Hot Topic: Neurodivergent Animals? The Problem Isn’t the Pets — It’s the Framing

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Neurodivergent Experience

Episode: Hot Topic: Neurodivergent Animals? The Problem Isn’t the Pets — It’s the Framing

Hosts: Jordan James ("The Autistic Photographer") & Simon Scott
Date: December 5, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the much-discussed (and debated) concept of “neurodivergent animals”—namely, whether pets like dogs can be considered autistic or ADHD, and what such labels suggest about both animals and humans. Hosts Jordan and Simon blend lived neurodivergent perspective, wit, and skepticism as they explore a recent article on “autistic dogs,” unpack the problems with anthropomorphizing animal behavior, criticize reductive labeling, and highlight the dangers of pathologizing difference—whether in pets or people. The episode oscillates between lighthearted anecdotes and a critical examination of how science and society “frame” neurodivergence.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Introduction & Personal Context (02:27 – 03:30)

• Jordan shares about recently adopting a sensitive rescue dog, setting the episode’s personal tone.
• The episode is inspired by an article from The Conversation titled “Autistic Dogs: Neurodiversity in our Pets and What it Might Mean for Us.”
• Quote [03:10]:
  “She’s definitely come to the right household. She’s a sensitive little thing... This article stood out to me... Autistic Dogs, Neurodiversity in our Pets.” — Jordan

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2. The Science and Appeal of “Neurodivergent Animals” (03:30 – 06:34)

• The hosts summarize points from the article, such as the impossibility of directly diagnosing animals and the genetic/behavioral overlap between animals and human neurodivergence (e.g., serotonin and dopamine levels, genes associated with hypersociability or impulsivity).
• Simon (often referred to as “Neurodivergent Co-host”) expresses frustration at the article’s use of the term neurodiversity and points out how the scientific framing can be limiting and simplistic.
• Evolutionary diversity within a species is highlighted as essential—neurodivergence as the source of change and adaptation.
• Quote [05:46]:
  “But neurodivergence is like a river or a stream. It’s constantly moving, it’s constantly becoming new. You never see the same water twice... That’s our brains.” — Simon

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3. Illustrative Anecdotes: Animals as Innovators (06:34 – 08:41)

• Jordan recounts a video of bonobo monkeys where one individual diverts from the group, inventing a new way to fish ants from a tree (“ant lollipop”); this is raised as an example of neurodivergence in non-human species.
• Simon connects this to personal life: the refusal to always “do things the way everyone else does” as a hallmark of neurodivergence, which is present in many species and crucial for evolution.
• Quote [07:52]:
  “It’s that ability to just not go with the crowd that we have. That’s the game changer right there.” — Simon

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4. The Limits and Dangers of Labeling—‘Autistic Cats, ADHD Dogs’ (10:01 – 12:50)

• The hosts are critical of the pop-psychology tendency to assign human neurotypes to pets (“all cats are autistic,” “this dog has ADHD”) based on stereotypes—e.g., cats being solitary or dogs being energetic.
• Simon points out this is a “fundamental misunderstanding of what neurodivergence is,” noting that even among humans, neurodivergence isn’t neatly separable into “autism,” “ADHD,” etc. in daily lived experience.
• Quote [11:02]:
  “I can’t just narrow my entire existence down to autism and ADHD because that isn’t the truth... It’s a false narrative.” — Simon

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5. Sensitivities, Trauma, and Animal Behavior (13:03 – 14:52)

• Jordan discusses family pets’ behaviors—his dog Pip’s sensory sensitivities (e.g., fear of fireworks), and his new dog Nana’s need for space—noting that instead of labeling these as “autistic,” he recognizes them as natural responses or preferences.
• Both hosts acknowledge the risk of conflating trauma responses and natural temperament with neurodivergence, which flattens nuance.

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6. Scientific Framing: Risks, Bias, and the Need for Nuance (18:36 – 25:40)

• Upon reading further into the article, Simon is triggered by phrasing about “increased risk” connected to animal models of autism, highlighting how even purportedly positive scientific coverage frames neurodivergence as negative or pathological.

