Podcast Summary: The Neurodivergent Experience

Episode: Hot Topic: Neurodivergent Animals? The Problem Isn’t the Pets — It’s the Framing

Hosts: Jordan James ("The Autistic Photographer") & Simon Scott
Date: December 5, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode dives into the much-discussed (and debated) concept of “neurodivergent animals”—namely, whether pets like dogs can be considered autistic or ADHD, and what such labels suggest about both animals and humans. Hosts Jordan and Simon blend lived neurodivergent perspective, wit, and skepticism as they explore a recent article on “autistic dogs,” unpack the problems with anthropomorphizing animal behavior, criticize reductive labeling, and highlight the dangers of pathologizing difference—whether in pets or people. The episode oscillates between lighthearted anecdotes and a critical examination of how science and society “frame” neurodivergence.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Introduction & Personal Context (02:27 – 03:30)

• Jordan shares about recently adopting a sensitive rescue dog, setting the episode’s personal tone.
• The episode is inspired by an article from The Conversation titled “Autistic Dogs: Neurodiversity in our Pets and What it Might Mean for Us.”
• Quote [03:10]:
  “She’s definitely come to the right household. She’s a sensitive little thing... This article stood out to me... Autistic Dogs, Neurodiversity in our Pets.” — Jordan

2. The Science and Appeal of “Neurodivergent Animals” (03:30 – 06:34)

• The hosts summarize points from the article, such as the impossibility of directly diagnosing animals and the genetic/behavioral overlap between animals and human neurodivergence (e.g., serotonin and dopamine levels, genes associated with hypersociability or impulsivity).
• Simon (often referred to as “Neurodivergent Co-host”) expresses frustration at the article’s use of the term neurodiversity and points out how the scientific framing can be limiting and simplistic.
• Evolutionary diversity within a species is highlighted as essential—neurodivergence as the source of change and adaptation.
• Quote [05:46]:
  “But neurodivergence is like a river or a stream. It’s constantly moving, it’s constantly becoming new. You never see the same water twice... That’s our brains.” — Simon

3. Illustrative Anecdotes: Animals as Innovators (06:34 – 08:41)

• Jordan recounts a video of bonobo monkeys where one individual diverts from the group, inventing a new way to fish ants from a tree (“ant lollipop”); this is raised as an example of neurodivergence in non-human species.
• Simon connects this to personal life: the refusal to always “do things the way everyone else does” as a hallmark of neurodivergence, which is present in many species and crucial for evolution.
• Quote [07:52]:
  “It’s that ability to just not go with the crowd that we have. That’s the game changer right there.” — Simon

4. The Limits and Dangers of Labeling—‘Autistic Cats, ADHD Dogs’ (10:01 – 12:50)

• The hosts are critical of the pop-psychology tendency to assign human neurotypes to pets (“all cats are autistic,” “this dog has ADHD”) based on stereotypes—e.g., cats being solitary or dogs being energetic.
• Simon points out this is a “fundamental misunderstanding of what neurodivergence is,” noting that even among humans, neurodivergence isn’t neatly separable into “autism,” “ADHD,” etc. in daily lived experience.
• Quote [11:02]:
  “I can’t just narrow my entire existence down to autism and ADHD because that isn’t the truth... It’s a false narrative.” — Simon

5. Sensitivities, Trauma, and Animal Behavior (13:03 – 14:52)

• Jordan discusses family pets’ behaviors—his dog Pip’s sensory sensitivities (e.g., fear of fireworks), and his new dog Nana’s need for space—noting that instead of labeling these as “autistic,” he recognizes them as natural responses or preferences.
• Both hosts acknowledge the risk of conflating trauma responses and natural temperament with neurodivergence, which flattens nuance.

6. Scientific Framing: Risks, Bias, and the Need for Nuance (18:36 – 25:40)

• Upon reading further into the article, Simon is triggered by phrasing about “increased risk” connected to animal models of autism, highlighting how even purportedly positive scientific coverage frames neurodivergence as negative or pathological.

• The hosts lampoon approach of “scientists” who reduce complex difference to “risk” and design studies with unacknowledged bias.

• Quote [19:43]:
  “So there’s me talking about how brilliant it is, how helpful it is, advantageous to the species it is, and there’s another article that says risk.” — Simon

• They critique the paternalistic tone of the article, which reduces the issue to “training” neurodivergent kids or animals, missing the real point: acceptance and useful support.

• Memorable exchange [23:37]:
  Jordan: “Hey, maybe Simon would have listened to you better if you trained him with a clicker.”
  Simon: “Yeah, I should have got the Dog Whisperer to train my children...”

7. The Core Critique: Pathology Versus Acceptance (25:40 – 28:21)

• Both hosts stress that science is supposed to start without predetermined bias—yet autism research frequently begins on the premise that neurodivergence is a problem to be solved.
• Simon likens this to detectives deciding on a suspect before seeing the evidence (quoting a Stephen King story about a wrongly accused man).
• Diagnosis is not inherently the problem; the issue is the negative framing and underlying aim to “fix” people who are just different.
• Quote [28:14]:
  “If people don’t understand that [neurodivergence as an alternative neurotype], then the science is always going to be misleading. It’s always going to be bias.” — Simon

8. Advocacy: “Nothing About Us Without Us” (28:21 – 29:08)

• Jordan emphasizes the importance of including neurodivergent people in autism research, as experts and creators, not just as subjects.
• Quote [29:05]:
  “If you’re gonna do studies about autism, quote, use autistic people as reference. Don’t use them as subjects.” — Jordan

9. Lighthearted Wrap-up & Takeaways (29:08 – 29:48)

• The episode closes with encouragements to listeners: support each other, drop the biases, and let “dogs be dogs”—and people, people.
• Both hosts sign off with their usual blend of camaraderie and advocacy: “Be kind to yourself. Be good. Stay well read and don’t have any predetermined bias about autism unless you know.” (29:36)

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “But neurodivergence is like a river or a stream. It’s constantly moving, it’s constantly becoming new. You never see the same water twice... That’s our brains.” (05:46) — Simon
• “I can’t just narrow my entire existence down to autism and ADHD because that isn’t the truth... It’s a false narrative.” (11:02) — Simon
• “So there’s me talking about how brilliant it is, how helpful it is, advantageous to the species it is, and there’s another article that says risk.” (19:43) — Simon
• “If you’re gonna do studies about autism, quote, use autistic people as reference. Don’t use them as subjects.” (29:05) — Jordan

Flow & Tone

The episode is conversational, playful, and intensely reflective, mixing personal stories with clear-eyed critique. Both hosts are quick-witted, frank, and unafraid to call out what they see as the failings of both scientific research and popular writing on neurodivergence. There’s plenty of humor—the kind with an edge—but the underlying message is one of respect for difference, insistence on nuance, and a wish for acceptance rather than pathologizing.

Key Takeaways

• While research reveals overlaps between animal and human neurodiversity, simplistic labels (“autistic dog,” “ADHD cat”) risk perpetuating stereotypes and miss the complexity of both animal and human behavior.
• Scientific and societal framing still too often pathologizes difference, treating neurodivergence as a “risk” or a problem to be solved.
• The real answer is not more rigid labels or training, but deeper understanding, respect, and meeting needs—whether for pets or people.
• Including neurodivergent voices in research moves the narrative from simplistic and pathologizing toward truly inclusive science and advocacy.

End of Summary