Jordan James (2:33)

I'm Jordan James, a neurodivergent specialist, father of neurodivergent children, husband to a neurodivergent wife, and author of the Autistic Experience. And I'm joined by my best friend. Friend.

Simon Scott (2:45)

I'm Simon Scott. I'm an autistic ADHD broadcaster, actor and advocate. Join us as we journey into unraveling the neurodivergent experience.

Jordan James (2:58)

Welcome back, everybody. How you doing? How you doing? I am very, very tired and I've, I've not been accommodating for myself. Um, Scotty, how are you doing?

Simon Scott (3:13)

Do you know what, my friend? I'm actually very, very good. I have been trying to accommodate for myself. I don't know how successful I've been, but I will say I've just come back from a really busy trip and I have a lot more energy than I normally would have done. So I'm taking that as a bit of a success. But yeah, I'm, I'm okay, my friend. It's nice to be back in the, in the virtual booth with you. It feels like forever since we've just sort of had a normal episode that wasn't like a, a last minute one or, you know, like, there's been so much breaking news recently, like with the Utah Firth show article and then with like, I swear as well. So it's nice to return to the norm, as it were, for a regular show. But yeah, you're right, we're going to be talking about accommodations today.

Jordan James (3:59)

Accommodations, legal accommodations, and just asking for accommodations that people, you would expect people to be like, yeah, no, that sounds, that sounds fine. Rather than questioning every little thing because, you know, we don't look disabled. So it's, it's. A lot of it is about our invisible disabilities. Something that, you know, obviously gets continuously overlooked.

Simon Scott (4:27)

Yes.

Jordan James (4:28)

And, but we are still part of the, the equality act of 2010 and we, we do need those adjustments, but we don't just need them in the workplace, which we can talk about. But obviously on your trip you have to make accommodations for yourself because you're part of a group. It's not like when you're just going on holiday and you can be like, so when Sylvia and I are around, we, we just, oh, yeah, we need this or we need that and we make our own accommodations for ourselves. You have to ask often, you know, people you don't know that well because it was part of a big group that you went on this trip with. You. You, you have to Express yourself and you have to talk about what you need to almost strangers. And that's, that's hard.

Simon Scott (5:24)

Yeah. And, and it was. So we'll, we'll get straight into the, the crux of the story and as to why. I think it would be good to discuss this because it's so fresh for me. I have just come back from a stag do where we flew to Milan and then got a three and a half hour train to Rome. Spent a couple of days in Rome and I think I did like 40,000 steps in two days and then got the train back from Rome to Milan, which again was a three hour one. Had an evening in Milan, then had most of a day in Milan and flew back to Manchester on Monday night and then had to get back from Manchester to Liverpool. So that is an awful lot of traveling, an awful lot of time on my feet. And again I was with a group of guys who I knew most of. There was a couple of people there I was meeting for the first time and ironically they were the people I got on like the best with. But there was a load of guys there that I've known on and off for the best part of five years. A couple of them I've known for nearly 20 years. And it was, it was interesting. I am really. I'm not, I don't feel like I'm new to asking for accommodations now. I'm a lot better at it than I was. But I still feel like it's untested waters a lot of the time, especially with strangers. And even more so with guys. It does feel a little odd to meet other men and then just be like, oh, by the way, and ask for some supports and accommodations. And the first one that appeared was the train from Milan to Rome. So we, we got, we flew there, everything was fine, absolutely great. Got on the, the coach to the train station. Milan train station is the most breathtaking train station I've ever seen in my life. It's like a cathedral. And we get on the train and there's 12 of us, but there's only 10 seats in our section where two of the people were miles away. So two people essentially kept taking turns standing up. And it became very apparent to a couple of the people in the group that I wasn't doing my share of standing up on this train and was trying to explain to them that as I understand it, I think I've got EDS because my feet were going hard and the back of my carbs were really sore and stiff. And I did do a Bit of standing up, but I didn't do it as long as other people. And I don't know whether this was intentional, but I definitely did feel the energy of not doing my fair share of the standing. And I tried to talk to a couple of people about it, and some people were like, oh, that's absolutely cool, mate.

Jordan James (8:10)

I'm.

Simon Scott (8:10)

I'm not that bothered. And a couple of people responded with, mm, which to me is, oh, whatever, mate. Don't make, you know, make an excuse is sort of energy. And it's really hard to explain to somebody about a disability that only you feel and they can't see.

Jordan James (8:29)

Yeah, it's. I, I used to get this. I. I don't really get this anymore because of. Of everything that I've achieved as. As an advocate and a. And just being able to speak for myself all these years, but I. I definitely would get it. When I first got diagnosed as autistic as this almost. What's the word I'm looking for? Suspicion, there was, like, this suspicious attitude of, does he really? Or is he just asking for it? And. And I. And the thing is, I. I don't. I didn't really blame them. I wasn't, like, annoyed at them because it's not like I've never felt like that. It's not like I've never thought, oh, how come that person's able to do that but no one else is? Because it is a very human thing to be visual.

Simon Scott (9:36)

Yeah.