• The hosts lampoon approach of “scientists” who reduce complex difference to “risk” and design studies with unacknowledged bias.

• Quote [19:43]:
  “So there’s me talking about how brilliant it is, how helpful it is, advantageous to the species it is, and there’s another article that says risk.” — Simon

• They critique the paternalistic tone of the article, which reduces the issue to “training” neurodivergent kids or animals, missing the real point: acceptance and useful support.

• Memorable exchange [23:37]:
  Jordan: “Hey, maybe Simon would have listened to you better if you trained him with a clicker.”
  Simon: “Yeah, I should have got the Dog Whisperer to train my children...”

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7. The Core Critique: Pathology Versus Acceptance (25:40 – 28:21)

• Both hosts stress that science is supposed to start without predetermined bias—yet autism research frequently begins on the premise that neurodivergence is a problem to be solved.
• Simon likens this to detectives deciding on a suspect before seeing the evidence (quoting a Stephen King story about a wrongly accused man).
• Diagnosis is not inherently the problem; the issue is the negative framing and underlying aim to “fix” people who are just different.
• Quote [28:14]:
  “If people don’t understand that [neurodivergence as an alternative neurotype], then the science is always going to be misleading. It’s always going to be bias.” — Simon

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8. Advocacy: “Nothing About Us Without Us” (28:21 – 29:08)

• Jordan emphasizes the importance of including neurodivergent people in autism research, as experts and creators, not just as subjects.
• Quote [29:05]:
  “If you’re gonna do studies about autism, quote, use autistic people as reference. Don’t use them as subjects.” — Jordan

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9. Lighthearted Wrap-up & Takeaways (29:08 – 29:48)

• The episode closes with encouragements to listeners: support each other, drop the biases, and let “dogs be dogs”—and people, people.
• Both hosts sign off with their usual blend of camaraderie and advocacy: “Be kind to yourself. Be good. Stay well read and don’t have any predetermined bias about autism unless you know.” (29:36)

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “But neurodivergence is like a river or a stream. It’s constantly moving, it’s constantly becoming new. You never see the same water twice... That’s our brains.” (05:46) — Simon
• “I can’t just narrow my entire existence down to autism and ADHD because that isn’t the truth... It’s a false narrative.” (11:02) — Simon
• “So there’s me talking about how brilliant it is, how helpful it is, advantageous to the species it is, and there’s another article that says risk.” (19:43) — Simon
• “If you’re gonna do studies about autism, quote, use autistic people as reference. Don’t use them as subjects.” (29:05) — Jordan

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Flow & Tone

The episode is conversational, playful, and intensely reflective, mixing personal stories with clear-eyed critique. Both hosts are quick-witted, frank, and unafraid to call out what they see as the failings of both scientific research and popular writing on neurodivergence. There’s plenty of humor—the kind with an edge—but the underlying message is one of respect for difference, insistence on nuance, and a wish for acceptance rather than pathologizing.

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Key Takeaways

• While research reveals overlaps between animal and human neurodiversity, simplistic labels (“autistic dog,” “ADHD cat”) risk perpetuating stereotypes and miss the complexity of both animal and human behavior.
• Scientific and societal framing still too often pathologizes difference, treating neurodivergence as a “risk” or a problem to be solved.
• The real answer is not more rigid labels or training, but deeper understanding, respect, and meeting needs—whether for pets or people.
• Including neurodivergent voices in research moves the narrative from simplistic and pathologizing toward truly inclusive science and advocacy.

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End of Summary

Transcript

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[Neurodivergent Co-host]

Oh, hot, hot, hot, hot, hot, hot.

[Jordan]

Hot, hot, hot, hot.

[Neurodivergent Co-host]

Hello and welcome to the Neuro Spicy.

[Jordan]

Submarine.

Yeah, I'll have a better hot song for you next week. I need to. It's a hot news night and we've been working. Got a dog. Yeah.

