Jordan Simon (3:40)

Okay.

Jordan James (3:41)

AAC speaking device, which to me just looks like a tablet. It could be whatever. Um, but this definitely, this new Barbie looks like she represents autistic people, some of them. And this is the problem, when you create something that is there for representation of an entire community is that you run the risk of upsetting the majority of that community just to please a few people in the community. And those few people are young women who like Barbie, who wear headphones, have fidget spinners or fidget rings, and maybe use a device to help speak, because that's what Barbie has with accessories. And if you are represented by this Barbie, then I am nothing but absolutely delighted for you. I genuinely, from the bottom of my heart, if you are out there right now and you've got your Barbie and it makes you happy, that is absolutely brilliant because I will take any happiness, especially in this world right now. And if there's a little girl out there who feels better because of this Barbie, then that is a wonderful, wonderful thing. But the problem for me isn't the doll itself. It's the fact that now everybody who sees this doll and goes, that's the autistic Barbie thinks that's what autism now looks like. And so once again we have our Rain man, but it's autistic Barbie and it's already a stereotype, especially with the headphones. The headphones are such a stereotype. Or ear defenders. And it's like, come on, we can do better than this. So I put a post out and it was well received with nearly, with over 800 people commenting on it, which was a huge amount for, for, for post that I made. And it was made in line with the Self Advocacy Network, which is an autistic led charity who I follow on social media. I think that they're really great, but I definitely feel like they dropped the ball with this one. But I don't think it was their fault. I don't think they were given a lot to work with. I think Mattel were like, okay, we need to make this $1. And I'm like, well, if you're gonna make an autistic Barbie. Who says that the astronaut Barbie isn't autistic? Who says that the businesswoman Barbie or the dentist Barbie or the horse riding Barbie. Why is this Barbie autistic but no other Barbie is autistic? And Sophie made the best point when she saw this and she got really upset because she is a huge Barbie fan. Like Barbie T shirts, Barbie hats, so many Barbies. Oh, they're just. There's so many Barbies, dude. And she was obsessed. Still to this day, she's obsessed with watching the Barbie movies. She will watch all the Barbie movies on dvd. She loves Barbie. And she went to me, she went, why have they made an autistic Barbie? I thought Barbie was already autistic because to her, Barbie is loving and caring and altruistic and sensitive. And it's got so many different characteristics, so many different versions of herself split among different types of jobs. So many different types of jobs. And exactly what we always say about ourselves, Jack of all trades, that's what Barbie is. So to her, she already felt represented because Barbie, anyone can be autistic. It doesn't have a look. And I think that's the problem with this is it's giving autism a look. And that is literally what we're trying to get away from now.

Jordan Simon (8:04)

See, I, when I first saw this story and Ashley, I'm intrigued, really intrigued to hear your opinion on this, I kind of was instantly like, oh, cool, autistic Barbie. But when you've sort of explained Sophie's thoughts on it and sort of what the response has been, because again, this is, this isn't really sort of in my realm of knowledge. I mean, I've never even held a Barbie, let alone played with one or given it a lot of thought. But from what you're saying, it has actually made me go, no, I can see why this is, isn't as, as good as a thing as it is it reads on paper. So, Ashley, I'm going to hand over more to you because I don't really feel like I've got a lot of skin in the game with this. Other than what Jordan was saying about misrepresentation.

Ashley Bentley (8:53)

