Hot Topic: Neurodivergent Conservation - How Special Interests Can Help Save The Planet

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Neurodivergent Experience

Episode Title: Hot Topic: Neurodivergent Conservation – How Special Interests Can Help Save The Planet

Date: August 14, 2025
Hosts: Jordan James (“The Autistic Photographer”) and Simon Scott
Special Guests: Sophie James (Marine Biologist), Eden Scher

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode dives into the unique relationship between neurodivergence—particularly autism and ADHD—and the world of conservation. The hosts and their guests explore how traits commonly found in neurodivergent people, like hyperfocus and strong moral drives, become powerful assets in protecting the planet. Personal stories and expert insight highlight why neurodivergent individuals are overrepresented in conservation roles and why their contributions matter more than ever.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Stage: Neurodiversity and Conservation

[01:55–04:23]

• Introduction to the core topic: how neurodivergent traits such as hyperfocus and special interests translate into strengths for saving the environment.
  • “Neurodiversity, meaning all brain types—not neurodivergent people alone but also neurotypical—within the human species is vital to the survival of our species and other species we influence.” —Brock Ciarlelli [04:00]
• Notable statistic: 30% of conservation employees are estimated to be neurodivergent, much higher than the general population (cited in Joe Harkness’s book, Neurodivergent by Nature).

2. The Power and Pitfall of Hyperfocus

[05:49–09:33]

• Neurodivergent people’s “hyperfocus” (sometimes called “obsession”) leads them to approach tasks with extraordinary attention to detail and a drive for deep, complete understanding.
  • “A neurodivergent person needs to count all the trees, log them, look at the different types of trees... before they will call it a forest.” —Brock Ciarlelli [07:52]
• Contrast between bottom-up (neurodivergent) vs. top-down (neurotypical) processing.
• Justice sensitivity: Many neurodivergent individuals feel a strong drive to protect what they care about.

3. Personal Story—Sophie’s Turtle Focus

[09:33–17:01]

• Sophie’s journey: Sparked by an early love of turtles at Brighton Sea Life Centre, she channels her special interest into a career (marine biology) aimed at conservation.
• The anecdote of hunting for a (giant!) LEGO man at the aquarium offers a humorous, relatable illustration of how hyperfocus can blind as well as clarify:
  • “We were so hyperfocused on finding a small LEGO man, it didn’t even register that it was huge!” —Brock Ciarlelli [12:00]
• Sophie differentiates between “fact-based” special interests (knowing every fact about a subject) and a justice-driven passion to intervene and protect.

4. The Importance of Different Neurodivergent Approaches in Conservation

[15:30–21:15]

• Discussion on the value of diverse strengths within teams: those who know everything about a species, those driven to protect, and those able to communicate.
  • “Having all kinds of aspects to a team trying to protect something... is really, really important.” —Sophie James [15:56]
• The vital role of internal motivation and justice sensitivity:
  • “I will do everything in my power to learn and be educated to be able to go and do that.” —Sophie James [20:16]
• Critical need for people working for the cause, not ego or external reward.

5. Obstacles in Academia and Neurodivergent Underutilization

[22:18–32:09]

• Sophie’s struggles in academia: Universities and institutions often fail to harness special interests, sticking to rigid dissertation and group work structures.
  • “If we understood neurodivergence more and how useful these brains are... we could do amazing, incredible things. And I just think it’s such a missed opportunity.” —Sophie James [29:52]
• Eden shares a similar experience with arts education—how freedom led to excellence.

6. Hope, Mentoring, and Looking Forward

[33:55–38:04]

• Sophie’s recent success: Graduating with a 2:1 in marine biology, preparing for her internship in Egypt to help save turtles.
• Sophie offers mentoring for teens and young adults on the spectrum.
  • Contact: Facebook “Sophie James” or email [e-mail] [37:14]
• Empowerment messages:
  • “You are all good enough. You just need to believe in yourself.” —Brock Ciarlelli [35:25]
  • “The worst bully I've ever had is me... Don’t tell yourself you can’t do it, because you can.” —Eden Scher [36:08]
• Plans to have Sophie return to share her adventures and further inspire listeners.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “A neurodivergent person needs to count all the trees... before they will call it a forest.”
  —Brock Ciarlelli [07:52]
• “I’m not a want-to-learn-every-single-fact [person]; I’m a ‘this is something wrong, I would do everything in my power... so one day I can be part of fixing this.’” —Sophie James [14:33]
• “If you let people paint with the paintbrush they want, you’ll get something special. You try and fit a square peg in a round hole—it isn’t going to work.” —Eden Scher [31:04]
• “Imagine if every neurodivergent person had supportive people... Instead of belittling and ostracizing, just imagine what we could achieve.” —Brock Ciarlelli [27:23]
• “We need... the ability to have a paintbrush, have the paints we want to paint with, and leave us the hell alone to do it.” —Eden Scher [31:04]
• “You are a shining beacon to all the neurodivergent people out there who think that they're not good enough.” —Brock Ciarlelli [35:25]

