Jordan (2:22)

Yeah, don't burn yourself.

Neurodivergent Advocate (2:23)

But let's be honest, this, this has been a hot topic, especially for me for, for quite some time. And I even brought it up with Steve Silberman, the late and great Steve Silverman, when we had the privile interviewing him about the idea of a spectrum. And it's an independent article, why autism may not be on a spectrum after all.

Jordan (2:49)

Oh, yeah.

Neurodivergent Advocate (2:50)

So it goes on saying the idea of a single autism spectrum stretching from mild to severe may be misleading. And I'm like, this was the 7th of October, so 2025. I'm pretty sure we've been talking about this for a while now. They're slow, these neurotypicals. They're a bit slow. They're catching up. So the author, Amy Grant, claims to be an expert, which is always fun.

Jordan (3:18)

So a little, little flag goes up there and they go, I'm an expert on the tism.

Neurodivergent Advocate (3:22)

And I go, oh, you know, an exorcism.

Jordan (3:26)

An expertism.

Neurodivergent Advocate (3:27)

An expertism, yeah. So good for you. I guess that's why I don't say expert, because I don't think you can be an expert on autism because it's so different. For fun. I'm an expert on my self and, and my tism and that's about it. But anyway, that being beside the point, we've always got to start with a moan.

Jordan (3:48)

Yeah, just got a good little sidetrack there. We'll get back. Here we go. Come on then.

Neurodivergent Advocate (3:52)

But, yeah, so I've always said for the last four or five years, as soon as I realized that there's no high, low, it's not a linear spectrum of basically life destroyed to mildly inconvenienced. It's, it's all encompassing. It's, it's, you can be anywhere within, it is in the spectrum. So think of it as a balloon and you're a molecule inside the balloon. You're in the spectrum, you're not on it. You know, it's not a road, it's not a.

Jordan (4:21)

Because where is the end?

Neurodivergent Advocate (4:22)

Where is to light exactly? Well, I mean, this is what I've always struggled with, the idea of high functioning, low functioning, because it basically just puts a lid on everyone's potential or absolutely says, well, if you're high functioning, that means you function better than everyone, so you don't need help. And if you're low functioning, then you're screwed. And basically you're just going to be sitting in the corner dribbling somewhere for the rest of your life. And it's, it's, it's not right. Like, things change, worlds change. We've talked about this many, many times, but it's nice to know that the Independent are finally caught up.

Jordan (5:02)

So do you want to, you want.

Neurodivergent Advocate (5:03)

To read a bit of the article, Scotty?

Jordan (5:05)

Yeah, Here we go. So this was posted as of recording technically yesterday, but the pie's Been on the shelf. So a couple of weeks ago for you lovely people listening. But it states the phrase autism spectrum, or on the spectrum, has become part of everyday language, often used as different ways of referring to somebody who is neurodivergent. The term was coined in the 1980s by psychiatrist Dr. Lorna Wing, whose work transformed how autism was stood and understood in the UK at the time. Her autism spectrum concept was groundbreaking. Instead of seeing autism as a rare, narrowly defined condition, she recognized a wide range of traits and experiences. But the idea of a single spectrum, which stretches from mild to severe, may be misleading. And some. What did we say? The text. Birds, Tism, spurts, exorcisms, they say. Autism experts, including me. That's not me, that's her. Argue the term has outlived its usefulness.

Neurodivergent Advocate (6:05)

Well, at least the experts agree. So, yeah, it's. It is interesting because like I said, when talking to Steve Silverman, he. He blessed me and. And my use of. Of the term in the spectrum simply because he had actually known Lorna Wing or Nose. I don't know. She might. She's probably not dead.

Jordan (6:35)

Maybe. I think she might be, actually.

Neurodivergent Advocate (6:37)

We don't know as of this moment.

Jordan (6:41)

We're not experts on them, unfortunately.

Neurodivergent Advocate (6:43)

Yeah. I don't know why I'm laughing. I always do that in an awkward situation.