Well, I was huge, huge, huge into Barbies and played with Barbies well into much longer than my peers were. I was doing into my early teens, I think. So. Yeah. So when I first saw this come out, I was immediately like, ooh, this is a bit sticky. I knew, I initially was like, some people are going to have a problem with this. And I can see why, because much like what Sophie was saying, you're trying to visualize a neurotype. That's what they're trying to do. You're trying to make a visual of a neurotype. And as you say, Jordan, you know, you've got astronaut, Barbie, businesswoman, Barbie horse, but you can visualize those things. You can, you know, put someone in a spacesuit or get them all, you know, sort of dressed up in a suit or put them on a horse. Those things you can, you can put a visualization to, but there's just you, you just can't visualize a neurotype. It's like, what, what's next? Is the next one going to be neurotypical? And I think so. I'm really on the fence because exactly what Jordan said. I think this could actually be really, really, really wonderful for a huge amount of girls out there. And if it is, I'm really, really glad. But it could also be very confusing and very much like from hearing Sophie's reaction, it's like, oh, well, I, the whole purpose of Barbie is so that you can play out your thoughts and feelings through a dollar. And so that doll is going to be, you know, whatever you are. So you don't have to, you don't have to specify the neurotype of a doll. The child playing with it will do that automatically. So whilst there might be. And also, what was feeling a little bit unsettling for me is like, okay, so Mattel, it feels a little bit like trying to cash in on.

Jordan James (11:04)

All right, this is, that's exactly what I said in my post.

Ashley Bentley (11:08)

Yeah.

Jordan James (11:08)

This is exploitation of our neurotype of our disability. This is trying to cash in on the, on, on the, on the disability pound, like, like the pink pound, when, when people will pander to, to, to selling rainbows and, and gay icon stuff for, you know, during Pride Month, they're, they're trying to cash in on autism and it's super gross. And again, really surprising Self advocacy network. We're like, that's fine, let's, let's join in with that. I was genuinely surprised. Like I said, I think it's come from a place of like, they're trying to help.

Ashley Bentley (11:42)

Yeah.

Jordan James (11:43)

And they, they thought, well, if Mattel are going to do this anyway, at least we, because their whole slogan, and we've said this before, is then nothing about us, without us. So I commend them for, for being, I commend Mattel to a certain extent. Although I do wonder if it's toke. And to me it always is tokenism. Because if they only got one company or one charity, why not put it out to the entire community? Why not put a poll out to the entire. I mean it's social media, it's social. You can reach the entire world. The, you can reach every single person on the fucking spectrum out there to, to be represented and say, how would you have done it? And 90% of the comments that I have seen from actually autistic people are why didn't they just bring out an accessory pack?

Ashley Bentley (12:34)

Yes.

Jordan James (12:34)

I was just thinking that a child can then build their own, use their Barbies they've already got.

Ashley Bentley (12:41)

Yep.

Jordan James (12:42)

And then accessorize their, that Barbie that represents them the most. Whether it's astronaut Barbie or horse riding Barbie or teacher Barbie or whatever Barbie, they're like, oh, that's, that's my favorite Barbie. Make that Barbie autistic visually, but give that child the means to do so themselves. And that way you. Because remember, I got my best Christmas present. One of the best presents I've ever got was a pop character, Funko Pop that Sylvia designed to look like me. It's a Jordan James pop character. It's literally me. That's my representation of me and it's the coolest thing I own. It's so, so cool. Or maybe Barbie could have something like Funko Pop do and you can make your own doll exactly as you want. I don't know if they already have this, but if they do, then why do they specifically need an autistic Barbie? Because my, my worry, like I said, my joy is for the people that does represent, the people that does make happy, the people it makes feel seen wonderful. But then you are isolating all the young people that are autistic that already maybe having self doubt, maybe saying, well, maybe I'm not autistic. Or you get well meaning. Apparently people go, I don't think you're autistic. So you've got these young people, they're like, well, if this is autistic Bobbin, I'm, I don't use the headphones like that. I don't use that device. I don't have this ring. Because we are so literal.

Ashley Bentley (14:20)

Yeah.

Jordan James (14:20)

We are such literal visual learners that they'll be like, I can't be autistic because I don't look like my Barbie.

Jordan Simon (14:30)

I just worry about that makes a lot of sense.

Jordan James (14:33)

I just, why so you have all these kids doubting their own autism because they don't look like they're Barbie. And I'm like, cool. So you made a load of kids happy, but you might have made a load of kids miserable.

Ashley Bentley (14:45)

Well, Barbie has a tradition of already, you know, giving, giving unrealistic expectations of what? Oh, the female body and all that. They might as well carry on with it.

