A (3:17)

The first thing was security environment. So that's why I think of him as Bukel, Lee Kuan Yew. Right. Where the first thing was physical security and then on top of that, international capitalism. Go ahead.

B (3:26)

Yeah, sure. You know, I'm actually reading Lee Kuan Yew. I know you, you're in Singapore. So you are a big fan of what Lee Kuan Yew has done for Singapore. And many people compare El Salvador to Singapore, naturally, because we're two small countries in tropical climate, no resources. Now I'm reading from third world to first and one of the things that strikes, you know, has struck me about it was that he was very much inspired by Israel. Right. So that how Israel was a startup nation that had with no resources and how they leapfrogged to the top was through education, innovation and discipline. So these are the things that we also have in El Salvador. It's the discipline part of it from the bitcoin office is staying very focused on bitcoin country. This is what we are. This is our brand. We've got the world's attention with this. The best and brightest are looking at us now. We need to deliver not only the regulatory framework. And remember at that time in 2021, 2022, we had the Biden administration, we had Gary Gensler and, and there was, there was. Everybody was seeking some regulatory clarity. So I said, well, let's give them regulatory clarity and just do. Exactly. Because you know, how it is in, you know, in America's backyard, as they like to think of Latin America is there was already a lot of blowback in the US from the Democrats about El Salvador adopting bitcoin. And so I said, let's just do exactly what they're saying, right? Let's, let's build the regulatory Framework. What the builders want and what Gary Gensler is saying is bitcoin is, is a commodity. Everything else is a security. So we built a regulatory framework around that to invite people to have. We have the regulatory clarity. Right. Like come, come build here in El Salvador.

A (5:27)

But I really, I really appreciate that. Which is you built a platform that actually, you know, one might disagree or agree with whatever regulatory issues, but you actually built a concrete thing. It wasn't some vague regulation by enforcement. You said, here's what's permissible, here's the process. You can come in. And actually you managed to bring in tether which is, you know, like a top 20 global bank or what have you at this point, as well as obviously bitcoin beach and a bunch of other things.

B (5:57)

Exactly. So I mean this is the regulatory clarity, but on top of it, a definite brand, right? We're not just like everything. We're not, you know, we're not, you know, it's a very specific brand. So if you look at insead that you know the well known business. Yeah, the French business school, it's a very, you know, prestigious business school and they looked at El Salvador just last year and what they saw was that the, the blue ocean strategy, which is a very famous strategy right. In business and at a country level they're saying this is a country strategy where they clearly define themselves apart from all of the rest of the countries in the world, not just the region is they are bitcoin country. That's like. And so you're naturally already attracting not only wealthy people, but the best and the brightest and the smartest. Right? The smartest people in the world got bitcoin early. You're an early bitcoiner. Like all the like you obviously looked at El Salvador. Right. As soon as we adopted bitcoin as legal tender, you're like what is El Salvador? And you wanted to know more.

A (7:06)

Well, that's right. Now the thing is I, I do think it also shows, I mean, you know, it is. It's a little self regarding to say all the smartest people are. But I do think there's a lot of very talented computer scientists, investors and so on who were contrarian and correct on. On bitcoin and it showed that president Bukelly has the soul of a tech founder. Right? The soul. That's really the important thing. It's like a tech founder who is running the country, who has the right balance of different things, you know and, and you know, is, is. I mean he's only 40 something, right?

B (7:43)

43 yeah, 43.

A (7:45)

Right. So still has lots of Runway in front of him. And is also, if I'm not mistaken, one of the most democratically popular elected people in the entire world.

B (7:54)

Exactly. Something like 92% favorability rating. Nobody else has something like that.

A (8:00)

That's right. And so that means that there's consensus for what he's doing. It's legitimate and it's competent, which is the best combination.

