Neurodivergent Rumination: Why We Can’t Stop Overthinking

Summary

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Episode Overview

Podcast: The Neurodivergent Experience
Hosts: Jordan James & Simon Scott
Episode Title: Neurodivergent Rumination: Why We Can’t Stop Overthinking
Date: April 29, 2026

This episode explores the phenomenon of rumination within the neurodivergent community, particularly as experienced by autistic and ADHD individuals. Hosts Jordan and Simon share candid personal stories, offer relatable analogies, and delve into the ties between rumination, rejection sensitivity dysphoria (RSD), trauma, and masking. The episode emphasizes self-compassion, understanding one's own neurodivergent brain, and strategies for managing overwhelming thought loops.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Updates and Neurodivergent Burnout (03:00–04:46)

• Simon reflects on his increased social engagement and happiness, but notes persistent exhaustion due to finite energy.
• Simon:

  “It’s really frustrating when you’re doing things you enjoy...I feel like I’m more tired than I’ve ever been, even when I’m doing stuff that I enjoy.” (03:43)

• Jordan underscores the importance of managing one’s energy (“count your spoons”) and learning to say no.

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2. Defining Neurodivergent Rumination (05:28–07:36)

• Simon introduces the topic: Rumination is common, but for neurodivergent people, it feels more intense and inescapable.
• Jordan links rumination to rejection sensitivity dysphoria (RSD) and trauma.
• The difference between neurotypical and neurodivergent experience is a matter of intensity:

  “Neurotypical’s max volume is five, right? Our...minimum is five and our maximum is, well, God knows, literally Spinal Tap 11.” (08:20)

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3. Everyday Examples and Impact (09:50–12:28)

• Neurotypicals ruminate, but neurodivergent people can become consumed by minor incidents, e.g., a brief interaction with a barista leading to hours of self-questioning.
• Simon:

  “You sat in traffic and you’re missing green lights because you can’t stop thinking about whether you upset a complete and utter stranger you may never see again.” (11:09)

• Jordan shares that periods in nature (e.g., sitting alone in the woods) can provide a “reset,” but the real world quickly brings intrusive, ruminative thoughts back.

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4. Bottom-Up Processing & Hypervigilance (12:28–14:41)

• Simon explains his cognitive style:

  “I’m talking to people and I feel like I’m scanning them like Sherlock Holmes...Tabs are just forever opening...” (13:20)

• Jordan clarifies:

  “It’s basically tree-learning over forest-learning...neurotypical look at a bunch of trees and say it’s a forest. Neurodivergent people have to look at all the trees first.”

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5. The Physical & Emotional Toll of Rumination (14:41–18:33)

• Ruminative thoughts can cause strong bodily reactions (involuntary movements, physical pain).
• Social trauma (“ostracization and alienation”) heightens vigilance for negative cues.
• Rumination can lead to panic-attack-like experiences or persistent low-level anxiety.

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6. Perfectionism, Masking, and Workplace Struggles (20:30–25:44)

• Jordan describes the “perfectionism loop”: fear of criticism leads to perfectionism and masking, causing stress and burnout.

  “If it doesn’t reach a certain standard, then somebody’s gonna say something negative...The term take it on the chin...is not for us.” (21:00)

• Simon uses a computer analogy:

  “Neurotypicals don’t have to download anything...With me, I’ve got freakin’ malware in my brain that I don’t want, that’s just running in the background...” (24:26)

• Masking and internal rumination are exhausting, and often invisible to others.

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7. Social Overwhelm and Miscommunication (27:38–33:53)

• Jordan recounts a personal story: misreading a long message from his sister triggered a ruminative spiral leading to arguments and withdrawal.
• Reading the message later, with a trusted person’s help, he saw it was in fact supportive and caring.

  “My brain just starts picking out words...Instead of picking out positive words, it picks out negative words...” (29:08)

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8. Guilt, Parenting, and Memory Bias (35:58–40:37)

• Jordan shares struggles of parenting as a neurodivergent person—worrying his children will remember only his “bad” moments and not the good.
• Simon:

  “You never see the good stuff...I only seem to remember the bad stuff. Why is that in my brain? Why can’t I remember the good stuff?” (38:51)

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9. Strategies for Managing Rumination (41:53–51:17)

• Simon: Labeling the thought pattern helps (“I name you, you demon”). Separating oneself from the rumination lessens its power.

  “Now I kind of go, that’s a rumination reaction. The feeling that I’m feeling right now is RSD. And having the logic to recognize my symptoms and my traits doesn’t make it feel like it’s happening to me as much.” (43:37)

• Self-compassion and recognizing regulation strategies (nature, breathwork, support animals).
• Jordan:

  “I just have to keep doing it...That’s being neurodivergent. We are constantly on hyper alert and it’s very tiring, very stressful. So you have to look after yourself.” (50:15)

• Simon uses the metaphor of a haunted village—old “demons” don’t go away, but you can learn to coexist with them.

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10. Acceptance, Preparation, and Self-Kindness (56:50–59:05)

• Simon: Acceptance is crucial—“No matter how much you fight it, this will happen again. Learning and understanding that this is just part of the lived experience.”
• Jordan:

  “Just be kind to yourself because...we can’t depend on others to be kind to us.”

• The episode ends with gratitude and a reminder of the importance of validation and community.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “…our minimum is five and our maximum is…literally Spinal Tap 11.” (Jordan, 08:20)
• “You sat in traffic and you’re missing green lights because you can’t stop thinking about whether you upset a complete and utter stranger you may never see again.” (Simon, 11:09)
• “I’m talking to people and I feel like I’m scanning them like Sherlock Holmes…Tabs are just forever opening…” (Simon, 13:20)
• “Neurotypicals don’t have to download anything…With me, I’ve got frickin’ malware in my brain that I don’t want, that’s just running in the background…” (Simon, 24:26)
• “You never see the good stuff. You never feel the good stuff.” (Simon, 38:51)
• “Now I’m trying to be the best friend I’ve ever had to me. And just be kind to myself…” (Simon, 57:32)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 03:00 – Simon discusses burnout and finite energy
• 05:28 – What is neurodivergent rumination?
• 08:20 – Intensity: “Spinal Tap 11” analogy
• 11:09 – Overthinking minor social interactions
• 13:20 – Pattern matching and bottom-up processing
• 20:30 – The perfectionism loop, burnout, masking
• 24:26 – “Malware in my brain” analogy
• 29:08 – Reading negativity into messages, spiral example
• 38:51 – Memory bias: why only bad things stick
• 41:53 – Labeling rumination, naming the demon
• 50:15 – Living with hypervigilance, keeping up with self-care
• 56:50 – Acceptance and understanding rumination as a chronic aspect

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Conclusion: Tone & Final Messages

The tone throughout is warm, self-effacing, deeply honest, and gently humorous. Both hosts validate the shared struggles of the neurodivergent community, balancing useful analogies—like haunted villages and mental malware—with candor about pain and strategies for coping. The episode is ultimately hopeful, emphasizing community, acceptance, and the necessity—and challenge—of ongoing self-kindness.