[Neurodivergent Co-host]

Which is what we're gonna talk about. We're talking about autistic dogs or ADHD dogs or neurodivergent dogs. Dogs.

[Jordan]

Which does absolutely make sense, doesn't it? So obviously keen listeners of the show or people that or five of you that are in my life on a consistent basis will know that I have adopted a dog this week. And having her here has been honestly an absolute joy. But she's definitely come to the right household. My. My little, Little Miss Piggy. Because.

She'S definitely come to the right household. She's a sensitive little thing, but this article stood out to me. Once again, we're looking at the Conversation, which is a website that I find many art interesting articles in. And this one is titled Autistic Dogs Neurodiversity in our Pets and what it Might mean for us.

[Neurodivergent Co-host]

I'm disappointed with them for using the word neurodiversity, but there you go. Oh well, I'm disappointed with everyone for everything.

[Jordan]

Okay, well it's a great start from, from Jordan's perspective. So the article reads. Animals cannot directly tell us how they perceive the world or answer typical diagnostic questions. We can only ever describe animal behavior through the lens of our own understanding, such as labelling some dogs as impulsive. For those dogs, however, their outward impulsivity might be normal behaviour for their breed, in the same way that many cats are solitary. However, research indicates that a range of species, including dogs, rats, mice and non human primates can show genetic and behavioral signs of neurodivergence. For instance, structural differences in genes known to be associated with hypersocial behaviour have been found in dogs, whereas impulsive behavior in dogs is linked to low levels of the neurotransmitters serotonin and dopamine, which is important for emotional stability, while dopamine helps with focus.

[Neurodivergent Co-host]

I just keep seeing the word neurodiversity in this article and it's trickling me. I have so much tism right now.

[Jordan]

Yes.

[Neurodivergent Co-host]

So I'm just going to get over that because otherwise I'll ruin the story because it is, it's quite, it's very, very sweet. It really is. It's very interesting as well because like I said, this is evolution and the neurodivergence, divergence, diversity, neurodivergence within the species is necessary for that species to diverge.

And.

I'm on one today. And if we don't have that difference in thinking, then like species won't be able to move forward. They just stagnate. So I've, I've kind of looked at it. It's like the, the neurotypical brain is kind of like a pond or, or a lake, right? It's, it stagnates. It might be beautiful and it might be useful. And there's lots of things that ponds can do. Amazing. Ponds are amazing. Full of life, full of ponds.

[Jordan]

Full.

[Neurodivergent Co-host]

Of frogs, lots of frogs. But neurodivergence is like a river or a stream. It's constantly moving, it's constantly becoming new. You will never see the same thing, you never see the same water twice because it's constantly on the move. That's our brains. That's what we bring to. To the species is this constant movement, constant change. And it only makes sense that it exists that that divergence of the species exists within other species. So I would have said that it's just a mammal thing or just an animal thing, but it probably exists in, in everything, like, just everything, like, because otherwise how would. How would things change? I do believe this is the, the change gene.

[Jordan]

Yeah. And that's one of the things that I often think about. I remember seeing this video a long time ago, and I think it was bonobos, nobo monkeys, which are like one of the closest genetic, like, ties to us. But even the way that they have, like, monogamous relationships compared to other apes and things like that, like, they're very similar to us as a species. And I vividly remember seeing this video of them. And all of these little apes are like, around this tree with an ant hill in it, and they're all sticking their fingers in and licking it, and they're getting a few apes, like a few ants at a time. And there's one particular one that's just sort of sat on his own and he's, he's looking around and sort of in his own little space, and he takes a twig and he rubs it along the trig covered in SAP, sticks it in and makes an ant lollipop. That. That is in action.

[Neurodivergent Co-host]

Dude. You're in our brains. That is.

That is the example I give to people about neurodivergence within, especially the other primate species, because, you know, we are apes. Hello, people.

Is, is that exact thing, that exact thing that you've just brought up, that's like hive mind. By the way, we're gonna definitely do an episode on a Hive mind.