Jordan James (14:57)

I would have liked to see a slightly larger Barbie to represent actual women, but that is a completely separate thing. But yeah, I've always had a problem with Barbie being a stick figure.

Ashley Bentley (15:11)

Yeah. And the ratios as well of her figure as well. But yeah, yeah, I think, you know, if I was a little girl and this came out and yeah, I don't think I would have resonated with the items that she's dealing with. So I think I would have felt like, oh, well, gosh, is there something wrong with me? So now another thing that's wrong with me. I thought I was autistic, but I'm not fitting this. Does that mean I'm not.

Jordan James (15:43)

Do you know what? They massively missed out on this. And this is a joke by the way, to everyone who's listening. So don't take it too seriously. But on a lot of he man figures, you've got little buttons at the back of them that make their arms move. They should have put one to make.

Jordan Simon (15:57)

A handful like a stimmer, the stim bone.

Jordan James (16:01)

Because it's like, well, if you're going to give, if you're going to give Barbie all the visuals, you might as well make a super stereotype and have freaking hand flapping as well. Chuck that in there. Joking. But also, do you know what really confused me is that they say that they've given her a slight off look, gaze to, to. I have looked at a picture so much. Is it like the Mona Lisa? You either can see it or you can't. I can't, I can't see this shift of gaze. I. And if it, if it, if I can't see it, then, then to me it's not enough. Yeah, but then I'm like, but if you do do it, isn't that just another stereotype?

Ashley Bentley (16:39)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Jordan James (16:41)

Maybe just don't make autistic Barbie. Yeah, maybe, maybe, just maybe. Fucking accessory pack. Yeah, it's such a simple, simple. I mean, still cashing in. I still don't really like it, but if it makes kids happy and it will make all the autistic kids happy that want to play with Barbie and maybe, just maybe it might get new autistic kids into Barbie because they were like, oh, I can actually make a bespoke example of myself.

Ashley Bentley (17:08)

Absolutely.

Jordan Simon (17:09)

I think that you've all hit on really great points there because like when I got sent through this story, I was like, oh cool, inclusivity. But what you've both sort of explained there, there's a lot of knock on effects with having this sort of thing in existence in that you're right in what you were saying is well, can astronaut Barbie not be autistic? Can fashionista Barbie not be autistic? Are they gonna make an autistic Ken doll now? Or he's got like, I don't know then these are the sorts of things.

Jordan James (17:39)

Train T shirt.

Jordan Simon (17:40)

But what this is doing, and I think you're so correct in that, is it's reinforcing stereotypes of that's not what autism looks like. This is what it looks like. And if it doesn't have these checklists, if you can look me in the eye, are you autistic? If you don't have a fidget spinner, are you not autistic? And kids are so easily like impressionable and can their stereotypes are really reinforced at a young time. So I kind of, I love the sentiment of trying to be inclusive. I understand as to why this network may have proceeded with this, but I'll be honest, I, I have been swayed by, by what you've both said today. So just to sort of finish this hot topic, Jordan, you've had an infinite amount of comments on this. Is there any that stood out for you from your page of what people thought of this?

Jordan James (18:31)

Well, should we have a little break and then, and then go into that?

Jordan Simon (18:34)

Yep, sure.

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Nikaela (19:01)

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Nikaela (19:08)

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Jordan Simon (19:42)