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• [01:55] – Introduction to the conservation & neurodivergence connection
• [04:23] – Article & statistics about neurodivergent conservationists
• [07:52] – Tree learning vs. forest learning—metaphor for neurodivergent processing
• [09:33] – Sophie’s origin story: falling for turtles
• [12:00] – The LEGO man story: The pitfalls of hyperfocus
• [15:56] – Team dynamics: Different passions & skills
• [20:16] – Sophie’s persistence and justice sensitivity
• [22:18] – Importance of blended neurotypical and neurodivergent voices
• [29:52] – Academia’s failure to capitalize on special interests
• [35:25] – Sophie’s achievements and messages of self-belief
• [37:14] – Contact information for Sophie’s mentoring work

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Flow & Tone

The episode is warm, personal, humorous, and genuine—balancing advocacy and heartfelt encouragement. The hosts and guests speak openly about their lived neurodivergent experience, validating both challenges (in education, in focus) and triumphs (turning a childhood interest into real-world impact).

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Final Words

The hosts conclude with calls for greater support for neurodivergent individuals in conservation and beyond—highlighting that true progress comes when people are allowed to pursue their passions in their own style.

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Contact/Socials:

• Sophie James: Facebook search “Sophie James” or email [e-mail]
• Podcast: Instagram @theneurodivergentexperiencepod | Facebook: The Neurodivergent Experience

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Transcript

[Brock Ciarlelli]

A PSA from Instacart. It's Sunday, 5pm you had a non stop weekend. You're running on empty and so is your fridge. You're in the trenches of the Sunday scaries. You don't have it in you to go to the store, but this is your reminder. You don't have to. You can get everything you need delivered through Instacart so that you can get what you really need. More time to do whatever you want. Instacart for. For one less Sunday.

[Sophie James]

Scary. We're here.

[Eden Scher]

Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.

[Sophie James]

I'm Eden Scher.

[Brock Ciarlelli]

And I'm Brock Ciarlelli.

[Sophie James]

We played best friends on the Middle.

[Brock Ciarlelli]

And became best friends in real life.

[Sophie James]

We're here to rewatch the Middle with all of you.

[Brock Ciarlelli]

Each week we'll recap an episode with behind the scenes stories, guest interviews and what we think now, many years later, there's a lot to dive into. So let's get to Midd.

[Eden Scher]

Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.

[Brock Ciarlelli]

Hot Topic. Hello and welcome to the Neuro Spicy News. Hot Topic.

[Eden Scher]

Hot, hot, hot. Feeling hot.

[Brock Ciarlelli]

Well, I mean it is hot. It's a heat wave again.

[Eden Scher]

Yes, it's. It's scorching, isn't it? I am stuck to my chair.

[Brock Ciarlelli]

I've got a fan. It's, it's. And it's not on Facebook, but you.

[Eden Scher]

Got a little fan club going.

[Brock Ciarlelli]

No, it's one of those big industrial fans. It's just like keeping me, keeping me from melting. But yeah, this, this week's Hot Topic we are talking about conservation and the link between neurodivergent people and the hyper focus of, of their special interests and how it can help save, save the planet. I think. Well, we, we can try anyway.

[Eden Scher]

We can try all the help we can get.

[Brock Ciarlelli]

Yeah, it's. It's on fire.

[Eden Scher]

Hence the fan.

[Brock Ciarlelli]

Yeah, hence the fan. Yeah, exactly. So luckily for us, we are joined by a marine biology degree person who is my baby girl, science Sophie. Hi, Zofi.

[Sophie James]

Hello.

[Brock Ciarlelli]

Hello. Welcome back. So this, this interest comes from an article. It's all about biodiversity. Okay. And it says intrinsically connected how human neurodiversity could help save nature. Which obviously piqued my interest because I love nature. It's, it's a big part of my photography and I love to show the world how beautiful nature is. So maybe people will be kinder to it. I guess that's about as much as I can do. But apart from that, I have always brought up my kids to love their surroundings, take care of the earth and be good to the creatures. Mother Nature's little creatures. Except wasps, because they're dicks.