Jordan James (9:36)

And to just not be able to see past what you're already seeing. So if somebody is blind and they've got sunglasses on, and everyone else has got sunglasses on, so you don't know that that person's blind. And then you see that person maybe bump into something or maybe, like, being, you know, clumsy or whatever because they can't see. I'm not saying that that's what blind people do. I'm just giving an example.

Simon Scott (10:03)

Yeah.

Jordan James (10:04)

If everyone else is wearing sunglasses and there's no other signs that that person is blind, then you don't know that person is blind. So if that person turns around and then says, oh, I need this to be done because I'm blind, people would be like, well, you don't look blind, so. Yeah, because he's looking at everyone else.

Simon Scott (10:24)

Yeah, I know exactly what you mean.

Jordan James (10:25)

But if everyone. If. So if you. As soon as you put a stick, a white stick in that man's hand, suddenly there's that visualization of, oh, that's what blind people look like. It's like, well, no, that's what you think all blind people look like, because that's how you're. That's how you've been taught. That's how documentaries or movies or films or media in general, or, you know, just, you know, biases in your own brain, they're not going to be able to adjust. No. Super quickly.

Simon Scott (10:57)

Yeah.

Jordan James (10:57)

So it's. It's not the people I blame for having the. That, like that quick reaction, like I got in. In Heathrow Airport a few years ago.

Simon Scott (11:06)

Yeah, exactly.

Jordan James (11:07)

That man chasing me down because I shouldn't have been in the disability line because I didn't have a wheelchair, apparently. 1. I blame how they approach that, but I more blame if you then get to know someone and then have a conversation with someone and then you're still dismissive.

Simon Scott (11:23)

Yeah, yeah, that.

Jordan James (11:24)

That's the problem that I find. And it's not like I haven't had that. When I've had a conversation with someone and they're like, well, doesn't everyone do that?

Simon Scott (11:33)

Oh, I had those. I had a couple of those. And I also had a couple of moments where I felt like. And I feel like this is a societal bias. And, you know, ironically, when you think about EHCPs and how some parents look at other kids and go, well, why do they get special treatment?

Jordan James (11:51)

Yeah.

Simon Scott (11:52)

I felt like I got a little bit of that.

Jordan James (11:53)

It is a curse. And. And it was. I remember when I bought my first book, a little different from the rest. I had a sen teacher contact me and. And even meet up with me and we went for a walk and this is what she wanted to talk about. Like, she wanted. She just wanted to have a chat with me anyway, because she wanted to be a better teacher. This was her biggest problem. She was like, well, how do I approach that? It's. I was like, time to off.

Simon Scott (12:24)

I was thinking of how I could phrase that I wouldn't make a brain teacher. My brain meant I was like, just tell them to go themselves.

Jordan James (12:32)

Bugger off.

Simon Scott (12:33)

Yeah. And just to sort of paraphrase, like through the story, because we were doing a lot of traveling and we were implementing a lot of fun and games in the group and I. And I enjoyed this. But then. And it was also sort of my idea, this rule. And then when it came into place, I was like, oh, I've completely nutritiously shot myself in the sore feet here in the. On the day when we were going back from Rome to Milan, we'd separated into. We had two airbnbs, one that had eight in and one that had four in. I instantly said, I want to go in the one that's in the four. I want a quieter place. I want a place that I can go chill, that people aren't up till 4 in the morning doing drunken tomfoolery. Brilliant. No one. No one batted an eyelid with that. But it meant that two groups were going towards the train station the next day. And I had jokingly referenced we should do Top Gear rules, which is if people aren't there for the thing, the group goes, and the other people catch up. And the guys that I were with, two of them were like, we're not going to Milan, so we're gonna go. And the other guy was like, I want to walk. I says, okay, no problem. I've got really sore feet this morning, and my ankles are flared up, and just all my tendons are just feeling a little bit raw, you know, mix of dehydration, hangover, and just tiredness. And I said, I'll get a cab. Jordan. I was stood there for 20 minutes, and no Uber would pick me up. And I'm looking at the time ticking down and ticking down and going, I cannot walk to get this train. And I do not feel comfortable traveling on my own from Rome to Milan. And I started to panic. I started to have a little bit of a meltdown. And the other guy that was in our group is. Is so lovely. And I didn't really know him that well before, but I actually feel like we've become really good friends. And we had a lot of conversations about neurodivergence, and he's. He's figured some things out about himself. I've never heard anybody talk about structural engineering quite like he did. I was like, something going on here. And his girlfriend's exactly the same. She's obsessed with motorbikes. Yeah, there's a bit of. Bit of tism here. And he was so generous with me in that I rung him up nearly in tears, and I was like, I am. I'm not gonna make this train. I'm in too much pain, and I can't get a cab, and I'm panicking. And he just went, don't worry, Si. I've got you. He came running back for me and managed to flag a cab down and got me in it and got me to the train station. And at no point did he lecture me or maybe go, maybe you should have done this different. He just asked me if I was okay.

Jordan James (15:05)

That sounds his girl. Like his girlfriend's got a bit of a catch.