B (8:07)

Yes. So he, you're right. Like, he is like a Steve Jobs. He is like an Elon Musk. He has that. He has a vision. And, you know, to be a great leader, you need quite a few things. It's not just, you know, otherwise we would have more of them right. In, in history. But there are only a handful. There are many heads of state, but there are only a few leaders that ever arise. And that is somebody who is so bold. Right. Imagine this. El Salvador was a failed state even before he became president. President Bukele was saying things like, where El Salvador is going is to the place we want to be. So he said that in 2019. And like the audacious sort of, you know, vision, bold vision of saying, like, El Salvador might be a failed state right now, but, you know, in a few years, like five years, we're going to be at the top. And you know what? He took us there. He took El Salvador there, like, there.

A (9:07)

It's actually crazy. I mean, the thing is, for the, the fact that people even know the name of the country outside the country was. Was. I mean, it's, it's interesting because countries now are volatile in a, in a sense that they, they weren't before. When we were, you know, in the 80s, the 90s, 2000s. They're pretty static. What countries were in good shape and what weren't and just vaulting from Murder Capital World to something that's attracting from Murder Capital to global capital, from Murder Capital to Bitcoin capital. How's that? Huh? Go ahead.

B (9:40)

Yeah, well, we're building capital markets on bitcoin. That was the intention. That's what I knew we could do. We already had the brand, so let's build the capital markets. Because you can't become a Singapore, you can't become a global economic powerhouse without capital. So we needed either gold, US Treasuries or bitcoin so we could get.

A (10:02)

And do you do gold? Do you also hold gold?

B (10:05)

Yes, yes, yes. President Bukeli just recently purchased $50 million worth of gold for I don't know how many ounces that is for the Central Bank. But we do have gold. We've had gold for a long time. The previous governments had sold some of it, but he's stockpiling it. So we have the layer one money. We're on a US dollar standard. So we already have US Dollars, we have gold and we have bitcoin.

A (10:26)

So amazing.

B (10:28)

However, we have a competitive advantage with bitcoin. Right. So this is the new capital markets that even Wall street is now piling. And remember when we first adopted bitcoin as legal tender, there was so much blowback from the global powers. Right. The big, you know, multinational. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The government of.

A (10:50)

And all these kind of guys.

B (10:51)

Yeah. And the Biden administration and all the Democrats. And it was, you know, pretty nasty. But now, like, BlackRock has one of the most. Well, it is the most successful Wall street financial product in history. Launched. But we were there first. President Bukele saw that first and he stuck with it. Like I was there. I started working for him. Right. As the whole gang war started as well. So the gang war started, but remember what also happened was Terra Luna, ftx, Celsius, all of that happened. And bitcoin went from like 68,000, 69,000 down to 16,000.

A (11:32)

Yeah. So 16,000, that's right. Yep.

B (11:34)

So you have the world media looking at you. The world's financial media, especially Bloomberg, wanted us to fail. They wanted, they didn't want this. Like, who is this tiny little country and why is this guy so confident? Why, like, this is like, you can't. You can't be us. Like, you can't be successful. Like, you know how that works, right? People don't want to see somebody transform on their own without your help, without your ngo, without your humanitarian organization, without your pennies that you throw to them. You did.

A (12:05)

And they're not really even. They're not. And that's the biggest thing is they did not want El Salvador to stand on its own two feet. They wanted to be a pawn. They wanted to, I mean, these, quote, humanitarian organizations. You know, charity is dependency, investment is independence. Right. India also learned that, you know, but go ahead. So go. I'm listening.

B (12:25)

That's exactly right. And so where was I when. When that happened? So we, we got the world's attention and we. Oh. So I started working there when all that Terra Luna, all that stuff happened and bitcoin went down and, you know, he just remained. He had. President Bukele had the vision, and he knew it was transforming El Salvador. He knew it had rebranded and he knew we were building. He stuck with it. Yeah, he stuck with it. And I was, you know, I had been around, you know, I was the first person to mention bitcoin on Global Television in 2010 at 23 cents. So I had been through many, like, crashes and stuff like that. So I, you know, for me individually, it didn't matter, but I could see like there was a pile on from Bloomberg and they were, oh, my God, this is going to be a failed state.