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Useful for:

• Anyone seeking to understand the lived reality of neurodivergent rumination
• Listeners craving real-world strategies, not just abstract theory
• Those looking for validation and a sense of connection within the neurodivergent “neurotribe”

Transcript

[Simon Scott]

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[Jordan James]

Welcome to the neurodivergent Experience Podcast, a podcast where we share the lived experiences of neurodivergent people to help create a better understanding for our community.

[Simon Scott]

Join us every week as we bring you honest, raw and inspiring conversations with specialists, advocates and individuals who know exactly what it's like to live the neurodivergent experience.

[Jordan James]

I'm Jordan James, a neurodivergent specialist, father of neurodivergent children, husband to a neurodivergent wife and author of the Autistic Experience, and I'm joined by my best friend,

[Simon Scott]

I'm Simon Scott I'm an autistic ADHD broadcaster, actor, and advocate. Join us as we journey into unraveling the neurodivergent experience.

[Jordan James]

Hello and welcome back, everybody. Hello, Scotty.

[Simon Scott]

Hello, my friend. How are you doing? You okay?

[Jordan James]

No, I'm tired.

[Simon Scott]

It was a flip roll reversal. I'm feeling a lot more energized than I was when you were speaking to Ashley the other week. Honestly, mate, I couldn't string a sentence together that day. And I was getting so worried that I wasn't gonna be able to do the podcast. And at no point did, at any point, like, in my brain go, you could just not do it. I really had to think about it. And then even when I was talking to you and Ashley and I was like, could I just sit it out? I felt, like, really bad. But that's just sort of the. The. The experience of being one of our people, I guess. You definitely overthink and worry about what other people are thinking.

[Jordan James]

Well, yeah, you've. You've become a very, very busy boy.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah.

[Jordan James]

Doing. Doing lots of interesting life things.

[Simon Scott]

It's getting that way, mate. It's very funny. I was sort of trying to reflect on this and acknowledge this the other day in that I actually. Compared to when we first started doing this podcast, I've got a really full, colorful, and busy life, and I'm actually really happy and really enjoying stuff, but my energy is also finite, and it's really frustrating when you're doing things you enjoy. And, like, I'm a lot more social. I've got way more friends than I had when we first started doing this. And, you know, it. It's. It's. It's awesome. But then at the same time, like, I feel like I'm more tired than I've ever been. Even when I'm doing stuff that I enjoy. It's really frustrating having the battery that I have. Like, I just. I wish that I had more go and more zip to do, even more. But that's the. That's the fun part of having a relationship with yourself and learning to accommodate. It's. It's a steep learning curve, my friend.

[Jordan James]

Yeah. You've got to make sure that you. You count your spoons properly.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah, I'm still not. Not great, if I'm honest. It's.

[Jordan James]

Yeah, well, you've also. You've also got to learn to say no.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah.

[Jordan James]

No.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah.

[Jordan James]

No, stop that. No.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah. Yeah. I'm getting there. I'm a lot better than I used to be. A lot better than I used to be. Yeah. So that's, that's where I'm at. I'm feeling a little bit better. But I thought today on the podcast we could talk about something that I know that I've definitely seen a lot of it. And the people that I've spoken to through the network and through the work that I do, rumination, neurodivergent rumination

[Jordan James]

is

[Simon Scott]

something that I thought was just me. And it was very refreshing to see that other people deal with this. But at the same time, it's hard to separate yourself from things. So that's what we're discussing today. This is a bit of another RSD discussion, sort of info dump. And trying to validate not only my own experiences and Jordan's, but you the listener as well. So that's what we're going to be talking about today. So before I delve into rumination and sort of my reading of it, what's. What's your thoughts on neurodivergent rumination, dude?

[Jordan James]

Well, it's. It's basically an emotional pain from perceived rejection. That's the rejection, sensitivity, dysphoria part of it. And I do think it's trauma based.

[Simon Scott]

Oh, yeah.

[Jordan James]

But it's, it's like everything else when it comes to neurodivergence. Because I had a discussion with Sophie the other day and she's obviously, she's doing a mentoring and, you know, she's doing really well, but she now is surrounded by so many neurodivergent people. Like just basically she doesn't really get out much.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah.

[Jordan James]

And she, she's at that point because she doesn't have a job out, you know, in a workplace or anything like that. And even when she was at uni, she, you know, she mostly just knew neurodivergent people. And you do wonder at some point when you surround yourself with so many neurodiversion people, you go, what the hell is a neurotypical? Who. What is a neurotypical? Because neurodivergence covers so many things now on this program we, we focus in on, on the alternative neurotypes. A born neurodivergent. Not dismissing anybody that becomes, you know, neurodivergent. But we talk about neurotypicals and even I'm struggling to go, well, what, what is a neurotypical? And the reason is, is because neurotypicals do exactly what neurodivergent people do. We all do exactly the same things. We just do things and experience things more intensely.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah.

[Jordan James]

So when it comes to rumination, someone might go well, you know, everybody ruminates. Of course they do. It's a human nature to go over things in your mind again and again and again and relive moments, relive conversations,

[Simon Scott]

polish the turd, as I would say.