Simon Scott (15:08)

He's an absolute. Honestly, he's such a catch. He's such a great guy. And when I got to the train station, I felt so embarrassed and a couple of people were ribbing me about it and he went, hey, guys, don't do that. He said he's had a. He's had a rough morning. Don't make it worse for him.

Jordan James (15:26)

Yeah, I've, I, I've. I've been the person that would do the ribbing, but more out of. Because I thought that when you're with blokes, that's what you're supposed to do.

Simon Scott (15:39)

And I think that's what was happening.

Jordan James (15:40)

Yeah, it was like a. It's like, it's almost like. Was like a masking thing of just me trying to fit in and there's like, oh, that's at the expense of, of your feelings. And it was definitely a very blokey, stupid, childish thing to do. But is that. That is another way of making accommodations, is thinking of how other people are feeling.

Simon Scott (16:04)

And that's one of the things that I struggled with later on in the trip because we all, once we got to Milan, were placed in a group together. We were all staying together and half of the group was sober. I was choosing not to drink anymore and the others were, as I quote it, full sending it. They were like, car parked, let's delete some beers. And they were absolutely hammered. And it didn't work for me. I felt like I just wanted a little bit of quiet and a bit of chill time. The Milan derby. AC Milan and Inter were playing each other. I couldn't get it up on the tv and the group was just sort of split and I was told and felt like the fun police. I was told I was being the fun police because I wasn't feeling regulated. And it was really hard trying to explain it to people that obviously are drunk and they're not hearing you. But even more so, a lot of the guys that were in this party that were drinking, I've known for over 16 years, and their idea of me is still who I was when I was 20, not who I am when I was 31. So I was trying to explain to them that I have these sort of things going on and it wasn't that they said it, but I did feel the energy of, since when, since when was this a problem? Since when, when did you become such a dad? Like, when did you stop being so fun? And that was hard to navigate because it. Obviously I felt like RSD in the moment, but I also had a lot of justice sensitivity. Because I was like, you're being really selfish. There's a lot more people here than just you guys. And it was hard to navigate. And I had a. And I love all the guys that I was with. I had a great time with them. But in that moment, I wasn't. I wasn't at my best, and it was because I was so unregulated. And it's hard to talk about when, one, people aren't necessarily in a good place to listen, but two, they don't know how to.

Jordan James (17:56)

Yeah, that's a good point. Let's. Let's talk more about how to accommodate for ourselves, but how difficult we find it in the moment. After the break.

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Ooh, who's there?

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Simon Scott (18:19)

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This isn't a joke.

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Simon Scott (18:25)

Okay. It's just that when people say knock knock, there's usually a joke to go with it.

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Simon Scott (18:30)

So the knock knock was just you knocking?

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Simon Scott (18:34)

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Simon Scott (19:14)

Have you ever felt stuck in patterns that don't serve you, struggled with stress, or wanted to connect more deeply with yourself? Then I have to introduce you to a friend of the podcast, Ashley Bentley of integrated coaching, breathwork and hypnotherapy. Ashley is a highly experienced clinical hypnotherapist and coach specializing in working with neurodivergent minds. Through a unique blend of integrative coaching, breathwork and hypnotherapy, Ashley helps people rewire subconscious patterns, regulate their nervous systems, and step into more empowered versions of themselves. Whether you're dealing with addiction, anxiety, burnout or struggles with self acceptance. Ashley offers practical and science backed tools tailored just for you. Her unique methods combine neuroscience, storytelling, subconscious transformation to create real, lasting change. Jordan and I can personally attest to the profound and transformative effects of her sessions which have been life changing. She does all of these sessions online, meaning she can work with you no matter where you are in the world. If you're ready to break free from old patterns and start living with more clarity, confidence and connection, go to Bit ly ashleynde to book a free consultation or learn more. Welcome back to the Neurodivergent experience. We have been discussing accommodating and how to ask for it and how to deal with it in the moment. I've been sharing some of my experience from my travels this past weekend. But Jordan, just before the break, you were discussing or bringing up how to advocate for yourself in the moment. Now this is not easy for me.

Jordan James (21:02)

Exactly. And I don't think it's, it's, it's easy for, for most people, I think when, when I'm feeling overwhelmed, I, I almost do it out of like grabbing the edge of the cliff as you're falling off. Like it's my last ditch attempt.

Simon Scott (21:22)

Okay.

Jordan James (21:24)

And I think the, the worst thing is then if somebody doesn't understand, then I have to explain it to them. And I'm like, I don't, I don't have the, I don't have the energy. I don't have the energy for that. So normally I'm just like, it is what it is, deal with it. And it can come across as, you know, I mean, I've been called aggressive and I, and I don't like that. I don't like being called aggressive. But the end of the day, I, I was prone to a lot of meltdowns which, you know, were aggressive meltdowns. So I, I used to snap if, if I. But again, it was more out of desperation than actual anger. Almost like if you're hanging off the edge of that cliff and someone goes to grab you and they're like, how are you feeling? You're like, just get my hand, for God's sake. I'm just about to freaking die and you're having a conversation with me.

Simon Scott (22:17)

Energy that for anybody. Yeah, no, I get that.