A (13:14)

When did you join the bitcoin office?

B (13:17)

So we created the bitcoin office by executive decree in November of 2023. Maybe 2022. Yeah, 2022. But I had started working, you know, from like January, February of that year.

A (13:32)

So they did it right in the month that FTX blew up. Something like that.

B (13:36)

Yeah. Well, f. Yeah, when did ft. Yeah, because first it was Terra Luna blew up in like April, which is the beginning of the gang war. And so that at first, you know, during the gang, the very first days of the gang war, Max and I, my husband Max Kaiser and I were there in El Salvador and the gang war started and the US Immediately, what.

A (14:02)

Was the gang war for? People who don't know what that was.

B (14:05)

So the gang war is. So we were there. Okay. So on was something like 24 or 25 of March 2022. Max and I flew with Ricardo Salinas, the third richest man in Mexico. And he is a bitcoiner, early bitcoiner. And we flew with him from Mexico City to El Salvador. We had dinner with President Bukele on like the 24th or 25th. It was a Thursday, March of 2022. And then literally the next day. And so we were bringing him there as you know, a Latin American billionaire, a tycoon, business tycoon. And we're like, okay, come invest in El Salvador. And then the next day, over the course of the next 48 hours, there were 87 murders. Just random assassinations by the gangs.

A (14:57)

They were trying to take back control of El Salvador after President Bukele had reduced crime.

B (15:02)

Yes. And so it was the bloodiest weekend in the murder capital of the world. Like, it was historic bloody weekend. So the president started the gang war. So basically since then, really, the war.

A (15:16)

The war on gangs.

B (15:17)

The war on gangs. Yeah, he, he, he, he went after them, locked up 80,000 over the course of the next 18 months of all the gangs. And it was quite easy to find them because they tend to put a tattoo on their force. Yeah, I mean, it's like here I'm, I, you know, I'm marketing El Salvador Here they were marketing MS.13 or, you know, you know, g. Terrorism. They were, you know, they were designated terrorists. And so they, you know, they started. He started arresting all of these gang members immediately. Hundreds and hundreds at a time. And one of the things. So Max and I were there and the US Government were. Was immediately, of course, all those human rights organizations were like, this is against the human rights of these gangs who had terrorized the. The people of El Salvador. Now where we were staying was in San Benito, which is like Beverly Hills of. Of San Salvador. Right? So we, you know, it's not like we had seen that, but I knew that, you know, there were like Soyopango, Ilapango, Apopa, these areas in San Salvador outside of the center, which were basically occupied by the gangs. You couldn't drive in. You had to like go through their, you know, checkpoints. So he was liberating them. We knew because we were there on the ground. But the media was saying that, you know, the human rights of these gangsters and some of the bitcoiners at that time, they were, you know, not in the country, but they were, oh, look, the US Is saying that this is bad news there and the human rights of these gang members. But Max and I were there and what we did is we went into those after about four or five weeks. So there were maybe 20 or 30,000, 20,000 guys locked up by then. But we went into the gang occupied areas because I would see the president tweeting all the time, like, we arrested these guys in Apopa, these guys in Ilopango, you know, these guys in Soyopango. And so that's the. That's the first I ever knew about these areas, the specific names of the areas that had been occupied by these gangs. And so Bitfinex at that time had raised $2 million worth of Bitcoin to give away to the victims of gangs. And so we took that money on this exact phone. I have Jamie Dimon on the back fud. So I took this and I went into those areas to distribute bitcoin to the people, a lot of the small businesses, individuals. I was given $500 up to 2,000, $3,000 to certain, like the. The marching band in Soyupongo. I gave them $3,000 worth of Bitcoin. I went into a town hall in Soyupongo where eight couples were getting married. They had a group wedding to save money. And I gave them each $2,000 worth of Bitcoin. You know, it was very emotional because one of the couples, like fell on the ground crying. Because, you know, it was so. It like, was a lifesaver for them and a start to a new life that they didn't expect to have. Like, we had just walked in and gave them this money and it was like mana from heaven. Like, it was just like, wow, what is this? But we saw, like, contrary to the press, for our own eyes at this point, because we went into these areas and we saw that these were liberated people. Right? We could see for. We were talking to them for hours. It's not like we went in for half an hour. We were there for hours without any security, without. It was just me and Max and my phone. And so we were giving away this money. Hundreds of people were surrounding us, like, looking, you know, for some these bitcoin donations we were giving. So. But we talked to all of these people and we could see very early on that this was a genuine liberation. There was no doubt in my mind at all after meeting these people. So. So we could see that the war on gangs was working, that it was liberating the people because they were a force for plunder. Right? They were plundering not only money. When. When you saw photos of. If you look back to the 2022, you'll see all these guys being arrested, the gang members, the terrorists being arrested, that they were. They had nickels and dimes and pennies, stacks of them. They were stealing nickels from people. Like this is how. Yeah, they were stealing the last nickel a guy had in his pocket. The. That this was the sort of extent of the humiliation that had to be endured in these communities. And President Bukele liberated the people from these gangs. And what it did is that began such a radical transformation of the mindset of the Salvadoran population. Because until that point, the only hope you had in life for success, if you weren't born into it, was to flee your country to abandon Question which.