[Jordan James]

Indeed, yeah. And especially when it comes to trauma. Everyone gets traumatized at some point in their life, you know, by people, by moments, by things. Especially with the amount of news that we're, you know, that flies us every day on our phones and things like that. You can't really escape much nowadays unless you just put your phone down, which is what I always suggest. But I think that the, the main difference is obviously we, we experience everything's more intensely. Like if, if there's a volume button, Neurotypical's max volume is five, right? Our, our base level, our minimum is five and our maximum is well knows, literally Spinal Tap 11. And it, it, and that's, that's how we experience the world. We experience the world pretty much on at least medium volume to full volume at every part of every moment. So if someone's looking at go, well, you know, I think I might be neurodivergent. Do you experience. But not, do you do the same things as a neurodivergent person? Do you experience it like that? So when you say to someone, oh, I can smell that thing and everyone else is like, I have no idea what you're talking about. And you're like, and it's so intense that you can literally almost taste the smell and no one else can smell. That's being neurodivergent right there. So the idea of rumination from a neurodivergent perspective is it's times, God knows how much. And, and that's, that's where it becomes really, really hard for us to cope because it's so intense that it can cause emotional pain.

[Simon Scott]

Oh yeah.

[Jordan James]

Over something incredibly seemingly small. So again, if in a comparison in Neurotypical, let's say it's your wedding day and you know, your mother in law turns up in a white dress and calls you the C word and, and you're just like, what the hell happened?

[Simon Scott]

Specific what the hell?

[Jordan James]

Reddit stories. It's like, what, what happened? And then, and if that's your wedding day and you just be thinking about that over and over and over again. But like something like that is, is, is like something you will ruminate over. It's a big thing in your life, It's a big moment. But that sort of level of intensity we can ruminate over. Oh, I just, I had A conversation with barista while I was making my coffee and I might have been a little bit sharp or a little bit. Or did. Was I rude or was, was I annoyed or. I mean, I was very tired. That's why I was having my coffee. And oh, maybe I shouldn't have said it like that. And I don't know, did she seem upset? Was she busy? Or maybe she was tired or maybe she was rude and maybe I was. And then you're like, but it was just getting a coffee, it's not a big deal.

[Simon Scott]

And you sat in traffic and you're missing green lights because you can't stop thinking about whether you upset a complete and utter stranger you may never see again.

[Jordan James]

It's. It's kind of why lately, in order to gain my circle of control, I've just taken myself away from humans.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah.

[Jordan James]

And I'm finding myself in. And even this morning in bluebell woods, just surrounded by nature and little robins and birds singing and, you know, I've got my camera with me, but a lot of times I'm just sitting there and I'm just appreciating being surrounded by nature. This morning, three and a half hours, I just sat in a wood by myself. I saw like two people in the entire time. And that, that was perfect. It was, it was, it was like a reset. It's so good. And then I get out, you know, get back on in my car and get on the road and all of a sudden life comes and, and those thoughts come and then I'm, you know, and I'm, oh God, what if I do this? Oh, one. And it is, it is difficult. But yeah, so like, that's, that's the neurodivergent perspective of it. How do you experience it? And, and you know, how bad is it?

[Simon Scott]

You know, this is the thing that I've found so helpful about doing this podcast just on my life in general, mate, is it really actually makes me think about my lived experience and, you know, talking about ruminating on like social cues or just social interactions. I have always been a pattern matcher and a bottom up processor. And I'm talking to people and I feel like I'm scanning them like Sherlock Holmes, like looking for facial. Sorry, go on.

[Jordan James]

Well, I was just gonna say for audience, what is a bottom up processor? Because I've actually noticed that some people comment on my Facebook page asking what that is. So, you know, just in case someone doesn't know.

[Simon Scott]

Oh, wow. How do you phrase that? I wish I'd had that written down.

[Jordan James]

Sorry, you do say it a lot. And I'm just like, yeah, okay.

[Simon Scott]

It's one of those things where, like, I know what it means in my head, but I've now got to try and find the words for it. So, like, I always think of bottom up Processing is just the, like the neurodivergent way of processing is when I look at somebody or I'm talking to somebody, I feel like I'm scanning them for evidence. Like I'm looking at their shoes and I go, oh, they bought those shoes because they like this, this, this, this, this. And they're wearing those glasses because of this, this. Like it's tabs. Tabs are just forever opening when I'm talking to people and looking at people. And it's because I'm scanning the situation from top to bottom, like bottom to the top. Whereas, like, top down processing, somebody just look at it and they go, you're wearing shoes. I go, well, Jordan's not wearing shoes. He's wearing Jordan ones that came out in 2018. And the reason that he likes them is because of this team and they make him feel this and this looks like this. Other people look at him and go, he's got shoes on.

[Jordan James]

So it's basically tree learning over forest learning. Tree learning, cutting all the trees need to before you need to know it's a forest. Yeah, forest learning. You look at a bunch of trees and say it's a forest and you piss off in a very neurotypical way. So, yeah, okay, so that's, that's essentially what it is.

[Simon Scott]

But so when you add that into, like social interactions, I'm scanning people for evidence, but also because I'm highly sensitive and I've got a lot of trauma around, like, social, like ostracization and alienation and stuff. And I'm looking for evidence of being disliked. So, like, I'm saying something and I see somebody's facial reaction and I go, oh, I've said something. And it's like I'm having a conversation. But then there's the internal conversation I'm having with myself at the same time. That's the bit that I struggle with in the. I can be in the shower and I will not even have a choice on this. It's like the image will flash across my face like a photograph that's just been taken of the past and it will be an interaction I had with somebody. It may have even been like a date I went on over 10 years ago or even something that I said in school. I will have A physical reaction to either the cringe or the embarrassment or just the negative feeling that comes from thinking about that moment. And it will cause a tick in me. I will literally, my neck will hit my shoulder and my face will scrunch up. Sometimes I'll even involuntary say something out loud related to what I'm thinking about. Like there'll be times where I was thinking about some. An argument I had with somebody, you know, when you go, I wish I'd said that. And I will actually say that out loud. I'll say the thing randomly and I'm like, oh, I have like no physical control over it is literally like a tic response. But dude, it hurts. It's like it literally feels like I'm being electrocuted. Sometimes when these thoughts come, and on top of that, it's then like the, the worry of, oh, well, maybe I really hurt that person when I did that thing. And then it's like I'm feeling guilt. So it's like all of these emotions of these cocktails happen because a thought, an involuntary thought hits my head and then suddenly I cannot stop thinking about it. Something so simple as like, imagine you're with your girlfriend or your wife and you're walking with them and you bump into one of their exes. And then suddenly I'm imagining the entire relationship that they had with my partner. In my head, I have no evidence of that. I have no sort of theory of that. But then suddenly in my head I'm going, oh, well, they were taller than me and I think they're better looking than me and more successful than me. And then like paranoia kicks in on the top of that as well. And it's like, I just can't stop these thought processes and I get in like a really nasty loop in that sometimes these thoughts can last a couple of hours and they'll feel like a panic attack. It's like, I can't breathe. I can't get above the water of this thought. And then sometimes it'll almost be like a record playing in the background for months and months and months and months. Like if I was at work and somebody pulled me aside and they were like, I actually don't appreciate how you did that at work. Or you need to work on this, you need to work on that. I would feel so incredibly self conscious that everything moving forward would have that thought in the back, almost like influencing my behavior and how I feel about things. Like, I would be at work and constantly in the back of my head that conversation would be playing like radio in the background. Like well I have to do that because remember, don't forget the thing that's been, that's played and like my thoughts can really influence my actions and sometimes I can feel really out of control in my head and it's really frightening. Dude. Sometimes it's like really scares me because I can't stop it. It just like comes and when it's here I've just got to go through. Sucks.

