Simon Scott (3:14)

Yes. That one's not organized by numbers, so it doesn't exist.

Jordan James (3:17)

Yeah. This is 100 episodes of the Neurodivergent Experience main Thursday podcast. And we are. Are tired. And.

Simon Scott (3:28)

Yeah.

Jordan James (3:28)

Back again. I've had my monster episode.

Simon Scott (3:31)

Still tired.

Advertisement Voice (3:32)

Yeah.

Jordan James (3:33)

But I'm. Dude, I'm actually energized by the fact that I'm doing this with my best friend.

Simon Scott (3:41)

Yeah.

Jordan James (3:42)

In the world. And I don't know, because there's been times where this has been so difficult for me to just get over the hump of just like, okay, I've got to do this episode. I've got to do this episode.

Simon Scott (3:53)

Oh, yeah, man. Me too. I've had those moments.

Jordan James (3:55)

But as soon as it's like going to the gym, for me, it's like, I don't want to go to the gym. I don't want to go to the gym. Once I'm in the gym and I'm working out, I don't want to leave the gym. I absolutely love it. But getting there is hard, and getting onto this podcast can be hard, but once from here, it's Sylvia's like, are you done yet? Are you done yet?

Simon Scott (4:19)

Oh, you know, if I didn't have to edit the damn thing, I could. I could do three, four episodes a week. And I. It. It's crazy because the amount of times that I go, oh, I'm recording a insert time here with. With Jordan for the podcast, and I do get a little bit like, oh, you know, what am I going to talk about? Oh, does anybody really want to hear what I've got to say? And all this sort of thing? And then as soon as I sit down and log on the screen with you, I'm just hanging out with my mate, and I forget that we're pressing record half the time. It's only when I'm editing it where I'm like, oh, yeah, we recorded all of that. I forgot that we were. Yeah, somebody else here. Hello.

Jordan James (4:53)

When. When I listen back, I'm just like, man, I talk a lot. I'm. I'm fascinating, even. I like to hear myself talk. But there's a lot of me. I'm just like, I'm. I'm trying. I'm trying my best to be like, oh, yes, Scott is also here because.

Simon Scott (5:16)

Hey, but we've had 100 episodes now. We've had quite a lot of reps.

Jordan James (5:22)

I think we're well.

Simon Scott (5:23)

I think we're doing very well. Yeah, we're doing so.

Jordan James (5:26)

Mentioning sort of the. The. The fun side of being neurodivergent and the fact that I am the ultimate ADHD outwardly hyperactive person that I know.

Simon Scott (5:35)

Of and I as well. You're like the king, the AD4K is what I would.

Jordan James (5:42)

I'm just, I am all the hyperactive that is in adhd, but it can be very self sabotaging with mine. And I know for you, your behaviors. I think that there is two ways of looking at it and I want to look at it in the lived experience way because I could be going on about the neuroscience of it or the DSM 5 version of it because when I started researching this subject immediately it comes up with like head banging, scratching, you know, meltdowns. And I'm like, right, that is varios. Vario, Vario. Stereotypical of them to just.

Simon Scott (6:30)

That's a U2 song that isn't it?

Jordan James (6:32)

Maybe that's the vertigo, but.

Simon Scott (6:37)

Sorry, go on. Self sabotage.

Jordan James (6:39)

Fine. Brain's still working about. So I decided to put together this self. A list of self sabotaging behaviors for ADHD and autism. I've trying to keep them separate just because I think it makes other people happier. But everybody knows how I feel about separating them. But I am separating them to a certain extent, but most of them freaking overlap anyway.

Simon Scott (7:08)

Yeah.

Jordan James (7:10)

So I, I've. What I want to do is I want to talk about a few of these and then how we've experienced them.

Simon Scott (7:18)

Yeah.

Jordan James (7:18)

And then in the, in the next bit after the break, we can talk about a different view and how our families and our loved ones are affected. And then if you're still listening by our third section, we're going to talk about how we have managed to put things in place, put camouflages, deliberate camouflage in place to help us not do these things in public because they can be very, very negative. That it was self, self sabotaging.

Simon Scott (7:55)

Yeah.

Jordan James (7:55)

As, as it were self destructive. So I'm going to start off with. And like I said, this is, this is an ADHD thing, but this is an aut thing as well. Procrastination and avoidance.

Simon Scott (8:09)

Oh yeah.

Jordan James (8:10)

So this isn't a new subject but I'm hoping we can put a new spin on it. So like you know, delaying tasks due to overwhelm, fear of failure, you know, perfectionism, almost like perfection is your own worst enemy, but it, you think that it's your best friend.

Simon Scott (8:31)

Oh wow. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Jordan James (8:38)

So yeah. So I'm, I'm going to start with you is what, what moment has your search for, you know, said perfectionism, you know, led to you just not wanting to do. I know we talked about, you know, Ed yesterday and, and not. Not yesterday. I mean, we did record it yesterday, but it was a week ago.

Simon Scott (9:04)

But it was a week ago. Of course it was. Of course it was.

Jordan James (9:07)

Right now I am. I am in New Zealand right at this moment in time. But not in this moment in time anyway. But yeah, let's try and put a different spin on it because obviously this is just one thing. You know, what, what would you say that you were like, you know, you were thriving to. To thinking, I need to be the best at this, but it has stopped you doing it because you didn't believe you could be the best at it.

Simon Scott (9:30)

Oh, dude. So living in London, very competitive, rat race environment. I love sound design and I love writing. I've written drafts for like four or five different plays. I've tried to, like, write a musical once. I've tried to get loads of individual projects off the ground and. Because I could see the fault in my own work. Because first and foremost, when I was doing journalism, I was a critique. You know, I would write about films, I'd write about music. And when it came time to write my own, I was my own worst critique. And it stopped me from doing a lot. And I turned down a lot of opportunities out of fear of not being perfect. And I come back to that Ricky Bobby phrase of if you're not first, you're last. And so much of my, like, self reflection on that is, nobody's perfect. Like, nobody's perfect. Nobody's ever written anything that's perfect. It's all subject to the person that's holding it and reading it and what it means to them. And there have been like, to the point of if I was writing a play in my head, I wasn't going, oh, it's got to be a play that entertains people. I was like, it's got to be a play that changes people's lives. It's got to be a generational thing. And like, that's not ego driven, in my opinion. That is self sabotaging for perfection.