Jordan James (22:19)

You wouldn't be like, oh, I'm fine, everything's fine. Literally, it would feel like I'm hanging off a cliff and I'm just desperately needing.

Simon Scott (22:28)

It's like a stewardess coming down as the plane's crashing and they go, would you like a parachute? Yeah, please.

Jordan James (22:36)

Yeah, that'd be great.

Simon Scott (22:37)

It goes without saying. No, yeah, no, I totally get that. And this is the thing that I found difficult. And I'm sure you as a listener may agree with this as well. When I was taking myself off into the corner and was a bit quiet, and I have that thing where my face goes neutral and I look angry, even though I'm not angry, I'm just zoning out. I give off an atmosphere. I give off a negative energy because I'm feeling negative. And that energy can come across as passive aggressive, especially when somebody comes up to you, is like, oh, why? Come on, what you moping for? What you being like this. My response in that moment, being alexithemic, wasn't, oh, this is what's happening. I'm not really vibing with what's going on, and this and that and this and that. My response was, leave me alone, fuck off. Which obviously doesn't help, but it's the only thing that could come out in the moment because I was just so overwhelmed. And I really wish I had the ability to just turn my overwhelm off to be able to communicate, because I know it doesn't. If anything, it makes it worse sometimes because I look like I'm. I'm. I'm being a dick and being judgmental, when really I'm just overwhelmed. And then somebody asks me if I'm okay, and I go, well, what do you think? Off. It's not exactly. It's not exactly helping the situation, is it? But it's the only words I can get out in that moment because I want to be left alone and can't explain why.

Jordan James (24:05)

I think this is why realizing early when you. You're gonna need adjustments in your environment to avoid being overwhelmed or just to be able to cope with the overwhelm and just. Just catching it in that stage before it gets too much. But that takes an extraordinary amount of self awareness. It's something that I've particularly worked on. Like, so I knew exactly what was going on. And it took me years to figure out how. How to spot it in time. And how I look at it is I'm. I'm so different. We've discussed this with, with my temper. I'm so different when I'm driving. Like nowadays, if someone just pulls out in front of me or someone's just an idiot or someone. Oh, the. The roundabout thing, where people cannot stick into the lane in the roundabout, they go from one lane to the others, one lane to the Other and I'm like, it's a roundabout. Just stay in the same lane around the roundabout. But all of these things I, I look at and just go, what a dick. And I don't ever get angry anymore. But even me this morning when I'm driving home from work and someone pulls out in front of me and I'm just like, ah, well, that was a thing. And then someone else pulled out in front of me and I don't mean it in front of me, in front of me. I mean, I had to slam on my brakes in front of me.

Simon Scott (25:36)

Yeah.

Jordan James (25:36)

If I have to slam, not just gently caress the brake, slow down a bit. If I have to whack on the brake. You have pulled out in front of me very dangerously. Two people did it. And I was like crying out loud, why can't people just drive anymore? And as I'm saying it, a taxi, a white taxi does the same thing. And it was so bad because I was doing 50 in a 50. And he just comes out in front of me. I had to swing around him. Luckily, luckily in the middle there was that cross lines.

Simon Scott (26:11)

Yeah.

Jordan James (26:11)

And I had to swing around across. And he came out of nowhere like it was a golf club or something like that that had like a hidden entrance. And he just came out in front of me, just pulled out, just pulled out in front. And I had to swing around him. I've got it all on my dash cam. I didn't recheck it because of what I did after I fricking lost my mind for the first time in God knows how long. I was like, I'm normally combat. And I didn't do it at him. But what I did do is I immediately, as soon as I got in front of him, I slowed down really much. I slowed right down. Not as like to punish him, not because of any other reason. I just wanted him to know what he just did. Like swinging around him wasn't enough. But I was pissed and I wanted him to know that. And normally I just don't care. But I was so sick of it. And taxi drivers really do my head in because they should know how to drive and they freaking don't.

Simon Scott (27:10)

They're on the road more than anybody, own the road.

Jordan James (27:13)

And that really pisses me off. And. Oh, God. And I did it. And then I saw a car coming up behind him and I went, well, I'm not going to ruin his day. And then I just started moving at a normal pace. But I was, I did, I did swear, but my back window is Blacked out. So it doesn't make any difference. He can see nothing. My windows are blacked out of the back. And so he's seen nothing. But I was swearing, I was angry. It lasted five seconds, maybe 10. And that is the first time I've lost it. And I didn't feel that building up. But I know it's because I'm tired. I was on my way home from a night shift and. And then I can go through the reasons, what happened, how to avoid it next time, but sometimes you just can't avoid those things. But nowadays I am better at understanding and knowing about a meltdown and. And how it's going to build up. And I do make accommodations and I do explain those to people, but it's so hard to do it in the moment. It's practically impossible.

Simon Scott (28:29)

Yeah, it is. And one of my things that I tried to do to preempt it and I ended up choosing not to do this, is I looked at getting myself my own hotel. I looked at just finding a hotel room that was further in town.

Jordan James (28:43)

Yeah.