[Jordan James]

Yeah, it's getting just stuck in a thought loop.

[Simon Scott]

Literally. It's literally just getting stuck in a

[Jordan James]

thought loop over and over and over again. And yeah, it's, it's really, really shitty. Let's have a break and when we come back we can delve deeper into the mind of the nd.

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[Jordan James]

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[Simon Scott]

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[Simon Scott]

Welcome back to the neurodivergent Experience. I don't know about you But I've just been thinking about everything I just said because we're talking about neurodivergent rumination with a little sprinkle of rejection, sensitivity, dysphoria. Rsd. Something that you mentioned there, dude, is getting your thoughts stuck in a loop. And we've got written in our notes here the perfectionism loop. Fear of criticism leads to perfectionism or social masking, hiding your traits, resulting in high stress, burnout, intense fear of disappointing others.

[Jordan James]

Yeah, we. We do get into this mindset of if, if it doesn't reach a certain standard, then somebody's gonna say something negative about it. And, and when somebody says something negative, you know, the, The, The. The term take it on the chin, I think is. It just is not for us. We can't. We can't take on it. A freaking fly lands in my chin, I'm down. And. And it's. It is something that, that as a neurodivergent person, you. You need to. To work on. You do need to toughen yourself up. And, you know, it's, It's. It sounds a bit like, harsh. Just like, get over it. But essentially that is what you actually have to do. Because I, I think that it. Like, if it's somebody that you really, really care about, then one, they shouldn't be saying negative things. And they should actually, if they, if they care about you in the same way, they should be more careful about how they critique or what they say to you. You know, you've got to be careful. But if you're dealing with just a rando or even like someone at work, them, I guess, just like, honestly, I. I don't think I've ever been happier when I just didn't give a. What people thought. You know, it's. It's like if. If I, If I do my job, then I, I literally have this, this mindset of minimum is the maximum.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah.

[Jordan James]

Like, as long as I can do

[Simon Scott]

the bare minimum, I do what I'm meant to do.

[Jordan James]

Yeah, I'm not gonna go. I mean, I have gone out of my way to try and impress bosses and colleagues and, you know, and I've won awards and stuff like that. Do you know what I got for that?

[Simon Scott]

More work.

[Jordan James]

Just no appreciation. I got the same amount of money as all the people that didn't do it. And I. What I got was. Of course it is. Of course it is. Now, I'm not saying don't try harder at work. I'm not saying that. I'm saying if you've. You've Got to weigh up the negatives and the positives, the pros and the cons. You say, okay, I have this many spoons and it's going to take this many of those spoons to really put myself out there. Then how many spoons is it going to cost me? Sitting around worrying, did I do right? Are they going to appreciate it?

[Simon Scott]

Are to.

[Jordan James]

They going, is what I did, you know, going to get the, the reaction that I thought that the overthinking, the rumination, that also takes spoons. So it's not just the doing the extra and going the extra mile. It's dealing with that and putting yourself above the, the trenches, as it were. You pop your head out of the trenches. Was it worth it? Did you get your head shut off? So a lot of the times I look at it and just go, but it's, it's an energy thing because it, again, you know, it takes energy for everyone to do this, but it takes an extraordinarily large amount of energy for a neurodivergent person to put their head above the water. Like you said, you know, just to go away. How are you doing?

[Simon Scott]

Do you know what it makes me think of, right, Neurotypicals. If we think of brains as computers, neurotypicals don't have to download anything. They can just open the tab. Whereas with, like, with me, I've got freaking malware in my brain that I don't want, that's just running in the background and it activates when I don't want it to. And it's like, oh, you want your process. You need 80 of your processing power. Well, I'm gonna take 40 of it. And your trauma is going to use that right now.

[Jordan James]

Yeah. I think.

[Simon Scott]

Brilliant.

[Jordan James]

I think one of the things that's really, really terrible is that, you know, we're, we will become very easily distracted.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah.

[Jordan James]

And a lot of people go, oh, that's like, oh, that's adhd. You know, it's attention deficit. Or alternatively, you're trying to do something and then a really, really negative thought just attacks you and you just sit there, absolutely just stuck in that thought process of, oh, but what happened in that time three years ago?

[Simon Scott]

Go, and, and what are the consequences now?

[Jordan James]

But no one can see inside your head and you're trying to mask that. You're trying to not let it bother you. So you're sitting there fighting your demons. You're full on battle against your demons.

[Simon Scott]

Pure Constantine vibes. Just straight.

[Jordan James]

Exactly. And, and it's all going on in your head. And you're trying to also do things, get.

[Simon Scott]

Just get on with life.

[Jordan James]

Yeah, it's hard.