[Eden Scher]

Yeah. I'm also not a fan of a wasp. The only animal or bug, insect, however you want to call it, that I am not a fan of.

[Brock Ciarlelli]

Yeah, we still need them, though.

[Eden Scher]

We actually, annoyingly, we do need them. We do need one. Get out of here. But unfortunately, we do.

[Brock Ciarlelli]

But, yeah, that. I mean, bees at least sacrifice themselves. Wasps are just stingy because they're dicks. But anyway, let's move on to the article.

[Eden Scher]

I just got the image of, like, a bee, like, looking at a little photo of his family as he just.

[Brock Ciarlelli]

Goes, bees and kamikaze for the queen. Just like you, buddy. Yeah.

[Eden Scher]

They're literally shanking you just for the fun of it.

[Brock Ciarlelli]

Yeah.

[Eden Scher]

Nature's bastards.

[Brock Ciarlelli]

So when conservationist Joe Harkness received a message from a friend about macarating moth abdomens.

[Eden Scher]

Oh, yeah, we're going. We're going down.

[Brock Ciarlelli]

Yeah. Deep into the tizzle to check their genitalia to identify the species. Yeah. It sparked the idea for a new book about wildlife obsessions. But over time, this developed into a completely different book. A clarion call to embrace neurodiversity in the fight against the extinction crisis. And it's not. Our extinction is the extinction of all the animals that we destroy just by being alive, just by being human. So his. His idea is that neurodiversity, meaning all brain types, not neurodivergent people alone, neurodivergent people, neurotypical people, all people. The diversity within the human species is vital to the survival of our species and the survival of other species that we have power over. We have power over all species, unfortunately. So it says, across the article says, across Britain, 15% of people are thought to be neurodivergent. By the way, I think it's a lot more than that. But this is what the article says.

[Eden Scher]

A little bit higher.

[Brock Ciarlelli]

Yeah. In the process of writing Neurodivergent by Nature, which is the book, Harkness discovered that an estimated 30% of conservation employees were neurodivergent. And so he says, why? And, I mean, we know why.

[Eden Scher]

We know why.

[Brock Ciarlelli]

Yeah, we know why. But let's. Let's see what he says. People like myself, especially those who are undiagnosed with, probably found nature was their balm from a mental health perspective. Yeah. Says Harkness, when we meet beneath an awesomely peaceful ancient oak close to his home in rural Norfolk. This is the article. The other thing is we're different from what we'd define as neurotypical people. Therefore we like more odd things, special interest. Nature lends itself to people who are different. Well, there's more to the article but essentially that's what we wanted to focus on was that idea that at least 30% I think is more of conservation employees are neurodivergent. And it doesn't really surprise me and I think the reason being is one, because of the obsessions, the hyper focus, I don't like the word obsessions but it's a word that people use. But it's that hyper focus, it's that, that need of completion. It's like, well I've started this and I care enough about it, but my need for completion, my need for, for satisfaction in, in reaching my version of a hundred percent is going to be hugely, hugely more detailed than a neurotypical. I remember I've, I've called it in the past called tree learning over forest learning. So you could just look at a big group of trees and go well that's a forest. That's what a neurotypical does. It saves time. They can crack on with their day.

[Eden Scher]

They call top down processing.

[Brock Ciarlelli]

Yeah, but a neurodivergent person needs to count all the trees, log them, you know, look, look at the different types of trees, look at the different types of seasons or the animal. They need to know everything about that group of trees before they will call it a forest. And then they will know everything about that forest. It will just take a lot longer. And that's generally speaking how our brains work. This is why we are slow to do everything because we are more detailed. So we will make sure that we do most things, especially things we care about, we will do them properly in our mind. We don't really half ass it if we care about it, when we don't.

[Eden Scher]

Is so ingrained in time when we don't care.

[Brock Ciarlelli]

That's the problem.

[Eden Scher]

And what you're sort of explaining as well, when I think about like conservationism with neurodivergent people, bottom up processing is how so many of us view the world. You know, like you were saying, this sort of tree learning, forest learning, but also as well as a people with data gatherers, we want to spend time in our special interests, gathering information about it, learning more understanding it, but also as well, so many of us I know especially I do have very strong justice sensitivity and we want to protect things and look after things and preserve things that we care about. So all of these things coming together with, you know, this alternative neurotype makes total sense to me that our people are going to be heavily ingrained in conservationism.

