Jordan James (2:57)

I'm Jordan James, a neurodivergent specialist, father of neurodivergent children, husband to a neurodivergent wife, and author of the Autistic Experience, and I'm joined by my best friend.

Simon Scott (3:09)

I'm Simon Scott. I'm an autistic ADHD broadcaster, actor and advocate. Join us as we journey into unraveling the neurodivergent experience. Hello.

Jordan James (3:22)

Hello and welcome back, everybody. Merry Christmas. I don't know when this is coming out. It might be after.

Simon Scott (3:31)

That's a very, very good question. It's coming out on Christmas.

Jordan James (3:39)

I bet no one's listening on Christmas Day, though.

Simon Scott (3:42)

No Jesus for us Mrs. No Jesus.

Jordan James (3:45)

For the miss pieces.

Simon Scott (3:47)

No cheeses for his Mises. Oh, see, the Muppets could have written Christmas Carol, but. Could have Charles Dickens written no Cheeses for His Mises? I. I doubt it.

Jordan James (3:56)

No. And remember, there's two Marleys.

Simon Scott (4:02)

I watched the Muppets Christmas Carol the other night and absolutely laughed my ass off at it. It's such a great film.

Jordan James (4:07)

I went and saw Die Hard in the cinema.

Simon Scott (4:11)

Sensational.

Jordan James (4:12)

And there's something. There's something about going and seeing a film in the cinema that you've watched many, many, many times. Anytime, like 30 times.

Simon Scott (4:22)

It.

Jordan James (4:23)

It's like watching it fresh because it's. It's a cinema. You're not sitting at home with all the distractions and, you know, getting up, you know, pausing it and making a cup of tea halfway through. It's just you, the cinema and my mate. And it's. It's so. It's so much better. And I forgot that that film is genuinely hilarious.

Simon Scott (4:45)

Yeah, it's a very different film if you're German watching it. Like Hans understood Guy. No, it's a great film. But you say that, dude, you know what's in IMAX at the moment, and if you're listening to this, please go and do it. I'm doing it. I'll have already have done it. But this Friday, coming after we recording the Shining is in IMAX at my local cinema. And I've only ever seen it on a small screen about 15 years ago, and Caris has never seen it. So. Very excited. Very, very excited.

Jordan James (5:15)

If you're a fan of the Shining, you never, ever read the book. Because it will ruin the movie for you. Because that's what happened to me. The book is so, so much better. And Danny Torrance is supposed to be the star of it. He is the main character of the book.

Simon Scott (5:35)

I love how you've gone. The book is much better than the film and it's probably one of the greatest films ever made.

Jordan James (5:41)

Yeah.

Simon Scott (5:42)

But we'll talk about what that is about in this episode, oddly enough. Funny that, isn't it?

Jordan James (5:48)

So what are we talking about?

Simon Scott (5:49)

Very good question. Well, if you've listened to this show or have ever interacted with Jordan and I in the real world. Lucky you, you got us out the house. But we're both very passionate people, aren't we? By nature. Very, very passionate people.

Jordan James (6:03)

Occasionally. Occasionally I've been known to get started.

Simon Scott (6:07)

I'll get passionate about disagreeing with you.

Jordan James (6:09)

Yeah, I've been known to go off on one every.

Simon Scott (6:13)

It was sporadic Thursdays and Fridays every week. In your feet.

Jordan James (6:20)

Fair enough.

Simon Scott (6:23)

So you kind of walked into that one.

Jordan James (6:24)

I have no arguments there. No notes.

Simon Scott (6:27)

No notes. No notes. But yeah. We are both incredibly passionate people and neurodivergent people. When you take in special interest data gathering, bottom up processing our world building, we're incredibly passionate people about what we care about. And it can be quite disabling in a way, especially in the neurotypical holistic world. Simply because I get misinterpreted as a person so much because of how passionate I am.

