← The Neurodivergent Experience
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Check it out for yourself at fin AI. Welcome to the neurodivergent Experience Podcast. A podcast where we share the lived experiences of neurodivergent people to help create a better understanding for our community.
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Join us every week as we bring you honest, raw and inspiring conversations with specialists, advocates and individuals who know exactly what it's like to live the neurodivergent Experience.
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I'm Jordan James, a neurodivergent specialist, father of neurodivergent children, husband to a neurodivergent wife, and author of the Autistic Experience. And I'm joined by my best friend.
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I'm Simon Scott. I'm an autistic ADHD broadcaster, actor and advocate. Join us as we journey into unraveling the neurodivergent experience.
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Hello and welcome to the neurodivergent Experience. I'm Jordan James and I'm tired.
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B
Hello. Yes, welcome.
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And you're Scotty. And you're also tired.
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B
Am I? Why am I? Yeah, I'm always tired.
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Why are we? Well, that's because of today's episode.
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B
Not because of the episode, but because of the topics.
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Yeah, the topics, yeah. Why are we always tired?
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B
Boys all the time.
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A
Sorry if I've thrown everyone with this weird start, but, yeah, I've. I've just. I've had a very difficult week this week because I've been doing stuff with work, training and so on and so forth, and I've had. I had the worst anxiety just going to the training. And it wasn't anxiety about the training, it wasn't anxiety about the scenarios, because there were. There were security scenario training. So we have to sort of practice, you know, different situations that we might be involved in. Security.
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B
Oh, how fun.
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A
No, I. To be honest, it's like I said, I. I know my job. I've been doing it for 25 years. It's literally water for Duck's back. My anxiety was knowing that I was going to be bored.
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B
Oh.
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A
Because I've, I've done it. I've done them all so many times. I know my job back to front. I'm really good at my job. And so I just kind of feel like this is going through the motions. You know, it's something that we have to do every year. It's mandatory training, it's, you know, box ticking exercise. So I mean, I get paid for it, so it's. I don't mind doing it, but I just had this terrible anxiety of the fact that I just didn't want to because I knew it was going to be so boring. Just going over the same thing over and over and over again.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And it was a, it was a proper sickness. Like I felt sick to my stomach of just knowing that I was going to have to sit around for eight hours.
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B
Oh.
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A
And listen to somebody talk about things I already know about.
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B
So now sit with us for 50 minutes while we talk about. No, I, I totally feel you, dude. I have a lot of moments that are like this. I mean, I've had a, A pretty busy week so far with work and it's not over yet. And there's just certain elements of it. I like loads of it. The bits that I don't like can take me hours and they're like five minute jobs sometimes. Yeah. And I'm just like, just make it go away.
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So obviously, if you haven't figured it out, we're talking about pda, but we're also talking about ed, which is executive dysfunction. Now, these two things look very similar and that the differences are inconsequential in the moment. But it's, but the whole. I suppose everything is inconsequential if you give it a name. In the moment.
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B
Yeah.
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A
But after the moment, we like to understand what, what just happened. You know, if a meltdown happens, I'd like to know why. So I could, like, help myself in the future with it.
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B
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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A
If there is a difference between my motivations for PDA or executive dysfunction, maybe that's something that I can work on. And if there's, if they're two separate things, then I can work on them separately and therefore become a better. I want to say functional. I am functional. A better, even better functioning adult. So I could just go and do things without feeling like I'm going to vomit just for the thought of being bored.
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B
Yeah, it's that living without resistance, isn't it? Like, that's the sort of difficulty that I have with it. And I'll be Honest, at this moment in time, I feel like I need to work on that because I sometimes can't tell the difference between what is a PDA sort of response or an E, an ED response. So I'm going to be learning a little bit today about myself because PDA is something that is very recent. It's a feeling that I've experienced my entire life, but it's only very recently that I've been able to sort of give it a name or actually recognize it. And now that I'm recognizing it, it's, it's like I've said many times on this show, I feel like a goddamn exorcist. As soon as I'm like, I can name you, be gone from this vessel. Like that's how I feel, like I can work on it. I have to like exercise the demon a little bit. But like I. So that is, that's sort of how I'm working with it. So you've got some lovely little notes here. So we'll give like some quite literal little labels. So executive function dysfunction, not function dysfunction. Definitely involves difficulty with planning and starting tasks, is common in a neurodivergent profile, while pathological demand avoidance is an anxiety driven resistance to demands often linked to neurodivergence. Mostly seen apparently within ADHD where the core issue is an inability but an intense need for autonomy, making tasks feel threatening. Both cause task avoidance, but ED struggles with how to do it, so overload, whereas PDA struggles with being told to do it like a threat response, even with preferred activities.
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A
I'm just going to have to quickly correct you there because I think it wrong.
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B
Oh yeah, sure.
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Is that the PDA is more common to autism than adhd.
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Oh, my apologies.
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But again, it really doesn't make any difference because it's the same, it's the same brain.
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B
Yeah, yeah, this is what I mean. It's, it's like, it's the same irrelevant.