A (20:25)

Is, hadn't President Bukele like, somewhat brought the gangs under control by 2021? And then this was like a relapse. And then this was then the second dose of medicine, so to speak.

B (20:35)

This was an all out war on the gangs. This was a total.

A (20:41)

So there had been. So. Okay, go ahead.

B (20:43)

This was a total pivot of. He knew he had a huge vision, as you said, he was like a tech founder. He had a vision for how huge and how amazing El Salvador would be. Because remember what he said was, where El Salvador is going is to the place we want to be. And what these gang members, these terrorists were saying Is like, no, because we could mess it up for you. We could terrorize the community. We can kill and assassinate 87 random innocent people in the course of 48 hours. And he's like, no, my vision is for greatness. And so if you're standing in the way, we're going to remove you. And he removed them all. He. Like, he's. That was his focus for six months for sure. Like, completely on getting these gang members, the first, like, hardcore 40, 50,000 of them. And then. Then we could build, like, then we could start to really build something, and then the consequences.

A (21:44)

El Salvador's homstad rate has just dropped to one of the very lowest in the world now. Just went from, like, murder capital to.

B (21:50)

Bitcoin capital, murder capital to bitcoin capital. But, you know, having been there for this whole time, is the. The mindset, like, what you gave people is. Is so hard to even put a number on it. It's not just the number. The. The homicide rate. It's not just the GDP and is. You gave people, like, their humanity back. Like, they could love their country. They could have pride in their country. They could build a future. They could have hope for their children. They could be human. They could experience the beauty around them. El Salvador is such a beautiful country. It's shockingly beautiful. It has beautiful oceans, it has volcanoes. It has like, just these tropical paradise. And yet so many Salvadorans weren't even able to. Even though it's a country, they weren't even able to travel, like, an hour's drive away because of the danger from the gangs. So you gave them so much that could not even be quantified by anything because you just gave them all of the things that, you know, an American might take for granted, which is freedom and what freedom gives you, and freedom of association. Like, they didn't have freedom of association. Like, think of these. This is a foundational human right that we have in America now. Think of the human rights organizations that then were looking at El Salvador and, like, condemning the actions of the president when he was giving them back, like, these basic human rights, like freedom of association. Now they're free to go and hang out with whoever they want, wherever they want.

A (23:30)

This is great. I want to switch gears a little bit and say, what is El. What has El Salvador been doing with AI Particularly in the realm of education?