But yeah, it's, it's, it is 100. It's like that. It's like different thinking of like, oh, I'm not gonna do everything like everyone else. And, and it's, it's so comm. It's like demand avoidance, you know, huge disability for me, but also it stops me from just doing the things that everybody tells me to do. I'm very, very much an independent person. I will own, you know, I sing by own my own tune. And it's, it's that ability to just not go with the crowd.

That we have. That's, that's the game changer right there. The. You know, that's why we all of us are trying so hard to fit in, but we, we don't because it's not natural for us to fit in.

[Jordan]

And this is what I find interesting. Just sort of leaning back to this article. It discusses the model. These models are developed for selective breed laboratory housed animals and might not fully represent typical population diversity. However, they are still valuable in helping understand the biological basis of neurodivergence. For example, some beagle dogs have a mutation in a gene called SHANK3, which is linked with autistics and often characterized by difficulties in social interactions. Beagles with the SHANK3 mutation also exhibit a low desire to interact with people. Turns out that they have a reduced cell to cell signaling in regions of the brain linked with attention. So that's essentially synaptic pruning that it's describing there is it, if I, if I understand it correctly, demonstrates less of what is known as new as neural coupling with people. Neurocoupling is where the brain activity of two or more individuals aligns when interacting. It typically occurs when people are storytelling or teaching. But a recent study also found it happens when dogs and humans gaze into each other's eyes. Might result in impaired neural processing and signaling, limiting spontaneous social interaction and bonding between dogs and people. However, multiple factors are involved in the development of the development of brain and behavior.

[Neurodivergent Co-host]

See, my, my issue with this is just. You just hitting the flipping stereotypes again. Yeah, it's kind of that, like that book there's all cats are autistic and it's like, okay, what makes a cat autistic? It's a fun thing, but a lot of people don't know cats are autistic. And it's, it's all because they're solitary because, you know, they like being by themselves. And I'm like, oh, just I'm autistic. I, I like being by myself, but I love being around other people. Like, it's, it's so annoying. And then it's like this dog is ADHD because it likes to run around a lot. And I'm like, yeah.

I'm not saying that, that they're not neurodivergent. I'm saying if that's, if that's what makes you think they are, then it's just a fundamental misunderstanding of what neurodivergence is because it's again, separating that neurodivergence. This is autistic, this is adhd. This is this, this is that. And it's all the same brain. And it's very, very handy with humans where you can think, okay, well this is autistic. That is adhd. Because that is how we get Help. Yes, but, but when I'm not being a specialist or when I'm not advocating, when I'm just at home chilling with my family, we don't go, that's an autistic thing, that's an ADHD thing, that's a dyslexia thing. We just go, you neurodivergent? That, that we just, we say, well, we're neurodivergent. We don't say, oh, I'm autistic and that, but that, that's my advocacy. That's how I reach other people. Because that's what most people understand. But on a day to day basis, I don't, we don't really use those words because we don't separate it. This is why I don't really like the phrase or dhd. People can use it all the light. I'm not like, oh, you shouldn't use that. I'm not that person. I hate those people. It's, it's just, I've never used it for me, because I'm literally just. But I was like, yeah, but I'm also dyslexic, so where am I fitting that in there? I'm also dyspaxic, so where am I fitting that in there? I'm also, you know, I've got PTSD or ptsi. Where am I going to fit? I can't, I can't just narrow my entire existence down to autism and adhd because that isn't the truth. It's, it's a, it's a false narrative of the. These are two things in my brain that is not how that works. It is just a brain and it's neurodivergent and it has lots and lots of things that I do and you can label each one of them. That's fine. I have no issue with that whatsoever. But I'm not going to label what, how my brain works. It just.

Is more nuanced than that. So the idea of like dog running around really fast, adhd, oh, cat sitting in the corner. Doesn't like me. Autism. That's actually rude.

[Jordan]

Yeah, that's a, yeah, that's an interesting point because when I think about like. And we'll wrap up here shortly, but when I think about.

