← The Neurodivergent Experience
The Neurodivergent Experience
Perimenopause & Neurodivergence: Understanding the Hidden Impact
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- [00:00]
Ashley Dupuis
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- [00:04]
Jordan James
Wait, we're going on tour?
- [00:05]
Ashley Dupuis
We're delivering and setting up customers phones. It's not a tour.
- [00:08]
Jordan James
Not with that attitude.
- [00:09]
Ashley Dupuis
Introducing store to door Switch and get a new device with expert setup and delivery. Delivery available for select devices purchased@boostmobile.com
- [00:17]
Simon Scott
Acast powers the world's best podcasts Here's a show that we recommend.
- [00:24]
Molly Graham
A lot of work advice sounds good in theory, but falls apart when you actually try to use it. I'm on a mission to change that. I'm Molly Graham, a company builder and the new host of Work Life, a podcast from ted. I've spent my career inside fast growing companies and one thing I know for sure is that work is messy. In this new season, I'm excited to share my conversations with founders, operators and creatives about the real story behind their shiniest successes. The lessons that no one ever posts on LinkedIn. Listen now on Work life. Wherever you get your podcasts,
- [01:00]
Simon Scott
Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.
- [01:16]
Jordan James
Welcome to the Neurodivergent Experience Podcast. A podcast where we share the lived experiences of neurodivergent people to help create a better understanding for our community.
- [01:28]
Simon Scott
Join us every week as we bring you honest, raw and inspiring conversations with specialists, advocates and individuals who know exactly what it's like to live the neurodivergent experience.
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Jordan James
I'm Jordan James, a neurodivergent specialist, father of neurodivergent children, husband to a neurodivergent wife, and author of the Autistic Experience. And I'm joined by my best friend.
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Ashley Dupuis
Friend.
- [01:52]
Simon Scott
I'm Simon Scott. I'm an autistic ADHD broadcaster, actor and advocate. Join us as we journey into unraveling the neurodivergent experience.
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Jordan James
Hello.
- [02:05]
Simon Scott
Hello.
- [02:06]
Jordan James
Welcome back, everyone. This is a different type of episode that we're doing today. We're doing an episode on Perimenopause. Um, sorry to get straight into it, but I feel like we need to because it's a very important issue and I don't want to waste time with it. Uh, we've got Ashley here and we do have. Hello, Ashley. And we do have Scotty. But you've got to go, don't you, Scotty?
- [02:34]
Simon Scott
Yeah. Hi everybody. Taking my own advice this week, I am absolutely wiped. I had a really fun social weekend during the Masters and had friends around, but I've also been dealing with a bit of underlying pain. I've had an eds flare up in my feet and my legs. And it's also a really important week with the Autistic Culture Podcast Network because all of the amazing creators are delivering their shows. So I'm not gonna be present during this episode. It's gonna be an Ashley and Jordan special. But I just wanted to let everybody know why I'm not here. And I'm taking the advice that I give on the show, which is rest is survival, and it's very important, and you need to know when to take a break, and that's what I'm doing. So have a wonderful episode, everybody, and have a wonderful week, and I will see you in the next one.
- [03:21]
Jordan James
Love you, Scotty.
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Simon Scott
Yeah, I love you too, guys. Have a. Have a great episode and looking forward to editing it and listening to it and just being a listener for once. So have a great time, guys.
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Ashley Dupuis
Thanks. Thanks.
- [03:35]
Jordan James
Yeah, I was gonna say. Wow. Wow. Scotty is gone for one second and now she's taken over. I see. I see. That's right. Now you. You carry on. I'll just sit back.
- [03:50]
Ashley Dupuis
There was a moment of quiet, and I didn'. I should feel it. So, you know, you go ahead.
- [03:54]
Jordan James
I have to admit, a moment with. Of quiet with me around is. Is rare, let's say, but there will be lots of moments of quiet because this is about perimenopause, and I am a man, and I'm not going to go through this. I am here, and I wanted to do this episode one, because I think it's a really, really important issue that is not. It's just not talked enough about. It's just not. No, they're. You know, people will talk about a lot. A lot of issues. I think perimenopause, especially with neurodivergent women, it just. It just gets sidelined, and a lot of the symptoms end up, you know, being overlooked because they're very similar to ADHD symptoms. And, you know, and. And I. And I see my wife, Sylvia. She is almost 48. I know she looks like 30, but she is 48. And this. This is. This is starting with her, you know. You know, she is feeling the effects of it. She's. She has given me permission to talk about her because I wouldn't without that. But she's definitely feeling what she thinks is the symptoms of perimenopause. And I personally wanted to know as much about it so I can be prepared, so I can support her through it, because I. I read quite a bit, and it just. It's so awful. It's so awful. And then adding neurodivergent sort of not symptoms, but behaviors and struggles and disabilities on top of perimenopause, as is a recipe for disaster. So I'm. I just want to be there for her as much as I possibly can. And obviously you are my teacher in all ways of being a better person and centering myself. And I thought, well, I don't think there is a better person on this planet to guide me into perimenopause with my wife than you.