B (23:37)

I've been working on the bitcoin policy and regulatory framework and, you know, building the strategic bitcoin reserve. We had the world's first. We have a. Now a regulatory we pass a law that would allow for bitcoin banks. So we have that. So I was already looking at El Salvador and as building a regulatory framework that would appeal to the best and brightest in the world to attract them to come to El Salvador and build in El Salvador and bring that capital here. And as you know, there's been a lot of convergence over the past few years between bitcoin and AI and the AI, you know, from bitcoin miners, also doing AI, HPC data centers and the investment community and the same builders and engineers. So on my, you know, X feed, I was starting to see, I, I saw opportunity. So what I saw was that the US was unable to act at a national level on this exponential technology. Exponential innovation is happening and we were stuck in these states. Some states very hostile to innovation, some more favorable perhaps. But on a national level, the US was unable to act. And you saw that President Trump tried to put into his big beautiful bill that he would ban states for a few years from regulating AI and it would be done at the national level that was pulled out of the big beautiful bill. So what was happening is all these countries, we're the first country in the world to have a complete regulatory framework, a policy framework around AI. And the reason is most countries are waiting for either the US or eu, one of the big blocs to go first. And the EU therefore is going to be the benchmark if somebody else weren't the benchmark first because the US is not going to be able to move. So I said, well, let's, you know, the EU is like fining, regulating, preventing, banning. Like it's very hostile to innovation. We, there's an opportunity here for us to attract more of the best and brightest. Right? Like we like they want to build these people want to build these AI geniuses and engineers is exponential innovation. Like let's provide a, a regulatory clarity and a framework for them that they'll come build in El Salvador. And that's what we.

A (26:23)

And so what is what, what specifically are the, like, what should we look for, like online? Is it, is there an AI bill? Is there. What's the name of the AI regulation? Maybe we could put that on screen.

B (26:32)

It's AI law. It's right now on my Twitter feed. I'll pin it. You can look at Stacy Herbert on X or Anya A nia, the AI agency of El Salvador. And it's the AI law, right? And we're also passed a robot law, but we have to write the regulations still on that. But what is done is you have.

A (26:51)

A bitcoin law, you have an AI law. You're coming up with a robot law.

B (26:55)

Yeah.

A (26:55)

Pretty cool.

B (26:56)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's cool because you, you could see what I have seen through. This is why there's always somewhere that is likeness. No matter how dark the age gets, there's always a place for lightness because of competitive advantage. Like if everybody else wants to be dark, if else if the EU wants to ban and restrict and prevent innovation, well, that gives us an opportunity, right? Because you can't stop innovation, you can't stop builders from building. So why not provide them with a safe harbor to build what they want to build? And that's what we've done. So we have this opportunity because everybody, because we could act fast. Because President Bukele can act fast. He has the 92% support from the population. He control, you know, he, the population, elected his party to the assembly, to the Congress. He has a vision that the population believes in and he can act fast. Where many other countries are just torn apart by fear of, of these innovators, fear of change, fear of losing their power. Whether it's like bitcoin separating money from state and AI is separating, you know, the infrastructure of governance from the state, right? Like these AI, the, the, the tools that AI is giving are so liberating to the people in such a profound way that there's a lot of fear there. But in El Salvador, we don't have the fear. We have hope. And we're building for a future that the best and brightest are going to come to El Salvador if we provide the framework for them to tell them, hey, we want you here. A lot of these countries, remarkably, are just saying, no, we don't want the best and brightest. It's pure insanity. But it's an opportunity for El Salvador. It's.

A (28:55)

Well, so that gets the next. That's the next thing that you guys are doing. You have the. I think it's. You can become an El Salvador citizen for, I think. Is it a million in bitcoin? Is that right?

B (29:05)

A million in bitcoin. It's like almost instant. It's very fast. We are rolling out some other programs, including the president had announced last year. But we're, you know, we're changing the regulatory framework for this, the legal framework to. He's going to grant 5,000 passports to the best and brightest in the world in great.

A (29:29)

So talent search.

B (29:30)

Talent search. But including like this is the first that's ever done like philosophy as well, like, so we're looking for philosophers. And you know it. When you compare countries like, you know, to try to understand a situation, especially somewhere like El Salvador that was so unknown before, people compare it to other times or other places. But it is the El Salvador model. It is President Bukele. He's a unique individual that, you know, there has been nobody quite like him. You can kind of compare him to some people, Lee Kuan Yew, Steve Jobs, like.