Simon Scott (28:43)

And the only reason that I didn't was because of the reaction that it would get. I was really worried about how I would affect myself socially if I was like, right, I'm gonna take myself away from this and have a hotel.

Jordan James (28:57)

Yeah. Essentially, you're ostracizing yourself, which is always advantageous.

Simon Scott (29:03)

Exactly. And I was really sat in between that of going, I'm really struggling in this environment, but if I take myself out of it, that will have a consequence that I think may be worse than what I'm dealing with right now. So I ended up almost being in between, like, a rock and a hard place and just sort of having to power through it. But it is hard. It is really hard. And it. And, you know, we've discussed sort of social settings, but you've experienced this very recently with work.

Jordan James (29:30)

Yeah. I was doing training in London. I did a post about how much I hate trains, but only traveling. I love a steam train. Love a Thomas A. Tank engine. Not so fond of the electric ones. Definitely not fond of them when they're heading towards London. And definitely, definitely not fond of them when they're heading towards London on a Tuesday morning when they would jam pack, jam pack. It was like the 7:00 clock train and it was 7:00am cattle cart. Oh, it was terrible. I managed. I was very. I managed to get a seat in the corner next to a window next to a very nice lady. And I just put my headphones on. I just stared out the Window. And that, that was all right, that, that worked okay. And, but it was still very busy. I got a lot of anxiety. I had a colleague with me who, who lives nearby and we got the train together. And I suspect very highly that he is neurodivergent. But he was making sure I was okay and, which was really, really lovely of him. And I, I felt like I want to give him my seat because he got, he had to stand. And it wasn't just standing, he got crushed. Like there was so many people standing. There was. So I was like, if I looked at him, I was getting anxiety looking at him, let alone if I was him, I would have had to physically move people out of the way, which I have done. And I'm not afraid to do. I am not a small person. I'm not afraid to use my size and strength.

Simon Scott (31:10)

Put your elbows out a little. Yeah.

Jordan James (31:12)

To create, you know. And I have my very mean, angry dad face. I've got my toes flying. I'm not afraid. I'm not afraid to go a little bit primal and just be like born over brain. But I was sat in the corner, I was looking at him and he is such a gentle person. Like, he does not have that demeanor. He is a very sweet, gentle older man and he was just squashed. And I felt so bad for him. I kept having to look away, which was even worse because he was trying to give me eye contact like, hi. And I was like, I was just looking out the window. And we were, we were on our way to London together, but we did, we weren't together.

Simon Scott (31:57)

You just feel guilty. Don't you just feel like you've abandoned.

Jordan James (32:00)

When I got there, I was like, dude, I'm so sorry. He was like, yeah, it was really bad.

Simon Scott (32:07)

You always hope that go, oh, it was fine. But when they go, oh yeah, it sucked ass. And you're just like, oh, oh God.

Jordan James (32:13)

I, I was, I mean, I'm nice to him anyway, cuz he's very sweet. But I was like extra nice to him. There's a few people that, that, that aren't, aren't as nice to him because he's very quiet. So they're always, they called him boring. And I'm just like, he's not boring. He's just, he's very, very sweet man. And I think that, that, that, that's not, that's not common. Even if someone's quiet, it doesn't mean they're nice. You know, they could be plotting evil vendettas. Serial killer in the corner yeah, but he. But I. I have a neurodivergent lens and. And I see everything through a neurodivergent. So even if it's a neurotypical, I'm wondering what. What's. What's happening, you know, if they're acting a certain way, is that because of something else? Maybe. And I know we. We talk about neurodivergence, and we talk about it as a born thing most of the time, as something you're born with, which is, you know, ant the alternative neurotype. That's mostly what we focus on. But there are neurotypical born people that become neurodivergent, you know, by. By its original meaning with brain injuries, PTSD also, you know, all sorts of things, you know, can. Can cause a very different acting brain. And I want to bring them into our family. You know, I want to be accepting of them, into our neurodivergent experience because they are part of it. You know, those people are valid to be part of that neurodivergent experience. It's about being different. It's about being treated differently, and it's about needing support and needing accommodation. And accommodation isn't just for us being born like this, you know, it's for everyone. So I don't know how he's neurodivergent. I just know that he is, but I haven't had those discussions with him. I just know in this moment, I felt his panic. I felt it from where I was sitting. Is that, like, weird hive empathy thing now?

Simon Scott (34:22)

I know exactly what you mean.

Jordan James (34:24)