Jordan (6:47)

Oh, yeah. It's like, oh, you died.

Neurodivergent Advocate (6:49)

My bad.

Jordan (6:50)

Yes. Yes.

Neurodivergent Advocate (6:52)

Yeah. Maybe that's part of being socially awkward. Oh, yeah. Anyway, the autistic experience.

Jordan (7:00)

Yes.

Neurodivergent Advocate (7:01)

Yeah. So Lorna Wing never meant it. This is what Steve said. Lorna Wing never meant it to be linear. It was always supposed to be all encompassing. It's only the medical model, the doctors, the people that wanted to be like, okay, this one's worse than this one because they continuously use autism in the negative, that it's terrible, it's bad. So it's only mildly bad or it's severely bad. And if you continue doing this in 2025, if you're still doing this, you're only going to make people, especially young people who have been diagnosed autistic. You're only going to be telling them there's something wrong with them, which we know is not factually true. It's not factually true. And so you just. You're just going to make them feel crap. And that's the one thing I noticed when I met young autistic children in schools and doing my photography trips was they hated autism. I hated autism in. In 2018.

Jordan (8:06)

Yeah, me too, dude. That's why we did this podcast Because I didn't like myself.

Neurodivergent Advocate (8:10)

Yeah. In 2018 I hated my auto, my autism until I realized that it was actually flipping awesome when it comes to hyper focus and stuff.

Jordan (8:19)

Oh yeah.

Neurodivergent Advocate (8:20)

So yeah, let's, let's listen to more about how the experts agree with everything I've ever said.

Jordan (8:27)

Yes, of course.

Neurodivergent Advocate (8:28)

It's always nice to get, to get the experts on my side.

Jordan (8:33)

Yes, of course. Well, the article continues. When most people hear the word spectrum, they may picture a straight line. Mostly at my point I'm adding here is that they probably put it in a textbook and went oh, straight line. Anyway, that works. But like colors arrange from red to violet. Applied to autism, this suggests autistic people can be ranked. Ranked from more autistic to less autistic. But that's not how autism works.

Neurodivergent Advocate (8:58)

No, it's not. Again, nice for them to catch up.

Jordan (9:02)

Yes, thank you.

Neurodivergent Advocate (9:03)

Yeah, thanks for that. I appreciate.

Jordan (9:06)

Wasn't me. But yeah, you're welcome again.

Neurodivergent Advocate (9:08)

The thing is, it's one of these articles I really, really wish had been around in 2018 because I was like, oh, I might not ever have had depression and hated myself and wanted to rip the autism out of me, which is terrible to think that, that I was in that space and I had no one to turn to. So you people out there, you're welcome. Because of that depression, I managed to get through it and I ended up here feeling better about myself and trying to make other people not go through what I went, not go through what Scotty went. And I've desperately tried to not let my kids. And I have to say my kids have never ever hated being neurodivergent, which is awesome. The moment they found out they have only ever seen it as a positive, they have struggled. A lot of people, a long time ago someone said, oh, you got the golden ticket of autism. And it's something I will never, ever forget. I will never forget that. I mean I've had a lot of. Especially on the Internet, but I've actually. But somebody actually said that to my face. Oh yeah. I mean you're lucky. You got the golden ticket and it was someone from the National Autistic Society. Deep rooted hatred, just another reason to hate them. But that was one person. But there are many reasons to hate them. But yeah, so I. Right in the early days when I didn't understand how bad the NAS was. So let me explain this. How bad the organization is, not the individual branches because there's a lot of really wonderful people working for the nas. Wonderful people working for the nas who don't understand what it is they're doing and think they're doing the right thing. Maybe a bit like Trump supporters, if you. I don't want to get off the subject, but if you are still going, what is this problem with the nas? Just research it. Research all the nefarious shit that they do. Anyway, that aside, because that is not the hot topic. Well, now I've forgotten.