A (30:08)

But Simon Valleyvalar is also an interesting potential comparison. Right.

B (30:12)

Yeah. So he's a lot of these people, but he's President Bukele. Right. He's Najib Bukele and he. There's nobody quite like him. But with the philosopher thing like that, that gives a level of a sort of renaissance.

A (30:27)

Sure. That it is not simply the tech or the. Or the, you know, it is.

B (30:31)

There's also the philosophy.

A (30:32)

Exactly.

B (30:33)

Yeah. And that's something unique that say, like a Singapore doesn't have. Like, that's not something that they cultivated. Early on it was very focused on. Yeah.

A (30:43)

Lky. Lky's books, you could consider it to be philosophy, but you're right. That they were less focused on, let's call it liberal arts and so on and so forth and more focused on construction and building and so and so forth. It's kind of more of an East Asian thing or what have you, but go ahead. Yes.

B (30:59)

Yeah. So we are focused on something extraordinary. Right. And what. Think of the times of Florence. Like, how did a city state of like 40,000 people, 50,000 people have such a huge impact on not just that city, but humanity and history? Like, okay, Medici was a rich guy, but you can't. You have to inspire that. You can't just like, purchase it because there were other rich guys, there were other dukes of other city states. Why didn't they inspire all of the extraordinary. The. It's not just the art, it's not just Da Vinci and Michael Lamb.

A (31:44)

Absolutely. It's a synthesis. It is. It is the capital, it's the. It's the execution, it's the art, it's the philosophy.

B (31:49)

It was the age of discovery, it was the astronomy, it was the accounting. Like, you can do that right? Through inspiring. Like Medici himself didn't build any of it. He inspired others. He attracted others to his city to do the extraordinary things. And that's what we're doing in El Salvador.

A (32:08)

So what is El Salvador doing to attract global digital nomads and tech startups? Like, for example, Tether.

B (32:14)

What El Salvador is doing to attract global digital nomads is we are introducing 0% tax for many of the sort of industries that they would build in. We have a very responsive, fast acting government that can respond to their needs very quickly. We are introducing easy pathways to citizenship or permanent residency, whichever they prefer we have. Our brand is important to entrepreneurs because just through associations. So think of how Silicon Valley happened and how the Internet and tech companies came there. You had capital, you had the universities, but the brand value of Silicon Valley added to a startup also was a brand enhancer to the company to attract capital. So our, our brand as El Salvador is now a cool brand. If you wear this hat any. I was just in New York City walking around. Everybody, everybody was point like people, the hotel clerks, like taxi cab drivers, everybody's like el Salvador, like asking about El Salvador because it's a cool brand now. Right. So you could distinguish yourselves as being part of El Salvador. As you mentioned, tethers there. Why? Because El Salvador is a brand enhancer even to one of the most profitable companies in the world. Right. It's a brand enhancer. It's a place to be cool. It's a place to distinguish yourselves amongst a sea of competitors around the world. I think El Salvador is, Bitcoin country is such a powerful brand and we own it alone. If you go and search on Google and, and I know Google's kind of messed up now.

A (34:14)

Google, no, no, sure. If someone says, what's the first bitcoin country? It's El Salvador and it's still, I think, the only country where it's formerly the national currency.

B (34:22)

Yes.

A (34:23)

So go ahead.

B (34:25)

Yeah, no, if you, if you search bitcoin country, the flag of El Salvador comes up on a Google search. If you search crypto country, El Salvador is in there, but it's, you have to hit the button for it. See more. The first one's the United States, Canada. It's like it's hundreds of countries but only one bitcoin country. And so that's amazing.