[Brock Ciarlelli]

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So, Sophie, how many years? Too many years. 16 years. 16 years ago, Sophie and I visited the Brighton Sea Life center, the aquarium in Brian. And turtles had always been one of my absolute favorite animals and definitely my favorite sea creature. And I couldn't wait to show my. My teeny, tiny daughter the turtles for the first time, because they've got two now, three giant sea turtles down there.

[Eden Scher]

Technically, there aren't four turtles, but.

[Brock Ciarlelli]

Yeah, there's only three.

[Eden Scher]

We'll let it slide.

[Brock Ciarlelli]

We'll let it slide. Yeah, just chuck another one in there. I need the numbers. So I took this little, teeny, tiny Sophie, carried her in my arms, and I took her around, and she was fascinated by all the fish. And I did that very autistic thing where I was, like, reading everything to her and teaching her everything. And there was a fun game that they'd given the kids to do, which was like, you had to find a Lego piece, a little Lego person, and if you found the LEGO person in one of the tanks, you win a prize. So because of our very, very autistic brains, we were looking for a little, teeny, tiny, little LEGO man, right? So we looked everywhere. And because we were looking in such detail, we were looking for this thing. We were like, we're gonna find it. We're gonna find it. Because of that, we. We spent so long in there, and everything just was more detailed for Sophie because she had that focus of trying to find this. This little. This little dude went around the whole place. Right? Loved every minute of it. Yeah. And we couldn't find it, could we?

[Sophie James]

We did find it in there.

[Brock Ciarlelli]

Well, I. I know that, but why could we not find it?

[Sophie James]

It's because it was massive.

[Brock Ciarlelli]

Because it was huge.

[Sophie James]

Really, really big LEGO man that we just, like, we thought we were looking for a tiny one.

[Brock Ciarlelli]

We walked past it. We walked past this giant LEGO man in this tank and didn't see it.

[Eden Scher]

But you were like, that's not a Lego man. Lego Man's tiny.

[Brock Ciarlelli]

If I'd even seen it. Like, it didn't even register in our brains because we were so hyper focused on finding a small LEGO man that it didn't even register that. That it was even a thing. It's not like we saw it and dismissed it. I don't even remember seeing It. And the only reason we found it because I was like. I went to the person who worked there and I was like, we have looked everywhere. And they were like, oh, it's that massive one over there. I'm like, which one? I was a bit, like, annoyed. I was like, that is not what piece of paper said. It says LEGO Man. It did not say giant LEGO Man.

[Eden Scher]

And it was like, yeah, specific on your Easter eggs.

[Brock Ciarlelli]

Yeah, exactly, exactly. So we. We went and we picked up the prize and it was a tiny plastic shark. And Sophie's face was like, oh.

[Sophie James]

And I was not a shark girl. No, there are shark people, but I was not one.

[Eden Scher]

Yeah.

[Brock Ciarlelli]

And my daughter looked at me with her huge, huge eyes and I melted, as I always do, and I bought her a cuddly turtle with huge, huge eyes. Just like Sophie. Very, very cute turtle, cuddly toy. Which has become your. Your main. Your main cuddly toy ever, isn't it?

[Sophie James]

Yeah, I sleep every night with that. Cuddly toys.

[Brock Ciarlelli]

What's his name?

[Sophie James]

His name? Totally. Very original. Yeah, very original name.

[Eden Scher]

Gotta have a Y on, otherwise. Is it a teddy? I've got a little. Got a little crocodile just above my head now. And he's called Snappy.

[Brock Ciarlelli]

Yeah.

[Eden Scher]

Crocky. Alligatory. It's not even alligator.

[Brock Ciarlelli]

Well, I've got a deer and his name's Bucky. So.

[Eden Scher]

Yeah, what's the. Why needs a Y? Yeah, yeah, no, that's. Yeah, that sounds about right.

[Brock Ciarlelli]

So from that day on, Sophie was then obsessed. Obsessed with turtles.