- [06:14]
Ashley Dupuis
Thank you. What a lovely thing to say and what a lovely way to frame this. So I think what you've said is so important here. This isn't just for our women listeners who are either going through it or about to go through it or have just been through it, but also the, you know, the men supporting these women, everybody, the children whose mother is going through this. This is a really important episode for everyone to hear. Whether you're going through it or supporting someone or have a loved one that is going through it. And like with all things, it shows up in many different shapes and sizes. Shows up in different ages as well. I went through a very early menopause and so, you know, one size doesn't fit all, as so many things in life are exactly, exactly that. So too is menopause. Some people, Jordan, just sail through it. Don't have anything happen. I do think that's quite rare. But that does happen. Yeah. And perimenopause, as. As it. As it sounds, this is. It is before you get to menopause, and it's quite a long journey. Menopause itself is a long journey. And the perimenopause journey is quite a long journey. It can last up to 8 to 10 years. Perimenopause.
- [07:47]
Jordan James
I always feel that women have got the, the short end of the stick when it comes to just their bodies.
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Ashley Dupuis
Yeah.
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Jordan James
Because, you know, women just, you know, you, you have to deal with your, you know, hormones and then the period all your life when it comes to, like, if you, if you decide to have children, it's. It's all on the woman to do everything. The man just like, plum. And then. And then like, oh, you know, I'm done now. And then just. And then the woman has to go through, like, nine months of pregnancy and then you've got all the periods every month and probably very unsupportive men a lot of the time. And, you know, it's, it's just so hard for women. And then women, Women finally get rid of the, the, The Period. They've got to go through perimenopause and then menopause, and then they're old or older, and it's like, did you have a good life? And this is my way of looking at it is the fact that I love Sylvia so much that I, I, I just want her to have the best life possible.
- [08:59]
Ashley Dupuis
Yeah.
- [09:00]
Jordan James
Even with all these things she has to deal with. So I'm just going to make it as, as easy as I possibly can for her.
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Ashley Dupuis
Brilliant. Brilliant. And one bit of good news for Sylvia, for me, for everyone out there experiencing menopause or who's going to experience menopause. From what I have read, once you get through menopause, so you've been through perimenopause, you get through menopause. Once you're after post menopause, apparently you feel amazing. You just feel like the best you've ever felt in your life. So we just need to get through
- [09:32]
Jordan James
the need to get through it.
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Ashley Dupuis
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's such a. I think what would be really helpful is to first explain what's going on with hormones. If I can give a really good metaphor that I learned from a naturopathic doctor about. If you think of that, you have a pot of gold each day, okay. And with this pot of gold, you have to make all of your hormones. So that means your stress hormones, insulin, that's a hormone as well. Your sex hormones, all of your hormones are made from this pot of gold. And so the first thing that gets access to the pot of gold are the stress hormones. So that's cortisol and adrenaline. So, and then the next thing that, that has access is the insulin. So our blood sugar. And then, and then once, once you've got that, well, what's left in the pot of gold to make your, your sex hormones, you know, your, your estrogen and progesterone. This is why excess stress levels, which can lead to craving sugary things, you know, before you know it, your pot of gold is empty because life is just very, very stressful and nutrition is kind of taking a backseat. We're leading such busy lives. And of course, women who are dealing with perimenopause are also dealing with still raising children, or maybe they've got children that are heading off to university. That's quite stressful. Aging parents as well. So you've got this time in your life where things are just really building up just in terms of overall life stresses. So that pot of gold is really getting used up. And then of course, there are other. There are other avenues in terms of your sleep starts to get affected. So suddenly everything is really starting to get very, very chaotic. And it just goes to show you, you know, when I started to go through perimenopause, I didn't realize I was in perimenopause. And this is so often the case when we're neurodivergent. We're already dealing with, you know, a more highly activated nervous system, no matter what our age. And so if life stresses come on, you think, well, this is just natural life stress. And you don't realize you're actually in perimenopause, which means you need to be looking after your stress levels even more so that you can make sure that you can try and get your hormones to be as. As healthy as possible. But so often the symptoms of perimenopause mimic so many other things, like autistic burnout, you know, poor sleep, insomnia, irritability, anxiety, being really emotional. All of these things can also be symptoms for so many other things. And I think that's what was going on with me when everything started to fall apart with my health. Back in 2019, I was getting diagnosed with Ellis Danlos syndrome and fibromyalgia. Then suddenly I find out I'm also in menopause. And I'm like, well, what's causing the insomnia? Is it this. Is it that. This is what so often happens? Because also changes. Changes in our hormones can bring about chronic illness as well. So a lot of women who experience chronic illness like fibromyalgia or Ellis Danlos, they really start to see the symptoms once they hit this perimenopause stage.
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Jordan James
Oh, right, yeah. So they just sort of. You might experience some symptoms of those problems, but then obviously it's heightened when you're going through that stage.
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Ashley Dupuis
Yes, exactly. Like. Like with the Ellis Danlos, I was always having problems with dislocations. But once I started to go through. Well, I mean, I was going through menopause once I got diagnosed, that's when things really just started to completely go haywire with my health. And so it was. It shone a light on all of the other things that. That. That were happening. But even my doctor couldn't tell me, you know, I was dealing with really bad insomnia. And I was like, well, is this menopause or is this Ellis Danlos or is this the fibromyalgia? What is it?
- [14:36]
Jordan James
I think that's. That's a very good point you're making. Is that like from. I was. I've been watching a lot of videos and I've been reading a lot of things. And so many times, doctors, especially male doctors, they don't understand about perimenopause. They don't recognize the signs of it. And you're like, it's 20, 26. It's a huge thing. It's not like every now and again a woman's gonna go through this. It's not rare. Every woman is gonna go through this.
- [15:08]
Ashley Dupuis
Yes.
