, I need to do community building, I need to do community organizing.” (00:03)

2. Genesis and Vision of Base

• Jesse discusses the origin of Base at Coinbase, evolving from internal infrastructure into an open, global platform.
  • “Coinbase was a crypto company, but it wasn't yet an on chain company … The initial thesis behind the conception of Base was how do we make Coinbase a truly on chain company?” (04:04)
• The chain had to win builders based on product merit, not coin incentives.
  • “We didn't have that luxury. Instead we had to go and say, hey, we're going to go fight for every single customer... because it's faster, because it's cheaper, because it's easier to build on.” (02:32)

3. What Makes Base Unique

• Coinless Chain: Unlike most chains, Base doesn’t have its own token.
  • “It's a coinless chain in the sense of there isn't a native asset on the chain, but it is still useful.” (01:55)
• Open State Database Metaphor: Balaji likens Base to “the next version of Coinbase’s APIs, but open and on-chain.”
  • “You're not just querying Coinbase's server for data. You've got this open state database where you can write and read to it... maintained by Coinbase but more open than a traditional API.” (06:21)
• Smart Contracts as Verbs: The smart contract ecosystem on Base enables rapid expansion of possible use-cases.
  • “Every smart contract that a developer deploys is, is a new verb that some other developer can call.” – Jesse (06:48)

4. Technical Deep Dive: L2s & Rollups

• Architecture:

  • Base is built as an Ethereum Layer 2, leveraging optimistic rollups for scalability, security, and cost-efficiency.
    • “We basically take transactions, we batch them, we publish them to Ethereum, and that lets us get the best of both worlds.” (09:35)
  • Focus on progressive decentralization.
    • “From the beginning of Base… we've been very, very committed to decentralizing base…” (09:35)

• Rollup Mechanics:

  • Optimistic Rollups:
    • Transactions are “posted optimistically” with game-theory incentives for challenging fraud.
    • Escape hatches (“forced transactions”) guarantee censorship-resistance.
    • “You assume that the batches are faithfully posted to Ethereum... there's a mechanism called a fault proof... if the sequencer did something malicious, it can be challenged.” – Jesse (12:07)
  • OP Stack Modularity:
    • Multiple proving mechanisms (optimistic, ZK, trusted execution environments) can stack together for more security.
    • “Rather than having one mechanism that's securing base, we'll actually have more knowledge… optimistic, you have zero knowledge, they all sit on top of each other.” (15:00)

• Decentralization Stages:

  • Progressing from Stage 0 (training wheels), to Stage 1 (partial), to Stage 2 (full); upcoming initiatives with Flashblocks for builder decentralization.
    • “We're about to become a stage one roll up after a lot of hard work from the team...” (15:35)

5. Base’s Current Ecosystem & Use Cases

• Social Networks:
  • Farcaster (on-chain social) and Zora (on-chain creative economy) are thriving on Base.
    • “In terms of social products though, this is really what's shining on Base right now… I don't think there's anyone who has more social activity…” (17:15)
• Payments & Dining:
  • Blackbird onboarding restaurants; fast, cheap on-chain transactions are enabling new verticals.
• Economies-as-Platforms:
  • Base is positioning itself as infrastructure for “global on chain economies” analogous to “Tier 2” ISPs in internet architecture.
    • “I think that what we'll see as more and more of the world's kind of compute comes on chain is the same rough architecture…” (20:26)
• Stablecoins:
  • Pushing for proliferation of local-currency stablecoins.
    • “It's like our mission is to build a global on chain economy that increases innovation, creativity and freedom.” (22:38)

6. Real-World and Equity Assets On Chain

• Discussion on the importance and inevitable trajectory of moving real-world assets (stocks, real estate) onto chains.
  • “When everything comes on chain… all of those assets are going to become a lot more powerful... you just have one market and it's going to run on a new technology platform.” – Jesse (25:21)
• Legal and regulatory innovations will be pivotal, with the potential for COIN (Coinbase stock) to come fully on-chain as a pathfinder.
  • “Whether it's done as a Wyoming DAO, as a Tennessee DAO... building that legal pathway is a 10 of 10 importance, not just for Coinbase but for the whole space…” – Balaji (27:18)
  • “Bringing COIN onto base or COIN on chain will put our governance platform on chain and will require us to solve a bunch of the hard problems around bringing governance on chain…” – Jesse (28:42)

7. Network School Collaboration: “The Cloud Takes Land”

• Base and Network School are launching BASE batches: builder programs, mentorship, demo days, and community with real-world, offline gatherings.
  • “We just started this thing called base batches and we're running batch number one, which is kind of everything you need to get started. Building on chain. It's a build a thon in education, it's mentorship.” – Jesse (32:41)
• Network School:
  • “So first and foremost it's for the dark talent. So many people around the world... now have an Android phone and they're online but they don't have resources... The Network School fellowship. Anyone? Anywhere 100k...” – Balaji (36:07)
    • Focus on international talent, borderless education, “Internet first,” both offline and online learning, and community-building.