This is a neurodivergent experience. Public announcement if you live in England and you or a loved one is waiting for an autism or ADHD assessment, you don't have to wait years. RTN diagnostics is now part of the NHS Right to Choose scheme, which means if your local wait for a consultant led autism or ADHD assessment is more than 18 weeks, you can choose RTN instead and it won't cost you a penny. Jordan chose RTN for his own family because their care and attention to detail were second to none. They didn't just diagnose autism and adhd, they they looked at the full picture, including pda, ocd, anxiety and more. The team is friendly, neuroaffirming and comprises many neurodivergent individuals, so they truly understand. Getting started is simple. Download the GP referral letter and questionnaire from the link in our show notes. Take those to your GP and ask for a referral to RTN diagnostics. If approved, RTN will be in touch within eight weeks to begin your assessment. Remember, this only applies in England and some exclusions do apply. RTN is not currently able to accept referrals for child ADHD assessments, so check the details before you start RTN diagnostics, helping you get the answers you deserve without the wait. Welcome back to this week's Hot Topic. We have been discussing Autistic Barbie and Ashley Bentley from Mindful Mondays has joined us once again to give us more of a perspective. A perspective. Perspective. Put me teeth in, Simon, you know what I mean? But Jordan put a post out up on his page and that has had an unbelievable amount of comments. So we're going to hear from maybe some of you listeners of your opinions on Autistic Barbie.

Jordan James (21:44)

Yeah, it's, it's interesting because obviously I came out not, not against the idea of an autistic Barbie, not against this autistic Barbie as per se, but I just wanted to make clear, which is the points I've made in the first half, that it, it isn't as, you know, cut and dry as. This is a wonderful thing for the community because it's isn't. And it is.

Ashley Bentley (22:18)

Yeah.

Jordan James (22:18)

And, and, and this is the thing that, that I have noticed on social media and it's. This is so annoying because it's. The people who love it are so upset that anybody disagrees with them that anybody could, I mean, and, and, and the, the comments that I get the most are at. It's a start, it's a Start, you know, we've got to start somewhere. And I'm like, but why does it have to be with a Barbie doll? Yeah, so, so everyone is just basically saying, well, at least there's some representation. And, and, and I'm like, well, actually there's always been representation, but it hasn't always been good. So is representation good even when it's bad? It's like, no press is bad press because all press is good press. Is. Is that what we're looking at? And are people so desperate for representation that they turn to a Barbie doll for like that. That's the pinnacle of what we want the world to see.

Ashley Bentley (23:22)

And, and, and I keep. I just can't get past the fact that it's, it can only be a visual representation as well. So this is like when. Yeah, it's, it's a. I can see people being happy that it is a start, but it's like, is this the start that we want? Do we want to go down this road of, you know, just visualizing stereotypes?

Jordan James (23:46)

Yeah, so, yeah, exactly. I mean, some, some of these. Com comments. This, this person was interesting. So I think firstly, it is built on the premise that autism is always visibly different. It isn't any Barbie could be autistic. Just what I've said. And secondly, it is a cheap stereotype. This is what somebody was saying. Somebody said, my kids would have liked it. They both had ear defenders when little. But now use loops. Barbie is normalizing that some people have sensory issues and may use a speaking device. That is true. But again, you can achieve that to having an accessories pack rather than saying it is this one. This is the autistic one. It, it. This feels like it's not include inclusation or inclusion, including us. It's ostracizing. It's just another way of separating. Because why, why are we now defined by being autistic? And I know that sounds ironic coming from the autistic photographer, but that the only reason I use that handle on Facebook is to make people feel like it's okay to say you're autistic. I don't define my entire personality and my entire being based on being autistic, because I'm not just autistic. I'm neurodivergent. I have multiple, multiple types of. Of behaviors and nuances to my brain. Autism isn't a physical form. It's not like that's your leg and that's your haircut. It is a set of behaviors which is in your head. You can't represent that Visually and to do so I think is counterproductive. It just is. And I'm shocked that so many advocates that I have a lot of respect for didn't just go, oh, this is a really cool thing. They went like, this is the greatest thing that has ever happened. And I'm not even joking. They were like, this is the greatest thing that's ever happened to the autistic community ever. And I'm like, whoa, chill out. I mean I, I would rather look to Bob's Burgers for autistic representation because every single one of those kids is completely different and represents so many different types of autistic people I met. They don't need visualization because autism is behaviors, not fidget spinners.

Ashley Bentley (26:21)

Totally agreed. Although interesting. Did you have you heard. I think this also came out in the last couple of weeks about, and this makes a lot of sense for my life, but I know not every autistic person has this visual representation, but a larger sticking out bottom is. Have you guys heard about this?