- [15:09]
Jordan James
Even like, it's either gonna be really bad or it's gonna be really okay. There's so many different things, levels of it, but essentially this is a natural thing that every single woman is going to go through. You'd think that doctors would be like, understanding and knowledgeable about this, but apparently they are not. And that is. And especially, again, I keep saying, especially when it comes to being neurodivergent.
- [15:37]
Ashley Dupuis
Yeah.
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Jordan James
When you just get gaslit the out of all the time. Which is why I would say to any single woman listening, who is going to go through this or who thinks they're going to go through this, request a female doctor. Do not request a male doctor. I mean, I'm sure there's male doctors that are understanding of this. I'm sure there are. But just to make sure, go and see a female doctor. Because I think that, that, that is going to be the person who's going to understand the best.
- [16:09]
Ashley Dupuis
Yes, yes. And yeah, I mean, some people won't have a choice in that matter. And if that's the case, then, you know, at least getting a full hormone blood work done to see where you are. And then look at, you know, before we started recording Jordan, you were telling me about how you got into your circle of control on your nature walk the other the other day. This is a really great moment to remind everybody about the circle of control. Because you feel so out of control in this time. You feel like so much that used to be in your control is now out of your control. So the best way to start helping yourself is focusing on these things that are in your control. A is stress management. I know that's a big one. You know, that's because we've got stressful lives. The priority needs to be on reducing stress, balancing your blood sugar, improving your sleep, improving your gut health and your nutrition. But all of these are really difficult when you have. Your energy is just wiped out. So that's also an issue. So this is where, you know, accept any and all offers of help from other people and definitely just really simplify your life as much as possible. It's the same advice I would give to somebody going through autistic burnout is simplify your life as much as possible. Get your, get your blood work done. And I am a big fan of hrt. That's a very personal choice for, for everyone out there. There are natural supplements that can be very, very helpful, but you definitely need to make sure that you are working with either a naturopathic doctor or a gp, a professional, because it's not a one size fits all when it comes to natural supplements. So you really, you don't want to be, you don't want to treat yourself like a guinea pig. You really want to get the right advice there. There are some good helpful supplements like Ashwagandha is an adaptogen and it helps to reduce the amount of stress hormones that's generally safe. But again, do check with a medical professional before you start trying any of these things.
- [18:51]
Jordan James
Yeah, right, let's, let's have a little break and when we come back we can go deeper into the specific symptoms and talk about the hrt
- [19:04]
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- [19:38]
Ashley Dupuis
hi everyone, it's Ashley Dupuis, the in house therapist here on the neurodivergent experience and and host of Mindful Mondays. And if you've been listening to these podcasts and thinking, gosh, I'd love to explore this work more deeply, I wanted to let you know about a special final opportunity to work with me one to one. So I'm gradually bringing my regular one to one practice to a close so that I can focus more on group work and recordings and other new exciting projects. But before I do, I'm taking on a small final round of one to one clients for a six session journey running from May to the end of July. So if this work has been resonating and you feel called to work with me Directly. Now is your last chance to do so, and I'd love to hear from you. You can register your interest by emailing me at integrativeiomail.com or find out more at integrativeiom.co.uk.
- [20:45]
Jordan James
Hello and welcome back to the neurodivergent Experience. That's the first time that I've ever done that and it's really, really weird.
- [20:54]
Ashley Dupuis
But you did it so well. You did it so well.
- [20:57]
Jordan James
The phone voice. Well, I, I. Looking at research that I did. It's a perimenopause. The transition before menopause, often in women in their 40s, involves hormonal fluctuations causing irregular periods, hot flushes, night sweats, brain fog, mood changes, insomnia and vaginal dryness. Symptoms could last four to ten years. Jesus. And vary often, including weight gain, anxiety and low libido. Fun key perimenopause symptoms to look out for period changes. Cycles may become irregular, shorter, longer, heavier or lighter. So it's just. Good luck with that. My dyslexia is kicking in. Vasomoto. Vasomoto. My God, I hate vasomotor symptoms. Hot flashes, sudden heat in face, neck, chest and light sweats. That sounds delightful, doesn't it? Sleep disruption, insomnia, often caused by night sweats. Mood changes, increased irritability, anxiety, mood swings or depression. Cognitive changes, which is brain fog, memory lapses and reduced concentration. Adhd, physical changes, vaginal dryness, discomfort during sex, reduced libido, weight gain, joint pain, skin changes and headaches. Other symptoms may include fatigue, palpitations, digestive issues and dry mouth or eyes. This sounds terrible and I'm trying to be light hearted because I'm like my, my best friend in the whole world is going to go through this. And that. That scares me for her. Yeah, yeah, that scares me for her.
- [22:46]
Ashley Dupuis
And what seems even more cruel, and this is very anecdotal, so this, just take this with a grain of salt. From what I have experienced myself and other people, it seems to be if you are someone that has had difficult periods for most of your life, you will also likely have a difficult menopause.
- [23:07]
Jordan James
Oh, man.
