← The Neurodivergent Experience
The Neurodivergent Experience
Hot Topic: Too Old to Start? How Neurodivergent People Are Locked Out of Apprenticeships
00:26:46
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- [00:00]
Adam Grant
What's up? Adam Grant from Work Life. A TED podcast here. And I want to tell you about something exciting. You're watching every dollar and Walmart Business helps you stretch each one. From office supplies to snacks and cleaning gear. You'll get everyday low prices plus easy bulk ordering and fast delivery. And with tools like spend tracking and multi user accounts, staying organized is simple. Save time, money and hassle. @business.walmart.com it's free to sign up. Tonight's meal Tilapia surprise with boiled cabbage. Begin cooking steps 1 through 50 now.
- [00:31]
Blue Apron / Edward Jones Advertiser
Are you kidd? Making dinner shouldn't feel like doing a thousand piece puzzle. With Blue Apron's new one pan assemble and bake meals. The hard part's already done. Pre chopped ingredients, zero stress. Just assemble, bake and enjoy. No complicated steps, no mountain of dishes. Try assemble and bake today. Get 20% off your first two orders with code APRON20. Terms and conditions apply. Visit blueapron.com terms for more. A rich life isn't a straight line to a destination on the horizon. Sometimes it takes an unexpected turn with de tours, new possibilities and even another passenger or three. And with 100 years of navigating ups and downs, you can count on Edward Jones to help guide you through it all. Because life is a winding path made rich by the people you walk it with. Let's find your rich together. Edward Jones. Member sipc.
- [01:28]
Host 1 (Neurodivergent Experience)
Oh, hot, hot, hot, hot, hot, hot. Hot topic. Hello and welcome to the Neuro Spicy News.
- [01:49]
Host 2 (Neurodivergent Experience)
Hot topic when you news in your feed. Yeah. Topic like it's hot. Topic like it's hot. Topic like it's hot. When the tism got an attitude. Top it like it's hot. Top it like it's hard. Top of like it's hot. All right, I did some research this time.
- [02:03]
Host 1 (Neurodivergent Experience)
Yeah, you said you sounded prepared.
- [02:07]
Host 2 (Neurodivergent Experience)
Thank you. It's a big deal for me and you and everyone listening.
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Host 1 (Neurodivergent Experience)
Yeah, well, good.
- [02:11]
Adam Grant
Good job.
- [02:12]
Host 1 (Neurodivergent Experience)
Good job. Yeah.
- [02:14]
Host 2 (Neurodivergent Experience)
Anyway, what are we talking about this week?
- [02:16]
Host 1 (Neurodivergent Experience)
Happy Boxing Day, everyone. This is the day where we box our children.
- [02:19]
Host 2 (Neurodivergent Experience)
Yes. Three rounds in the Thunderdome with the boy.
- [02:23]
Host 1 (Neurodivergent Experience)
I think about putting them in a box and then just sending them off to like, I don't know, Azerbaijan or somewhere.
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Host 2 (Neurodivergent Experience)
Madagascar.
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Host 1 (Neurodivergent Experience)
Yeah, bye.
- [02:31]
Host 2 (Neurodivergent Experience)
It's not the news. Anyway, what are we talking about today?
- [02:34]
Host 1 (Neurodivergent Experience)
Yeah, well, we. We are talking about apprenticeships for young people and how neurodivergent people are being left out because of age.
- [02:44]
Host 2 (Neurodivergent Experience)
Yes, very interesting this. So this is in. Well, I say in. It's on. You can read it at the BBC which states the government has launched an expansion of Youth apprenticeships to 50,000 places over the next three years in an effort to tackle unemployment among young people. The number of young people starting apprenticeships has fallen by almost 40% in the last decade, according to figures have shown nearly a million 16 to 24 year olds are currently not in work or learning. Says the expansion will include removing the 5% levy on apprenticeships for under 25s, which I'm honest, I don't know what that means, and offering new apprenticeships in AI, hospitality and engineering. Would you have done an apprenticeship if it had been in something that you were interested in?
- [03:33]
Host 1 (Neurodivergent Experience)
I can't speak about me, very, very different situation. But I'm, you know, I look at my kids and especially my daughter who actually sent me this article because it does involve her because she's got this degree, she's got a marine biology degree and she's kind of just an impression, an impasse of just like, where do I go with this? You know, does she want to do conservation? Does she want to be a scientist? Does she want to work with neurodivergence? Because obviously she's a neurodivergent mentor and an advocate and a beautiful writer and, you know, she's at that point in life where if I hadn't had kids or I hadn't been in the situations that I was in, I would have struggled as well because there were so many things that I would have liked to do. As it is with most people, it's not a neurodivergent thing being indecisive about your future. It's a human thing.