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What it's linked to. It's linked to neurodivergence. Both of these things are neurodivergence. So yeah, it's, it's interesting that it's like, oh, both cause avoidance but there's, there's different responses to it. So it's, what is it overload or a threat response? Well, let's, let's start with executive dysfunction because it's not really something that we've, we've talked about a lot because we, we kind of just lump it in with PDAs. I always think the PDA causes executive dysfunction. That's how I've seen it. But apparently according to people, other people, honestly, I guess if you want to break these down into two separate, different things, it's probably from research of speaking to people and saying, okay, why is it that you couldn't do that? Why is it that you couldn't do this? So if you want to give these names, whereas I don't need to, but if you want to, this is very, very handy. So how would you say that you would struggle with executive dysfunction on a daily basis where you might have previously thought, oh, that's pda, but it turns out it's executive dysfunction?
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Well, if I'm sort of reading the definitions that we've got on here, my organization or, like, my planning ability or my working memory feels disabling. Like, I forget a lot of important shit. And even though somebody, like, the amount of times, dude, somebody said to me, just get a planner, just get a diary, and my brain goes, fuck off, it's not happening. But I sometimes struggle with just overload. Like, if I know that I've got that to do today and that to do today, and that to do today and that to do today, it genuinely feels like I'm stood at base camp and looking up at a big mountain and going, oh, no, I've got to get up there. And I don't know where to start. And I get in this, like, paralysis by analysis. And it's not even a case of like, oh, yeah, just start the task. I genuinely have to have that conversation in my head of like, okay, three, two, one. And go. And go. Come on, Simon. And go. Like, as an example, I struggle to get out of bed every single morning, and I've tried lots of different things, and I still feel like I've been bonked over that. You know, like in cartoons where they get knocked out and they wake up in the morning, they're like tweety birds flying around the head. That is me every single morning. And I just can't fight that feeling of just like, okay, come on, just get out of bed, get in the shower and go. And I'm just stuck. It's like I physically can't move.
- [10:41]
A
That's interesting, because I would. I would associate that being with pda because the whole getting in a shower thing, that's a demand. So I would say my executive dysfunction is, oh, I just bought a brand new computer and now I have to go and set it up. And I. And I, like, it's a laptop and I have installed the virus where I have to Install the latest version of Windows. You know, I have to get out the box, I have to plug it in, I have to get it all done. So I have to make a plan when I'm going to do it, how much time I'm going to have to do it, you know, you know where I'm going to put it, where I'm going to store it, what I'm going to do with the box after it. There's so many little demands within this one task that I see executive dysfunction as being that, that because of all the planning, because of all the, the organizing and the, the use of my brain that I have to, I have to actively use my brain and then there's that. Right. But what if I installed the wrong kind of ram? Or you know, what, what, what if I do something wrong or what if I drop it and then it's like overthinking it? So then I thought, therefore I, it will just sit there until I, until I'm ready to use up my energy. Like a sloth really. It will only use its energy if it has to. But obviously in a working environment sometimes you just, you just have to do things and that, that's why I feel tired all the time.
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B
But I would apply that to getting up in the morning because I know I've got to feed myself, I've got to get in the shower, I've got to clean my teeth, I've got to do that, I've got to do this, I've got to do that. And it's the, if I have, if I have to get out of the house for 9am and I have a list of tasks that I have to do between 8 o' clock and 9 o', clock, like get up, take the dog out for a walk.
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Right.
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I've only got 15 minutes to do that. I've got time. So I just like.
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Hold on, let, let, let me agree with you.
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B
Oh, sorry.
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A
I, I, I agree with you. I, I, I, I see what you're saying now. I, I, obviously I didn't really understand what you were saying.
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B
No, that's okay.
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A
So what you're supply saying is exact same as me is it's the overall task of coming from getting out of bed to getting to work, all that stuff in between, but all that stuff in between, it's like. So to me, what it seems like is executive dysfunction is the, the inability to start a task that involves lots of mini demands which then brings in pda.
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B
Yeah.
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A
So in a lot of the time I would imagine it Seems to me that these work in tandem. Like they, they literally both work at the same time to us over.
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B
They're like salt and pepper. That's like you cut that next to each other on. In the brain table, on your chips, you're like, oh, yeah, get them in there, do nothing. But that's sort of how I've. I. Because a lot of my, sort of. My contributions to this show, other than the technical element of it, is lived experience. I'm not a psychologist, I'm not a therapist. I haven't got the knowledge that you've got, but I can only ever talk about my own experiences and try and make it relatable. And I feel like these two are like the terror twins of my disability. They're like attack team. They're hand in hand in the. The inability to start a task creates more tasks because then, like, I lose, you know, throwing my time blindness into that and I get distracted because I'm avoiding a task. And then Suddenly I've got 45 minutes to do what happened in an hour. And that's when I start to stim. And that's when the anxiety kicks in and I start to panic because I know I've not got enough time to do stuff. And it's just like. It all just gets mixed together and I just like it. Like almost. I feel like I've had anxiety attacks because of. I can't break out of PDA or like something so simple. I'm stuck in bed and then my partner says to me, come on, time to get out of bed. And instantly my brain goes, no. And it's like two mag. You know when you put. Try and put two magnets together and there's that force in between that's like very vibrating and it physically exists, but you can't see it. That is happening in my brain. It's a horrible feeling. Like it's a. It's a quite a nasty little reaction and I hate it. It makes me feel so icky and it's so, like, exhausting to have that internal battle in my head. And it hurts sometimes.