Jordan James (11:11)

Yeah.

Simon Scott (11:11)

Because I never took any of these things that I wrote to anybody. I never contacted a dramaturg or even shared them with anybody to the point of they're on a laptop that I no longer own.

Jordan James (11:23)

Oh, man, that's sad.

Simon Scott (11:25)

It is. It's really sad because I have, like, a lot of things that I've tried my hand at and I've really wanted to do. And it's that Jack of all Trades Master of none, but better now to be the master of summer. What? I can't remember the phrase exactly, but that is what has curtailed a lot with me, is that I was a critic and I was beholden to other people's critics, so I just didn't do it. I just never, never went for it.

Jordan James (11:55)

Yeah. Would you say that that is an equal amount of like self critique as well as being afraid of others critique, or would one outweigh the other?

Simon Scott (12:04)

Was both. Like, I was like a 50.

Jordan James (12:06)

50.

Simon Scott (12:06)

Oh, dude. I was very beholden to what people thought. The idea of putting myself out there and failing and having ridicule. Like, I remember I did a writing seminar with somebody and I was reading a monologue that I'd written and a guy sniggered.

Jordan James (12:20)

Oh.

Simon Scott (12:24)

Yeah. And the reason as to why he did that is because he knew it was good. And he was, he was in competition with me because he had built his whole Persona around I'm the writer in our friendship group. And I wrote and I was sort of reading it to him. Not because I wanted him to tell me it was good. I wanted to feel like I was a part of the group. And after that I stopped turning up.

Jordan James (12:49)

Yeah. I've got a different thing in mind in my own head, but just quickly, like when, when I first started getting into photography and I was invited to this photography club in. In Horseshoe. My lip. And I. I was rather nervous because I didn't know if I'd be good enough.

Simon Scott (13:09)

Yeah.

Jordan James (13:10)

And there's like levels that, that you get put in when once you get put in this, you know, real life, in person group, most of it was sort of retirees and older people.

Simon Scott (13:22)

Hobbyists.

Advertisement Voice (13:23)

Yeah.

Jordan James (13:23)

And I didn't feel like I fit in any way, but there are a lot of people there that, that already knew who I was because I was on Facebook. You know, I wasn't as big as I am now on Facebook, but locally a lot of people knew me and knew my photography.

Simon Scott (13:39)

Yeah.

Jordan James (13:40)

Which I didn't know. So I was going in there thinking, oh, I'm not good enough to be here. Because I was looking at some people's pictures and I was like, wow, these, these are, these are fantastic. I. I can't do that. And then literally the guy who was running it, it was like the chairman, and he was a member of this sort of photography organization of the UK and stuff like that. And he had these awards and he come up to me and goes, oh, John, I'm. I'm so glad that you're Here we're, you know, we're, we're so happy that, that, that you, that you've come along. And I was like, really? I. What, what group do you think that I belong in? I'll probably just start in, in the bottom group. Right. And he's like, well, no. And he said, he said, you're so good, we might have to make you your own group. And I'm like, oh, oh, oh.

Simon Scott (14:31)

I've experienced that.

Jordan James (14:33)

Did not think I was that good at photography. I genuinely did. And it took me so long to be like, oh, no, I'm. I'm bloody so good at it.

Simon Scott (14:42)

This is why I've not done am drum, dude. A lot of people are like, oh, just do it. I can't.

Jordan James (14:47)

Yeah, I loved. I've always wanted to do amateur dramatics. I've always wanted to do that because I was always really good at acting when I was a kid. But then I went for a role as Fagan in Oliver Twist and was. Was passed over by, by a kid whose mummy worked at the school.

Simon Scott (15:06)

Ah, yes, of course.

Jordan James (15:08)

And I thought I was then gonna be one of the, one of the boys, you know, the, the dodgy kids. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dodger kids. Yeah. And I ended up being man that sells potatoes. And I just pushed a potato cut across the thing. Didn't even have any line. And I was like. I was told by the amateur, you know, sorry, the drama teacher, because I was doing theater studies. I was told by the drama teacher that I was like, really good and I, I couldn't understand what I'd done wrong. I've. To this day I don't understand what I did wrong. I know that I was good enough to do it, but I've never tried to do anything like that ever since. But I was told that I was a really good actor and many neurodivergent people. Because we act every day. Life.

Simon Scott (16:00)

Yeah.

Jordan James (16:01)

Which is what we'll talk about in, in the last bit.

Simon Scott (16:03)

Yeah, definitely. I mean, I've, I've had moments where like, I've done a lot of walk on roles and extra roles in like film and tv. And every single time I'm always in the big group and I always end up at the front. And a lot of the times people have been like, oh, who's your agent? What, what company do you work with? And I'm just like, oh, I've just kind of rocked up on the day dude people. And I always feel like I stand out. But that almost makes me feel a little uncomfortable now because I put pressure on myself to be good and I almost take it a little too seriously. Like when I was like 18, the local town that I lived in had a quite a big theater and they were doing Oliver and I auditioned for Fagan and I smashed it. Dude. I did Fagin when I was 14 and parents were complaining at my school. They'd hired an adult actor for a kid.

Jordan James (16:52)

Yeah. I remember you saying, it's so weird that we went for the same role.

Simon Scott (16:55)

Yeah. But like people. Apparently there's still pictures of my performance at the school, which is mad. So it was nearly 20 years ago, but they ended up giving it to somebody else in the adult thing because he couldn't handle losing to a kid. And I was like, okay, that's cool. But it also has now sort of put me in this really weird place where I am stuck in this negative self talk of feeling the need to be brilliant and perfect or I'm not gonna do it. And also worrying about upsetting other people's feelings and being a people pleaser. So I just end up not doing few things that I would quite like to do.

Jordan James (17:32)

Yeah. So, I mean, I, I would just quickly, before we get on to the next thing I. I would have said. This podcast is actually one of. One of the many, many things that I've procrastinated because I. I thought that I wasn't going to be good enough or, you know, it was like it was going to make me feel bad because of the rejection sensitivity dysphoria that I was going to get rejected because no one was going to listen and all the things I'd done before that. My book's been really successful, my page has been successful, my photography's been successful.