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Host 2 (Neurodivergent Experience)
It was crippling for me. At university, we've discussed it. On the episode that we did with Chris, I was like, what the do I do with my life now? What am I gonna do?
- [04:43]
Host 1 (Neurodivergent Experience)
So I think, I think like with, with Sophie, you know, this, this would be a great idea because it gives you that chance to find out if you really want to do something without fully committing to actually making a career out of it. It's cool, like, you know, testing the water. Also, you know, it might really help neurodivergent people who, who did find education challenging like I did and didn't reach their full potential because the educational system is garbage and doesn't look after us. So I think that the idea of an apprenticeship is, is a fantastic thing for somebody to follow their special interest, their passion, but it just comes down to how they do it and whether or not it's neuro friendly and it seems that at the moment it's not.
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Host 2 (Neurodivergent Experience)
Yes. So the article continues. It's got a quote from Rose Atkinson and her 27 year old daughter is autistic and has just graduated with a 2:1 degree in animation, which 2:1. Fabulous animation. Very, very, very difficult thing to do. Very undervalued skill. Actually. Animation, it's a very beautiful and powerful thing to be able to do if you can do it.
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Host 1 (Neurodivergent Experience)
But yeah, I mean it's one of my favorite things in the world.
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Host 2 (Neurodivergent Experience)
Absolutely. And, and I can imagine a lot of neurodivergent people fabulous in animation. But the, the quote continues. A 27 year old daughter of Rose Atkinson graduated with a 2:1 in animation, but is now too old to get onto youth apprenticeship schemes which cut off at the age of 25. And Rose says, I've asked various organizations why 25 is the magic number and nobody can give me an answer. But for someone who is on the spectrum, that doesn't help my daughter. She needs a long term internship so that her degree is not a waste. Disabled young adults have the capacity to work and desperately want to work, especially disabled graduate students, but don't stand a chance when it's taken. When it's, when it's taken them longer than others to graduate.
- [06:55]
Host 1 (Neurodivergent Experience)
Yeah. Straight away, my point to you when we read this earlier was that on one hand they're saying, well, you're disabled because you develop slower. You've got a developmental disorder. Now I will always argue that that is such a surface layer of neurodivergence that we develop slower and that that's a disability because for a lot of times it's our ability, our childlike ability. And with this young person, her degree in animation, she's probably really good at it because she has that childlike brand, she has that childlike ability. So because she develops slower, that's maybe why she's so bloody good at it.
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Host 2 (Neurodivergent Experience)
Animation takes a long time.
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Host 1 (Neurodivergent Experience)
Yeah. And, and it's, it's like it's punishing us for being disabled in the way that they tell us we are disabled. So they make the rules. You are disabled because you do things slower. And then they go, right. But when we're going to punish you for doing things slower. Make it make sense, dude.
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Host 2 (Neurodivergent Experience)
Yeah, I can't.
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Host 1 (Neurodivergent Experience)
You can't?
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Host 2 (Neurodivergent Experience)
I can't. I can't make it make sense because like there are so many degrees take a really long time. Like architecture takes like six years, seven years. And I have a friend who is an engineer and an exceptional one at that, and he had to have placements as part of his work and one of the places he has a placement he now works at. So there was a pathway. I had a pathway. I did a. A master's degree in radio journalism and sound storytelling. And one of my lecturers was very good friends with somebody that worked at a radio station. And he got me an interview. In a way, he provided me a work placement internship because I started at the bottom and I worked my way up. But he got me a foot in the door. And not a lot of people have that privilege, have that accessibility. I mean, I've spoken to my dad regularly about internships because he's asked me if before if there's anything in media internship wise. And I was like, I have no idea, dad. Because he left school at 15 and just went into work. But his internship was an apprenticeship that then gave him the ability to grow into what he does now, which is being a manager of a company. And it gave him a lot of great experience. But I know so many people from my university experience that do not work in what we studied at all. Like, there are some people that never even get a shot at it. And there are many times when I'm sat watching actors on actors interviews or directors talking about plays or films and stuff, and I sit there and I go, well, that could have been me, but only if I'd applied myself more. If only if I'd done this more. But then when I think about it, there's only so many opportunities to go around for certain people. And it frustrates me. The, the cutoff is 25, because I don't know many neurodivergent people that know what they want to do at 25. I definitely am not doing what I thought I was going to be doing at 25, at 31. And I feel like putting a cap on it is affecting, like when our frontal lobes develop and things like that. Like that. The ableism thing of going, oh, well, you need more time to process. But this is the cutoff feels very unfair because I know many people that have changed their careers in the 30s that have been exceptional at what they've.