8. Vision: From Crypto Anarchy to Crypto Civilization

• Rebundling Society:
  • Crypto as the foundation for building “new societies”—bridging from decentralization back to recentralization, but on new terms, digitally native.
    • “I actually don't believe in crypto anarchy. What I believe in is crypto civilization... where we come back together again in a new form.” – Balaji (43:26)
• Internet-First Identity:
  • “Most people aren't actually country first, they're Internet first… crypto represents property… blockchains give you monetary policy, they give you property rights to give you contracts.” (43:26)
• Network States as Next Society:
  • The cloud is materializing on the ground via network schools, batches, builder communities.

9. Advice for Builders

• Skillset:
  • “You should learn statistics and computer science because from those two primitives you can rebuild almost everything else... that's the equivalent of like learning physics and math.” – Balaji (48:24)
• Jurisdiction:
  • Consider being outside the US for digital/crypto opportunities.
• Foundership Reality:
  • “It's actually by some measures harder to become a unicorn founder than to become a pro athlete.” (49:43)
• Not Everyone a Founder:
  • But anyone can be a builder; join programs, participate, learn—don’t go it alone if unsuited.
  • “Not everyone needs to be a founder, but I think everyone can be a builder. That mentality... it's about showing up, it's about working hard, it's about not giving up, being resourceful, using all the tools you have...” – Jesse (52:44)

Notable Quotes & Moments

• Balaji on the public open state database:
  “Coinbase or any company... can't put its postgres database in public... but it can put a chain in public. And everybody has read and write access... the consensus algorithm ensures it's not corrupted...” (08:15)
• Jesse on progressive decentralization:
  “We're about to become a stage one roll up after a lot of hard work from the team…” (15:35)
• Balaji on the new frontier:
  “Basically, for example, we ran this thing recently, I'm not sure I tell you about this a Learn a thon... It's like a personal trainer, but for your brain. I call it a personal brainer.” (39:40)
• Jesse on crypto as opportunity:
  “If you have an Internet connection, you can be a builder and you can make positive change on the Internet and thereby make positive change on the world.” (52:44)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:03 – Libertarians and progressives, community-building philosophies
• 01:02 – Naming and branding Base, “coinless chain” discussion
• 04:04 – Genesis of Base at Coinbase, transformative infrastructure
• 06:21 – The open state database, more crypto “verbs,” expanding what people can do on-chain
• 09:35 – Technical deep dive: L2 architecture, modular security, decentralization roadmap
• 17:15 – Key apps & use cases: Farcaster, Zora, Blackbird
• 20:26 – Base as platform/economy, ISP analogy, stablecoins
• 25:21 – Real-world assets on chain, regulatory/legal innovation, COIN on-chain discussion
• 32:41 – Base batches, partnership with Network School, learn-a-thons
• 43:26 – From crypto anarchy to civilization, network states, internet-first societies
• 48:24 – Advice for young builders: learning, jurisdiction, not everyone a founder
• 52:44 – Builder mindset, inclusiveness, closing thoughts

Tone & Language

The discussion is animated, visionary, and rooted in technical insight but accessible to an ambitious, globally-minded audience. Both Balaji and Jesse blend philosophical musings with specific builder advice, keeping the dialogue energetic, encouraging, and highly forward-looking.

Summary Takeaways

• Base is not just a scaling solution; it represents a principled, community-driven platform for a new economic and social order on-chain.
• The shift from closed to open, from centralized to decentralized (and selectively "recentralized") is not just technical but civilizational.
• Collaboration between Base, Network School, and other builders is about empowering a new generation to build – economically, socially, and legally – on the Internet itself.
• Anyone can be a builder, not everyone needs to be a founder—and now there are communities, platforms, and fellowships (like BASE Batches and Network School) to help you start.

For listeners and would-be builders: Check out BASE batches, Network School Fellowships, and start thinking (and acting) like an Internet-first builder.