- [23:08]
Ashley Dupuis
Yeah, so. But again, that is, that is very anecdotal. So, you know, it won't always be the case. You could have had really easy periods in a difficult menopause or really bad periods and really easy one. But, um, and I think a big one. What can really interfere with knowing whether or not you're in perimenopause is. And this, I think was going on for me is that I was, I was on the pill. I had been on the pill for a very long time and I really liked being on the pill. I liked what it did for my skin and it made my, my periods very regular and very reduced. And then I got to a point where I found out you could usually with the, with a contraceptive pill, you take a week off and that causes you to then have a period and then you start again. But you are some, some women out there. And I started to do this. You can get rid of that week off and just take it continually. And so, and that means you never get a period. And so I thought, well, that sounds great. And I asked my GP if I could do that and they were like, yeah, go ahead. Again, not realizing I was in perimenopause. And I just thought, you know what? The last thing I need is a period. I'm just going to take this continuously. But that, you know, there's no free lunch, as they say. I think that also was not really not a good idea for my, for my system. And the continued stress in my life, I didn't realize was perimenopause because I couldn't, because I wasn't getting a period. So I didn't have that frame of reference. So just, just be careful out there. If you're in your 30s and you're experimenting with taking your contraceptive pill and not taking that week off and you're taking it continuously so you don't have a period. Some people also take an injection, a contraceptive injection, which again, for a lot of people just completely gets rid of their period. So it's a really. Then you don't. Because you're right, that is the real classic sign of something, something is changing in my, in my cycle. But if you don't have a period due to other, other means, then that's going to be a big one for you to not know what's going on with your natural cycle. So just be aware of that.
- [25:30]
Jordan James
Let's talk about management and tips. You know, you were, you were brushed upon that just before the break. Like, you know, like lifestyle changes, I think is always the, the first one to go. But before you have any treatment or anything like that, it's, you know, and, and this is what Sylvia's, you know, actively starting now because just, just quickly out of the, the, the symptoms. Without going into too many details again, she has given me permission to share this, but I'm not going to share all of it. It's, it's, it's difficult because she does have the brain fog and. And memory lapses, reduced concentration because she does have adhd, but she is on methylphenidate. She is on. She was on 18 milligrams, then she moved up to 27 milligrams, and now she's thinking maybe she needs to go to 36 milligrams, which is what I'm on. And I'm a big bloke and I'm. I'm a lot heavier than she is. 36 for me is. Is. Is perfect. But I think she wants to up the dose to help deal with all of these symptoms because she's having, like, double adhd. So she wants to get, like, a higher dose to. To help because she's finding that even on the. The methylphenidate, she's. She's still having so many of these symptoms, which, you know, she. She just got diagnosed with ADHD a few years ago just to get. And then. And they spent a year trying to get the methylphenidate, and then she got the methylphenidate and she was like, oh, my God, this is wonderful. My. And then a couple of years later, she's like, oh, this isn't working anymore. And it's like, oh, for God's sake.
- [27:14]
Ashley Dupuis
It's.
- [27:15]
Jordan James
Oh, it is, it is. I'm. I'm trying to be as helpful as possible, but it's. It's. You know, it's hard. It's hard because I'm like, do you remember that thing? And she's like, what thing? I'm like, the thing that I told you, like, 10 seconds ago. And she's like, I don't. What. Who. Who are you? Yeah, yeah. So also, the irritability when she's irritable.
- [27:39]
Ashley Dupuis
Yeah.
- [27:39]
Jordan James
I can't pronounce that word. Irritability. I've made up that word. Yeah, it is. That's hard for me to deal with.
- [27:50]
Ashley Dupuis
Yeah.
- [27:52]
Jordan James
Because normally Sylvia is like the calm in my storm, you know, And I've now got to be the calm for her storm. And that's something that, you know, it's. It's a shift in our relationship, and it's something that I'm working on, which is great that I can find my center of control, because it's really important to find the. The circle in my control, not just because of me, but because everyone else who's in my vicinity, and especially for Sylvia. So the calmer I am, the more chilled out I am, the better it is for her. So when she does, you know, snap at me, which she she has been. I. I very calmly say, babe, you know, you don't need to say it like that. And she'll be like, oh, sorry, I didn't mean to. I said, no, no, you do not need to apologize. I'm just pointing it out just to make you aware of it. Now, I don't know if that is the right thing, but at the same time, I'm not gonna get annoyed at her. But at the same time, I'm like, oh, you don't need to do that. She's like, So, yeah, I mean, that's definitely something I've got to deal with. But I know it's a lot worse for her.
- [29:12]
Ashley Dupuis
Well, it's so difficult for both of you. I was watching a relationship exper. I think her name is Esther Perez. And it was just a clip, and it was really quite interesting. She said, you know, I've been married to three different people, but I've only been married to one person. And she'd been married for, you know, like, 35 years. And so what she meant was, you know, she's been. You know, that her husband has changed over the years, just as she has changed. And we do change. But it feels very. When a. When you're going through it yourself, you're like, who is this person? I don't even know who this person is. Meaning your own self. So of course, your partner is also going to feel like, who is this? Who is this person? Not every time, but in certain moments here and there. And so what's really important is recognizing that this is a moment of in time where things aren't the status quo. And it's so brilliant that the two of you have such a wonderful connection. And it's not easy for couples going through this because of the exact thing that you've just mentioned. What really scared me one day, because I'm not. I. I don't normally have a problem with my temper. I'm not normally. You know, I get quite emotional very easily my whole life. But I've never been a really, like, angry person. I will never forget. This was right before I was about to get diagnosed with everything. I was just. I was driving to a massage. Oh, the irony. I was on my way. Driving to a massage to relax. I'm gonna relax, damn it. And I was behind somebody who was going slow. Okay, this is not the end of the world. I don't even think I was running late, but I got behind somebody who was going slow. And I just. Jordan, when I tell you I was this close to Intentionally just running into the back of this person. I was so ready to just, just.
- [31:31]
Jordan James
Yep, I know that feeling.