[Simon Scott]

You know what, dude? I was thinking about this the other day and I had a chat with a buddy of mine about it because even though I'm happy at the moment, this is a thing that I live with every other day. You know, I can get into a bit of a negative thought spiral that can almost feel like I'm having a panic attack. And afterwards I'm exhausted. It's so tiring. But adding on top of that, that whole misconception of, well, when you leave school every. Everybody behaves themselves and stuff like that. You add this brain into a working environment where people are shitty and, and there's clicks and like social ostracization in offices and things like that, and feeling underappreciated and that rejection sensitivity kicking in. Add that on top of somebody that's. That's trying to work. And neurodivergent people do annoy neurotypical people in many cases. A lot of the time they find us intimidating. And they'll say shitty things to you because they're feeling shitty themselves, but they won't go home and think about how it's made you feel. But you do. And you have to live with the energy that people just throw away because they're frustrated in a moment. And that moment for you can feel like a lifetime. It can feel like months and months and months. And it's even more difficult when, you know, you try and have conversations with people in work or anything like that, and you go, oh, I'm dealing with this, I'm dealing with that. And the response that 99 of people get is, well, everyone has to deal with that. Yeah, but it's, it's different. And then suddenly you feel like you're asking for special treatment. And then the rumination kicks in again.

[Jordan James]

Yeah, you're just like, well, why. Why do I deserve for people to accommodate me? You know, I don't deserve that. And the fact is, is that we, we do deserve it. Everyone deserves to be accommodated for when they have disabilities. You know, that's. That is just how to be good in society is giving everybody that leg up if they need it. I mean, I had a situation recently where I'm going to be. I meant to be visiting my sister and I, I said to her, oh, if, if we're going to come all the. Because she lives in Sweden. I said, look, if we're going to come to Sweden, the, The idea was that we were going to come for the weekend. And I was like, okay, why don't I come for a week? You know, make a holiday of it. All the way to Sweden. Make a holiday out of it.

[Simon Scott]

It's a beautiful place as well. Sweden. There's a lot to see.

[Jordan James]

So I'm. And. And then she sends me this really, really long message back. And my brain looks. I mean, I just woken up. Right. First, I literally just woke up.

[Simon Scott]

Doesn't help.

[Jordan James]

And I'm looking at this really, really long message that's not broken up, by the way. It's just a long message.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah.

[Jordan James]

And my brain just start picking out words and instead of picking out positive words, it picks out negative words. Like, it's 10 days is a lot to be in a flat all together. And I'm Straight away, I went, oh, you don't want me there.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah.

[Jordan James]

And that. Immediately I was like, oh, you don't want me there. And suddenly it doesn't matter. Like, all the other words disappear and I can only look and only see the. The negative words. And then I, I literally just message back, forget about it. Just that. That was my. Just forget about it if you don't want me there. And then I was in a. A spiral and I got really upset because I was like, fine, you know, screw me. I mean, obviously everyone hates me and especially when it's my family.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah.

[Jordan James]

Because they obviously my. My trauma comes from when I was a child and I had a lot of difficulty with my family because of how I was. I always. I mean, even though they're all neurodivergent, I felt like I was always the worst one. I was the bad one because I got into so much trouble, because I caused so much trouble because I was so traumatized. But I. I always felt like I was, I was the, the bad sheep. So those feelings immediately start coming back of, oh, my. Obviously my sister doesn't. Doesn't want me there really. And, you know, or it's, it's. It's just, you know, obviously I'm. I'm going to be a problem. All those things just stop coming into my head. And then Sylvia's like, no, no, no, that. That's. I doubt you.

[Simon Scott]

Down from the mountain. Yeah.

[Jordan James]

And then, and then Simon, you. You know, who has, who has been out there and seen his auntie and, and so is Sophie is, Is gonna go and, and see her as well. She's already got the tickets booked. You know, it's like we're. We all go at different times, but we've never been there. And I'm just spiraling and I'm just like, no, this is it. You know, I don't give a. You know, and does. If someone doesn't want to spend time with me, then, you know, I've got plenty of friends and I don't care.

[Simon Scott]

I don't care if you say to yourself, I don't give a. But you wouldn't have this reaction if you.

[Jordan James]

Oh, of course I give a shit.

[Simon Scott]

You know, it's like literally throwing a plaster on another plaster of that for me. That's what I, that's how I feel about that.

[Jordan James]

Anyway, but the crazy thing. And then I literally lost my temper with Simon, who was only trying to help, and I just went, just. Because sometimes you just want to sound bored just to, to be totally just shouting. He's trying to give me advice because he's very, very neurodivergent and that, oh, I need to fix that problem.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah.

[Jordan James]

And, and I'm. I, I freaking lose it with him. And we, we have a little explosion and, and it, I, and, and, and the worst thing about this was that I felt just before that I felt like really, really good. And then Sylvia and I, we, I, I ended up just getting in the car and start driving off, even though Sylvia and I were meant to have a walk. And I literally had a, A proper meltdown. I just got in the car and started driving. And in my car, there's a button I press and it just plays Sounds of Nature. It's built into the car. It's just, it's just built, it's, it's a Kia, and it's just built into this. Into the car. So it's, it's in, it's in the car and it, you just press it and it just does these like, nature sounds. And within like 30 seconds I was like, huh, okay. I'm okay. And then I stopped the car, turned the car back, came back and was like, babe, do you want to come for a walk?

[Simon Scott]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mad, isn't it?

[Jordan James]

So we got in the car, we drove, we went into. To the woods. Same woods I was in this morning, actually. It's my special place. And then all she's going, what exactly did your sister say? So I pull out the message like, you know, look how bad it is, dude. When I read that message, it was unbelievably sweet and kind and accommodating and lovely. And she's like, look, we. I don't want you to be stuck in this very small flat in this town. So we've actually got a place in the countryside that belongs to my boyfriend's parents, and they said that you can. Guys can use it, and it's a really lovely little cottage, and maybe you could stay there during the week. And any chance that I get, because she's, you know, studying to be a doctor, we're going to come out and we're also going to come and see you, and then you can come and stay with us at the weekends and then. And you guys can have a lovely holiday. And I'm like, this is a different message.

[Simon Scott]

Your brain reads what it wants to read.