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A
I mean, I, I would say that it, it. I was just thinking about it, like, in order to separate them, because I think they do go tandem most of the time. But if I'm going to separate them, I would say, like starting a video game or starting a new television series. I, I'm.
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B
I'm.
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I, like, I don't want to do it, even though I want to do it. So I'll give you an example. I want to. I want to start a new game. But it's a big game, right? There's. There's. There's a lot to it.
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Yeah.
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And instead of starting that game, I've gone and played all my old games. I've gone and played, like, all the Halos and the Bioshocks and the Gears of War because I know what to expect. So it's. It's almost like because I have to use my. My. My brain, my working memory, my. My organizing and my planning for a new game. It's. It's putting me off playing it. And I know that once I start playing it, I'll love it, but it's just getting over the hump. I've. I literally have played, like, eight games, old games, and I still haven't started this game, even though it's on the top of my list of, like. I was. I was so looking forward to it coming out. It came out and I just went, ah, I can't handle this. And then I would say that, like, a separate thing for PDA is literally just cleaning my teeth, just being like, oh, man. Oh, damn it.
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B
To me, it's. Washing my hair is the big one. It just annoys me. And it's something I used to do every day because I used to wear a lot of, like, product and stuff in my hair. And now every time I get in the shower, it's like, go on, you should probably wash your hair. And I just sit there and I'm just like. And then I'm in the shower for 15 minutes because I'm arguing with myself whether I should wash my hair or not. Yeah, I just sort of just stuck there. But that's. Dude, what you were explaining with video games, that's why I've had red Dead Redemption 2 on my computer for three years, and I'm not played it. And I play absolutely everything else because I'm like, I know once I start it, I've got a. It's deep. You've got to really go into it. It's why I've never played a Final Fantasy game. She, like, 300 hours in and you're only in act one. Just like, I can't be asked. I haven't got the mental capacity to commit to it.
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Games. Games nowadays are definitely not built for my brain, even though I do enjoy them. Right, let's have a break, and then when we come back, we can delve deeper into this very interesting subject.
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This is a neurodivergent Experience podcast announcement. If you're looking for a private ADHD or Autism assessment in the uk, RTN Mental Health offers a clear and supportive option without long waits. Private assessments with RTN are gold standard, NHS approved and adhere to NICE guidelines. From the beginning of the process, you'll have access to a patient support coordinator who will guide you through every step of your journey, ensuring that you feel heard and supported. Care at RTN doesn't end at diagnosis with follow up recommendations, medication and therapy options available where appropriate. Jordan chose RTN for his own family because their care and attention to detail was second to none. They didn't just look at ADHD or autism in isolation, they took the time to understand the full picture. The team is neuro affirming, highly experienced and includes neurodivergent professionals who truly get it. To help make private assessment more accessible, RTN is pleased to offer the option to pay in three zero interest instalments with Klarna, allowing you to spread the cost in a way that works for you. Terms and conditions apply. Beginning the process is simple. Visit rtnmentalhealth.co.uk to book your assessment now to take the first steps towards understanding and Getting started. In 24 hours, redeem 10% off your booking using Jordan's code JJ007 at checkout. RTN Mental Health offering clarity, care and answers without the wait. Welcome back to the Neurodivergent Experience. We've been talking about executive dysfunction and pathological demand avoidance PDA and I got told to come back from the break and I don't really want to, but I'm here now.
- [20:05]
A
Do you know what I find quite interesting is within the research that I was looking at in an article, it literally says about the overlap since PDA often co occurs with adhd, autism and involves ed, but ED doesn't always involve pda. So they're basically saying that PDA always involves executive dysfunction, but executive dysfunction doesn't always involve PDA and obviously we're literally talking about breaking it down. Yeah, I wonder what part of executive dysfunction occurs when it's like, oh, I've got to go to the toilet and I'm. And I'm sitting down comfortably and I will literally leave it to the. I'll nearly pee myself.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Before I force myself to get up and go to the toilet, because that's a demand and it's like, no, I don't want to go to the toilet. It's such an annoying thing to go to the toilet.
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B
Oh, I had so many accidents when I was a kid because I was, I was doing other stuff I was like, I'm playing a video game or I'm playing with friends. And like the amount of times that I would run off a playground and have an accident because I just didn't want to stop doing what I was doing.
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A
Yeah, but it's, I, I would also put that down with like a hyper focus as well. Like, once we're in the zone, we're in the zone.
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B
Yeah, yeah.
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A
But I, I, I don't know what, what planning is involved in me taking a piss. You know, it's just standing over the toilet. So it's like I said with, with these things, it's, it's great to put a name to them and it's great to understand them to a deeper level in some aspects. But at the same time, it, it doesn't really, it doesn't, it doesn't change the fact that what it is. And I'll, I'll give you an example of, of why sometimes it's not always that important to know things about things. Right.
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B
Okay.
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A
During my training, we were doing Armed Marauder attack training, so D and D campaign. But essentially it's if somebody comes to our site with some sort of weapon and tries to attack, you know, it's something that happens.
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B
Yeah.