Simon Scott (18:00)

Yeah.

Jordan James (18:00)

Yeah. And I didn't think any of those things would be successful, but it seems like everything that I'm. It's like everything I touched turns to gold. It's not like that. It's the. It's the fact that like, I do lots of things and they just seem to be successful. And I was like, you know, am I pushing the boat out that. Do people really want to listen to me talk?

Simon Scott (18:19)

I have that now, dude.

Jordan James (18:21)

Yeah. I mean, there's a way I still do. I sort of joke about it a lot, but at the end of the day, people are still listening. I. I think so. Yeah. This. This podcast was definitely one of those things that we definitely procrastinate. Procrastinated over for so long. But you know, part of that, which is another thing that I've got Written down is the, it's just negative self talk, you know, so like a critical inner voice, you know, it's like fueled by early experiences of our lives where we, we, because we're different, we're, and we're treated so differently that we, we have this critique of ourselves that we're, we're not right, we're, we're, we don't belong or we're incapable of doing things because we are held to the same standards as neurotypicals in an, in a neurotypical world rather than being held to our own standards of neurodivergence. And it can, it can massively affect our self belief.

Simon Scott (19:30)

Oh, massively. And I think about a lot of the spaces that I've been in where I've tried to be successful, shall we say. And nine times out of 10 when I have stuck my neck out, it's something related to my neurodivergence that has created like, I don't know whether it's like red flags for people or it's just made me stand out. And I actually got to the point where I was like, if I just do my job and keep my head down and I'm a wallflower, I'm not gonna feel self fulfilled or like I'm pushing myself, but at least no one's pushing me. You know what I mean by that? Not as in the sense of oh, you can do it, as in, I'm not getting that pushback or oh, what do you know about that? Or I'm not, you know, putting myself in the firing line, not just for critique, but for like social ridicule. Because that was the big thing for me is that I don't want to put my hand up in a, in a work meeting or an audition and try and be an outside the box thinker. When people don't hear what I've said, they hear, you know, they look at who said it. And the amount of times where I've just wanted the sort of like the floor to just disappear under my feet because I've tried to be myself.

Jordan James (20:46)

Do you know what's really weird when it comes to this? I, I do have that inner voice. We, you know, I've talked about him a lot of, of like self critiquing and, and. But I, I am, I am a, I, I'm, I'm kind of a weird. So I, I feel like I'm, I'm like a weird paradox where I don't believe in myself. But outwardly I, I absolutely believe in myself. Like there There is this part of me that is so confident I will walk into any situation and be like, okay, I, I'm definitely going to rock the, out of this. I am smart, I am capable, I am eloquent, I am knowledgeable. I am going to kick ass in my, in this situation. And then there's the other part of me that's like, you are going to ruin everything.

Simon Scott (21:36)

Just shut the up, dude.

Jordan James (21:39)

So I, I have done it so many times where I've just opened my mouth and just words have just tumbled out like, like word vomit. And I, afterwards, I've just gone, what did I do? What did I just do? I like, I can't have an inner monologue where I'm just thinking something in like a meeting or something like that. And I, I don't know why I just say everything that's in my head and I'm like, that, that has, that has definitely pissed people off. You have, you are, you are self sabotaging because you are, you, you are saying too much. You are being too confident in, in what you're saying and, and the way you're saying it because of that miscommunication of neurodivergent, neurotypical, like literal language, like an actual language.

Simon Scott (22:39)

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jordan James (22:41)

I, I do feel like I've just rubbed people up the wrong way in situations where I really shouldn't be doing that.

Simon Scott (22:49)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jordan James (22:52)

Well, let's, let's, let's have a break and, and then we can talk about like how, how certain behaviors affect our families and, and our loved ones.

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Simon Scott (24:31)

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Jordan James (26:23)

I don't know why, I just, I just, I need to do that. I need to get this out. It's like a sim.

Simon Scott (26:27)

Yeah, it is. I, I do it regularly. I also throw in like Little John ad libs. Remember him? I was like yeah. What? Just randomly. But that's for another day. But no, we've been talking about self sabotaging behaviors and not necessarily just how they affect us. It's our loved ones around us. And one of the things that has often been difficult for the people around me and my family members that, you know, in my support network is my impulsivity and my inability to realize when I'm taking risks, when I really, really don't have to. A lot of the time it's been a hunt for stimulation or in a lot of times when I've had poor mental health, it's Been an escape. So, I mean, I'm intrigued. Dude. One of the things that I've struggled with and I've not really talked about on the show and I think one day I will, is substance use. That was something that I was not smart with. So.

Jordan James (27:34)

You don't have to.

Simon Scott (27:35)

No, no, it's okay. It's okay. It's just. We'll sort of go from like, a basic level as you and I both used to smoke. We both used to be cigarette smokers.

Jordan James (27:42)

Yeah, I, I used to drink. I mean, I never, I was never a big drinker, but I definitely drunk more than I, I do now. I think this year, this, so this month, the first month, I have had one can of Guinness. That is the only alcohol I have consumed is, is a can of Guinness.

Simon Scott (28:00)

I don't think I've had, I genuinely don't think I've had a drink.

Jordan James (28:04)

No, I, I, I only had it because I just really, really fancied it the other day. I'd done all the training and at work and I was just stressed out. Yeah, I was like, I, I actually want a beer today. I just want one. But yeah, I just, I don't really drink that often. We just don't. Yeah. But like you said, in, in the past, I've, I think my risk taking is, has gone from, like, literally jumping off things that, that I shouldn't do. Yeah. Physical risk taking, definitely. Driving stupidly when I was a kid, you know, like that dopamine. I still believe that, that people shouldn't drive until they're at least 21. Let that brain settle in. Because, because teenagers make dumb decisions anyway. Because literally the frontal lobe is not connected to the amygdala. So they're making decisions based on feelings and emotions rather than lived experience and, and understanding the consequences of your actions. Like, let's overtake it. This blind bend, sort of. I never did that, but I definitely feel like I drove too fast and I was doing stupid things when I was younger. But that, I think that's kind of part of the risk taking is like, we do have this, this young brain where we, we do have the synaptic pathways of a teenager still.