- [31:35]
Ashley Dupuis
That scared the crap out of me. I've never had that before. And I was like, who is this? So the hormones are running the show. They really are running the show. And when we have a reduction in estrogen and an increase in our stress hormones, you will be acting like a very different person and that will be very uncomfortable for your loved ones. But we're all in this together and like with any difficulty time and any relationship, communication is everything. It's everything. So it's really wonderful the example that you gave of, you know, communicating with Sylvia of like, well, you know, and trying to do it in as compassionate a way as you can, as grounded as possible, trying to be as present as possible and trying to communicate. A really great question to ask somebody who's in a really moment is what do you need right now? And a lot of times they won't even be able to answer it. But just having that, it makes you stop. It makes you try and think, okay, what do I need right now? And it makes you feel supported. So even if nothing comes of that question, because a lot of times it will be, I don't know, I don't know what I need. But just asking the question is really, really good. It shows that you care, it shows that you're ready to take whatever reply might come your way and just keeping that communication going as often as possible, you know, to the women who are going through this, try and explain as well as you can to your partner about how you're feeling and what would help just certain day to day things. Try and come to brainstorm together about how you can make amendments to your life to make this time a bit easier. And you know, it's going to look different for every situation. But yeah, I think communication and simplification are the two biggest things you could do because the simpler your life is, the, the less stressful it's going to be.
- [34:03]
Jordan James
Yeah. Because newsflash everyone. A partnership means a partnership. You have to be partners. You have to meet 5050. And you know, that, that whole thing, you know, when you get married or even if you don't get married, but the whole marriage thing of like, you know, through sickness and in health, like that, that doesn't, that's not just the woman looking after the man, as a lot of men seem to think that, oh, I'm bad, so you need to wipe my nose because it says so. It's a, it's a 50, 50 thing, people. And when, when a woman is going through perimenopause or even just having her period, it is not a 50, 50 thing. It is an 80, 20 in favor of the woman. You must, you must be 80% looking after her. She's 20%, you know, like, oh, you, you exist and I will acknowledge you. But that is literally how it has to be because like they're the ones that are going through it. And I, you know, I've, I've got a lot of health issues and things like that and Sylvie does help me. But I do feel like when men have health issues they just expect everyone to drop everything and be like, oh, I hope you're okay. And when a woman is on a period every single month, a man's like, oh, does that mean we can't have sex? And I'm like, no, that means that she's going like she's losing a lot of blood, dude. Like there's a lot of that, you know, she's going to be very tired, very irritable, in a lot of pain, having cramps, like, oh my God. If you are a man and you have a partner or if you intend on having a partner, find out about periods, find out about perimenopause, find out about these things and try and see it from their perspective. It's called empathy. Apparently we're not really good at it, but I'm freaking trying. But yeah, oh my God, like that, that is like, it's like the minimum that you should do as, as a partner. It's just like, you know, understand the fact that, that women go through this like terrible thing and it's not about you sir, it's about her and it just be about her for that period of time. Literally, period. But yeah, like let's have a quick break and then we come back and we will get on to management and tips because we ADHD the hell out of that.
- [36:40]
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- [36:55]
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- [37:35]
Jordan James
Hello and welcome back to the neurodivergent Experience. We are talking about perimenopause with Ashley.
- [37:42]
Ashley Dupuis
Hello.
- [37:43]
Jordan James
So management and tips. So it's like lifestyle. In my notes, I've got regular exercise, healthy diet, stress reduction, which again, men, you help with that example. Yoga, meditation. Obviously that's, you know, that's the key.
- [38:05]
Ashley Dupuis
Yes.
- [38:07]
Jordan James
Treatments, you know, you can move on to hormone replacement therapy, hrt, which Sylvia is looking into. You know, she's doing her research and she's a little bit worried about it, which I'm going to talk to you about in a second. And that, that is mostly for severe symptoms. That's like, when it really hits its peak. Use apps or calendars to track irregular bleeding as advised by the Menopause Society. See, that's really interesting because this was Sylvia's first sign of. It was suddenly she was just getting no periods. Now I've, I've, I've, I've been fixed, you know, like, you know, I should have been two, two. Two kids was enough. I don't think anyone needs any more of, of my DNA anywhere. But yeah, I think I was 26 when I had a vasectomy. Because again, that was the discussion was, does Sylvia have her tubes tied and have serious surgery or do I get my nuts snapped? And I went, obviously I do because, like, why would I make her go through that? Ridiculous.
- [39:21]
Ashley Dupuis
Very kind of.
- [39:22]
Jordan James
I don't even think it is. I honestly, I don't even think, I don't look at it like that. I look at it like it's, it's like logical.
- [39:30]
Ashley Dupuis
Yeah.
- [39:31]
Jordan James
So I don't think of it as being kind. I think like, that is what makes sense. My one's like super easy, her one super hard. Why would I,
- [39:40]
Ashley Dupuis
like.
- [39:41]
Jordan James
No, I don't want to. Oh, shut up. But anyway, so I did that and so when Sylvia's missing her period, we weren't like, oh, my God, are you pregnant? Because, you know, that was never in, in on the, on the table, as it were. Yeah. So obviously she was looking into it and then she would have. She had no period for ages and then suddenly she just got a period and it lasted for so long.
- [40:08]
Ashley Dupuis
Yeah,
- [40:10]
Jordan James
that was awful for her. She was so tired all the time. But yeah, that was the first sign. So what was the first sign for you?