[Jordan James]

It sucks that. And I'm sorry for everyone. That was a really long story. It's. It's. It's very, very poignant because it just goes to show you that that negativity that has been pushed on me my whole life of, no one wants you around, dude. No one wants you. You're too much. You're too much. And then when I actually stopped and read the message properly, it was more of, I do want you here, and I'm trying to be as accommodating as possibly to give you the best time. And it was. It was a completely different message. It was the same message, but I saw it in a completely different way.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah, it's. It's mental, isn't it? Sometimes I actually feel like my brain gaslights me, but I will read a message. Oh, yeah, I will have the reaction that you've had exact. In exactly the same way. And then I read it and I literally look at my phone and I go, that is not the message that I read an hour ago. It's not. Why did I read that differently? And it's really frustrating because the amount of times, dude, I feel like a dick. Like, I respond to stuff and react to stuff and have meltdowns about things, and I then speak to that person and they're like, what? What's wrong? What's going on? And I, again, in that ableist way, I just feel like a big diva. I feel like a big drama queen because it's my trauma that's responding. And it's almost like I'm on the other side of a glass box going, this is not what I think. This is not what I feel. I'm not in control right now. But it's trying to explain that to people and navigating the consequences of it. It's literally like, as you put a fire out, you. You're throwing it somewhere else, and then there's another one starting. It's. It's really hard to manage. And I imagine as well, I don't have any lived experience with this, but navigating this as a parent must be tough. Like, when you're overthinking about what you've said to your kids or what they say to you, it must be a shit, dude, dude.

[Jordan James]

I mean, the amount of times where I, because my, my dad was very neglecting, like, he, he didn't spend a lot of time with us. Absent, very absent. A very absent father, like, absent. Even when he was in the room, he seemed absent, you know, but neurodivergence is different with other people. But I made a point of, like, when I had my kids to just do absolutely everything I possibly could, even if I didn't like it. And trust me, umpiring a cricket game was not my idea, but I did it because my son wanted to play.

[Simon Scott]

Oh, my God.

[Jordan James]

Yeah, I know. I, I hate cricket. I really do.

[Simon Scott]

I can imagine you just be like, you're out. I want to go home. You're out.

[Jordan James]

I want to go home. I, I, I did it because my son was, was wanted to play cricket. And I, basically the point I'm trying to make is I, I, I would do anything to, to be there for my kids, to show them that they have a dad that, that gives a, that actually cares. And, you know, and I was at the same, at the time, I was dealing with a lot of my own trauma, a lot of my own issues, but I always made sure that, you know, I, my kids weren't affected by it as best I could. It wasn't perfect, but I tried my best, but spending time with them. So now when I say, oh, Simon, do you want to play Baldur's Gate 3 or do you want to, you know, play this game with me? And he's like, oh, no, I'm, I'm actually playing with one of my other friends. I hate myself. And it's not his fault. He's just being, I want to say a teenager, but he's nearly 25, but

[Simon Scott]

essentially he's still being heavily seasoned teenager.

[Jordan James]

Yeah, he's, he is still, he's still in his lives, in his room. He still plays video games with his mates online and, but, you know, doesn't really go out that much. Remember that he has a job, which is always good, but, yeah, but like, I would have dreamed of a dad that was like, do you want to play a video game with me? I would have been like, oh, my God, dad, yes, yes, I do. And it just never happened. And now I'm trying to do that for my son, but he's always busy. And you know that song, Cats in the Cradle?

[Simon Scott]

Cats in the Cradle.

[Jordan James]

But it's. It's like he's Cats in the. Cradling me. Like, I like. The whole point of that song is it's about an absent father, that when his son grows up, he then tries to spend time with him, and the son turns it around because it's too late. I was like, I'm not the absent father. I'm the. If anything, maybe a little bit overbearing. But again, that's just me being negative on myself. It's like, oh, maybe I was too much.

[Simon Scott]

Maybe feeling. Is it when you think about yourself, that's the bit that sucks.

[Jordan James]

Very, very rarely.

[Simon Scott]

Like, you never see the good stuff. You never. You never feel the good stuff. That's. That's the thing that frustrates me so much about just this lived experience is that it always seems to be negative. So I never feel the good stuff. I don't remember the good stuff. I only seem to remember the bad stuff. I was talking to some. Some buddies the other day about just some stuff that we used to do, and I'm like, why can't I remember that? But I can remember a conversation that I had with somebody who I've never seen. Again, why is that in my brain? Why can't I remember the good stuff? It's really frustrating.

[Jordan James]

I'm getting better. I mean, I remember the good stuff with my kids. I did a lot of good stuff with my kids. I'm just hoping that, you know, they remember. I think that's. That's the thing that I worry about is that. Are they remembering the times where I had a meltdown or are they remembering the times where I used to sing them to sleep and. And do stories and use their cuddly toys as, like, puppets and. And create little stories and read them. I read them the. The. The Faraway Tree, and I did all the voices of the different characters. And, you know, are they remembering that or are they remembering the fact that. That Daddy would sit in a corner and bite himself and hit himself, even though I didn't know they were there and I was. And I always worry about stuff like that. I mean, my. My kids always tell me that. That. That, you know, that they love me and, you know, they understand and they really appreciate how good I was as a dad. But like you said, it's always. I always sit and think, you know, about the.

[Simon Scott]

The bad sit in the Bullshit soup. So let's take a little break, shall we? And when we get back, I thought we could maybe discuss how we work on this, because I'm getting better. We'll see. We'll be right back. AI is transforming customer service. It's real and it works. And with Fin, we've built the number one AI agent for customer service.

[Jordan James]

We're seeing lots of cases where it's

[Simon Scott]

solving up to 90% of real queries for real business businesses. This includes the real world. Complex stuff like issuing a refund or canceling an order. And we also see it when Fin goes up against competitors. It's top of all the performance benchmarks, top of the G2 leaderboard. And if you're not happy, we'll refund you up to a million dollars, which I think says it all. Check it out for yourself at fin. A. Welcome back to the neurodivergent Experience. I hope you weren't ruminating on anything during the break. I definitely was trying not to. Weird old thing this. And I'm glad that we're talking about it because it's making me validate my own experiences. Dude, I always really appreciate that you're such a good soundboard for me and, like, our friendship's been so beneficial for me to be able to do this.

[Jordan James]

Oh, thanks, man.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah, but it's catching the narrative, isn't it? That's the thing that I've got written down here. It's like labeling the thought pattern. And that is something that has helped me so, so much with educating myself about this sort of stuff, in that when I can't stop my thoughts, I don't sit there anymore and go, I'm a crazy person. I'm a crazy person. Why can't I stop my brain? I go, ah, that's rumination. I name you, you demon. And it seems easier to face when you actually know what it is that you're facing and you can recognize it and name it and separate yourself from it. Silence. You may speak.