[Sophie James]

The thing is, I wouldn't say it was like what you would stereotypically think an autistic person is obsessed with a subject. Like, it's not like my partner Christopher, who, like, he will find out every, like, factual piece of information about a seagull. And now he knows everything about seagulls. And he can, like, tell you the species and tell you, you know, that, oh, look, they're mating and they're doing this certain behavior for it. And he knows everything like that. It was more exactly like you said earlier about this passion for justice that, you know, I thought these animals were so beautiful and so graceful and amazing that the thought of them ever being harmed or them not being able to nest because of what we're doing to, you know, beaches and were making it all urbanized and everything. I thought that was, you know, awful. And I really, really wanted to be part of fixing that problem and looking after them. So it definitely came from a passion and an autistic obsession in looking after them and protecting Them the justice part for me, you know, that's definitely how I work. I'm not a want to learn every single fact. I'm a this is something wrong. I would do everything in my power from now to learn everything I need to so one day I can be part of fixing this sort of thing.

[Eden Scher]

That makes a lot of sense really, because I have known people like that in different. In different aspects and fields. It's like they're either obsessed with the thing or they're obsessed with protecting the thing.

[Sophie James]

Yeah.

[Eden Scher]

And it's almost a very like sort of cultural community synergy because you're protecting it for somebody who is detail orientated and wants to know everything about turtles. How could you have a special interest with turtles if there aren't any?

[Sophie James]

Exactly. Having all kind of aspects to like a team trying to protect something or look after something is really, really important. I feel like that's what a lot of people academically like, don't understand or miss out on is sometimes you're someone like me. I'm not going to always know everything and understand everything and my processing and how my brain works. But I have the passion and I have the enthusiasm and I have the will to make something happen. And you need people like that. And we all need to kind of come together to be able to fix problems, things like that. But that sort of state comes from being very neurodivergent in my mind. Like, I want to fix this. I want to fix this. I will spend all of my years in an education system that I do not like. It does not work for me because I'm going to do that. And it's. It's very like black and white in my head. It's just like, I have to go and do it.

[Brock Ciarlelli]

She took that hyper focus and, and ever since she was little, she was like, I'm gonna save turtles. I'm gonna save turtles. I'm working to rescue turtles. And obviously we were like, that's amazing. And that's amazing. But you know, you're like five, six years old and. Sure, whatever. And then I love that she was like that. And I was like, that's amazing. That's so cool. So I nurtured that and nurtured that. And when she went and did GCSEs and then her A levels and everything was focused on, you're gonna do some sort of biology, whether it's evolutionary or whether it's marine biology or whether it's zoology, it was always focused on, on science with animals. And she just did all the work like we did, we supported her as best we could. But my God, that focus that, that drive that got her through all your, your difficulties through school, didn't it?

[Sophie James]

Because all I could picture in my head is when I'm older, I want to end up on a beach doing work for turtles. I didn't really know what that meant or what it meant to get there. Found out what you have to do to get there. It's quite hard and difficult. You have to take a lot of biology. I took chemistry, a level. I then, you know, did my marine biology degree. And every step to get that, I was like, oh, oh, I have to.

[Eden Scher]

Learn that there's a lot more to just.

[Sophie James]

I just really, really want to work with dirt one day. So I was like, well, I guess that's what I'm just gonna have to do because, you know, my head is, it knows where I want to be and I will go and do it.

[Eden Scher]

So I think, I think that's really interesting because I have that sort of thinking with and then. It's funny, isn't it, how we're all so similar, but so different. I have always been obsessed with storytelling. Whether it's us just having a conversation about conservation is conservation. Put your teeth in, you know, or like theater or TV or film or whatever. I have just loved the medium of telling a story over a microphone and everything else felt like such a downgrade, you know, if I wasn't doing this, I can't see myself doing anything else. Yeah, like, and the idea of doing something else isn't that. It's like, oh, it's disappointing, it's uncomfortable, is alien. It's. It's poisonous. Doing anything other than what I think I, my brain and my soul, my special interests are telling me to do is alien. And it's hard to live with. So I think, you know, conservationism is so important, especially with the way that the world's going. But I can't imagine any better people to work in it than justice. Sensitive, hyper focused, neurodivergent, special interest people because they know more than anybody else, they feel more than anybody else and anything else. They can't imagine themselves doing anything else. So let. Just let them.

[Sophie James]

Yeah, because it's quite interesting. There's, there's a million things I could think of doing in my life because I love them, I'm interested in them. I have lots of many different hobbies and passions and stuff that I can be good at. And it's weird because I don't think science has Ever been what I'm naturally good at. But I think in my head, like you said, you know, conservation is so, so important that I'm like, well, what? I need to go and do this. I can't picture myself doing anything else because I think or I feel like I need to go and do this because my, my, my, my special interest, my obsession, my passion to go and fix what is being constantly broken all the time and being constant and being kind of ripped apart and taken advantage of. I want to go and fix that. And I will do everything in my power to learn and be educated to be able to go and do that.