- [40:22]
Ashley Dupuis
Well, it's a tough one again, because I think, well, my insomnia started really, really looking back at it, now that I know that I was going. I think I started perimenopause in my early 30s, basically. And that's when the insomnia came in. And because I was. I had heard about perimenopause at that point, but it just was low on the list of anything on my radar, really. And so I just. Yeah, I just didn't know why I wasn't sleeping. And that led to a lot more stress again, because I was on the pill. My periods weren't giving me the clue because the pill keeps your periods regular. And then I was at a point where I was taking it continuously, so I didn't get a period. But that was down to the pill. So I didn't. So there's all sorts of different. You know, a lot of people get anxiety. Acne, that was another one for me. I never. I never had acne as a teenager. I thankfully didn't have to go through that. But suddenly I was like, oh, my God. It wasn't just like a couple of pimples. It was like spoils.
- [41:36]
Jordan James
Also had that. She's a skin special specialist. Like, yeah, that was what her training was in beauty before she became a dental nurse. And all of a sudden she was just getting these spots and rashes and stuff. And, yeah, she was like, whoa, I've never been spotty before.
- [41:55]
Ashley Dupuis
Yeah, all of these things. And just a real, sort of. All of my nervous system was absolutely shot from not sleeping. And at this point, I was so tired from not sleeping that I wasn't eating well either. So this is what's so difficult is people know the right things they should be doing. They know they need to reduce their stress levels and eat better and exercise more, but there's zero energy to do it.
- [42:22]
Jordan James
And chocolate tastes so good. It tastes so good.
- [42:27]
Ashley Dupuis
I know. And a little bit of dark chocolate is actually good for us. So you can switch to dark chocolate and have a little bit of that and you can get some of the health benefits.
- [42:36]
Jordan James
When. When. When I'm eating like 3 tons of dark chocolate and Sylvia is like, what's that? I was. Ashley told me to. She said a little bit. And in my brain, that's at least a kilo.
- [42:47]
Ashley Dupuis
Well, what's so good? What's so good about. About the advice of what to do is that it's this. It really is basically the same advice that I would Give to anybody going through autistic burnout or any sort of nervous system dysregulation or anxiety. Stress is. Focus on. Learn all about your nervous system. Learn all about how to rest your nervous system properly, yoga, nidra, meditation, and prioritize regulation that is going to. That will start to help make your sleep better, which will help make it easier to make better choices with your food. I mean, you know, this anger that comes from these hormonal changes, you know, that puts us right in that fear center of our brain. Our threat detection goes up. We're not making really the best choices for ourselves. So really, my best advice is focus on regulating your nervous system. That will help everything. It will help everything.
- [44:02]
Jordan James
What? Oh, you were like, oh, there's another gap. And then you made the gap, and then I'm. Now I'm supposed to fill it. I'm like, oh, dear. This is where Scotty comes in with, like, sensible questions. But he did send me a list of questions, and this is actually a really, really interesting one, and I think I'm just gonna do this. Topic one is. It's just a word that he's used in this question that I thought was really interesting is that a lot of women obviously are masking. Neurodivergent women in general, very, very masking. Especially undiagnosed neurodivergent women who are going to go through this. Is it. Is it possible that they. They will just. Not that they'll be going through this and they'll dismiss it because they're just like, oh, no, no, no. It's. You know, they almost gaslight themselves into going, oh, I can't be going through this, or this must be something else. And also. And this, like you said in your 30s, you're not even thinking about perimenopause. This is why I think we need more about it. People need to know more about it.
- [45:19]
Ashley Dupuis
Yes, yes.
- [45:20]
Jordan James
You know, I think that, you know, when women mask their way through life, especially like I said in with neurodivergent women, would. Would you say they have. Would have a tendency to mask their own symptoms?
- [45:35]
Ashley Dupuis
Absolutely. Absolutely. And, you know, I. I was just talking about that on. On my episode of Mindful Mondays this week, episode 30, where I talk from mask to map, where. Yeah, I just thought when everything was falling apart for me, I just thought, oh, it's my own fault. I just need to try harder. I need to try harder. So, yeah, you do end up gaslighting yourself, the masking. But what's interesting, one thing that I did start to notice when everything was really sort of, you know, everything was kind of falling apart. And I do think the menopause set all of that off. I found it much more difficult to be able to mask socially, I found. And so I started to retreat more because if I was out in a social setting, I just. I. Suddenly I wasn't able to mask like I had been able to before. And that left me feeling very vulnerable because this was at a point in my life where I didn't know about. I didn't know about masking. I didn't know what was happening. Suddenly the mask was just gone, and I just felt so vulnerable. And so, you know, I've always had social anxiety, but it just went through the roof. And so I found myself retreating a lot more. So. Yeah, so you might find yourself in your 30s or 40s when perimenopause starts to kick in. You might start to mask it and just think, wow, yeah, I just. This is just stress. This is just, you know, my ADHD is just kicking up a notch, and you. And you dismiss it, but then you find yourself, oh, crap, I can't even find my mask. I mean, I see this all the time with clients. The amount of clients, women in their 40s, they come to me and they're like, ashley, I used to be able to handle all of these things. This is happening. That's happening. But I used to be able to handle these things. Why can't I handle them now? That's a big, big sign when you're suddenly not able to handle things in life that you were able to handle before. Yeah, that. That's a really big sign that perimenopause has arrived.