[Jordan James]

No, I was listening to you.

[Simon Scott]

Okay, I'll keep that in. That's funny. But that's something that's really, really helped me recently in the. A lot of my negative traits about being neurodivergent and the things that I struggle with, it doesn't feel as personal anymore. It actually feels like I'm not my rumination. It's something that happens within my brain, but it doesn't mean I'm a bad person. It doesn't affect my soul. It's just something I have to Navigate. And it seems not as big when it doesn't feel like. Like I don't try and say to myself, there's something wrong with me anymore. That's like, where I'm. What I'm trying to say with this. I try and separate myself from the things that I have. Like when I have meltdowns, I don't sit there and go, what's happening? I go, I'm having a meltdown. Let's navigate this.

[Jordan James]

Yeah.

[Simon Scott]

And recognizing the signs of when they're coming. Like when a thought will flash across my head and I'll have a big tick and I'll go. And then afterwards, I never go, what the fuck was that? What was that? And then ruminate on what it was. Now I kind of go up. That's a rumination reaction. The feeling that I'm feeling right now is rsd and having the logic to be able to recognize my symptoms and my traits doesn't make it feel like it's happening to me as much. It feels like it's just something that I have to navigate.

[Jordan James]

Yeah, no, I, I think that that's. I mean, I listen to other podcasts and I read a lot of advocacy stuff, and obviously a lot of people do talks, and I've been to talks, and I think a lot of people, they, they, they, they focus on talking about neurodivergence. Like, not like it's a disease, but like, like it's this, this thing that we need to understand, as in like, like a physical thing. And I think that's, that's what I like about this podcast. And, and talking between us is, it's, it's not a thing. It's. It's a, It's a life. It is an experience. It is, is us. It is. Rather than just saying, oh, neurodivergent people go, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[Simon Scott]

I am inflicted by X, Y, Z.

[Jordan James]

Because I, I can talk about that till the cows come home. I can sit there from a specialist point of view and tell you what, what it is that you are feeling and why you're feeling it. And I can go into the science, but at the end of the day, that's not always going to help that knowing that other people go through the same thing, knowing other. The fact that other people have to navigate the world in the same way and knowing that, that they're able to come out the other side healthily, I think that that is incredibly validating, and I think that that's one of the most important things. So understanding yourself and how you interact with your version of your neurodivergence. That is, that is the key to, to not hating yourself, not feeling like you're less. Because I think that even, and I say this in, in the, in the nicest way, I've been watching Love on the Spectrum again. My God, Season four.

[Simon Scott]

Why'd you do this?

[Jordan James]

I'm so sorry. Because, because I hate myself. And, and when I'm watching it, I'm suddenly like hyper aware. Because, because these people are mostly intellectually disabled. Or at least the synaptic pruning has not happened.

[Simon Scott]

Mostly high support needs across the board.

[Jordan James]

Yeah, but I, I like that they're lovely, lovely people, but they aren't. They. They, you know, you can talk about levels and you can talk about high functioning Asperger's or whatever. The fact is, is that they're nothing like me. Nothing like me and nothing like the people I know. But when I'm watching this program, there are things that they do that I obviously do do because they are autistic and I'm autistic and I do do the things that they do. And I become hyper aware of it. Like when I, when, when I'm. Then, then suddenly I'm like, oh, I'm like those people. And then I'm thinking like that I'm talking like them. And this is the whole idea of the rumination because then I'm like, well, is that how other people perceive me when, when I go into talking about my special interest, when I'm hyper focused, when I just ramble on as I'm doing right now? Are people just going, oh my God. Well, that's a lot of, that's a lot of autism right there.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah, I, yeah, I had a meltdown playing golf the other day and I felt so self conscious afterwards because I'd not really been like properly unmasked in front of these guys. And then afterwards, genuinely, my brain, I was like, they could just think I'm a Timmy and they're not going to want to hang out with me anymore. That's the honest truth, dude.

[Jordan James]

I know, I know it sucks, but

[Simon Scott]

one of the things that really helped with that is seeking clarification from people and actually talking to them and feeling brave enough to sort of do it. Like, do you find this, do you like with the situation with your sister, with the text, like, it obviously felt easier when you turned to Silver and went, can you read it? What am I getting from this? That's making me feel like this. Like that obviously helped.

[Jordan James]

Yeah, I think it Was, it was good. And also it worries me as well because I, I would love to say, oh, I learned a lesson that day. You know, I'm, I'm, I'm. Next time I'm, I receive a message or next time somebody says something to me or next time something happens, I'm going to, you know, try and see the positive in everything. But I, I, it, my brain doesn't work like that. It's, it's day to day and I, I think the only thing that I can keep doing is I can just keep trying. Because if I don't keep trying to make myself healthy in my head, if I stop trying, then I'm going to go down a very, very dark path and I can't, I can't go there again. Like I lived in that very, very dark path. Even when, you know, everything in my life seemed lovely. I got depression and I've always felt like I'm teetering on the edge of, of depression. Like I, I, it's like somewhere, always somewhere in the back of my mind

[Simon Scott]

fall into as well. To go back. Yeah, it sucks how easy it is to slide back into it.

[Jordan James]