But at the training, it was. It was nice because obviously everybody knows that I am who I am. And I don't mean just that I'm neurodivergent. They all know that I've got the book and I've got the page and the photography. And they know about the pod, this podcast. Hey, if you're listening, they. They know everything about me because I tell them and I disclose it. You know, I'm not sneaky about it. I'm very, very proud of everything that I've achieved. And they're very, very nice to me. I do wonder sometimes, are they very, very nice to me because I'm Jordan James, or they're very, very nice to me because I'm employee Jordan James? Sometimes I do feel that I get special treatment because of who I am, not because of my conditions. Now, I advocate, and I've tried to massively advocate at my work for other neurodivergent employees, most of which are grizzly old Security officers who, it doesn't matter whether I'm or not, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Very, very stubborn people that I've met, very obviously neurodivergent people. And the only time I've ever. And I, and I say this with the greatest pride, the only time I've ever seen the, the, the cracks in their neurotypical masking is when they speak to me. And people just become themselves around me because of how accommodating I am. And I know for a fact, you know, I'm a manager and I have a team, and I know for a fact that members of my team are neurodivergent and they know they're neurodivergent, but the company does not. So I'm in this room doing this training with this trainer, and I know that at least three to four people, including my colleague that I came up with are neurodivergent. I'm the only person in that room that is getting accommodations. I was allowed to play with my toy. I, I was, I was very active in the, the training, but I had a toy and I was playing with my toy all the way through. And though no one else is doing that, but I was massively taking part, I never once looked at the trainer except to ask him things. But when I was doing the talking, when I was participating, when I was giving my opinion on things, like I said, very, very super adhd, active in the training and playing with a toy the whole time, nothing is said, nothing.

Simon Scott (37:10)

No one's judging you. No one looks. They know that.

Jordan James (37:12)

I mean, it would be hilarious if they dared to. Yeah, even my colleagues completely, they just. It's fine. In fact, one point, it was a, it was like a small little plastic mini basketball that I was playing with. And I was, we were talking about active listening and I said, yeah, but not everyone actively listens by looking. And the trainer's like, oh, no, no, I know that, you know, I know about you, Jordan. And I was like, yeah, but. All right, you know about me, but what about the people you don't know about?

Simon Scott (37:42)

Again, it comes down to that thing of. It focuses on diagnosed, not the self doubt.

Jordan James (37:47)

Yeah, exactly, exactly. So there are other people that might have needed that accommodation, but they were, they wouldn't have done it because of their trained in society that you can't do that. But I, I will do whatever I like at work. And I don't mean that as in I want to get away with things. I mean, I will just be myself. I, If I need something, I Will just have it. So I, I needed to leave the room and the trainer was like no, no, that's absolutely fine. So I got up and I went out and I just relaxed because like the training was, you know, there's a lot of people in one place. And I just went outside for a little bit when you know, put water on my face and I went back in and carried on with the training and things like that I will just do. But it is because I have that piece of paper because I'm able to advocate for myself. Then I get accommodations. And it shouldn't be like that. People should need to be at a spot neurodivergence. And I know that's probably sounding very like, oh well, you know, not everyone can. But I would have thought that people in workplaces should. And in my experience they accommodate for me. But it, there doesn't really seem a lot of accommodation other in other places.

Simon Scott (39:08)

No, I get that. It's almost like they have, they have the training and obviously it's like what, two hours seminar or something like that.

Jordan James (39:16)

In some places it was an eight hour day.

Simon Scott (39:19)

Oh, see, I've never had any neurodivergent training in any workplace I've ever worked.

Jordan James (39:23)

Oh, the neurodivergent training. So I thought you meant my training.

Simon Scott (39:25)

Oh, sorry, no, my train was eight hours. Jesus. That. What? That fry my brain. But yeah, I've never really had any sort of neurodivergent training in it. And it's, it's hard, isn't it? Because you shouldn't just be accommodating for the people that have the piece of paper. You shouldn't offer a lift to somebody to only the person that's in the wheelchair. You know, it's, it, it's like you were saying with the blind people. If everyone's wearing sunglasses, do they also need a stick and a guide dog to be recognized as blind and to be given accommodations or can, you know, do we. Do you have to have all of the hallmarks before it's recognized? And I had this. When I was away, I had a lot of discussions with people and I had one conversation with one guy at length for a really long time about neurodivergence and what I do for a living and this show and the conversations I have with you listeners. And he turned to me and he said, I have never met anybody who has qualities in a human being that you do. He says, you're just such a kind person and you've been so accommodating to everybody and he says, you're so incredibly authentic. And all of these things are things I have never thought about myself. I've had to really work on all of that.

Jordan James (40:42)

It's the reason I let you into my inner circle, my friend.

Simon Scott (40:45)

Yeah. And it's been so rewarding to just to feel it and to see in action. And yet at the same time I have, you know, you listeners message me and tell me all of these things that I like about myself now and I feel really good at. And yet at the same time I have this show and the clout I have and all of this experience and there were still people that were in front of me I could not accommodate with, I couldn't, I couldn't communicate with and couldn't get it out properly. And even though I have the experience and the terminology I have, I was explaining EDS to somebody, he was like, I don't know about that. Just regardless, even though I explained it and my sort of response was, oh, I didn't realize that you had a degree in, you know, these sorts of things and you understand it and it's amazing how you can still have all the language and explain it to people and still even have the diagnosis and other people go, if you just tried suffering, if you just tried maybe just trying a bit harder or not being lazy. And it's crazy how that still happens even though we, we have all of the information that we know it. Sometimes it all depends on, on the person that's in front of you and who you're speaking to is. It is very, very hard to navigate, especially when you justice sensitivity kicks in.

Jordan James (42:00)

Yeah, absolutely. Should we have one more bacon then close it off when we come back.