- [10:39]
Host 1 (Neurodivergent Experience)
Done for a world that loves to infantilize us and then turns around and says, 25 is the youth cut off. So they're happy to treat me like a youth in my 40s. My dog's grumbling, he agrees, you know, and infantilize me and treat me like a child in my 40s. But they don't want to do it when it actually helps a Human. I guess it is that sense of neurodivergent justice that. That really bothers me. And it is that overabundance of empathy that apparently we don't have that makes me just. I really hope this person reaches their potential. I really hope this person. I hope things change for this person and for other people like her. I just want the good things to happen for neurodivergent people who want to do something like, oh, my God, we're constantly told that we're not good enough, or we're constantly told me, told that we're waste on government funds or we're costing the government too much. And here is an amazing human, just like many, many other neurodivergent people just like her, who is like, okay, I want to work. I want to provide. I want to, you know, live a fulfilling life, and I want to create something amazing, right? And they're like, yeah, too old. What the is that?
- [12:23]
Host 2 (Neurodivergent Experience)
It's. It's difficult, isn't it? Because I look back on, like, my university experience. I left with a master's degree at 22. That's three years. I've got three years between then and then. And I know people that were on my degree that were already in the 30s. My master's degree, I had one lady was in her 40s. And I don't think you're ever old, too old to retrain. But there are so many complaints in the public discord, especially in this country, about how many people aren't working. Oh, you know, the drain in the system or they don't put into the system. And it's like these people are just sat at home twiddling their thumbs. I haven't met any neurodivergent people that don't want to work in what they want to work in. Like, whether that's animal conservation or working in a museum or being a police officer. I know lots of people that go, I would love to be this, but I can't get in. And there's got to be some sort of change in that. They go, oh, there's not enough money going around. They're bleeding the system. But if you give them opportunities to pull themselves out, then the system isn't gonna need to support them as much because they can support themselves. And that's the sort of bit that just sort of spins me.
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Host 1 (Neurodivergent Experience)
I mean, it. What's crazy is it's so obvious to us, and we're just like two dudes who are not politicians, not rule makers, not government officials. And, you know, we're not consultants. We're just two dudes. I'm a security manager slash photographer. You're a podcaster slash actor. You know, we're just two dudes just living life and we, we can figure this out. It's, it's not hard to figure out. Yeah, because in order to figure this out, you need, you need. Well, you need two things. You need brains and you need compassion. And the government seems to be lacking both. But let's talk about what they, or at least somebody is trying to do after the break.
- [14:32]
Adam Grant
What's up? Adam Grant from Work Life, a TED podcast here and I want to tell you about something exciting. You're watching every dollar and Walmart Business helps you stretch each one. From office supplies to snacks and cleaning gear, you'll get everyday low prices plus easy bulk ordering and fast delivery. And with tools like spend tracking and multi user accounts, staying organized is simple. Save time, money and hassle. @business.walmart.com it's free to sign up.
- [15:00]
Host 2 (Neurodivergent Experience)
This is a neurodivergent experience Public Announcement if you live in England and you or a loved one is waiting for an autism or ADHD assessment, you don't have to wait years. RTN Diagnostics is now part of the NHS Right to Choose scheme which means if your local wait for a consultant led autism or ADHD assessment is more than 18 weeks, you can choose RTN instead and it won't cost you a penny. Jordan chose RTN for his own family because their care and attention to detail were second to none. They didn't just diagnose autism and adhd, they looked at the full picture, including pda, ocd, anxiety and more. The team is friendly, neuroaffirming and comprises many neurodivergent individuals so they truly understand getting started is simple. Download the GP referral letter and questionnaire from the link in our show notes, take those to your GP and ask for a referral to RTN Diagnostics. If approved, RTN will be in touch within eight weeks to begin your assessment. Remember, this only applies in England and some exclusions do apply. RTN is not currently able to accept referrals for child ADHD assessments, so check the details before you start RTN diagnostics, helping you get the answers you deserve without the weight. Welcome back to this week's Hot Topic. We have been discussing a article that was on the BBC stating 50,000 new apprenticeships promised in the youth employment push. However, they've said that the cutoff for youth apprenticeship schemes is 25 and so many of us are Late bloomers and late developers. And one person has stated their 27 year old daughter can't get any help, can't get into any work. And speaking to BBC Radio 4's Today program was Skills Minister Baroness Jackie Smith. And they've said they want to focus on reforming the apprenticeship system. Now obviously, as we've discussed it just before the break, so much needs to be done with these systems to give people help. So I'm very intrigued to see what they have to say. Which is the real priority for us with apprenticeships is to put right what we've seen over the last 10 years, which is a reduction of 40% in young people starting apprenticeships, apprenticeships which can really set you on the route to a high skilled job, sorts of earnings and the sorts of jobs that young people want. So we are making a determined shift of apprenticeship training back towards young people. Again, we're fully funding apprenticeship training for young people in small and medium sized businesses, unlike previously. And we are reforming the rest of the apprenticeship system that we can offer short courses for adults on complaints from larger companies that changes to the levy will make it less efficient. She said we're open to the concerns that employers have and how we actually deliver it.