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Most people associate it with terrorism, but it's not always terrorist related. So we're learning how to deal with this situation. And during this, the trainer shows us a video about an attack that happened last year on a train. A nice attack.
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B
Yeah, I remember it. Yeah.
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A
And then the police coming out and saying, we don't think it's terror related. And I was like, what was, what was the point of that video? We're learning how to stop it from happening, what we should do during it. That's what we're learning. That's the training. How we are supposed to react to somebody attacking members of staff with a knife. That's what we're training for. Why does it matter if the person's motivations are political, religious or mental health related? Maybe they've just snapped. Maybe they just hate the company. Maybe they are a disgruntled employee. It doesn't matter why they're doing it in that moment, the fact that they're doing it. My job is to react to that. A person who's doing an investigation afterwards, like the police, it is their job to determine why they did it in the first place. That's not my job. My job is to stop it happening or to limit the amount of damage that is caused by reacting and saving lives. Right. That's my job.
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B
Yeah.
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A
So why does it matter if. If it's terrorist related or not? Why is that part of the training? Just train me in what I need to know. And this is what. And when I asked that question, I got an answer of, to be honest, it, it doesn't matter. And I was like, cool. What a wonderful waste of my time watching videos about why someone did something when it didn't matter.
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B
Oh, that's an intriguing feeling that, isn't it?
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A
I do feel like I'm on an island sometimes. I'm just surrounded by people who, who just don't understand my brain. Because everybody in the room's looking at me like, oh, why is he asking this question? It's like, because in the future I don't need to see this video. I know not all attacks are terror related. I already know that. You could just say that you didn't need to make it part of the training. Like, it's just a really odd thing. And that's what I feel about most things that I see in life. I'm just like, what is even the point of that? Like, why did you put so much effort into something that literally didn't matter? And I'm wondering, is that what we're doing today? Like, we're breaking these things down? I'm like, why does it, why does it matter? But again, like I said right at the beginning, it matters if you need to know how to separate these things in order to get help. And in the third section after the next break, we will talk about some, some ways of, of helping with these. So we're not, we're not going to leave you wanting. But it still begs the question of like, may, maybe after the fact. Like I said, I think this is more of like where the investigators to know why the incident happened in the first place. But during the incident, the reasoning to me doesn't seem to matter. It's not like I'm like, oh, I don't want to have that orange because, oh, maybe that's. It's like, it doesn't matter. I just need to overcome the fact that I need to open that orange and then eat it.
- [26:27]
B
I think actually you've hit quite an interesting point there in that the reasoning for me is actually one of the issues that causes my paralysis is that I know that I've not had enough. I'm like, why does my head hurt today? Why am I grumpy? Have I only had one cup of coffee to drink all day? Yes. Yes, I have. Shall I go get a Drink.
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A
And I'm stuck three days later.
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B
Three days later. And I'm, like, all shriveled up and salty.
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A
Spongebob when he comes out the water.
- [26:59]
B
Yeah, literally, that's me. But it's the. It's the voice and the reasoning that comes in when I'm in that moment that is the really damaging, disabling moment. It's the internal monologue that happens when I'm in that moment because I try and reason with myself, like, in the. In like, the worst possible way sometimes in that there is a voice that sometimes starts in my head that goes, just do it. Why can't you do it? It's so easy. Just do it. And it almost creates. So I have, like, that executive function moment. And then the voice in my head creates demands because that's like my internal ableism. It's my comparison, and it's essentially like a trauma response to how I felt about myself a lot of my life. So when I'm sat there going, I should probably go and get a drink. I'm dehydrated and I'm grouchy, It's the voice in my head that then sits me in place and creates that sort of demand because I'm like, come on, Simon, you have to do this. You have to do this. Just get up and do it. And then when I don't, it's very, very easy for my brain to go, well, aren't you a piece of shit? Genuinely. Like, that's the response that is created in these moments. And I would say that sort of executive dysfunction stopping me to reach for a glass of water or to go to the toilet before I tinkle myself, or just something as simple as going to. Walking to my car every day and seeing that it probably needs a Hoover out. But the voice that then criticizes me or takes lumps out of me at that moment is the investigator in the moment. He's not necessary. He's not. He's not needed in that moment. And he makes it worse. Like, that's sort of just my experience of. Of how I find a lot of the time when I just sort of go, oh, I should probably do that. And then the negative voice kicks in and just makes it seem ten times harder, like it just makes a mountain out of a molehill.
- [29:02]
A
Yeah, I. I also wonder, like, when it comes to executive dysfunction, is. Is it motivated by a. A fear or an expectation of failure?
- [29:16]
B
Oh, failure, dude has stopped. The fear of failure has stopped me starting so much.
- [29:20]
A
Yeah, it's because. Because it says pda. Is anxiety driven. And I can't disagree with that. But I wonder if, if ED is also anxiety driven or the anxiety of failure. Because the whole idea of demand avoidance is an extreme anxiety driven need for autonomy. We need to be in charge. It leads to the avoidance of demands, even enjoyable ones. And it seems like it's a nervous system threat response, you know, to like, perceived pressure of like a loss of control, I guess.