Simon Scott (29:41)

Yeah.

Jordan James (29:42)

So you know, that, that impulsivity is literally like being a kid. You know, when you're a kid, like you, you build a ramp out of like, cardboard giant jumper canyon.

Simon Scott (29:55)

Oh, dude, I've done tombstone off cliffs into lakes and stuff before. And I. You read horror stories and I look back on it and I was like, s. You did some dumb, dumb but like not just that as well. I think one of the things that's difficult with risk taking impulsivity when you're near a divergent is that need to fit in will push you to do dumb, like to prove yourself with people. It's like there's, you know, I've. In my 20s, I, I mucked around with drugs quite a lot and there would be times where I would push it because I wanted to impress people, did myself some harm and I have never really had experience with this, but I've known quite a lot of people who have had a lot of problems with gambling.

Jordan James (30:41)

Yeah, I'm so lucky. I never got into that.

Simon Scott (30:43)

Like, I was literally talking with a buddy of mine the other day who was talking about RFK with me and he was like, oh, they've got these people like Tucker Carlson or Ben Shapiro or whatever that are going, oh, ADHD and autism. You know, we need to fix all sorts of stuff. And then they just throw to gambling ads in the middle of their podcasts.

Jordan James (31:05)

Well, that's because there's just.

Simon Scott (31:06)

Yeah.

Jordan James (31:07)

Freaking evil soul sucking pieces of.

Simon Scott (31:10)

But that's what I mean.

Jordan James (31:10)

I hate gambling ads.

Simon Scott (31:12)

Yeah. But like one of the things that shocks me and you don't really think about it until you read it is how many gambling ads are in football, like on the football dates. And none of them.

Jordan James (31:26)

All over basketball as well.

Simon Scott (31:27)

Yeah.

Jordan James (31:29)

All over YouTube.

Simon Scott (31:30)

And it's just like, yeah, war everywhere. Boom. Gambling bomb. Gambling bum gambling. And I used to be friends with the guy who I'm not friends with now, but he completely and utterly his life up because he had a really bad gambling addiction to the point of his wages would come in, they were.

Jordan James (31:48)

Gone and which would have his family's life.

Simon Scott (31:51)

Oh, dude, he lost his fiance, left him his friend. We, we. A lot of people cut contact with him because he was also an impulsive liar as well. And it got to the point where a lot of us, including myself, were like, I don't even know this guy. I just know the person that he's trying and it was very sad but at the same time, can't. You've got to protect your circle.

Jordan James (32:16)

I mean I, I got addicted to playing Gears of War online, you know, when it first ever came out on the 360. And I know I've talked about this before because it was, it was, it could have been a make or break situation. Sylvia could have left me and I wouldn't have blamed her book because I was so miserable. I look back now and it was Obvious. I, I was having, I was depressed. I was having depression. I, I hated my job. I, I hated having to go and do my job. I, I loved being at home, but I hated my job so much. Which ironically, it's the same job that I'm in now, I think. Oh no, no, sorry, it's not, it's not. But to be fair, I don't particularly like doing security in any way. It is just my job. But this, this job I had was just so awful. It was so boring and I just got treated like. I just hated going there. So any. When I was home, I didn't want to engage with anyone. I just, I just wanted to get online and, and kill.

Simon Scott (33:21)

And when you're good at it as well, you feel like that that was the worst thing.

Jordan James (33:26)

Yeah. Because I was literally in the top, top 10,000 in the whole world. So you're talking about millions and millions of players and I'm, I'm like top 1% plus 7,000 people. I was so good at it and it, it was addicting because it was the first thing that I'd ever really felt like I was really good at.

Simon Scott (33:49)

And you were respected as well. Like people respect you when you like high levels and stuff.

Jordan James (33:55)

I had friends on that game, so I was, I was engaging with friends, which I'd never done before. People respected me, which has never happened before. I was really good at it. Basically. It's the same thing as with my photography, but video game wise, but with my photography that gets me out of the house. The, the, the games just made me sit in a dark room and ignore my kids and my family. That was the time that most affected my family was. And it was, it was a need for escape, it was a need for dopamine, it was a need for, you know, to be liked as well.

Simon Scott (34:33)

Yeah. This is why I find mobile games a little bit distressing because I know I've known a lot of people that have lost a lot of money on like just really benign mobile games. So I used to have it with FIFA, dude. I used to spend a ridiculous amount of money on the, on the gambling system within FIFA. I had to call it, dude. I had to cut it out my life because it was getting to the point where I just wanted to only play that game and not really do a lot else. But it is difficult when your impulsivities, you get good at it and then sort of people respect you for it because like, even when I was hanging around London and was doing like music journalism and stuff and I Was I was a cool guy, dude. Like, I had not a reputation, but people respected me because I was somebody that used to hang around with famous people, wear a leather jacket, do lots of drugs, and was just sort of. I, I came across as cool and I built my Persona around my impulsivities because people respected them at the time. And then when people stopped respecting them, I kind of realized I was like, oh, now I'm just sort of here with a. Drinking, a slight drink and drug problem and not a lot else to show for it. And I really had to walk that back and work on that. But that was the thing with me is I have got a really, really addictive personality and it's dangerous if I get a taste for something that's really not good for me.

Jordan James (36:08)

Yeah, yeah. No, no. I think getting addicted to anything is, is harmful. Unless it's giving your kitty cat kisses, I think.

Simon Scott (36:20)

Yeah. And this is why I struggle with my phone. Like screen sucking. Ugh.

Jordan James (36:26)

I like the way you just brush across the fact that I'm addicted to kissing my cat.

Simon Scott (36:29)

But that's, that's fine. But.

Jordan James (36:31)

Well, I mean, you, you've met my cat. You understand. He's the softest thing on the planet.

Simon Scott (36:35)

Boy, there's a lot to kiss. I get it. He just walks in like doors. But no, yeah, screen time, dude. There's a, like a distraction, a numbing mechanism, but dude, it with my sleep.