Jordan James (26:44)

I mean I have one, but is that something I can purchase to make it come or is that a Barbie doll?

Ashley Bentley (26:49)

I do too. No, I mean this apparently due to, apparently this can be. And it's the case in my, in my life. And I mean when I was little I got, oh my God, I had a, I got bullied in tease. I got called big butt and people used to sort of imitate the way that I walked. And yeah, my bottom did stick out and I worked really hard to try and sort of, you know, obviously I will always have a large bottom but try to not have it in my posture stick out so much. But yeah, I didn't know if the two of you had heard about this and why so why didn't they add a bigger bottom to Barbie?

Jordan James (27:29)

Are you saying it's related to what being neurodivergent?

Ashley Bentley (27:33)

Yeah, yeah.

Jordan James (27:34)

Not all the biscuits I ate. Right, good. Enough said, enough said. Autism caused my dry bump.

Jordan Simon (27:40)

There's the curvature of the spine as well. Isn't that there's like a lot of people sort of discussing and because to be fair, I, it's, it's difficult isn't it? Because I, I, I, I, I completely agree with that, with everything that's sort of been discussed. But if they were to do like physical representations, that that is, is educational in a way, isn't it? It's raising an awareness, it's creating a dialogue about these are physical and it's not necessarily like behavioralism. It could be just having a curvature at the top of your neck and like hypermobility as well. That could have been something that could have maybe potentially have been discussed in it.

Jordan James (28:23)

And apparently she does have bendy limbs.

Jordan Simon (28:26)

All right.

Jordan James (28:27)

I don't know how to, to represent some sort of stimming. Like I said a little, little thing on the back that you push a little button. I don't know. Karate chop Barbie. Honestly, it's, it's, it's so bizarre to me. Like, and, and, and I, I don't want to take happiness away from people, but I'm, I'm still, I'm a realist and, and I'm not pessimist. I want to be happy, but I can't see this is being positive in the way that this, I just see it. Like, if they come out and go, oh, there's an autistic Barbie. It's out there now. I'd have been like, okay, cool. But it's like the, oh, like the overjoy or the seething hatred and it's, there's this. One of the worst seething hatreds that I've seen is from the, and I hate this phrase, the autism parent or autism mum community that define their entire being online by their child being autistic. That somehow that defines their characteristic as an autism mom. It's, it's a very American thing, but it's also spreading across the world as most American things do. That's like having a child with glasses and saying, I'm a partially blind mum. It's like, well, you're not. Your, your kid's partially blind. You, you are not, but you can be an autistic mum. But the autism mum community as they are, they decided to make their own version of this Barbie through AI, as everyone likes to do. And that's even more insulting because, oh.

Ashley Bentley (30:04)

What have they done?

Jordan James (30:05)

Oh, there's lots of different pictures, but essentially it's showing Barbie of broken things, only half dressed set, different socks, like Meltdown Barbie. It's basically Meltdown Barbie. People have made ADHD Barbie. I quite like the ADHD Barbie. She's in a town, her hair's a mess. And I'm just like, that's a bit insulting, but also quite funny because that's what I look like most days. But it's, it's, it's other people making a mockery, giving visual representations. But then it's, it's also the autism mum community going, oh, you think that looks like autism? This is what autism looks like. And that's also counterproductive because that's making autism look like it's the worst thing ever. And I just think that you just stop giving it visual representations to stop doing that. Yeah, there's, there's. There's definitely, like, if you want to give autism a representation, it has to be a personality, not. Not a T shirt. Yeah.

Jordan Simon (31:08)

It can't just be something that you can buy in a store and hand somebody. It's. It's way more than that, dude.

Jordan James (31:15)

My favorite is PDA Barbie, which is essentially. She just looks like a. Like a.

Jordan Simon (31:20)

Will it not come out of the box? Is it just in there?