Jordan (11:16)

It's all good. So the article continues. And this is sort of, you know. Yeah. So the American Psychiatric Association's diagnostic manual divides autism into three levels, which is what I first heard when I was diagnosed, because so much of the reading. I went to the National Autistic Society for reading because I was like, oh, they're here to help. They're not, they don't like me. But that was what I understood, was the levels. And it's what a person is judged to need with support in America, as they say. And they run from level one, which is requiring support, to level two, which is requiring substantial support, and level three, which is requiring very substantial report, the article states. But there is research that argues these levels are vague and inconsistently applied. They do not always reflect someone's real world experiences. Life circumstances can change a person's needs. An autistic person who usually copes well may experience burnout and have an accompanying increase in support needs if their needs have to be unmet for a long time.

Neurodivergent Advocate (12:17)

Precisely. Oh, I do remember what I was saying.

Jordan (12:20)

Welcome back.

Neurodivergent Advocate (12:21)

Yeah. So I, I just made sure that, that my kids never felt like being autistic or being neurodivergent in general was ever a bad thing. And that's why they're able to advocate and Sophie's able to, to succeed. But yeah, when someone said to me, I've got the golden ticket of autism, it just kind of shat on all the terrible things that had ever happened to me because I'm autistic, not. Oh, autism caused these terrible things. And in some cases being autistic, being overwhelmed, being overloaded, being over emotional, being hyper vigilant, you know, sensitive, and all the things that come along with being a very, very sensitive being. Yeah, you could say that that has hurt me, but it's not really. It was, it was, it was people, it was environment.

Jordan (13:15)

That's what hurt reaction to your environment.

Neurodivergent Advocate (13:17)

Yeah, I don't feel like that's a golden ticket. You know, I didn't get the, I didn't get to go around the Charlie Chocolate Factory.

Jordan (13:23)

No, I mean autism.

Neurodivergent Advocate (13:24)

I just think it's A really shitty thing to say. The fact is I struggle just in the exact same ways as. As every other autistic person struggles. Not to the same degree. And that's the whole point. It's all our experiences. So I don't. Not everything I struggle with is going to be everything you struggle with.

Jordan (13:44)

Oh, no. You and I have like, literally totally different reactions to situations all the time.

Neurodivergent Advocate (13:49)

Still struggle to our environment, but just in completely different ways.

Jordan (13:53)

Yeah, with so unique reactions. And like, I've had it with people where I've had somebody describe me as level one and they go, well, aren't lucky. I was like, that's such. I was like, wow, you seem to know so much about me. Person that's just met and they go, well, you have a job and you have a partner and you have a house.

Neurodivergent Advocate (14:09)

And I'm like, yeah, it's all easy. It comes easy.

Jordan (14:11)

So easy. Oh, yeah. I just got to the shops and just picked up all three. Three for ten. Cracking. Now, that's not.

Neurodivergent Advocate (14:16)

I didn't have to work hard at it.

Jordan (14:18)

I absolutely murdered myself to get to this point. And, you know, the. The repercussions of the hard work to achieve those things have had detrimental effects on my social life, my working life, my. My relationships, everything. And there is always like a cause and effect with anything that I do in life because of how my body and my brain responds to the environments and situations it finds itself in. But exactly the same time, you and I could be in a crowded space, I could be absolutely loving life and you could be hating it. It's all so circumstantial. But you know what, dude, do you think we should take a little break and when we come back we'll finish off the pie?

Neurodivergent Advocate (14:54)

Yeah, sounds good.

Jordan (14:56)

A little bit of pie.