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Simon Scott (43:35)

Welcome back to the neurodivergent experience we've been discussing. Accommodating for yourself, asking for accommodations, recognizing that others need it. But Jordan, you have a lot of information on this and a better understanding that I do. There's a lot of this that's within law.

Jordan James (43:50)

Well, yeah, I mean, to be fair, most of, most of the accommodations I need, you know, they're not like, directly covered by law. It's more of the fact that because I'm like, okay, I need a stim toy, that sort of thing. So the, the training I was doing on Friday, it was like, it was completely different training, but again, I'd had to go on the train to London. I accommodated for myself by leaving on an earlier train which was much less busy. Much, much better. I got into, into London when it wasn't as busy. I then went for a nice coffee and I chilled out and I was accommodating for myself. Rather than getting just on time and then rushing to the training, I acclimatized myself to the area. But it was also better because I'd been there, you know, a few days before. Even though that was my first time, I was walking around like I was a pro. I was like, yeah, I'm London pro now. And those sorts of accommodations, they're, they're ones that you have to make for yourself, but there are legal ones your company, by law, have to make. And this, this, this goes for, for anyone. And you have to make these if you have a company. And obviously it comes from the Equality Act 2010. It is, it's primary UK legislation protecting people in Great Britain from disability discrimination in work education services. So it's, it's a very handy thing to have. It's not something I take advantage of. You know, I don't go, well, I've got this disability, so I can do this, this and this. I try my best to do everything everybody else is doing and everything I'm asked of, but sometimes my disabilities stop me and, and I do need protection or I have done in the past. I remember other jobs where I wasn't diagnosed Neurodivergent. And I used to get bollocked all the time for, for messing up like getting numbers wrong. Spelling, spelling wrong. I mean, bloody hell, man, why does it matter to have something spelled? But I used to get bullocks all the time for stuff like that. And obviously I had no idea that, you know, I just think, oh my God, what hell's wrong with me? Blah, blah, blah, you know, self hate, self hate. But these things are protectors, you know, to protect us from these things. It is sad that we have to have a piece of paper. Even sadder that the government are making it even harder for us to get that piece of paper. But you know, essentially we, we are disabled, you know, and, and this is, that's the two sides of that coin that I'm always talk disability and ability in. On a train, going to London, doing training in a, in a busy ass building. I mean my building has, you know, not that many people in. It's, it's a separate out of London building that I work in. It's much, much smaller. This building has like 6,000 people in.

Simon Scott (46:47)

Wow.

Jordan James (46:47)

It's crazy. It's huge. Absolutely. It's like a mecca. It's huge. This building that I had to go to. It also mandates reasonable adjustments, which is what we're talking about, to ensure accessibility, covering physical or mental impairment with substantial long term negative effects on daily life. That's literally, it's literally us. You know, we, we do have that. We. I, I personally have physical and mental disabilities that obstruct me from doing things like, like other people. And they're individual to me. They're not the same for everyone. Which is why I have that problem of just saying, oh, autism is a disability. And I'm like, well, okay, but how? Because it's not disabling me like it is you. It's not disabling you like it is other people. You can't just say autism and then leave it there. It, you have to be more specific. The reason it exists is, is, you know, it covers employment, education, housing, transport and access to goods and services like shops, banks, hospitals, things like that. You know, it, it covers like we said, physical mental impairments, mostly long term because obviously you could turn around and say, well, a pregnant woman is disabled. It's like, well yeah, she does need accommodating for. Absolutely. But not in a long term period. So the Disabilities act doesn't cover someone who's, who's temporarily disabled. Like my son has just had his ACL torn. ACL fixed, bless him. 24. God's sake.

Simon Scott (48:30)

least he's young enough for it to. Yeah, he's still got Elastica magic in his blood.

Jordan James (48:34)

Yeah, yeah, it was a football injury. Got really badly tackled and just. Just damaged him. But. Yeah, yeah, but it's like. Well, you know, I mean, it covers him for his neurodivergence, but it does not cover him for his leg. But it. It came about because of, you know, discrimination. You know, direct discrimination, indirect discrimination, victimization, things like that. Because, you know, we. And I still think this happens today. You know, there is ableism. It does exist.

Simon Scott (49:06)

Oh, God, yeah.

Jordan James (49:07)

Like, I definitely believe. A few years ago, I was looked over for a particular promotion I was looking for because I'm autistic. I absolutely think that was the reason, because there was no other reason given. Because before they knew I was autistic, I was on the track for this particular promotion. And then after I told people I was autistic, suddenly people weren't as interested. It turns out that I wasn't right for that role anyway, and I probably would have struggled, and I would have actually had to go to London every day to do that role. So I was actually blessing in disguise.

Simon Scott (49:46)

Yeah.

Jordan James (49:47)

I wasn't understanding my own accommodations. I definitely. And it wasn't, you know, people that I work with now. It was previous management. Definitely felt like I was discriminated against.

Simon Scott (49:59)

But, I mean, I've experienced it at work before. I realized I was neurodivergent or have been neurodivergent. I got called the R word at work once for making a mistake.