[Eden Scher]

I think so many of us as a people as well, and I've heard this repeated, well, if you're not going to do it, it's going to have to be me. I think so many of us feel that internal drive. I do. You know, when we put, I put this podcast together and approached Jordan, I was like, no one's making the show that I want to listen to. It's going to have to be me. And I think so many of us are followed, you know, driven by that internal sort of monologue. I mean, there's a difference between thinking about wanting to do something and going to bed. And it's the only thing that you can sort of close your eyes to. And, you know, I think, I think it's so important, so, so important to have people with that mindset and that sort of heart in these fields. Because the reason as to why this is needed is because people have done it for ego rather than the cause. You know, urbanization, like late stage capitalism and everything, it's all ego driven. So what you're doing is with, with a, you know, it's a selfless purpose, really, isn't it?

[Brock Ciarlelli]

Yeah, it's, it's, it's why it's so important to have neurodivergence within the diversity of our species is simply because that, that's, that's how most things get done. So if we all just like sat around and went, oh, yeah, I mean, we've always done it like that and, you know, everything's fine and stuck to.

[Eden Scher]

Everything, challenged the norm.

[Brock Ciarlelli]

Yeah. You know, I mean, it is what it is, that sort of attitude. And I'm not, I'm not, I'm not having a, you know, neurodivergent versus neurotypical thing. Neurotypicals and neurodivergent people will work together. We've always tried to, at the least, work together because it's when we work Together as a species, different variants of this homo species. That's when things get done. That's when good things get done. That's when bad things get done. You know, neurodivergent people are responsible for a lot of bad things happening science wise and. But neurodivergent people are responsible for amazing discoveries and amazing things. And it is that hyper focus, it is that sense of justice that. That drives us to try and make things better. And ironically, I think a lot of the bad things that have happened with neurodivergent people was due to being manipulated, due to being coerced. Take Oppenheimer just for one example.

[Eden Scher]

You read my mind.

[Brock Ciarlelli]

He was coerced. He was tricked into believing that what he was doing was to. Was saving lives. And it was, it was after that he realized what he'd done had cost lives. He. He was inconsolable. Like it ruined his life because of what he realized that he'd done. So it's, it's people just taking advantage of us as well. And I think that it's, it's. I've been, I've been so fortunate, so fortunate to see Sophie's journey, to watch it as, not only as a parent, but as. As a friend. You know, my daughter is my friend. She's my little buddy, you know, mini me. And to watch her flourish and watch her get through some of the really, really difficult stuff that she's gone through, stuff that to this day. And I think for all time, I'm. I'm gonna feel hard on myself that I couldn't do more to help her because she was so far away. But just knowing that drive, that, that thing of, oh, I'm gonna get on that beach with those turtles managed to help Sophie get through so many difficult things. And I took a picture after Covid of the abandoned Western pier in Brighton. And it was, it was overexposed when I took it, so it was, it was too bright. But what I did with that particular picture, that when I overexposed it, rather than dismiss it, I darkened the area of the pier and I brightened everything around it. So it's a white background completely blown out, and it's just the pier in a black center. So it's almost like black and white, even though it was color at the time. And that picture I called hyperfocus because I do not like Brighton. It is very, very busy. It's a very busy place. And after Covid and everyone was allowed back, it was extra busy. Plus, I wasn't used to massive crowds Because I'd been away from them for so long. And I took my camera to Brighton, and where we parked was at the top of the marina, and it was quite a walk down to the western pier, past the current pier, and had to walk all the way to the Western Pit. And it was. It was really crowded, really busy. But I kept looking at that pier, and I had my camera, I have my tripod, and I just walked and I just. I got through all that crowd. Now, that. That is a minuscule thing compared to what Sophie's gone through. But it's the same ability that we have of I can see it, and no matter what obstacle is in my way, I will find a way to get to that destination. Whether it's a destination of a dream you have, a goal you have, or something you can physically see, I will do everything I can to reach that goal. That's our ability. That's our amazing power that we have. It's just imagine if we were. Imagine if every neurodivergent person had supportive people like Sylvia and I supported Sophie, and Sophie, in many times, has supported me, and Sylvia has supported me. Imagine if we all supported each other instead of belittling and ostracizing. Just imagine what we could achieve.