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Jordan (15:23)

This is a neurodivergent experience. Public announcement. If you live in England and you or a loved one is waiting for an autism or ADHD assessment, you don't have to wait years. RTN Diagnostics is now part of the NHS Right to Choose scheme, which means if your local weight for a consultant led autism or ADHD assessment is more than 18 weeks or you can choose RTN instead and it won't cost you a penny. Jordan chose RTN for his own family because their care and attention to detail were second to none. They didn't just diagnose autism and adhd, they looked at the full picture, including pda, ocd, anxiety and more. The team is friendly, neuroaffirming and comprises many neurodivergent individuals so they truly understand. Getting started is simple. Download the GP referral letter and questionnaire from the link in our show notes. Take those to your GP and ask for a referral to RTN diagnostics. If approved, RTN will be in touch within eight weeks to begin your assessment. Remember, this only applies in England and some exclusions do apply. RTN is not currently able to accept referrals for child ADHD assessments, so check the details before you start RTN diagnostics, helping you get the answers you deserve without the wait. Welcome back to this week's Hot Topic. We've been discussing an article all about the autism spectrum. Now, I'm just going to read a little bit more here, Jordan, because I think this is an interesting one. Often people use the term autism spectrum or on the spectrum, as a way of avoiding saying that somebody is autistic. While this is often well meaning, it is rooted in the idea that to be autistic is a negative thing. Many autistic adults prefer the words autism and autistic directly. Autism is not a scale of severity, but a way of being is a difference rather than a defect. Language will never capture every nuance, but words shape how society treats autistic people. Moving away from the idea of a single spectrum could be a step towards recognizing autism in all its diversity and valuing autistic people as they are.

Neurodivergent Advocate (17:50)

Say it louder for the really pull in the back of the people in the back. You know, I mean, I don't like the word expert, but that was an expert sentence. That was, that was fantastic. I mean, it's nothing that we haven't said a million times. It's nothing we haven't heard a million times. But this is in the Independent. This is a big newspaper article, probably being read by a lot more people that are ever going to read or listen to anything we've ever done. So I'm hoping that it will. I'm hoping more than anything it just makes people feel good about themselves because like I said, there's so many people that just feel so crappy about being neurodivergent. In general, it's just so terrible. And it doesn't help with Trumpet coming out and, and saying about epidemic and disease and all this crap. And it hurts. It hurts us. And when we get hurt enough, I think it's time to stop hurting people who literally are so raw an emotion that we experience the world as in the. The emotions and, and the feelings exactly the same as a neurotypical, but just on 10. So if a neurotypical is on one or two, and we're on 10, the.

Jordan (19:12)

Description that you had is like living without skin. Just summed it up perfectly, literally. That was like such a good metaphor to make that, like, feeling click with an image or an idea. But it states in this article as well, in the worst case, those judged as less useful. So, like, these lower levels for society become vulnerable to future genocides, which is a big thing to state in an article in the book.

Neurodivergent Advocate (19:37)

I thought that was really brave. It's something that, again, I have said. I've said that the more you talk about curing prevention, things like this, the more you're basically saying, we don't value people who, who don't bring anything to society. We don't value people that we have to look after. And, and, and this, this might sound terrible, but let's put it for the neurotypicals, okay? Because we do value everyone except Trump supporters. Yeah, we, we do value those people. Do we want to find a way to help them with, like, the idea of the synaptic pruning. Once again, an article hasn't mentioned synaptic pruning. What? Just thought I'd chuck that in there, which is really interesting. Some expert, again, does not mention synaptic pruning. We know about synaptic pruning. It's not, it's not like, oh, I didn't realize that. If you're an expert, you should know about common knowledge now, but when you're a specialist like me, you fucking do. So, yeah, we want to help them, but if you have the idea that you have something you love but it's not useful for doing anything, then. Do these people just want to get rid of pets?

Jordan (21:05)

Let the silence just sit there.

Neurodivergent Advocate (21:06)

Because, you know, because. Because what they're saying is that. And I'm not. I'm not. So obviously there's gonna be someone that. Did he just say that severely disabled autistic people are pets? No, I did not. That's. That's not what I'm saying.

Jordan (21:19)

People see you like an accessory, don't they?

Neurodivergent Advocate (21:21)

What. What I yeah, that's what I'm saying. I'm saying that if. If you look at someone and think, well, you don't provide anything for me, so therefore you don't deserve to exist. You're saying that any mammal that doesn't provide something for people doesn't deserve to exist. It's still a mammal, it's still a human.