- [30:02]
B
Well, what I can sort of testify to that is like, work doesn't come to you. You've got to go and get, get work. And we've discussed many times on the reasons as to why people can't get into work. But from my own experience, a lot of it has been, it's not what you know, it's who you know. And I obviously don't always do best in social situations. And a lot of the time I've been in job interviews and the fear of not being liked has made me almost not turn up. Like, the fear of getting a rejection. Like, when I was doing like, auditions and stuff as an actor, I stopped turning up to them because I was afraid of getting a rejection, even though that was 99% of the time. And like, I would just feel so bad about myself if I didn't succeed in it. And a lot of when I was in my burnout phase, it was like, well, it's easier not to have people. It's easier not to do things because then you're not gonna feel shit about it. I'd rather feel shit on my own. Yeah.
- [31:08]
A
I do think a lot of, like both of these are trauma led. Like, you know, we've spoken with Ashley in the past. The first six years of our lives shaped so much of who we're going to be and how we're going to react to the world, you know, and there is a section of people that believe that trauma is what causes ADHD and autism. But obviously, you know, that flies in the face of actual science and physical differences, like the synaptic pruning process. That's so very obvious. Our reaction to stimulants, you know, slowing us down rather than hyping us up. So, you know, it's all well and good people like, oh, it's trauma response. But I do believe that a lot of the behaviors associated with neurodivergence are an extreme trauma response because we're so hypersensitive. So I don't think our hypersensitivity is anything to do with trauma. I think that our hypersensitivity is an evolutionary advantageous and disabling aspect of our neurodivergence. But I definitely think that the hypersensitivity to trauma makes our reactions to everyday tasks that neurotypicals who are might also be traumatized can just do because they seem like normal tasks, whereas their trauma might affect them with something like something big. So somebody getting anxious about their wedding day would be us getting anxious about what trousers we're going to wear today. Like that. I know that's. And I know to anyone listening, that sounds like a crazy. Like, wedding day is the most stressful day of your life. And I'm like, right, but that is my life.
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B
Oh, yeah.
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A
What trousers do I wear today? Or what socks am I gonna wear? Or, like, do I. When I'm laying in bed now and I'm all cozy, do the difficulty in order to get out of that bed because I forgot to clean my teeth, that I end up just a lot of the time. I mean, not a lot of the time. I do clean my teeth quite often because Sylvia makes me. It's a weird relationship, but, yeah, it's. But if I didn't have Sylphia, would I ever clean my teeth? Because I think I would just. And it's not the fact that I'm just like, oh, I don't want to clean my teeth. It's the fact that I forget. And then when I remember, I'm already in a situation where I'm like, no, I don't want to do it.
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B
Oh, dude. How often in a day do we. Do you have that moment where you go, oh, I was meant to do that thing. I'll just remember 10 hours too late.
- [33:56]
A
I could be sitting here right now, and there's one of my friends is, like, in a cinema doing, like, where is he, dude?
- [34:02]
B
I have done. I have been such a friend with that sometimes, and I feel awful. It's not a. Well, that's what I mean. That's the response that comes from it.
- [34:12]
A
You're not a friend. You're just. You just forgot to set a million and a half.
- [34:17]
B
No, I know. It's like, literally, I played golf the other day, dude, and I nearly made myself late because I didn't know what to wear. I was like, I have so many of my lovely outfits, and it's like the one, like, the clothing that I actually spend, like, proper, decent money on. And I have, like, a bit. All the gear. No idea, if I'm honest. And I was literally just stood in front of my wardrobe the other day for like, 10 minutes going, what about Those trousers. These trousers. Do you think the guys will like these trousers? What about those trousers? I looked at my watch and was like, I was meant to be in the car two minutes ago, and I'm stood here in my pants and socks. Great.
- [34:54]
A
So I. I do. I do think that there is this. This worry of. Of embarrassment or failure or just being around other people and being judged. There is that aspect, but. But also, I think that it's an internal judgment, an internal embarrassment, an internal hatred of oneself that also stops us from doing things. I mean, quickly, before the break. I would say that, like, making food is. Is a big thing for me because I. I know I can cook, but I. I have this thing of. For me, my. My motivations of just going and making a quick sandwich and that's my lunch is mostly because I just want to eat and get on. Like, it. It's an inconvenience. Eating during the day, eating for breakfast kind of feels like a thing that I enjoy doing. Eating for dinner feels like an event. Each evening, we all sit down, we. It's like an event, but lunch just. It's just getting in the way. It's just.
- [36:03]
B
Yeah, I'm in the. I'm in a flow state, and then suddenly I go, I should probably eat now.
- [36:07]
A
I'm like, my favorite lunch is literally a sandwich and a packet of crisps and a drink. So, like a meal deal. Like a meal deal from Tesla.
- [36:14]
B
I love it's. Just give it. Give it to me now.
- [36:17]
A
Just give it to me now. Just done. Easy. As easy as it possibly can be. That is what I want for lunch because it's just getting in the way of all the other things that I'm doing.
- [36:27]
B
And I'm like that with sleep. Like, genuinely. I remember saying in my assessment, if I could take a pill, that I never had to sleep again for the rest of my life, I would take it. Because I go to bed and I'm.
- [36:38]
A
Like, I hate sleeping.
- [36:39]
B
I don't. I don't want to go to sleep. I've got. I've got too much. I've got things I want to do.
- [36:43]
A
It's a waste of my life.