Jordan James (36:50)

So when, when I first got onto Facebook and, and Instagram and I, you know, and I put my pictures and I was getting all these positive responses. It was the same thing as, as with the, with, with the game. You know, I was just elated and, and absorbed like, like a warm blanket on a cold day of just all these positive reactions to, to something that I created. People were just loving everything I was doing. If it was my poetry or it was my writings, my articles and obviously my photography and it, it. Oh, it was just, it was addictive. It was the drug of, of. Of self love and, and, and it was. Oh, it was crazy. But I was on my phone so much that we'd be watching entire series of. Of TV shows and I'd be on my phone, just checking my phone, checking my phone, uploading, downloading that I remember re watching a particular series and it was like I'd what, you know, went without my phone once I'd got rid of it and it was like I was watching it for the first time. I don't remember anything. There is a genuine thing that is happening now within TV shows. And I saw this in the latest Stranger Things series. No spoilers, don't worry. But in most scenes in Stranger Things Season 5, they over explain the plot and any plan they're going to have. They over explain it, simplify it. Literally, like you're in like, like a kindergarten or a nursery school. They talk to the audience like their three year olds. And, and the reason that they do that is because most people are now on their phones while watching anything on tv. So it's. I think it's something like the, the, the. The two screen problem or something like that. A dual screen problem.

Simon Scott (38:57)

Yeah.

Jordan James (38:57)

Where somebody is on their phone while watching the show.

Simon Scott (39:00)

This is why I love the cinema so much.

Jordan James (39:03)

That is the same. I'm the same.

Simon Scott (39:05)

Breaks me away from it so much because like dude, I upset myself and I did this at the weekend and I literally got angry with myself. I was looking forward to watching the Liverpool game all week. Don't worry, they lost. But, but yay. It got to the, it got to the end of the first half and what did I do? I took my phone out and I'm on my phone and I look up, the second half has started and it's the 80th minute. Oh, I'd missed the game because I was on my phone.

Jordan James (39:42)

I've. I sometimes do that when I'm watching basketball. But I'll be honest, basketball is just like back and forth. After what it does, it does get a little bit boring. Especially, especially if you. Yeah, with football it's a. I'll be honest, football's super boring now when I watch it. I absolutely loved it. But I see it now and I think because basketball is very stimulating because it's just, you know, it's just attack, defend, attack, defend. Yeah, yeah. And. And football so slow.

Simon Scott (40:08)

Especially the way it is now.

Jordan James (40:10)

Especially the way that, that Chelsea used to play which was like the. Keep passing it back to the goalkeeper and around the defense.

Simon Scott (40:17)

I'm like, would you just kick the ball back and forward? One of the things that I will say is it is sort of changing slightly. But it's not. But it is. But it's not. But anyway, that was something that I have experienced regularly and it's not just affecting me. There are times where I've had family time and I'll look up and Caris is on the phone or Caris will look up and I'm on my phone and I'm just like, what am I doing? Why am I not being present?

Jordan James (40:42)

And yeah, it's, it's that. Yeah and we're not present.

Simon Scott (40:45)

And it's really frustrating and I can get really angry with myself about it. The point of, I've now set timers on certain apps, and I actually feel better when I'm not on my phone. Like, I often get stuck in it because I'm tired or I've had a really long day, or even worse, I'm doing something that I don't want to do. Like, I love editing. It brings me a lot of joy. And I. And I really enjoy making something that I know people are going to hear, maybe in a week's time, a year's time, and it means something to them. It really brings me. Brings me a lot. But there are certain times where I'm listening to a conversation, I'm like, this is heavy. Or it just loses my interest. And it's not necessarily that the content's bad. That's just sometimes what happens. My phone is my worst enemy for that. Because if I'm stuck in an edit and I get a bit of no ed about it, I can go on my phone. And then suddenly I'm like, fuck, I've just lost half an hour and I pay for it. It's really frustrating because then it bleeds into my other time. So it's one of the things that frustrates me so much about my brain is if I spend too much of my day not really doing everything that I want to do, I will then almost, like, have revenge time. So I, like, get to like 11pm and I'll sit on YouTube for an hour, an hour and a half, when I could, I should just roll over and go to bed, but I don't because I'm like, I want that time back. And, yeah, I really miss the time before smartphones. I really miss. I really want to get back to a more analog lifestyle. That's something I'm going to really try and work on.

Jordan James (42:33)

Yeah, I think for me, when I get home after work or I try to do this during the day is I literally put my phone upstairs, and then I just come downstairs and then it's just upstairs. And there's so many times I'll be watching a program like, who is that guy? And I'll reach for my phone to check. I'm like, yeah. And it's not there. And then I. And then I'm like. And then I just go, oh, well, I guess I'll just carry on watching. And it's. It's. It's crazy because it's like, oh, I'll just look at that later. And then by the time it's later, I don't even give it.

Simon Scott (43:07)

You know what?

Jordan James (43:08)

It's just that, that reaction of just reach you for your phone and I'm like, I'm just watching something. It does. It doesn't matter what that man was in before.

Simon Scott (43:15)

It's such a reaction, isn't it?

Jordan James (43:16)

But it does. And it doesn't matter. It does because, you know autism, but it doesn't because you know it doesn't.

Simon Scott (43:22)

And it takes you out of whatever you're watching as well. Like, Caris and I were watching completely. The new series of Bridgeton's come out. And I just really like watching it with Caris because we're both like teenage girls. Like, oh, my. Oh. Like, we just joke about it.

Jordan James (43:35)

I'm looking forward to watching it.

Simon Scott (43:37)

I've really enjoyed it. But halfway through the first episode last night, I went and put my phone in the kitchen and I sat and I came and sat down and we watched like four episodes of it. And then I. She went to bed and I watched a movie. But I really enjoyed not having my phone. And I have to keep reminding myself that I enjoy not having it. And it's really frustrating when I pick it up and I'm like, oh, here we are again. And it's just in that sort of loop. And I'm really trying, I'm really trying really hard to break my relationship that I have with my phone of I'm bored, so I'll just pick it up.