[Sophie James]

I. I think sometimes, like, I almost felt like I was coming across as quite delusional at uni because I did think, like, how am I here? Like, how have I got here? Because sometimes when I was around the people in my course, I didn't really get on with the people. My course was I didn't make any friends, and I just felt so different to everyone in terms of, like, why I was there. And I just. I felt like a lot of the other people were, like, they had quite academic families, and they were just kind of doing, you know, like, passing it through the family and. And, like, knowing that neither of my parents went to university and I'm just, like, here because I really like turtles was kind of like, ooh, should I be here? I don't know. And it was really, really hard. And my campus was for bioscience students at my university. And, like, a lot of those students were definitely neurodivergent. And I just think it would have been so great if, in these places and even in the industries, if they could recognize how many neurodivergent people they had and how many of those neurodivergent people really, really have special interests, how you could use it in these industries. With all these problems we're having, with all the challenges we're facing. And it's the perfect example. Like during my dissertation, everyone just gets assigned a random dissertation instead of choosing your own dissertation. Not in terms of, but being given the choice and then being like, right, I'm really passionate about this. I know I could work really well in this. And I remember being given my dissertation, I had to work in a group, which I don't like working in groups. And I had to work on something I just wasn't interested in at all. And I remember going to one of the people organizing it all and I just said, look, you know, I'm autistic. I have a special interest in cturtles specifically. I know I could work so much better and produce some actually really good insightful work if you gave me a project on ct, which I know some other people were giving, giving data and a project on. And I was like, this was meant for me. We ended up having like basically an argument about it and she was like, oh well, you can't just choose what you want to do and blah blah, blah. And I'm just thinking like these. If, if we understood neurodivergence more and how useful these brains are. Especially someone like Christopher, who did a business and environment degree and ended up writing his whole dissertation on seagulls because he's obsessed with seagulls and he got to choose his own dissertation. It was amazing. You could, you could, we could do amazing, incredible things. And I just think it's such a missed opportunity.

[Eden Scher]

Yeah. And you know what? I am testimony to that. I did a drama degree that was laid out exactly how you're describing it. Got a 2 one but did not enjoy it. Did a master's degree where they went go. Don't have to work with anybody, work on your own. Make what you want. I came out with a first overall high distinction, really high grades. I did my dissertation on what I wanted to do it on. I did my like 15 minute audio piece on a documentary about wrestling and then I did a 10 minute piece and they were like, you have to do a radio drama. I went oh thank God. Because I was going to make one anyway and just sort of did it like that. I did my five minute piece about tattoo artists and everything gave me artistic license. And just because you're not working in the arts doesn't mean you can't be an artist in your field. And that's what so many of us need. We need the ability to have a paintbrush, have the paints we want to paint with and leave us the hell alone to do it. And we'll make something special. Yeah, you try and fit a square peg in a round hole. It isn't going to work. You have to understand you've got a square peg and give it the opportunity to find its place because that's where the best things happen. It frustrates me, the education system, because they don't learn.

[Sophie James]

You know, hopefully we can get a point to where that understanding things more. Like, I went to my, like the support team at uni and I explained to them, please stop doing dissertations like this. It doesn't work. You could, you could be creating an amazing work. You could be getting people to do more masters and things if you, if you exactly, like you said, gave them the paintbrush and you gave them choice and you really, really worked with the neurodivergent people that you know are neurodiverse, at least work with them first. You know, we could be doing amazing things. But I even think in, like in, in group work, a lot of neurodivergent people don't get taken seriously. And again, like, if just individual people could see, like, okay, this person's really good at doing this, maybe the other things they're not really good at doing. Let's really use, let's use everyone's best assets and create something amazing. And so I'm glad that I pushed through everything I did because I think one day I'm gonna do something good in my own way. Maybe it won't be data collection, maybe it won't be analyzing things, but maybe it'll be spreading the word. Maybe it'll be education, maybe it'll be doing something, being able to do some sort of conservation work that I am able to do that other people aren't, you know, through articulation or social media, who knows, you know, But I'm glad I went and did it and didn't let any of like the voices or the imposter syndrome get to me. And I, you know, I did push through it.

[Brock Ciarlelli]

Well, not only that, but I wanted.

[Sophie James]

To work with a turtle one day.

[Brock Ciarlelli]

But now you're going to get to, aren't you? Yeah, already. So you just got your 2:1 in marine biology and you've already got your first assignment, haven't you?

[Sophie James]

Yes, I'm going to Egypt for four months doing an internship with. In the Red Sea.