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Host 1 (Neurodivergent Experience)
I do wonder what those concerns are but I on, on. I mean if the cutoff is, if they're going to do this and then the cutoff's at 25, that, that's ableist as hell. And that needs to change immed. That's why I would change. But they should have an apprenticeship scheme that is specifically for people with neurodivergent related conditions. For all just disabled people. There should be a separate thing and I don't like being separated, but that is sometimes you need to be separated for accommodation. You know, sometimes I need to go upstairs and sometimes I need to go away. Yeah, exactly. Equity for, for inclusion is to, to create something different in the same way as you get men and women's football because if women played men's football, that's not fair. So you, you have, you want to make women's football so you can have a fair separate thing. And that's what they need to do with disabled people, you know, and because otherwise we're constantly competing against neurotypicals and then being compared to neurotypicals and then just coming up short because their, their understanding of how we do things isn't good. It's bloody crap. And this is exactly what happened to this poor girl, is it? Because she's 27 and they were like, no, it's 27. So maybe do a completely separate one and say, oh, the cutoff is there isn't one. I mean, or 30 or something like that. Just be more inclusive, I guess, but separate it if that's what they have to do.
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Host 2 (Neurodivergent Experience)
Well, they're discussing this as like a youth scheme. If a huge percentage of young people are out of work, there needs to be an incentive to get them into work. And I understand that like my, I, I could have easily have gone down the route that my dad works in, which is construction. I could have got an apprenticeship and could have been making two, three times what I'm making now. I wouldn't have been happy and it wouldn't have suited me as a person. And my dad openly said to me, I don't think you should do it. And it's why I went down the route that I went down. And half of the time I don't think my dad wants to do it, let alone, you know, asking me to do it. And I think about this, this woman who was Quoted's daughter who's working in animation. There are so many other economical outputs that this country does other than just labor, hospitality. You know, Britain as a country is known for our storytelling, our filmmaking, our media, you know, our theater, our comedians. There's so, there's so, so much that it brings to the economy that just sort of is an afterthought because people see it as like wishy washy fluffy. And so many of the people that have got in 50, 60 grands worth of debt to get a university education have been told, you know, generationally, systematically, if you study, if you work hard in a thing that you want to do, you will just get to go and do it. And that is the biggest I've ever heard in my life.
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Host 1 (Neurodivergent Experience)
Fantasy.
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Host 2 (Neurodivergent Experience)
It's a joke. And animation, you know what I do, podcasting, audio is, is a medium that is, is growing into. Big, is a big, big industry, it's a big business. But the majority of people that work in it over the age of 40, there's not a super lot of young blood coming in because the majority of them go, I can't do work placements where I don't get paid. I can't do this sort of stuff. That's just free work. Like the amount of times that people just said to me, just volunteer at a radio station. Like, I can't volunteer at a radio station if I'm having to work in a bar because I've got to pay rent, I'm capped out because I don't have a free hit, which is where the apprenticeship thing comes in. As you know, you're working in something not only with the prospect of having a job in it, but you're already getting paid. It's the, well, I would love to work in animation, but I can't work for free for a year to prove I can do animation because I've got to put food on the table and then I am using the support system, which then I am a drain on society, apparently. Because why not just get a normal job that pays money? Why do you have to do that specific thing that you're trained for and brilliant at if you have to then claim disability because you have to work for free to get into the industry? It doesn't make sense. It's capping people out because the money's all being held at the top and not a lot of people are getting the entry level. And it's going to affect these industries long term because it's. You're going to get people that like what I've done, like what Caris did. Who works in hospitality the majority of their 20s, not through choice. Caris wanted to be a makeup artist, I wanted to be an actor and a podcast producer. It only happened for each of us as we hit 30 because we were trying to make it work alongside also trying to make money and eat and build a life. You can't do both. You just can't do both.