A (34:48)

That's great. Absolutely. And it will, it will have a place in the history book. So now one way I think about El Salvador is, you know, President Bukele is a reaction in part to the twin ills that plagued Latin America over the 20th century, which were money printing and drugs. Right. And so by cracking down on drug dealers and jailing them, he restored order. And by cracking down on effectively money printing, by introducing hard money, he's restored monetary order and that is spreading in a positive way where he is influential beyond El Salvador's borders. Many people in Latin America look Up to him. I think Argentina and Malay is a friend of President Bukele. You know, they're going through their own kind of thing right now. But basically, I think in part the markets in Argentina were reacting to the idea that President Milei may not get his bills and so on through. He has less, you know, so I say the meltdown is not caused by Malay's policies. It was caused by the possibility that his policies may not be pursued. That's actually, you know, part of what's happening, but we'll see what happens on there. I'm rooting for President Milei, but more broadly, Latin America has been inspired by President Bukele. I think he's very popular across the region. Are there any other countries that are inspired by what President Bukele is doing that are, you know, mimicking it? How do you think about that?

B (36:08)

The Bukele model on security has swept Latin America and America actually, and. Yeah. And the US Parts of it. That's true. That's true. That confidence, that discipline that is so important. That discipline is lacking in so many countries. Right. And it's partly to do with the apparent success of money printing since the global financial crisis of 2008. There seems to have been no sort of negative consequences to it. But El Salvador has a disciplined model and a trailblazing pioneering brand and reputation. And I think that that sort of, that vision that El Salvador, that President Bukele has as a tech hub and to be able to act on it and deliver, like our regulatory framework, for example, with AI is super streamlined, is the, the law is simple and the regulatory, the regulations to accompany the law are just 13 pages. You don't have 500 page regulatory regimes of like all this burden that you must, you know, abide by. So I know for a fact that we are already our, our tech. Regulatory framework, our tech framework is inspiring other countries. I know that, you know, certain, you know, certain big countries in the region are who had been working on their own AI regulations based on what the EU is building. I know.

A (37:44)

Oh, that's terrible.

B (37:45)

Yeah, yeah. So I know for a fact, like Mexico, I'll say, like that they have, they're starting to look at El Salvador instead. The what El Salvador has achieved more pro innovation and less hostile to innovation and business.

A (38:06)

So we are adversarial, fixing, fixing the downsides without giving up the upsides.

B (38:11)

Exactly. We are providing a positive example. Like we are leaders because we have a leader in charge. Right.

A (38:21)

That's actually a good way of putting it. You are leaders in Latin America, because you have a great Latin American leader.

B (38:26)

Yes, yes. And it's not like there hasn't been a great Latin America leader in a long time. And he's very clear thinking and has a very clear vision. And it's, you know, until you see it, like, you don't realize, like, how important that is. Right. To have a confident leader with a clear vision is half the battle. That's like a lot of. It's remarkably. When you look at it around the world, like, what are the. Who are the leaders of Europe? Right. Where is a clear vision? What is their destination? What do they want? What. Can you describe it? No, you can't, because they don't have one. And that's, you know, that's a poor result of the political systems that are there in the eu. But El Salvador has fixed that. Like, we have now a leader with a clear vision. And he aims to be great, Right? Like, he aims for El Salvador to be great. What he said in 2019 was, where El Salvador is going is to the place we want to be. And so, you know, you need to know where you want to be and in order to get to where you want to be. So he knows where he wants El Salvador to be, and that is great. And we're already, like, there. Like, we're on the global map. Like you said it at the very beginning of our conversation, El Salvador is on the map. Right. We weren't on the map before. If you knew about it. The only coverage that ever happened in the US or hardly ever in the EU is if there were like a particularly gruesome weekend of, of murders or chaos. Right?

A (40:16)

Like, so, so actually so now. So on the, like, basically, this is now a place where, I think digital nomads, I, I assume you would say people who are into star societies, into network states, should come and visit El Salvador, build an El Salvador. Is that. Would you agree with that?

B (40:32)

There. It is so easy to come there. You. Even to get a residency permit is very super easy. You could just. We have a digital nomad visa, essentially. So when you arrive, you could stay for 180 days, right? That's the tourist visa.

A (40:47)

Okay.