Jordan James (44:12)

I would say that the, the last thing, and I do think this is this, this is definitely associated with autism. It doesn't mean it's just with autism, but it's associated with autism. And I definitely find it the most frustrating thing when I have an autistic friend and I, I, I get. So it is advantageous for the species to do this thing, but it's also really antisocial. And that is the rigid thinking, the, like, absolute. This is the way it is. And I'm only going to do it this way, sort of getting stuck in like, like a loop. And I'll give you a perfect example. I've got a friend who goes, I don't eat fruit or veggies. And I go, yeah, yeah. What, what do you mean you don't eat fruit or veg? I don't eat any fruit or veg. And I go, what about tomato? He goes, no, I don't. I don't eat any, any fruit or veg. And I go, you have you had a pizza the other day that had tomato on it. And he went, I mean that's fine. And I'm like, what? Wait a minute.

Simon Scott (45:22)

Okay, here comes an argument.

Jordan James (45:24)

Because, because he won't have vegetables on the pizza. And I went, yeah, but tomatoes are fruit.

Simon Scott (45:31)

Oh, you've hit him with logic. Don't do that.

Jordan James (45:33)

You've got, you've. Because somebody said to me the other day, and I thought this was really funny about pineapple on pizza. This is separate, by the way. This is just me being pedantic. Somebody said, pineapple on pizza is disgusting. You shouldn't have fruit on a pizza. And I went, all pizzas have fruit. And they went, what are you talking about? I went, all pizzas have tomato. There's a tomato base. You could have different. You should have barbecue base. But if you're, if your pizza has a tomato base, it's a fruit. I'm sorry to blow these to your mind, but a tomato is not a vegetable. A tomato is a fruit. It has seeds, it's a fruit. So everybody that says, oh, I don't have fruit, my pizza. Well, you're fucking wrong because you bloody well do you. And they. That's my ramp.

Simon Scott (46:22)

Sorry. Somebody said to me the other day, life gives you lemons. And I go, well, actually lemons were technically man made because they're a citrus with a bitter orange. So.

Jordan James (46:29)

So man doesn't give you lemons, you lemon.

Simon Scott (46:31)

And they literally looked at me as if to be like, shut the up. I was like, yeah, all right, sorry.

Jordan James (46:36)

Being pedantic is self sabotaging behavior. But yeah, this, this really anal way of thinking of. And, and, and I've experienced it in my own family. It would just drive me and say. And it does affect relationships and friendships.

Simon Scott (46:53)

Yeah.

Jordan James (46:53)

Where there's like this, this. Only there's. I'm just thinking this exact way and, and you can't sway me one way or the other. Almost like a cognitive dissonance, but it's not, it's very much like, like the super hyper focus of being neurodivergent where you've just got this one goal and it's, it, it can be very, very frustrating when you see someone becoming unhealthy because they're not eating fruit and veg. I'm seeing him become unhealthy. He's always ill, he's always tired, his immune system's a mess, probably he's overweight and, and you know, and, and I'm just. And he's, he's undoubtedly pre diabetic. I. In fact, I'm like 99. Sure he's pre diabetic and he's only in his 30s. And I'm, I, I'm worried about my friend. Like, I'm genuinely concerned for him and his health. And because he doesn't eat anything healthy, it's all processed garbage food and that's fine every now and again. That's cool. But he doesn't eat any fruit and veg at all. That it is concerning because there's loads of different ways of consuming fruit and veg.

Simon Scott (48:24)

Yeah, I mean, it's like, yes, this is the textures for me, but I just have a lot of juice.

Jordan James (48:30)

But for, for him, he's. It's more of this. I've decided that it's this and therefore it's now this.

Simon Scott (48:37)

Oh, I've experienced it with a lot of people, dude. Where, for example, production or producing podcasts, I've known a lot of people that have been extremely rigid about how it should be done. And I've noticed people make bad content because they're stuck in their ways. And it's like, I've worked with a variety of people that are now in their 60s and, and going into their 70s and I'm like, just retire, guys. But they won't, and they will not take on the Internet. They're like, oh, the Internet. It's just full of people with ADHD that can't focus. I've heard it all and it just baffles me, some certain people's inability to, to adapt. But then I look at myself and that's when the self doubt, like all the horrible voice comes in because I can see my own rigidity with things and I really struggle to let things go. Like, I used to have an ex girlfriend that was from Norway, which was a country that was occupied during World War II. She knew absolutely nothing about it. I would not let it go, dude. I would not let it go. And it really caused a lot of arguments in our relationship. And I look back on it now and I'm like, what a silly thing to cause arguments about. But I couldn't let it go. And add on top of that rumination, you then start worrying about all the things that you've said and you're just in this like cycle of, well, I can't stop saying these things, so I'm not gonna say anything. But now I can't stop. And it's just like, you just get stuck in such a little mess, don't you?

Jordan James (50:18)

Yeah. I mean, for anyone out there that's like, oh, you know, autism, adhd, they aren't disabilities nuanced, they aren't just a disability, but they are very disabling at times.

Simon Scott (50:31)

I absolutely love so much about being neurodivergent, but there are other times where I'm like, am I an. Am I the here? Am I, you know?

Jordan James (50:41)

Yeah. I'm just saying. Yeah.

Simon Scott (50:43)

Yeah. Should we take a break?

Jordan James (50:46)

Hi, asshole.

Simon Scott (50:47)

As you were.

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Simon Scott (52:14)

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Jordan James (53:57)

I definitely because I think that the is subjective.

Simon Scott (54:02)

Depends on which way you look at it.

Jordan James (54:04)

I've definitely been an at some points to some people.

Simon Scott (54:08)

People. Oh there's some people that really don't like me because I was an.

Jordan James (54:13)

Which is why in this section we're going to talk about it. Why? Because we can be total. Sometimes it's really important to understand that, that, that you can be an and know that you can actually do something about it. Now in the past I definitely been someone that's been like, oh, just let us be how we are. And you know, masking is really terrible and you know, we should just be accepted for who we are. And I think in over the last six years of being an advocate, being a specialist and working personally, working on myself and helping my kids work through, through their problems as well and problems meaning not neurodivergent but problems is in.

Simon Scott (55:01)

Just, just life in general.

Jordan James (55:03)

Life in general.

Simon Scott (55:04)

Just life in general. General.

Jordan James (55:07)

I've. I have noticed that masking or camouflaging at certain times is actually very, very useful. And I think as long as you can do it on your own volition, as long as it's your choice like and, and people will do this all the time. They'll. They'll go into a situation and they'll, they'll put on their phone voice.