- [47:56]
Jordan James
So do. Do you. Because obviously, you know, I'm not a doctor or anything, but do. Do you know, like, what causes. You know, like, if it happens earlier, like, is. Is there. Is it just, like a lottery that, like, it just. Oh, it just happens to you? Or is. Is there like, anything that you. If you're in your 20s or early 30s and you haven't gone through this, do you, you know, is to prolong it? You know, because I. I think this is what women need to know. This is coming. Whether you like it or not, it's going to happen. And, you know, people take preventative measures for lots of things of future problems. You know, we'll try and eat better because we may get cancer, we may get diabetes, or we may have a stroke, we may get Alzheimer's. And, you know, we. We can actively, you know, try our best in our lives to avoid those things. But essentially perimenopause is going to happen. But can you do anything to prolong it if you're not already going through it, or is it, is it just going to happen to you? Whatever.
- [49:08]
Ashley Dupuis
That's a really good question. And I will give you my, my thoughts on this from what I have spoken to doctors and naturopathic doctors. It all goes back to stress. Think about that pot of gold, that pot of gold that you get every single day. And if you are just using all of that pot of gold for cortisol and adrenaline and insulin, you know, if your diet is poor and your stress levels are high, then that will very likely. I don't want to say this definitively because I'm not a doctor, but I think you could increase your chances of getting it sooner. Yes. And also you have to also balance out if you are on birth control pills, because I think also what likely contributed to me, and I had a naturopathic doctor say this to me, so I don't know whether or not this is true, but I started on the pill quite young and because I enjoyed, because I liked being on it, I never took a break. I was on it for decades. And the amount of estrogen and progesterone that they pump in you is way more than you need. So your body's just like, oh, well, we don't need to produce this anymore. So it basically just kind of shut it, shut things down because it's like, well, we're getting this every day, we don't need to produce it ourselves. And so then coming off the pill, then it was just like, woof. So yes, I think there are just recognize that you may want to take breaks from the contraceptive pill. You know, take a five year break if you're in your mid-20s or early 30s and see what your cycle is like. But yeah, I think stress levels, nutrition, exercise, sleep, if you prioritize these in your life, I mean, everybody should be prioritizing these in their life.
- [51:21]
Jordan James
Absolutely. Yeah.
- [51:22]
Ashley Dupuis
But these things will absolutely help to serve you in this regard in terms of reducing your symptoms of perimenopause and maybe hopefully holding it off as long as you can.
- [51:40]
Jordan James
Right. Well, thank you so much, Ashley. That has been really, really helpful for me. I'm just gonna just be as best a friend as I possibly can to Sylvia if she goes through this and, and just fingers crossed it's not gonna be like the worst thing she's gone through. She's, you know, she seems to be doing all right. At the moment. But yeah, one last question. Did you go through hr? Hrt?
- [52:13]
Ashley Dupuis
Yes, I'm on hrt. I'm a big fan. I'm a big fan.
- [52:16]
Jordan James
Are you on it now?
- [52:17]
Ashley Dupuis
I'm on it now as we speak.
- [52:20]
Jordan James
As we speak. She's got all. She's like on it. She's dugging herself in.
- [52:26]
Ashley Dupuis
It's been wonderful. And yes, and one thing I forgot to add, the emotional aspect of everything landing for a woman is going to be different for every woman too. It didn't really bother me, this whole I'm no longer a woman, fully a woman sort of thing, but it can really, really impact your sense of self for a woman. You know, I am a woman. And it's a sort of an end of an era, you know, oh, gosh, I can't have kids anymore. You know, again, of course, it's not like you and Sylvia would want to have. And as you said, you've already had your vasectomy. But, you know, just knowing that that possibility has now gone can be quite, quite a mental load to land.
- [53:22]
Jordan James
Absolutely. Especially for women who haven't had kids.
- [53:26]
Ashley Dupuis
Yes.
- [53:26]
Jordan James
And, you know, and like you said, this can happen in your 30s. And then obviously a lot of women, a lot of people, they will just wait and they'll wait and they'll get into their 30s and they'll be like, okay, we're gonna start having kids now. And then suddenly perimenopause hits and it's like, oh, my God. So I'm my. I mean, my heart just goes out to women in general for everything. They have to put up with this. This does sound scary. So hopefully this episode has helped some people and, you know, just. Just know this, this is going to happen. And if you're a man, be kind. And if you're a woman, be patient, because men are useless most of the time. And if. If they're good, there's just. Because they're trying. We are trying our best, but. Yeah. So hrt, like, is that like an injection? Like, exactly. What is it? We're gonna finish the episode, but I really curious, what exactly is hrt?
- [54:31]
Ashley Dupuis
Okay, so there's. This is really important to cover. I'm glad we were talking about this. So we've got estrogen, we've got progesterone, and we've got testosterone. So we've got those three things. For women who are still having a period or at least sporadic periods, not full on menopause, they want you to take estrogen every day and progesterone progesterone, every two weeks to kind of mimic what a normal cycle is.
- [55:03]
Jordan James
Is that in tablets?
- [55:05]
Ashley Dupuis
So for me, it's different for everyone. For estrogen, you can get a patch. I don't do well with patches. They don't stick to my skin. So I do a gel.
- [55:15]
Jordan James
Okay.
- [55:16]
Ashley Dupuis
But I think you can also take it in pill form, the estrogen. So there's three different ways for the progesterone. I think it's always a. A pill. I take a pill. And by the way, they've changed the formula of these HRTs. They're so different now to what they were even 20 years ago. There was a much higher risk of cancer for the types of HRT that were about 20 years ago. These days, the risks, the benefits far outweigh the risk. So things are much more bioavailable, which is. So anybody out there who's a bit sort of like, oh, I don't want to get cancer, really speak to your doctor about this because things have changed massively in that thing.