- [36:44]
B
And then I wake up the next day and I feel concussed.
- [36:47]
A
Like Bon Jovi said, I sleep when I'm dead. All right, let's have the last break, and then we'll get into the section of how we can help. I guess we'll try.
- [36:58]
B
Back in a sec. Have you ever felt stuck in patterns that don't serve? You struggled with stress or wanted to connect more deeply with yourself. Then I have to introduce you to a friend of the podcast, Ashley Bentley of integrated coaching, breathwork and Hypnotherapy. Ashley is a highly experienced clinical hypnotherapist and coach specializing in working with neurodivergent minds. Through a unique blend of integrative coaching, breathwork and hypnotherapy, Ashley helps people rewire subconscious patterns, regulate their nervous systems, step into more empowered versions of themselves. Whether you're dealing with addiction, anxiety, burnout, or struggles with self acceptance, Ashley offers practical and science backed tools tailored just for you. Her unique methods combine neuroscience, storytelling, subconscious transformation to create real, lasting change. Jordan and I can personally attest to the profound and transformative effects of her sessions, which have been life changing. She does all of these sessions online, meaning she can work with you no matter where you are in the world. If you're ready to break free from old patterns and start living with more clarity, confidence and connection, go to Bit ly ashleynde to book a free consultation or learn more. Welcome back to I don't want to.
- [38:28]
A
Do it anymore neither.
- [38:31]
B
See you later.
- [38:32]
A
Goodbye my executive dysfunction/pda/childishness.
- [38:38]
B
I am intrigued, listeners. If I go welcome back from the break. Do you all just log off? Just turn it off says you're listening to. No, I'm not. Bye.
- [38:50]
A
Right, so okay, if, if we, if we break them down so. Completely blank then. Sorry about everyone. We. We didn't go off air. My brain literally just stopped working.
- [39:09]
B
So I'll edit a second of that silence out so people aren't as a.
- [39:12]
A
Yeah, it was like seven hours. Okay, so first of all, this is, this is how you would tell them apart. So after the event, after the, the critical event has happened and you're feeling all bad and annoyed at yourself and thinking you're lazy and people are calling you useless when you're not and you're not, you can tell them apart. You evaluate the why is the person stuck? Because they can't figure out the steps, like what to do?
- [39:47]
B
What do I do next?
- [39:48]
A
Yeah, executive dysfunction or because the pressure to do it feels overwhelming and unsafe pda. So that, that, that is a very simplistic way of being able to say, okay, this is, this is the reason why if that's what you need, observe the response. Does the person improve with tools or for organization executive dysfunction or do they need the demand itself to be reframed or removed pda? So in that sense it might be helpful to understand a difference, not because it matters to you in that moment. But it actually might help people around you or you as a parent with your child, if you're listening, to understand the difference between why your child is not doing something. Is it because of executive dysfunctional or pda? So your approach to that particular thing and, and I know for a lot of parents, and it definitely was for me, is getting your kids dressed in the morning. They do not like to put clothes on. I remember when they were little they were. Well, literally we're just talking about what pair of trousers should we wear. But a lot of it, you know, and it's like to find out what the problem is rather than just fighting your kid and getting annoyed with your kid and getting angry that they won't get dressed. Maybe find out why. It could be a labels issue, maybe there's a label scratching them, but they don't know how to get that across. Maybe that's, you know, like a sensitivity to trousers. I have to wear special trousers at work. I don't like the company uniform. I buy my own trousers that look like the company uniform but a much, much better, like silky quality because their ones are very, very rough on my scratchy. Just the idea of wearing their cheap ass freaking trousers makes me cringe. So I had to buy better quality trousers. Better quality by the way, was, was Tesco's own brand were better quality than, than what I was given by my work.
- [41:53]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I can imagine. Yeah.
- [41:56]
A
So it wasn't like I went and.
- [41:57]
B
Bought uniform trousers or something.
- [42:02]
A
Yeah. So it's, it's always great to understand like the motivations of why something is happening in order to just one maybe just be there. Because I think a lot of the time that's what we need. We just need someone to understand it and not reprimand us or judge us for it.
- [42:23]
B
That makes a lot of sense because just evaluating the why. Doing homework after school used to be a battle for me and my parents because a lot of the time my parents thought that I didn't want to do it, whereas actually I didn't know what to do. It's like I was looking at sort of my homework and I was like, I'm sort of stuck on a question and I don't really know how to move forward. And then I see all the other questions written underneath the one that I'm stuck on and I start to go, I don't think I can do this. Whereas where I think the PDA comes in is that's the overwhelming. It's like I go, I Don't know what to do next. And then I get overwhelmed because I know I should. I should know what to do next. And then the feeling of unsafeness comes from the fear of failing or letting anybody down. That's a big sort of trauma response for me is letting people down or not achieving your potential, let's just say. And one of the really great things that I have sort of taken into adult life is that work sometimes still feels like homework, but if I have somebody that just sits with me, just with me while I do, releases me from it. It, like, gives me a bit of sort of confidence that I can do it. Because, like, when I left university and I went into the real world, I didn't really know what to do next. I was like, what do I do now? And I just felt stuck, just sort of in place. And I think if I'd known that and recognized that, I would have been able to have communicate. Communicated what I needed support with, which is, could I speak to somebody who helps you get in the workplace or things like that? But it never occurred to me because I was just stuck in a panic.