Oh, oh, absolutely. And then I think that's, that's why I, you know, I just, I just have to keep working on it in, in exactly the same way as, you know, with, with my back. I know that I have to keep moving. I can't sit in the same place for too long. It's going to stiffen up, it's going to start hurting. So I have to get up and I have to move around and I have to keep on working on it. I have to keep going to the gym, I have to keep doing my exercises. I have to keep doing things to keep myself healthy. Whether it's eating, whether it's exercise or whether it's meditation, mindfulness, going for walks, I just have to keep doing it. And it, it sounds like a lot, but that's being neurodivergent. You know, we are, we are constantly on hyper alert and it's, it's very tiring, it's very stressful. So you have to look after yourself.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah, you've got to have self compassion. And honestly the big tool that I've learned is knowing what regulates me and that's like deep breaths, being barefoot outside, being in the sunshine. All things that I know really regulate me and I have to lean on that. And it's difficult when, you know, that strikes and it's all sort of like really encompassing and really difficult and it's really Hard to practice self compassion and setting boundaries with yourself. Like what you were describing of, you know, I imagine if you, if I imagined my brain is like a village with all these different houses of my thoughts and feelings. There's like, there's like three or four haunted houses on that in that village. And sometimes they come out, the people that live inside it come out for a walk and I can't kill them. They are a part of me. And I've said many times on this, this show, the worst bully that I have ever had is me. And if I can beat him, I can take on anybody. And it's sort of having that self compassion and knowing that you don't deserve to feel like this all the time and knowing what helps it. Like you said this morning, you went out in nature, you're only meant to be there an hour and you went, fuck it, I'm going to be there for three. And it's obviously done you a lot of good. And like me having my dog that we adopted Nana has really helped regulate me because I've got all of these thoughts and feelings running through my head and it can be anything from like, oh, I think I might have upset that person to oh my God, I'm gonna lose my job because I didn't reply to an email within three hours. And my body responds as if a lion has just walked into the room. I can't control that chemical reaction that happens. I can't control the cortisol that explodes and the adrenaline that comes out and the fact that I have to stim and I start ticking. But being able to step outside and sit in the sunshine with my dog sat on my feet for five minutes and that dog looks up at me and doesn't judge me. It just loves me unconditionally, that really helps. It really, really helps. Like, having a support animal for me has been a game changer with my mental health because I now have an excuse to go out for walk in nature. Somebody who's been such a recluse and ostracized himself because he was like, oh, it's easier to not have anybody than to deal with all of this, these feelings and this rumination.

[Jordan James]

Oh God, I know how that feels.

[Simon Scott]

I was like, yeah, I can't cope with talking to people and dealing with rejection. So it's easy to have nobody. And having a dog has really helped with that because I've got a reason to go outside. I've got a reason to be present in nature. Like when I'm walking her, I feel so alive. Like just sort of walking in the sunshine and hearing like it's, it's crazy, dude. When you can separate yourself, you see so much more. It's like suddenly you start seeing birds and you start hearing them and you start feeling the, the wind hit your face and how the sunshine makes you feel when you close your eyes and look up at the sun. And it's about reconnecting to the present and not being stuck in the past. For me, that's the thing that's really, really helped me and breath work, like the work that I've done with Ashley Dupuis has so helped me. And it's literally just right now after we've recorded this, I'm going to go and sit outside in the garden with no shoes on and just let my feet hit the grass and let the sunshine hit my face and I'm going to have a coffee and I'm not going to beat myself up for having that for five minutes.

[Jordan James]

Exactly. That's, that's the key is just be kind to yourself because, you know, we, we can't depend on others to be kind to us.

[Simon Scott]

So true.

[Jordan James]

You know, we, we hope that they will be, but then we, we have to be kind to ourselves and we have to be kind to others. And you know, and I think it's really easy when you're disabled socially especially to become very resentful of the world, very resentful of people and bitter because, you know, we, we don't get treated nicely. So I think it's really, it's really easy for us to then see everything in that negative light. Just like I would was seeing that message. You know, we, we, we see the world and we only pick out those negative things. And I think that, you know, in order to have self care, we need to, we need to look at the world and try and just see the positives. And if you're listening, that's, that is how you, you can stop being in this negative mindset, is there will be negativity, but if you can try and put that to the side and just concentrate on the positivity that it will, it will change your perspective and it will make you a happier person.

[Simon Scott]

And a bit of advice that I would add on top of that as well is no matter how much you fight it, this will happen again. And learning and understanding that this is just part of the lived experience and when this shit happens, accept it and welcome it in, in a way and just go, yeah, I'm gonna feel like this for an hour and yeah. I'm gonna feel really tired afterwards, but I'm gonna make sure that when I'm stopping feeling like this, I'm actually nice to myself and look after myself. And I said the phrase, you know, the worst bully I've ever had was me. And now I'm trying to be the best friend that I've ever had to me. And that's what I'm trying to do. And just be kind to myself and know that there isn't a cure for this. This is the brain that I have been born into and the one that I will have until I'm. I wander off this mortal coil. And I'm gonna have to live with these demons. They're not gonna go anywhere. There's no exorcism to. To get rid of them. My trauma is my trauma. But if I understand that it's gonna come, then it's easier when it does.

[Jordan James]

Yeah. Preparation.

[Simon Scott]

Yep.

[Jordan James]

All right. That was a good episode. I enjoyed that. Nice to have you back.

[Simon Scott]

Thanks, man. Yeah, no, it was really n. It. That's. It's funny. I was saying to Caris, that's the first episode of this entire show that I haven't been in other than the first minute. Mad that in it over 100, like, 110 episodes. And that was the first one that I was like, hello, I'm not in it. And the amount of times where I've been super tired and burnt out and. And still done it, and that's. It took me 109 episodes to go. I need a break.

[Jordan James]

Well, glad to have you back.

[Simon Scott]

Thanks, man. I think I needed it, but, yeah, no. Thank you so much for listening, everybody. There will be no Hot Topic this week. Still in the process of moving and shaking things around, but I promise it will be back soon. I'm all out of spoons, dude. Thanks so much for listening. Bye.

[Jordan James]

I need the toilet. Oh, my God. Why is it talking?

[Simon Scott]

I'm trying to stop. I can't stop.

[Jordan James]

Just shut up.

[Simon Scott]

Bye. Thanks for tuning in to the Neurodivergent Experience. We hope today's episode sparks something for you. Whether it's a new idea, a bit of validation, or just a moment of connection, Remember, new episodes are every week, so be sure to join us for the next one for more conversations and insights into the neurodivers Neurodivergent Experience. If you've enjoyed this podcast, help us grow. You can do that by rating and reviewing this show. Your support makes a huge difference in helping us reach more people who could benefit from these conversations. You can connect with us on social media, find us on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok. Just search for the neurodivergent experience. Thank you again for listening and until next time, take care care of yourself. You're not alone in this journey. The Scouting reports end Unlock the savings at Boost Mobile, get Unlimited Wireless for $25 a month forever and keep your phone. It's a veteran move. Unlock the Savings@Boost Mobile.com Unlock $25 forever requires customers to remain active on Boost Mobile Unlimited Wireless plan. For offer details, visit boost mobile.com Acast powers the world's Best Podcasts Here's a show that we recommend.

[Podcast Advertiser/Host (Various Ads)]

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[Simon Scott]

[e-mail] Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.