Simon Scott (55:34)

Hello. Good morning, how are you?

Jordan James (55:35)

They're phone person. Oh, well, hello.

Simon Scott (55:38)

A lot of people call it. Is it like code switching?

Jordan James (55:41)

Yes. Yeah, I, I have and absolutely code switching is very, very advantageous in social situations. It can help you get a job, it can help you get promoted. And I know it sounds awful the fact that we can't just be ourselves at work and be accepted. But that is, that's the reality I'd like. But that is not the reality that exists. The reality exists is that you have to play the game.

Simon Scott (56:12)

Yeah.

Jordan James (56:12)

And unfortunately the game is rigged for the neurotypicals. So you have to cheat by pretending to be a neurotypical.

Simon Scott (56:23)

Oh yes.

Jordan James (56:24)

And we're not always great at it. Practice makes perfect.

Simon Scott (56:28)

Oh God, Is that true?

Jordan James (56:30)

Yeah, I have, I have been working on it for the last 25 years of working, but I definitely feel like, like I'm there in a situation where, especially as a manager at my work and I, I've got to do mentoring, I've got to do training, I've got to do, you know, disciplining and, and I've got to talk to different departments in the building I work in and I will get on with everyone. The feedback I, I literally had my yearly appraisal yesterday and the feedback I got from, from my managers, my. So I'm a manager and then above me, man, more managers. So many managers, generals and corporals is. I am very well liked. And, and, and, and I'm like, I'll take that. Am I good at my job? And they're like, well, that goes without saying. We, we know you can do your job, because if I can't, I, I get bollocked. And not. I know I'm doing my job, but.

Simon Scott (57:30)

That'S not also as important as being.

Jordan James (57:31)

But the feedback that they're getting from other departments and from the company in general, who I'm working for is that I'm very well liked and, and I do it without being a pushover as well. So I'm not, I'm not just like rolling over and letting people do whatever they want. I work in security. I've got to do my job as it is on paper. Like, you can't do that thing that you want to go and do over there. No, you can't take that laptop off site to go and sell it on ebay. I have to do my job. But I, I don't do it in a, in a bullish or, or aggressive way. I do it in a way that people turn around and go, oh, I'm really sorry that, that I upset Jordan. I didn't mean to. They care that, that, that they might have upset me. And, and I don't come across upset, but I come across as, oh, well, you know, you really shouldn't be doing that. You know, that's. I'd really appreciate it if you could just, you know, just do it the, the way that you're supposed to do it. And I'm, I'm really. That's simplifying it. But I have worked so hard at being somebody that's approachable and likable because it gets me what I want, which is to not have confrontation in the workplace. Conflict, work conflict is something that has plagued me and given me the most anxiety. I used to have, like, literally just felt existential dread just going to work because of the people that I was working with. Whereas now, not at all. Nothing. I. I don't worry about anybody I work with at all. And I work with different people every single day. And I get. I get on with everyone. And that is. That is the biggest, biggest success that I have ever had in work ever.

Simon Scott (59:38)

And I'm really proud of you, man. That's awesome. Because, like, one of the things that I've really tried to work on with sort of my camouflaging is I don't give a hundred percent of myself when I meet people. Like, I used to meet people and just be like, hi, I'm Simon. And this is everything about me.

Jordan James (60:00)

Over, sharing, self sabotaging.

Simon Scott (60:03)

One of the things I. I wouldn't necessarily say standing up. Check that out. Like a bat. Like, how did I get all down here anyway? One of the things that I've really tried to do is meet people where they are, and I have a work version of myself. And it's, you know, like, when I was working in the bar, there was one particular guy who was really annoyed that I'd got this job, that he thought, I've been here two years, I'm gonna get this job. And when I first got there, he was not okay with me. And he made it very, very clear that he did not like me and I was in a position above him. If I'd got that job three years ago, I would have started an argument with him on day one, been like, what's your fucking problem? Because that is who I used to be. And that's just sort of the bullied kid coming out. But in the end, I tried to. I really thought about how I'm gonna tackle this guy. And when he first came in, I was very anxious. And then I reminded myself, I was like, come on, Simon.

Jordan James (61:14)

You.

Simon Scott (61:15)

You can do this. You've worked on. On trying to meet people where they are and understand where they're coming from. And on the first shift that I had with him, I just said to him, so I'm gonna just get this out of the way, dude. I'm. I've heard through the grapevine that you're not very happy that I'm here. And he was like, oh, I. I wasn't. I wasn't expecting you to kind of start with that. And I went, look, I went, I totally understand why you would be upset, but the question you should be asking yourself is not why I've got the job. It's why you didn't. And if you want, I'm not going to be here forever, but if you want, I will train you to do my job so that when I leave in six months or a year's time, you're next in line. How does that sound? And that is a lot of work for me, dude. That is a lot of work of rather me pandering to people or trying to be a people person. I kind of went, I'm not here forever. Not everybody has to like me. I don't have to be friends with everybody. But how can I make my job easier? And the way that I can make it easier is to not make it about me and just sort of help other people. And that has really helped me be better at me, because I've not put my problems or my issues first, in a way.

Jordan James (62:39)

Yeah. So you can be selfish by being selfless. Yes, because you're. You're being nice to everybody and you're being helpful because it's actually makes your life a lot easier.

Simon Scott (62:53)

And he was good, and he got better, and everybody was like, wow, Simon, you've managed to really help him grow into somebody that's really good. Would you like a promotion? Oh, no, go on. Then I'll do it for a few months and then I'll go and work on something else, which is what happened. But that is the sort of. I was always like, why am I getting overlooked for promotions? Why am I never getting picked? And I saw this kid and I saw myself, and I was like, I was always really desperate for somebody to put their arm around me rather than push me and tell me to get a grip. And I'm gonna try and be the change I want to see and help this guy. And I feel like I did. And, yeah, I was selfish by being selfless. And I actually had really nice individual relationships with everybody that I worked with. And every single time there was conflicts between any members of the staff, because I'd spent time with everybody and actually tried to meet them where they were and not, you know, just talk about me. When issues happened, I had the ability to take that other person aside and go, look, it's not your business to know, but they've got a lot going on, so cut them some slack. Remember, we're a team. And that actually really helped improve the work culture, because I didn't go in there and, like, I'm the new boss. This is how we're gonna do things. I walked in there and went, how do you guys do things?