Jordan (21:47)

There's just nothing worse as being described as like an undesirable, is there? And that's very, very worrying for a lot of autistic people in the UK Especially when you look at the political direction that the nation's going in. You know, RFK Jr. Who's the U. S. Health secretary, he's not some wacko with a podcast. He is the U. S. Health secretary wants to confront the epidemic. We are an epidemic, Jordan. And one of the things that really sort of like, really grinds my gears is people talk about autistic people like boomers talk about millennials having too many coffees and that's why we can't buy houses. It's like, oh, just, just stop doing that little thing. And then everything will work itself out. And it's like, oh, if we just stop having, you know, the autism afflicting our children, they'll never write poems, they'll never play baseball. And what they're truly saying is, is that they have no economic value. They're not going to boost the economy, they're not going to be good workers, they're not going to be able to integrate in society and vote and, you know, help with policies, which is absolute. It's. But yet that is what they're telling us. They're telling us that we're lesser humans, that there are issues with us that we aren't complete, that we aren't ever going to live truly fulfilled capitalist lives. Thus we should really consider whether we belong in it at all. And all of this language is like eugenics language. It's like what we would, you know, discussing with, like, canna in, like, the 30s and 40s. Here we are again. It's coming all back around. And that's what I like about this article, is that it states brave things. You know, discussing the fact that what we are essentially describing is having a genocide of a certain, you know, marginal population of minorities in society, which is, when you say it out loud, really fucked up. And that the language that we're using of people is. Is suppressing and marginalizing those groups. Because if you tell them that they're less, you tell them that they're not enough. You tell them that they'll never have more. Why would you ever aspire to be anything else? And that's in itself a genocide of potential because it's, it's just cutting everybody, it's curbing everybody. And that's why I'm so, as somebody who is very new into this sort of community in the scene, and I'm learning about the, the good and the bad across the, the political spectrum, ironically, of everything that people think about. Autistic people. Reading an article like this gives me hope because they're not aspiring to the. They're not talking about Tylenol. Yes. They're not discussing synaptic pruning, but they are actually talking about us. Like we're actually people and not just a thing like an accessory or a pet or an extra cup of coffee or avocado and toast that's stopping you buying a house. It's, we're like, you know, it's not deficit based language and it's so freeing to be able to talk about something like this and feel like it's supporting us, not talking about us.

Neurodivergent Advocate (24:49)

What I don't understand is that I've been doing this advocating like for the foreseeing neurodivergence in the positives. And I don't understand why, like, why, why this isn't more like, why does that. We've said this. Why does this article need to exist? This should just be what the understanding.

Jordan (25:18)

Is, just common knowledge, common sense.

Neurodivergent Advocate (25:21)

I mean, this is literally what everybody should just know about autism. It's like, why, why is it so secret? What, what's what, what is the secret? Why, why, why is it that just not everybody you talk to that has heard of autism thinks this way? And that's because the overwhelming majority of people will think of autism as being the overwhelming minority of autistic people. The, the, the quarter, or in, in my opinion, the far less than a quarter of all autistic people will match what they think autism actually is. And there's a lot of things in the mainstream media of like, oh, this is, this is autism, or that's autism, or this character is autistic or that's what that.

Jordan (26:17)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Neurodivergent Advocate (26:19)

Autistic coding. Or like even celebrities that come out and say that I'm autistic and it's great and it's wonderful.

Jordan (26:26)

Oh, Annie Lennox did it on the BBC the other day, but she still said I'm a little bit adhd.