- [44:15]
A
Yeah, no, I get that. I think it's also important to understand what it. What it looks like, you know, from. From an outside perspective, you know, because when you're going through it, you don't always know how to help yourself. So we do rely on. On the people around us, if we can, to sort of say, you know, are you okay? Can I help you with that? Or giving you that motivation? Like, I know that our other halves, if they see us struggling with something, they. They would be like, you've got there.
- [44:50]
B
You're.
- [44:51]
A
You're good. It's. It's. We. We've got, like, personal cheerleaders.
- [44:54]
B
Yeah. Yes. That motivates my cheerleader. Yeah. Yeah, very true.
- [44:58]
A
So rather than us sitting there feeling like we're on our own and we have to figure this all out by ourselves, we. We have amazing people around us that. That. That help us through those moments. Like, we can help them through. Through their moments. That's. I think that's the beauty of neurodivergent relationships. At their core is the understanding of each other. But it. What it looks like is like, I won't. I can't even think about doing something, and I'm gonna, like, a freeze. Like, you just, like. Like you said before when you were like, oh, I need to go out of the house. And then you just. You just freeze. You just. And you're just like, come on, come on, let's do this. You know, we can have meltdowns because of it. Because of just like, why can't I do that? And just like the anger.
- [45:44]
B
Then I'd go and hide, dude. Like, if I had to go and get the train, nine times out of 10, I would just go and sit in a toilet. Just sit there.
- [45:54]
A
Oh, see that. That's creative avoidance.
- [45:57]
B
That's okay.
- [45:57]
A
That's interesting that, that, that's using your environment in order to avoid something. I. I used to do that with a job that I hated. This is like 20 something years ago when I worked as a Sainsbury security guard. I hated being on the floor. I hated it. It was the worst job I ever had. So I used. I. I used to smoke. I haven't smoked for like.
- [46:20]
B
No, I didn't know that you used to smoke.
- [46:22]
A
Yeah, yeah, I. I smoked. Yeah. I just dressed.
- [46:26]
B
I cannot imagine. I cannot imagine you ever smoking. I never even thought about that.
- [46:32]
A
It seems strange to me me now that I used to. I mean, I. I quit. Do you know, I just quickly. So I. Sidebar. Just quick. I quit. When watching an episode of How I met your mother. And there's an episode where you find out that they actually all smoke. You never see them smoke, but they all smoke. And they all said that they were going to quit together. And they're on the roof, I think it is. And they literally said, this is our last cigarette. And I said, okay, that's what I'll do. So I went out into my garden, I lit a cigarette, I said, this is my last ever cigarette. And I finished about halfway through it, put it out. And I've never smoked a cigarette since.
- [47:09]
B
True. It's so funny that that is how I quit smoking as well, you know, not the how I met your mother thing. But I was weird if it was. It was very odd, wasn't it? I'm on the roof in the background. Like, yeah, man. But no, I sat on my balcony during COVID and I got halfway through a cigarette and I looked at it and I went. I've never liked doing this.
- [47:27]
A
Yeah, they're gross.
- [47:28]
B
I think I'm just gonna stop and I can't. And I sort of put it down. I smelt my fingers and was like disgusting. And I've never picked up a. I've never really picked up a cigarette since.
- [47:39]
A
I actually started after my brother died. And it was way of self harming that I. Because I knew that cigarettes kill you. I knew that cigarettes would harm me, so I did it to harm myself. It was, it was a form of self harming. And then I just got addicted to it. But anyway, back to the show.
- [47:56]
B
Welcome back.
- [47:57]
A
Yeah, welcome back. It's. It's like a fight flight freeze. That's, that, that, that's the sort of reaction you're looking for and that's with both of these things because they, they do look similar. They, the reactions are similar. It's the motivations that are different. Which is why you know that, you know, to a certain extent you, as an outside, from an outside perspective, if you understand the motivations behind them not being able to do something because it might be something that occurs every single day, like cleaning your teeth, like, you know, making lunch, like going to school. Finding the reasons rather than just getting annoyed at the situation. That's, that's the most important thing that, that you as a parent or the, you as a carer or a loved one can do for your person. And a really good way of doing it is just lowering, lowering the pressure. You know, making it like this isn't a big deal because like I said, we feel like this is a big deal. This is a huge deal. This tiny, tiny thing that everybody does every single day. We have turned a puddle into an ocean.
- [49:12]
B
Yeah.
- [49:13]
A
To, to get over a puddle. It is now an ocean. And, and it, and, and we always look like we're blowing things out of proportion. And because that's not, that's not, not true. We are blowing things out of proportion. But it's not deliberate.
- [49:28]
B
I'm not deliberately being dramatic.
- [49:30]
A
Yeah, exactly. It's just the way that my brain catastrophizes every little thing and turns the day to day things into the most horrifically, aw, even shit. I want to do like playing my new game, which I definitely will 100% do once I get back from New Zealand. Offering different choices, like, you know, giving ourselves, you know, different options, I think is always a good one. So it's like, okay, you know, you don't have to do this, but maybe you could do this instead. And I think, I think that especially with kids, schools need to be so much more relaxed when it comes to uniforms.