Jordan James (64:15)

Yeah, I think I remember When I first got my, my assessment through, when, when I first got recognized as being autistic, I was watching some videos and there was an awareness video out that showed a guy in a canteen, in a work canteen. And there's a, there's like three or four people sitting at this table and this woman's crying and this guy sitting there, he's the autistic guy and he's like, why are you crying? And the woman next to her is like, oh, her, her boyfriend just, just left her and she's really upset. And he goes, maybe it's because he just didn't like you anymore.

Simon Scott (64:59)

Oh.

Jordan James (65:00)

And, and the girl starts crying even more and they get, and they get really annoyed and go, you didn't have to say that. And he was like, I was, I was trying to help. I was just trying to make her feel better.

Simon Scott (65:12)

Yeah.

Jordan James (65:13)

And it was a very interesting way in this video because I don't think I've ever been seen more in my life.

Simon Scott (65:17)

Yeah.

Jordan James (65:18)

I was like, this, this is a real thing. This isn't like. And it wasn't a stereotype, a guy sitting in the corner rocking with headphones. It was just a normal looking dude. As a normal, in quote unquote, just an average looking dude that was, that was just very, very honest and, and just plain and what he was saying. And I was like, Jesus Christ. That is literally what I do so much much. And what I realized is, is you can make a million of those videos and you can show the world those videos and then it doesn't matter because as soon as I'm in that situation, if I said the wrong thing, even if it's for the right reason and my heart is in the right place and it's, it's, it's factually correct, but it's, it's, it's socially unacceptable. People are going to think I'm a. Yeah. Whether I'm autistic or not. And I have seen programs where someone was like, oh, well, you know, he, he's, he's autistic or you know, he's, he's high functioning and stuff like that. Where a guy is just an asshole and says an thing, even if he's, if, and if it's factual and they'll, and they'll go, yeah, but that's just the way he is. And, and I, and this might surprise a few people, but I take umbrage to that because I call because I know that if we try hard enough, we don't have to do that. We can do that with our loved ones because they might accept us. But if that's a. But if we go out in public and just start saying things and going, well, I'm honest because I'm autistic, it might be the case. But, dude, you can work on that.

Simon Scott (67:05)

Yeah, People are not going to give you a free pass. They're not.

Jordan James (67:09)

And yes, that is masking. Yes, that is camouflaging. But that's your choice in a way. It's. It's choosing to change your behavior so it's not like ABA where it's forced on you as a child or forced on you as an adult. You're. Because that, that is non consensual as far as I'm concerned. This is your choice to make those changes and say, do you know what? I actually want to make friends. So I don't want to go into a situation and say, oh, I don't like your haircut. It makes you look like a chicken. Your haircut makes you look like a demented chicken.

Simon Scott (67:49)

Yeah, don't. Yeah.

Jordan James (67:50)

Oh, well, thanks. And they go, that's okay. I'm just being honest. Yeah. And I'm.

Simon Scott (67:56)

This is that phrase that comes back, dude, is. And I do this a lot. And this has really helped me with. This is when somebody has a statement at me as an example, somebody goes, oh, I'm really upset because my boyfriend left me. I go, do I tell them what I think or do I tell them what they want to hear?

Jordan James (68:15)

I bought.

Simon Scott (68:17)

So sorry to hear that. I don't want to know anymore. But I am really sorry to hear.

Jordan James (68:22)

Do you know what I do? I, I go, why? And then let them tell me. And if they don't want to tell me, I go, okay, just ask the question. Would. And this is what, this is what I've learned with my daughter. This is the last thing we'll say is this is what I've learned with my daughter because this has affected my family, is that if she wants my opinion, I. And all I want to give her my opinion of something, I need to ask her first. So in that situation of those people sitting at that table, that autistic guy, what he should have said was, would you like to know what I think? And they could have gone, not really, not right now. And he could have gone, okay, then rather than just saying what he was thinking, ask the question, would you like to know what I think? Or would you like my help? Or can I give my opinion on that? And if somebody says no, no means no. People so don't do it. And I'm all out of spoons.

Simon Scott (69:37)

Yeah, Me too, man. 100 spoons out the window. 100 episodes. Yes. Thank you so much for listening today. Even though it's these episodes sometimes are always personal and putting it out there, I always really enjoy the them. And I hope you've enjoyed this one as well. And if you've been with us since episode one, drop us a little note. Say hello so we know who you are. And here's to another hundred dude. A thousand million, million neurodivergent experiences. Take care, everybody. We will be back tomorrow with our Hot Topic. And if you have not seen the film, I swear I cannot wait for you to hear about it. That will be coming in your feed tomorrow. Ashley's back with us on Mindful Monday. One thing from you, man.

Jordan James (70:18)

Yeah, I'm not going to be here for 101 because I'm still in. I'm still going to be in New Zealand. So we haven't figured out, but apparently there's. We're gonna do a guest. We're gonna have a different person. Not me, unfortunately. Sorry, everybody. Everyone's like, oh, thank God.

Simon Scott (70:33)

That's great. I'll not listen to those ones then. Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, Ashley may be joining us. I may wrangle up some of my friends. Who knows, maybe Sophie, maybe Sophie will join us. Who knows? Anyway, take care, lovely people. We'll be in your feed tomorrow nightly.

Jordan James (70:49)

Bye.

Simon Scott (70:54)

Thanks for tuning in to the neurodivergent Experience. We hope today's episode sparks something for you. Whether it's a new idea, a bit of validation, or just a moment of connection. Remember, new episodes are every week, so be sure to join us for the next one for more comprehensive conversations and insights into the neurodivergent experience. If you've enjoyed this podcast, help us grow. You can do that by rating and reviewing this show. Your support makes a huge difference in helping us reach more people who could benefit from these conversations. You can connect with us on social media, find us on Instagram, Facebook, tick tock. Just search for the neurodivergent experience. Thank you again for listening, listening. And until next time, take care of yourself. You're not alone in this journey.

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Simon Scott (72:36)

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