Jordan James (31:24)

When you pick up the box, it's facing the opposite direction and it's just swearing at you from behind. Yeah, no, PDA Barbie is. Is. Is very sexy, actually. Weirdly, it's like wearing like, a skull and crossbones T shirt, midriff showing and just like, giving the. Giving the finger. You.

Dr. Shoshana Ungerleiter (31:45)

Okay.

Jordan James (31:46)

And.

Jordan Simon (31:46)

And.

Jordan James (31:47)

And the T shirt basically says off on it. Apparently, like, again, not okay, but also quite.

Jordan Simon (31:55)

It is quite. That's. It's kind of funny, isn't it?

Jordan James (31:57)

Yeah, it is quite funny.

Jordan Simon (31:58)

I love people's sort of. Yeah.

Ashley Bentley (32:03)

It'S a bit of satire for the situation.

Jordan James (32:06)

It's definitely people who don't agree with the Barbie. It's people just going, oh, really? So if you're going to give representation to a neurodivergent community, then why don't we have ADHD Barbie? Why don't we have PDA Barbie? Why don't we have dyspraxic Barbie that, you know, as soon as you stand up, she could. She can't stay still. She keeps falling over. Like, you know, just. Honestly, I. I do feel it's because, like, autism is trendy almost. Do you know what I mean? It's kind of. Yeah, like you said, it's. It's icky.

Jordan Simon (32:41)

Well, it's not necessarily that it's trendy. It's that people have realized that it's profitable in the way that, like, Starbucks has, like, Gay Pride Month and will have rainbow cups, but only during Pride Month.

Jordan James (32:54)

Yeah, I'm surprised that they didn't bring this out in Autism Awareness Week, to be honest.

Jordan Simon (33:01)

But that sort of. Yeah. After the sort of conversation, I felt like I was like, oh, yeah, cool, Autistic Barbie makes sense. And now I go, huh, that. That makes sense in a bad way, unfortunately.

Jordan James (33:12)

So when you've met one autistic Barbie, you've met one autistic Barbie.

Ashley Bentley (33:18)

It's just always a shame, isn't it, when we see something that it kind of you can see that it sows discord amongst the autistic community. So it's always difficult when it feels like we're at odds with each other. And it sounds like the comments on your post and what's going on out there, people are really either in one camp or another. Except we all seem to be a little bit sort of like I can see both sides a bit but it is a bit sticky.

Jordan Simon (33:51)

You don't want a sticky Barbie. Well, this has been a really interesting hot topic. I feel like I've sort of just been a listener for this one, but I feel like I've learned a lot. Get in the comments, let us know what your opinions are on autistic Barbie. Do you feel like you're on the fence with it? Can you see the good but also see a lot of the misrepresentation? Really interested to hear the listeners opinion. Well Ashley, thank you so much for joining us for this hot topic. It was great to have you as a little special guest for us, helping us out here.

Ashley Bentley (34:17)

Thank you.

Jordan Simon (34:19)

No, it's always a pleasure and you will hear Ashley's voice on our feed from on Mindful Mondays, which will be on a Monday. And Jordan and I will be back in your feed on a Thursday with the neurodivergent Experience. So thank you for listening. Take care of yourself everybody. Be good out there. Be safe.

Jordan James (34:36)

I'll finish it on Jenny Bowden says autism does not have a look. What next? An OCD Barbie with a clean kit nightly. Bye.

Jordan Simon (34:52)

Thanks for tuning in to the neurodivergent Experience. We hope today's episode sparks something for you. Whether it's a new idea, a bit of validation, or just a moment of connection. Remember, new episodes are every week, so be sure to join us for the next one for more conversations and insights into the new neurodivergent Experience. If you've enjoyed this podcast, help us grow. You can do that by rating and reviewing this show. Your support makes a huge difference in helping us reach more people who could benefit from these conversations. You can connect with us on social media, find us on Instagram, Facebook, Tick tock. Just search for the Neurodivergent Experience. Thank you again for listening and until next time, take take care of yourself. You're not alone in this journey. Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.

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