- [50:12]
B
They've got to be flexible.
- [50:14]
A
They've got to be so much more flexible.
- [50:16]
B
Yeah.
- [50:16]
A
Because I'm the sort of person, I don't, I don't really like wearing belts. I will wear belts if I have to.
- [50:21]
B
Oh, sitting down, dude, and feeling the belt press into you can ruin my.
- [50:25]
A
Day that I, I have a thing on my seat belt. And when I'm talking about belts, I'm talking about like obviously on the trousers, but with my seat belt where it wraps around my stomach. It aggravates me when it touches me.
- [50:40]
B
If my T shirt comes up and the belt touches my naked skin.
- [50:44]
A
No, you're killing me. You're killing me. So what I did when I got my. When I got my new car, what I did is I've got. You can get these clips that attach to your belt and you can make the belt looser. And it doesn't affect the functionality of the belt by making it. So it doesn't, it doesn't sit tight on you.
- [51:02]
B
Yeah.
- [51:02]
A
Clips. And it provides a thing where you get a little bit of looseness. It's like going like a couple of buckles out on, on a. On a. On the belt, on the trousers.
- [51:12]
B
Yeah, it makes sense.
- [51:13]
A
Game changing. I don't sit there shifting and fiddling and pulling the. My belt. I'm concentrating on freaking driving instead.
- [51:19]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [51:20]
A
But yeah, it's. It's like, it's. It is so difficult sometimes understanding what the problem is. But I think that that is the key is doing that investigation after the event in order to then prevent the event from getting to a catastrophizing state in the future and make your loved one feel like it. Like it's okay, you can do this.
- [51:51]
B
I was just about to add to that as well. One of the things that has really helped me with this, obviously doing the investigating, but creating collaborative problem solving in a lot of. A lot of my issues around it. A shame related. But I feel embarrassed almost not just admitting that I'm struggling with this, but accepting it, that I'm struggling with it. And something for me, I hate supermarkets. The too bright. I don't like the hot cold thing and I just want to eat. I don't want to have to think about all the. Like just going to the supermarket and buying ingredients for a meal does my head in. But being able to communicate that with my partner and her, not judge me for it and kind of go, okay, let's do an online shop. And I will sit and do it on the laptop. You tell me what you want and I will take it off your plate for you. But when it comes, help me put it away. I go, yeah, I can do that. I can do that. And that has been really helpful and something as well. I have a friend who works from home. I work from home. Every couple of weeks we will go to each other's house and just work there. And having somebody sat next to me while I do work and they do work, really, really helps me break through.
- [53:12]
A
That's a great idea.
- [53:14]
B
It really, really helps. Like, shadow work really, really helps. Like, if I really good. If I want to sit down and read a book, it takes a bit of time, but if Caris is sat with me and also reading a book, I feel like I can meet her at her level a lot easier than trying to get to my own. And it's just sort of like collaborative play. Like, if I can make the situation I'm struggling with sort of fun in a way, that has helped. But no, the shadow work, with work. If I have to do a really heavy edit, I will. And I literally have it on Monday. I've got a lot of editing to do. And I messaged my friend yesterday and was like, do you want to come round? We'll walk the dog together. I'll do edits and you just sit on your laptop and do your bit. And he was like, oh, that really helped me because I've got a lot of crap on Monday I just don't want to do. And that's what we occasionally do. And we've both found it's really beneficial because we almost feed off, you know, like we were talking about in a previous episode about the energy exchange.
- [54:18]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [54:19]
B
It feels the same. It feels that similar sort of like energy exchange of, well, I believe you can do it and you believe I can do it. Let's do it together. That. That's. That's really helped me.
- [54:30]
A
There you go. Okay. So thank you for listening. I. I hope it helped understanding the differences and. Yeah, I'm all out of spoons.
- [54:43]
B
Yeah, me too, man. Thank you so much for listening. We will be back tomorrow with a hot topic and Ashley will be with you for Mindful Mondays every single Monday. Thank you so much for listening. Be kind, be safe nightly.
- [54:54]
A
Bye.
- [54:58]
B
Thanks for tuning in to the neurodivergent Experience. We hope today's episode sparks something for you. Whether it's a new idea, a bit of validation, or just a moment of connection, remember, new episodes are every week, so be sure to join us for the next one for more conversations and insights into the neurodivergent Experience. If you've enjoyed this podcast, help us grow. You can do that by rating and reviewing this show. Your support makes a huge difference in helping us reach more people who could benefit from these conversations. You can connect with us on social media, find us on Instagram, Facebook, tick tock. Just search for the neurodivergent Experience. Thank you again for listening and until next time. Take care of yourself. You're not alone in this journey. This is Paige desorbo from Gigli Squad. Boost Mobile gives you the same network coverage, speed and service you're used to, just at a more affordable price. Why pay more if you don't have to? Offering reliable nationwide coverage backed by a 30 day money back guarantee. Love your service or get your money back, no questions asked. Visit your nearest Boost Mobile store or head to boostmobile.com to learn more. After 30 gigabytes, customers may experience slower speeds. Customers who cancel within 30 days of activation will have Boost service fees refunded, activation fees if applicable, and phone payments will not be refunded.