The, the animals that are in my life, my mum and dad's dog, Pip, has extreme sensory sensitivities. Like he doesn't like being touched in certain parts of his body. He really struggles with loud noises. Like, even if there's a bang, like, he will shake and he'll hide himself away. But he hasn't had any experiences that could be sort of like a PTSD response, like a trauma response.

[Neurodivergent Co-host]

Yeah, because that was where my brain first went. Because that's what Milo's like, because he has trauma responses, especially freaking fireworks.

[Jordan]

That's the same with Pip, is he's absolutely terrified of fireworks. But he kind of has been from sort of day one. And I think about the little dog that I've got, Nana. She is at the moment, obviously she's been rehomed and she's resettling and she's sort of finding her place and her space. But there have been a couple of times where she's been sat with us and she has just got up and gone and sat on her own. And I haven't gone, oh, autistic doggy. I've gone, well, obviously she wants her own space, so I'm just going to allow her to have her own space. At no point did I go, ah, autistic dog. I went, ah, I relate to that because I like my own space as well. Because there was a period of time last night where she was laid on, on my knee and she fell asleep and started snoring and the vibration on my leg wasn't triggering, but it was a little unusual. It's a new sensation for me.

[Neurodivergent Co-host]

Yeah.

[Jordan]

And I was sort of sat there like.

Do I want her to move? Do I not want her to move? And she naturally picked up on my energy and just sort of moved up.

[Neurodivergent Co-host]

It's got bit. Oh, that's, that's, that's annoyed me. So I scrolled down on the article and there's this section that has annoyed me. But let's have a little break.

And then I'll get into it as only I do.

[Jordan]

Yay. I guess we'll be right back.

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Welcome back to your Hot topic for this week. We've been discussing discussing autistic animals because apparently there's a research that our pets may have autism and what it may mean for us as people. However, we have scrolled down the article and we were like, oh, this is quite cute and interesting. And then Jordan's gone. Hold up. Wait a minute. Salmon ain't right.

[Neurodivergent Co-host]

I'm gonna give you a Jordan reality chat. Oh, no, because I, I do find that there are so many people out there advocating or writing articles. It's all positive and they think they're doing the right thing.

But my, my autistic, neurodivergent superpower is to smash people's dreams and bring reality crashing down on them.

[Jordan]

Oh no.

[Neurodivergent Co-host]

So, I mean, I could be completely wrong because remember, I am dyslexic and I'm half reading this. It says modeling animal autism. So scientists. I love the word scientists. Dave and Steve, the scientists and Melanie. Scientists have developed animal models of autism. Have they now? To help them understand factors linked to increased risk. Risk.

Increased risk is the risk. So there's me talking about how brilliant it is, how helpful it is, advantageous to the species it is. And there's another article that says risk.

[Jordan]

I'm.

[Neurodivergent Co-host]

I'm at risk of losing my. That's what I'm at risk of. Okay. So anyway, factors linked to increased risk and to be able to explore potential therapeutic support. Great.

[Jordan]

I'll tell you not to. When you scroll right down to the bottom of the article, it says neurodiverse behaviors.

And what do you think it starts with? What the first two words.

[Neurodivergent Co-host]

I don't want to know because I.

[Jordan]

Leave your old problem.

[Neurodivergent Co-host]

Oh, I thought this was a happy. This was about doggies. It said doggies. There's a picture of a doggy. And we didn't read it.

[Jordan]

We skimmed. Well, we did the typical ADHD thing of we skim read it and went, oh, doggy.

[Neurodivergent Co-host]

Yeah, we, we don't prepare for these, by the way, people. We. We just sort of. We literally look up an article about five minutes before we start and we're like, that'll work.

[Jordan]

And it's authentic. It's nice.

[Neurodivergent Co-host]

Well, yeah, I mean, that's the neurodivergent experience. You are learning about it as we're learning about it, which. And I'm not happy with what I'm.