[Eden Scher]

Wow.

[Brock Ciarlelli]

Gonna be amazing. And Sylvia and I are going to go out there for a week and see her in action and just being able to experience that with her and see my amazing, amazing daughter just live out her Dream already with that hyper focus. It's just. It's incredible. You're incredible, Sophie. You are incredible. And you are a shining beacon to all the neurodivergent people out there who think that they're not good enough. Because let me tell you now, folks, you are all good enough. You just need to believe in yourself. And I know that sounds cheesy, but it is true. You have to not listen to, to that imposter syndrome. You have to not listen to the other people who are trying to bring you down because that's envy, that stupidity, that's ignorance. You need to listen to yourself and believe in yourself.

[Eden Scher]

Yeah, and I will. And I'll finish on this, folks. You've already done good, Sophie, by having this conversation. But somebody will listen to it and feel inspired by it. And I can talk from my own testimony. I've always wanted to do my own podcast. Desperate, Desperate. Done it for other people. Always wanted it to be me. Sort of been adjacent. And the only reason it didn't happen is because I didn't believe in myself. The worst bully I've ever had is me. And don't stop yourself from doing it if you want to do it. No matter what we've got going on, because we've all got something going on. Don't tell yourself you can't do it because you can. It's other people that will tell you and they aren't you. Stick to what you know, trust yourself, trust that you can do it and good things will happen because it's proof of it. We're living proof of it. And you look at the people that truly love what they do and it loves them back if you let it.

[Sophie James]

Yeah, beautiful play.

[Eden Scher]

Right, on that note, thank you so much for listening, everybody. It's been a wonderful conversation on conservationism and really looking forward to seeing what you get up to. Sophie, please share some photos with me because I'd love to see where you're at and we'll have you back when you are back. That would be wonderful.

[Brock Ciarlelli]

One, one last thing. Sophie actually does mentoring for teens and young adults on in the spectrum on the in the. So if anyone is interested, how can they get hold of you, Sophie, because you are now very busy and successful as a ment as well.

[Sophie James]

You can check out my Facebook page, Sophie James, and message me or you can email me, Sophie James mentoringoutlook.co.uk and just ask me if there any information.

[Brock Ciarlelli]

We fully endorse this message.

[Eden Scher]

You have been fully endorsed.

[Brock Ciarlelli]

Sophie is incredible. I tried mentoring once I sucked at it. I was not good. I'm good at talking to people. I'm not good at listening. But Sophie is incredible. She has so many clients. They keep coming back and she is changing lives. And just all of this on top of saving turtles. Oh, my God. That's my daughter. I'm in awe. I'm in awe.

[Eden Scher]

You're a rock star.

[Brock Ciarlelli]

You're absolutely rock star. Rock star. Get in there. Anyway, bye, everyone.

[Eden Scher]

Bye, everyone.

[Brock Ciarlelli]

Nightly. Bye.

[Eden Scher]

Thanks for tuning in to the neurodivergent Experience. We hope today's episode sparks something for you. Whether it's a new idea, a bit of validation, or just a moment of connection. Remember, new episodes are every week, so be sure to join us for the next one for more conversations, conversations and insights into the neurodivergent Experience. If you've enjoyed this podcast, help us grow. You can do that by rating and reviewing this show. Your support makes a huge difference in helping us reach more people who could benefit from these conversations. You can connect with us on social media, find us on Instagram, Facebook, tick tock. Just search for the neurodivergent Experience. Thank you again for listening and until next time, take care of yourself. You're not alone in this journey.

[Brock Ciarlelli]

From the Cascades to PDX to your kitchen. We recycle like we live here. That's why governments, brands and recycling companies are all joining together to bring changes to make recycling better. As in trusting that your recyclables end up in the right places to be made into new things and having brands help fund the cost of recycling. You can find the Latest [e-mail] Oregon. From Mount Hood to the bin under your desk, together we can do this.

[Eden Scher]

ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.

[Sophie James]

I'm Eden Share.

[Brock Ciarlelli]

And I'm Brock Ciarlelli.

[Sophie James]

We play best friends on the Middle.

[Brock Ciarlelli]

And became best friends in real life.

[Sophie James]

We're here to rewatch the Middle with all of you.

[Brock Ciarlelli]

Each week we'll recap an episode with behind the scenes stories, guest interviews and what we think now, many years later, there's a lot to dive into. So let's get to middling.

[Eden Scher]

ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.