B (40:48)

It's like you just show up and you stay for 180 days every single. The thing about El Salvador as well is that there is a huge sense of optimism, and you can't underestimate how that feels as a, as a builder. So if you're, if you're, if you want to build and everybody around you is depressed and things are getting worse, for them, it's not a great environment to build in. But in El Salvador, everybody is happy, the locals are happy. All the millions of Salvadorans that had to flee over the past few decades to the U.S. they're all returning, they're building, they're excited. There are the best and brightest around the world in El Salvador building. And President Bukele also points out all the time, one thing about El Salvador is in the tropics, right. It is, you know, tropical country, but it has all the way up to. You could live at a constant temperature, whatever you like, whether it's 90 degrees Fahrenheit every day or 50 degrees Fahrenheit every day. If you, if you want to live.

A (41:50)

Up, you want to live cold or live hot, that's great.

B (41:52)

Yeah, yeah. So you could, you could live in a cold part of El Salvador.

A (41:56)

For many people who want to visit El Salvador from Asia or from, you know, Europe and so on and so forth, many flights go through the US And a non obvious thing, maybe you're aware of this, the US actually requires a so called transit visa.

B (42:14)

Yeah.

A (42:16)

So that if you are even going through to the US for a stop at the airport, you need a visa, which is a huge deterrent for people to visit because it's a whole process just for like a, you know, a stop. Right.

B (42:30)

Yeah, yeah.

A (42:31)

So non stop flights to El Salvador from Singapore or maybe Heathrow or, or Dubai. Reason I mentioned Singapore and Dubai is those are two giant global capitals. If there's something to subsidize would be air conductivity because there's obviously a lot of bitcoiners in, you know, Dubai, a lot of bitcoiners in Singapore who would want to visit. And that is something I think you should consider to bring more capital and talent there. And probably Emirates or Singapore Airlines, you might talk to them about that. If there's one kind of deal that could be on your table and then I could send more people over there. And I'm sure Dubai could send more people over there.

B (43:14)

Right. So I'll give you some reasons to come visit in November. It's bitcoin month, so there's several bitcoin conferences. I'm putting on a conference at the national palace at Centro Historico November 12 and 13. It's going to be something quite extraordinary, unlike anything. And I went to the first bitcoin conference in 2011 in Prague and I've been to many of the bitcoin conferences across the years. This is going to be an experience. We have festival sort of environment during the day with learning experiences, cultural experiences, you know, technical discussions. If you, if you want to get into the dev talks on a separate stage where there right now in bitcoin, there's a lot of fighting going on. But on the main stage, which is the National palace from 4 until 8pm we have these very sophisticated cultural talks and conversations and philosophical conversations from people like Ricardo Salinas, Jeff Booth, we have Jack Mers, we have big names coming. It's going to be a very elegant affair November 12 and 13. And right after that there's another bitcoin conference, more like a tech devs and pleb vibe adopting bitcoin. And so that's a reason to come. Now you can Visit that@bitcoinhistorico.com to find out information about our conference that the bitcoin office is putting on. Okay.

A (44:38)

Okay, good. So we'll put that on at the very last, this very last thing we'll put on bitcoin historico. Okay. Anything else for network stators to know about El Salvador? Any other words?

B (44:49)

Well, in bitcoin we have that phrase don't trust, verify. And you really must come and verify for yourself that this transformation that has happened in El Salvador is more, is very deep, it's very profound and it's very real. And you have to come see it for yourself because you have to feel it to understand just what hope feels like, just what optimism feels like, just what strong men creating good times like. It's been a long time since we've had that right in the west, that transformation, that sort of transformative moment in history. We're going through that right now and it's you come to El Salvador, you, you're going to want to stay and you're going to want to build. You'll have that build excitement, that energy will go through you.

A (45:36)

That's great. And so I am. I do think people should visit and I want them to see for themselves. Send photos. And thank you very much, Stacy. And thank you to the government of El Salvador for appearing at the number state conference.

B (45:48)

Good to be here.

A (45:49)

Great. Okay.