[Jordan]

Learning, so here we go. Let me read this for you and we'll. You can have a little rage and then we'll wrap up. Some of the reported behavioral concerns, such as separation related behaviors. Fear, anxiety and obsessive behavior mimic challenges associated with some form of neurodivergence in people. Managing pets with such behavioral problems can be distressing and may even lead to rehoming or euthanasia. Perhaps this could sometimes be avoided if owners had a better understanding of what was going on. In short, the evidence suggests that, like us, animals can experience and respond to the world differently. Surprised? It took research to figure that out. Some of this will be due to natural differences in personality. But it's also likely that a proportion of our pets have differences in their brain structure and their chemistry. Neurodivergent children benefit from an appreciation of their specific and sometimes complex needs. Perhaps we can also create enriching management and training approaches for our potentially neurodivergent animal companions. Just let them be dogs. Let a dog be a dog.

[Neurodivergent Co-host]

I think people need to chill the out.

It sounds to me like again, this whole. Oh, it's a scary thing. It's coming to get you.

[Jordan]

Not only getting your children, it's gonna get your pets as well.

[Neurodivergent Co-host]

It's like, just be accommodating. Just be nice. Just be. Just be a good person. I just wish people would. I don't know, it's like, it's really interesting thing that, like, people are researching things, I guess, but it's like, but how helpful is this? Because I know that it talks about, oh, this might actually. This modeling and looking into this thing might help us diagnose autism in people. But we. We can already do that. So.

[Jordan]

Yeah, that's like. Yeah, actually, that's a really. That's almost like.

[Neurodivergent Co-host]

It's not like we're struggling. We're just struggling with the amount of people and the resources to do it. The resources. If we had more resources than. Honestly, like, diagnosing people or assessing people or discovering neurodivergent people, isn't that hard, Honestly, especially if you give a neurodivergent person that job.

[Jordan]

Or. You were at the Beatles Museum at half past eleven last Saturday, just all the tism. We were all there, weren't we? Like a little meeting. It was great.

Yeah. Well, you know, this is. This is what you get for trying to do a fun little story about some doggies. And then you read the small print and you go, oh, they're trying to heal us again, trying to fix us, rather than just understanding that we have support needs and that we just need them for improving our lives. And it's. We're not asking for too much, I don't think.

Well, what have you read now?

[Neurodivergent Co-host]

No, it's just when they're talking about, like, training the dogs and I'm just like, you're just comparing neurodivergent children to dogs?

[Jordan]

Hey, maybe. Maybe Simon would have listened to you better if you trained him with a clicker.

[Neurodivergent Co-host]

Yeah, yeah, that's. I should have got that. The dog whisperer to train my children. Honestly, it's. It's, it's. It, like there's so much of it is just. That's insulting, that's rude, that's harmful. And it's just that rhetoric as well, of, like, this is a bad thing. This is a bad thing. It's not a good thing. Where in that article does it say anything? Like, what I was saying of, like, this is actually a good thing. This is advantageous. Where is that? Why isn't that in the article? They start off really well like, oh, this is a really cool thing. But they completely and utterly miss the, the reality of, of what it is. They miss the point. And it makes me laugh when people go, scientists did this. And I go, well, that's a shit scientist. I'm sorry. Well, no, I'm not sorry. Fuck you. That is a shit scientist. If you don't understand what you're freaking doing, if what you're researching, you don't understand the fundamentals and both sides of the coin. If you go into it with Scarface, scratched up side of a coin of this is neurodivergence rather than the flippity flippy, you get to live now and happy side of the coin, you are a bad scientist because you are literally, you've got an idea before you're even doing it.

[Jordan]

The whole point of science can't have a predetermined bias. If you're going to do an experiment.

[Neurodivergent Co-host]

That the whole point of science is you start with a blank slate. You go, I don't know exactly what this thing is, but the, their cognitive dissonance means that they think they do.

[Jordan]

It's like being a detective and already you've not even got to the crime scene and you already have your witness, your suspect. Sorry, you're like, I've literally just found out there's a crime. I'm not even going to go to the crime scene. I've decided that this person is the first suspect. You can't do that.