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Host 1 (Neurodivergent Experience)
No, I mean, I'm. I mean, you know, insecurity. I'm definitely not doing what I wanted to do. I openly said that many times and I, I was hugely let down when I was younger for. For many, many reasons, education just being one of them. But, you know, as, as a parent, you. You want better for your kids. And Mike is. Both went and did really good degrees. Economics, marine biology. They both got two ones. They both. Both neurodivergent. They both really, really found it challenging and both did it. And I don't think either of them are gonna be using those degrees for. For those exact specific jobs. But what those degrees will be used for is proof that they are capable of being high learners. You know that. You know that they're willing to work hard and put the energy into learning. And I think that's what employers are looking for is somebody that's willing to do the job and to be a good learner and to train and stuff like that. So they're kind of using their degrees as clout more than actually what they've got a degree in. But it, this is the other thing. It's like Sophie could go and do a Masters and then she could then maybe retrain, do something else. And before she's figured out what she wants to do with her entire life, she might get to 27 and still be struggling and, and then go, oh, there's this amazing youth scheme. As far as I'm concerned, 28, 27 is still very young. Especially now when, when people are working.
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Host 2 (Neurodivergent Experience)
Mate, I'm 31 and it feels young. Yes. You know what I mean? Like, apparently I should have it. I should be moving to, like, America to play football now in my career. Like, I'm on the tail end of, you know, I'm going to Saudis for my last payday. At 31, I don't even feel like I've started sometimes.
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Host 1 (Neurodivergent Experience)
27 still, to me, that's, that is a youth. That, that's someone in their youth. I mean, I Wish I was 27 again. Jesus, I'll be reliving my youth. If. So, I, I think it's like, it's, it's like everything when it comes to neurodivergent people is that comparison of just like, oh, we're going to treat you like we're different, like you're different, but only when it suits us.
- [26:17]
Host 2 (Neurodivergent Experience)
Oh, Merry Christmas, everyone.
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Host 1 (Neurodivergent Experience)
We are here as the conduit. We are not the solution.
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Host 2 (Neurodivergent Experience)
Now we can discuss it. We'll figure it out. But again, you and I have sat here for what, 25, 30 minutes and had a little discussion about this. We didn't need to spend million pounds of taxpayers money on a research thing to figure that out. We didn't have to go and knock on people's doors to find it out. We know from lived experience, from knowing your kids. And I am now 31 years old and it's only the past 18 months that I have worked in podcasting full time. Every other time I've worked in broadcasting, I've had multiple jobs to make ends meet because I've had one foot in the door, but not enough to financially live with a comfortable life. And even now, I wouldn't say I've got like a super comfortable life, but it's a lot better than it was a year before. And, you know, I just think we need to give young people, and especially young neurodivergent people the absolute best opportunity to fulfill their potential. Because you look at what we as a people have achieved, potential is limitless if given the opportunity. I agree. Merry Christmas, everybody. This has been your hot topic. We will be back in the new year. We're not sure if we're going to have a little bit of time off. We may do, we may not do. Who knows? We'll find out later. Bye everybody. Nightly.
- [27:45]
Host 1 (Neurodivergent Experience)
Bye.
- [27:49]
Host 2 (Neurodivergent Experience)
Thanks for tuning in to the neurodivergent Experience. We hope today's episode sparks something for you, whether it's a new idea, a bit of validation, or just a moment of connection. Remember, new episodes are every week, so be sure to join us for the next one for more conversations and insights into the neurodivergent Experience. If you've enjoyed this podcast, help us grow. You can do that that by rating and reviewing this show, your support makes a huge difference in helping us reach more people who could benefit from these conversations. You can connect with us on social media, find us on Instagram, Facebook, Tik Tok. Just search for the neurodivergent Experience. Thank you again for listening and until next time, take care of yourself. You're not alone in this journey.
- [28:47]
Blue Apron / Edward Jones Advertiser
A rich life isn't a straight line to a destination on the horizon. Sometimes it takes an unexpected turn, with detours, new possibilities, and even another passenger or three. And with 100 years of navigating ups and downs, you can count on Edward Jones to help guide you through it all. Because life is a winding path made rich by the people you walk it with. Let's find your rich together. Edward Jones Member, SIPC.
- [29:19]
Host 2 (Neurodivergent Experience)
ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.
- [29:27]
Chris Winterbauer
In 1995, the world's most successful actor strapped himself to the mast of a catamaran in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. A helicopter nearly decapitated him and he almost drowned. He did it for his art. He did it for what he loved. He did it for Waterworld. My name is Chris Winterbauer, and I believe that every movie is a miracle, even the bad ones. Join me every other week on what Went Wrong, a podcast dedicated to finding the chaos and humanity in Hollywood's biggest flops and most shocking successes.
- [29:58]
Host 2 (Neurodivergent Experience)
ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast. Com.