Neurodivergent Advocate (26:32)

Yeah. Because the thing is, is that this, again, this is the problem when celebrities who just found out something, then start advocating for it. They're not unmasked, they're not ready to talk about it. They obviously are still embarrassed somehow. And that's just unhelpful. It's counterproductive to use any sort of language or I'm a little bit. Or I'm mild or anything like that. It's just counterproductive because it's, it's, again, it's just suggesting that it's terrible, it's awful, it's evil. Now, there is an argument that the neurodivergent brain in itself, the alternative neurotype, as I hypothesize, is this alternatively evolved brain that comes with these conditions. So there is an argument saying, well, if it's a condition, it is negative, it is bad, right? So we can say, oh, it's the alternative neurotype that comes with difficulties. Those difficulties are called adhd, autism, dyslexia, dyspraxia, and so on and so forth. OCD and so on and so forth. If they want to talk about that, then they need to talk about our brains being these remarkably evolved things that have massively benefited the world, that have unfortunate consequences of these conditions that have been bestowed upon us by the neurotypicals to explain why we can't do things. If that's the direction you want to go in calling autism a negative, then you've got to explain why being neurodivergent, having the alternative neurotype is a positive. But I'm the only person I've ever met that talks about the alternative neurotype and this being one brain. Now, I'm not saying I'm the only person that knows that or thinks that way. I'm just saying I'm the only person that I know who talks about it. I don't see articles about that. But if you're not going to talk about the alternative neurotype, you're not going to talk about the evolution of the human brain in the diversity of synaptic pruning. If you're not going to talk about that and you want to talk about autism and you want to say that that's the, that's the neurotype. The autistic brain is a neurotype. If that's the direction you want to go in, then you have to be positive about it. Because if you don't see any positive. So if you're saying this is the brain, it's an autism brain, so you're like this woman was saying that it's a way of existing that now being autistic is not a condition. It is a way of existing. It is a way of being.

Jordan (29:15)

It's an experience.

Neurodivergent Advocate (29:16)

It's an experience. And if that's the direction you want to go in, which in my mind I think that that's probably the better direction because that's the direction we're all in anyway. So we might as well just keep going because there's no downside to it. Well, then you've got to take the highs and the lows and you've got to realize that it's not something that's just damaged. You just plainly, oh, it's the worst thing ever. So I, I think one way or another, people need to change their mindset of, of either saying, well, this, this is the alternative neurotype that comes with autism, or this is the autistic brain that comes with positives and negatives. You, you, if you just look at the negatives, if you just think of it as something that damages you, then everyone is just gonna be so depressed.

Jordan (30:01)

And I was, dude.

Neurodivergent Advocate (30:03)

Yeah.

Jordan (30:03)

And I was, I was. Well, yeah, more power to articles like this. And I, I agree with everything you said. You know, accepting who I am and sort of living with the light and shade of just my living experience. You know, we all have ups and downs and, and good days and bad days, but our experiences are so individual and so unique. You can't just sort of lump it all together for me. You really, really can't. So I'm interested to know what you guys think. Have you read this article? What was your take on it? What did you think? And more power to more articles like this. But you know what, dude? There is, there is light at the end of the tunnel. We've had quite a few hot topics recently where we're reading articles that are really having good starting conversations. And I really hope that neurotypicals will read this and actually see the human behind the deficit that they've created for us. I really do. So, everybody, if you're listening to this, thank you so much for tuning in. We will be back with another hot topic next week. Remember that the Thursday show that will be preceding this one will be a pre record. So enjoy a classic episode of the neurodivergent Experience. And until then, my friend, I think we'll say goodbye to everybody. Take care of yourself, be kind out there, be safe, read good and yeah, more power to everybody nightly. Bye. Thanks for tuning in to the the neurodivergent Experience. We hope today's episode sparks something for you. Whether it's a new idea, a bit of validation, or just a moment of connection. Remember, new episodes are every week, so be sure to join us for the next one for more conversations and insights into the neurodivergent experience. If you've enjoyed this podcast, help us grow. You can do that by rating and reviewing this show. Your support makes a huge difference in helping us reach more people who could benefit from these conversations. You can connect with us on social media, find us on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok. Just search for the neurodivergent experience. Thank you again for listening and until next time, take care of yourself. You're not alone in this journey from.

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