Jordan James (50:07)

Oh, yeah. I mean, I've banned that word. I mean, people used to say that word at my work, and I banned it. I was like, nope. I was like, if I want to call myself that, that's fine. I don't. I don't like that word. I think it's gross. But I. I can't have other people saying that word. And they weren't even saying about me. They were actually saying about other people. In fact, one person had a nickname for another person, and that was their nickname. And I'm like, that can't be a nickname.

Simon Scott (50:37)

It's not good.

Jordan James (50:38)

So I asked that person who was being called the R word. I was like, does that bother you? And they were like, yeah, yeah, it does. So I was like, right. So I went to the other person and I said, you can't. You can't call them that. They. They don't like that. And they're like, oh, that's because they're The R word. And I went, right, that's it. Enough of that. I, I love being in charge. I get, I get to, I get to stop things like this.

Simon Scott (51:04)

That's the thing. That's sad though. No more social situations is. I have heard that said in groups of friends. I've heard people say it when I've like in front of the bar, when I've worked behind the bar. There have been times I've bit my tongue. There are times I have not bit my tongue. But it's hard when you're not in a position of power to tell somebody to stop doing that or else. Yeah, it's really, really not easy. And again, this sort of, in everything that we've been discussing, you really hope that the people that are in positions of power that can hold people accountable and it's non negotiable accountability that they step in for you and accommodate for you, that you being able to go and protect that person at your work by going, this is not right, stop doing it. That you just really hope that somebody has the, the gumption to go and do that on your behalf. It's. Yeah, it's, it's upsetting, isn't it? When, when you can't do it for yourself and people, you do it, you ask people to stop and they just double down.

Jordan James (52:04)

Yeah, I, I think that because of the type of social disabilities that we have, it becomes such a difficult thing to be able to stand up and say, look, I need this, I need that. I, I, I can't, I can't do this or I can't do that. And I think that it really is down to people who are in charge to recognize and ask. That's the thing that, that companies need to do is they need to ask. They say, how can we accommodate? And that is what the trainer did. When I, on, on the Tuesday I went, I went for a management, like a, like a management top up training thing. And he literally said, you know, how can I accommodate? Rather than, oh, I'll just, you know, I'll tell you what you can and can't do. It's, it's asking that question. And I think that the responsibility then lies on us as disabled people to, to be like, okay, well I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna push this, you know, I'm, I'm going to ask for the things that I need rather than the things that I want. I do think there is a difference because I want to not do all the work that I do because sometimes I feel overwhelmed by It. Yeah, sometimes it's a lot of work, and sometimes I just don't want to do it because it's like, I find it so hard to do. So it's not. I don't want to do it because I don't want to do my job. It's. I. It's like, it's really hard to do, and the PDA kicks in and it's. It makes it so much harder to actually do my job. And that's paperwork. Paperwork I find extraordinarily hard to do. Even though it's very simple and I've been doing it for 18 years, I still find it hard because I'm always worried about making mistakes. I'm always concerned about messing up or getting it wrong or forgetting something. So I'd rather just not do it. But I can't ask that accommodation. It's like, oh, someone else do the paperwork for me. And it's like, well, no, that's what you get paid for.

Simon Scott (54:22)

That's your job. If it's your job, it's your job.

Jordan James (54:25)

My. My favorite part about management is man management and people and helping other people do their job. I really, really like that. I'm really good at that. But when it comes to actually doing the paperwork for my job, oh, I struggle with that so much. But that's the thing. The accommodation I actually asked for. I said, if I do make a mistake, just point that mistake out and give me the chance to fix it. Just, just, just say, oh, by the way, this is wrong. Can you just fix it? Don't jump down my throat. Just. I need a little bit of compassion, a little bit of patience. That's all I ask for. And so far, I'm getting it.

Simon Scott (55:01)

Well, that's great news, man. I'm really pleased to hear that. Well, I don't know about you, but I'm feeling fresh out of spoons on this conversation. If you're one of our many, many, many US listeners, how does it differ for you compared to the uk? I'm intrigued to see how you would ask for accommodations in a very different working environment. And how do you accommodate for yourself? If you're on Spotify, get us in the comments. Or if you're in Jordan's page, comment under a post below that's referencing this episode. We would absolutely love to hear your opinions on this. Well, it's Neurodiversity Week, which is what we're going to be covering, and our hot topic that comes tomorrow. And as always, Ashley will be with you on Start your week with purpose with Mindful Mondays with Ashley. Take care of yourself everybody. Be kind out there. Be lucky nightly.

Jordan James (55:46)

Bye.

Simon Scott (55:50)

Thanks for tuning in to the neurodivergent Experience. We hope today's episode sparks something for you, whether it's a new idea, a bit of validation, or just a moment of connection. Remember, new episodes are every week, so be sure to join us for the next one for more conversations and insights into the neurodivergent Experience. If you've enjoyed this podcast, help us grow. You can do that by rating and reviewing this show. Your support makes a huge difference in helping us reach more people who could benefit from these conversations. You can connect with us on social media, find us on Instagram, Facebook, Tick Tock. Just search Search for the neurodivergent Experience. Thank you again for listening and until next time, take care of yourself. You're not alone in this journey.

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