- [56:02]
Jordan James
I couldn't agree more because that was Sylvia's first thing was, oh, I don't want to increase the risk of cancer. And I was like, right, you need to look at that research again. Because the research I looked at said that was very old research. Yeah. And it was incredibly biased research.
- [56:19]
Ashley Dupuis
Yeah.
- [56:19]
Jordan James
And it wasn't accurate because basically they said, oh, there's like this really minimum chance it might give you cancer. And then all these articles came out of it will give you cancer. Yeah. So it was literally like, oh, you might. There's a sprinkle of a chance. And they were thinking, and they were saying, oh, in fact, it's going to be. There's like a whole rainstorm. So, yeah, do your research, you know, especially modern research. And don't, like, watch YouTube and be like, oh, that's definitely. Read articles and read actual research if, if that. If you can.
- [56:56]
Ashley Dupuis
Yeah.
- [56:56]
Jordan James
But like you said, Ashley, talk to your doctor.
- [57:00]
Ashley Dupuis
And testosterone is a really interesting, interesting one. I'm not on it, but I'm looking to get on it because this is also really helpful for women. It can be really helpful for libido. It can also be really helpful for pain and building muscle because our ability to build muscle reduces quite a bit as we get older for everyone, but, you know, we really want. So I'm looking into possibly doing some testosterone replacement therapy as well. So I'll have the whole trifecta going on. So. Yeah. And for those loved ones who are supporting someone going through perimenopause Even though we kind of already mentioned this, I think it's important because we only just a few minutes ago mentioned about this loss of sense of self. Just realize that that's going on, too. It's not just the stress and the symptoms. There's this overall umbrella of who am I? You're kind of grieving as you're moving into this new stage in your life, so just be super patient, as Jordan was saying, and lots of communication. Sometimes they may want to talk about it, sometimes they may not. It's going to be a bit of a movable feast. Every day is going to be a new adventure. But if you're in it together and just keep that communication going.
- [58:30]
Jordan James
Yeah. Because here's another news flash. Men who are listening every. Just because a woman comes to you with a problem doesn't mean you have to give her a solution. Sometimes they just want to talk about it and they want someone to listen. So keep your mouth shut and don't mansplain.
- [58:51]
Ashley Dupuis
Yes.
- [58:53]
Jordan James
And do this, because this is what I've learned to do is you say, would you like some advice? Or would you like me to help? Or how can I help? And they might. They will probably turn around and go, oh, no, no, no, no. I just, I just wanted to vent. And you go, oh, because that is you helping. That is you supporting. It's just existing.
- [59:16]
Ashley Dupuis
Yes.
- [59:17]
Jordan James
Right. It's just that you are a soundboard sometimes. Right? Just, just, just stand there and just listen and just say, oh, well, we
- [59:28]
Ashley Dupuis
all know how important it is to feel heard and acknowledged, don't we? So, yes, that is, you're.
- [59:34]
Jordan James
So.
- [59:34]
Ashley Dupuis
That's such a great thing to hit home there. And that is, you know, because some, some people might be feeling, well, I'm not doing anything if I'm just listening. That's huge. If you are really, really listening and you are acknowledging and holding space and all those wonderful phrases, that is doing something. Definitely.
- [59:51]
Jordan James
Yeah. Don't pretend to listen while you're doing something else. Actually listen. Don't just go, yes, dear, whatever you say. Because. No, don't be a dick. Don't be a dick. Actually listen and actually care. That's, That's. That should be without saying, but no, no, no. Well, I'm. I'm fresh out of spoons, and I am. I'm going to go and go and hug my wife and make sure she's okay. That's what I'm going to go and do.
- [60:22]
Ashley Dupuis
Wonderful.
- [60:24]
Jordan James
And feed her chocolate. Dark chocolate.
- [60:27]
Ashley Dupuis
Dark chocolate. Yes, exactly. Exactly. Well, thank you so much for having me on. This was such an important discussion to have today.
- [60:35]
Jordan James
You are just amazing. Thank you so much for doing this. And we're gonna see you again very, very soon. We're gonna talk about how medical people, medical people, doctors and so on and so forth don't really take us very seriously. So that's one to tune in for.
- [61:01]
Ashley Dupuis
Absolutely.
- [61:01]
Jordan James
Probably next month.
- [61:02]
Ashley Dupuis
Yeah.
- [61:03]
Jordan James
Right. So, yeah, we'll just finish the episode and Scotty usually says stuff about, you know, don't forget mindful Mondays on Monday. I don't know who does that. Some. Some lady.
- [61:17]
Ashley Dupuis
Some crazy lady.
- [61:19]
Jordan James
If. If you're crazy, I'm flipping insane. But yeah, yeah, some, some Ashley lady does an amazing mindful Monday. So tune in for that. We're not going to have a Hot Topic again this week. I'm really, really sorry, everyone, but we will be back for Hot Topics as soon as Scotty has got his spoons back because. Yeah. So bye everyone. Bye. Nightly.
- [61:53]
Simon Scott
Thanks for tuning in to the Neurodivergent Xperience. We hope today's episode sparks something for you. Whether it's a new idea, a bit of validation, or just a moment of connection, remember, new episodes are every week, so be sure to join us for the next one for more conversations and insights into the neurodivergent experience. If you've enjoyed this podcast, help us grow. You can do that by rating and reviewing this show. Your support makes a huge difference difference in helping us reach more people who could benefit from these conversations. You can connect with us on social media, find us on Instagram, Facebook, Tick tock. Just search for the neurodivergent experience. Thank you again for listening and until next time, take care of yourself. You're not alone in this journey.
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