[Neurodivergent Co-host]

There is a great. It's a recent book by Stephen King. It's a whole bunch of different stories, very short stories, brilliant book. And there's a story in it that basically follows a man who had a dream, fully a dream about where a dead body is.

[Jordan]

Right.

[Neurodivergent Co-host]

Someone was murdered. And he dreams about this location. And then he goes to the location and he finds the dead body, calls it in anonymously because he's scared, and then leaves it. Yeah. The police do find out who he is, contact him, and straight away, one of the detectives, like, he definitely did it. He knew exactly where. And okay, it's fantasy and, and, but essentially you as the reader know that, that he dreamed it. He did not kill anyone. He's got the shining, he's got the shinning. Yeah. All in his shins. But this detective is just convinced. He definitely, and he will. He literally, he doesn't look at any of the evidence that shows that this guy is innocent because he's convinced he's guilty.

[Jordan]

Man found body, man made body. Case closed.

[Neurodivergent Co-host]

That's it. And, and it literally, it's, it's. I'M not going to spoil it for you. It's a very, very good short story. But that, that's kind of like the science of autism now. Like just all of it. It's like, oh, well, this is obviously a bad thing, so let's figure out how we're going to combat it. And if you don't understand the nuances, you don't understand the positivity of the neurodivergent brain. Not necessarily autism, adhd, all these labels, because on paper they are negative things. You are diagnosed with this problem, this condition, and whether you agree with that or not, it is what it is. But my. What I'm saying is that there is so much more to it, which is why we say it's the alternative neurotype. We are born this way, we are evolved this way. Neurodivergence does cover lots and lots of things that can happen after birth. But when we talk about neurodivergence, we're talking about people who are born neurodivergent. We're not trying to leave anyone out deliberately. We're not trying to tell people that they're not neurodivergent.

[Jordan]

There are experiences, there are perspectives, but that's.

[Neurodivergent Co-host]

We're talking about us. We're talking about the people we know. And all of that is people who are born neurodivergent. But like I'm saying, it's the. It's the alternative neurotype. And if people don't understand that.

Then the science is always going to be misleading. It's always going to be bias.

[Jordan]

Very good point. And this is why, you know, I find these conversations so interesting, because that's what our brains do, is we look at a story and then we find the nuance in it and we dig deeper and we can sort of see angles that people aren't seeing. And you're so right. I wish people would really stop coming to the table of trying to understand just neurodivergent people in general. One, without even sort of consolidating them, and two, going in with that predetermined bias. We're going, this is bad. Autism's bad. We're going to fix the tisn. And this is why I love this phrase. Nothing about us, without us. If you're gonna do studies about autism, quote, use autistic people as reference. Don't use them as subjects.

[Neurodivergent Co-host]

Use autistic people who know what they're talking about.

[Jordan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Well, this has been your hot topic for this week. We will be back next week on Thursday with your usual programming. And don't forget Ashley's mindful Monday. Start your week with purpose every single Monday. Tune into that on your feed. Well, we will be back. Thank you so much for listening. Take your little doggy out for a walk. That's what I'm about to go and do. And be kind to yourself. Be good. Stay, stay well read and don't have any predetermined bias about autism unless you.

[Neurodivergent Co-host]

Know thank you nightly.

[Jordan]

Thanks for tuning in to the neurodivergent Experience. We hope today's episode sparked something for you. Whether it's a new idea, a bit of validation, or just a moment of connection, Remember, new episodes are every week, so be sure to join us for the next one for more conversations and insights into the neurodivergent experience. If you've enjoyed this podcast, help us grow. You can do that by rating and reviewing this show. Your support makes a huge difference in helping us reach more people who could benefit from these conversations. You can connect with us on social media, find us on Instagram, Facebook, Tik tok. Just search for the neurod Divergent Experience. Thank you again for listening and until next time, take care of yourself. You're not alone in this journey.

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