Jordan James (6:57)

Yeah, it's that neurodivergent neurotypical divide that I think affects us way more than it affects neurotypicals. It affects us the most in this neurotypical world because it makes us stand out and get ostracized. Because we're so misunderstood, we're so misinterpreted with so many things we do. From hand movements to the way that we speak, from the way that we meltdown to the way that we passionately talk about a subject. It's, it just gets misinterpreted all the time. It's. There's this lack of connection. Like I, I've said this how many times? I feel like Lego in a Meccano world, you know, that I'm just not sticking to anything. People aren't getting me. And that's, you know, that is why when I met neurodivergent people, especially ones with the same interests as me, it was, it just felt like this is where I belong. I'm, I'm home, I've met my people and it's not That I don't want to hang out with neurotypicals. It's not that I don't want to know anybody who's neurotypical or I don't want to get on with anyone that's neurotypical. It's simply that miscommunication. It's like a completely different language.

Simon Scott (8:28)

Totally. And a lot of it feels like for me personally, over sharing is something that has disabled me a lot in social settings because I do not really play my cards close to my chest. If I'm passionate about something, you will get a gist of that pretty, pretty quickly. And I'm interested to know. Dude, like, there are many sort of words that people have used to describe my passion when it's been misinterpretated. I'm intrigued. What comes to mind? What have people said about your passion in a negative way? Because I. I can think of several.

Jordan James (9:07)

Well, the negative things about me.

Simon Scott (9:09)

Well, no, but. Well, maybe. Maybe I'm not wording that right, but.

Jordan James (9:14)

No, no, no, I'm joking. Okay. So the, the number one thing is that people always think that. American people always think that I'm arrogant. And I think that I'm. I know everything. I mean, I do. And that's the problem is that I will joke.

Simon Scott (9:31)

People, I will joke.

Jordan James (9:32)

It's like, I mean, people who listen to this. No, it's my insecurities that come across. Yes, I am a confident person. Yes, I know my, my intellect. And I've been told it all my life. What my IQ was. It was shoved down my throat by my parents. The only thing they were proud of me was my high iq. But I don't give a crap about any of that. I really don't. It's not like it's helped me in life. In fact, if anything, it hinders me. Knowledge is power and power is misery. But unfortunately, because I generally think that I know what I'm talking about. And when I speak, this is the thing. There's a difference between facts and opinions. Right? When I'm speaking about a fact, I speak in. As a matter of fact, my biggest problem is when I speak about an opinion, I'm speaking about it in the exact same way as I'm speaking about a fact. But I'm. And, and I, and I. In the past, and this is something I learned in the past, I didn't use the words in my opinion or I think or for me or anything like that. I would just say my opinion as if it was a fact. And that's not because I Thought my opinion was a fact. It's just because I didn't even. Because it's like that thing that neurodivergent people do all the time, that my family do this all the time, is that you'll be having a conversation in your own head, and then suddenly, halfway through that thing that you're thinking of, you just start speaking, and then everyone's like, what? Sorry, squirrel. Squirrels do what? And you're like, oh, yeah, squirrels do this thing. You're like, but what has that got to do with.

Simon Scott (11:21)

And people interpret that as. And back to me. Yeah, and let's get back to whatever I want to talk about. And what about you? Many times. Oh, dude, I have been told that I am patronizing so much.

Jordan James (11:34)

I've never found you patronizing.

Simon Scott (11:36)

Maybe that's because you're. You're neurodivergent, I guess because I. Oh, man, I get so excited about things.

Jordan James (11:44)

I like the way that I said, you're not patronizing me, but you didn't say I wasn't arrogant.

Simon Scott (11:51)

Oh, sorry. I didn't realize that needed reassuring. Okay. You're not arrogant at all, mate. I'm not patronizing. Let me patronize you about being arrogant, I guess.

Jordan James (12:01)

Carry on.

Simon Scott (12:03)

No, but there have been. There have been times where, like, somebody's asked me about podcasting, and I can see the look on their face where they're like, don't tell me to suck eggs. I'm like, I'm not. I'm not. I'm not trying to. But I. Because of. I'm a. A data person. I'm a facts person. And I, too, sometimes state opinions in the same tone as I would a fact. And sometimes my opinion is formed because of a fact. But if people don't believe the fact, then they, for some reason, get really wound up by, like, my opinion. And another thing that I've struggled with is if somebody says to me, oh, why do you like that film? Why do you like that album? And I go, oh, let me tell you why I love this album. And, you know, my hands start to go. And, you know, I'm. I'm stimming, and I'm really involved in what I'm telling you about. Somebody will then go away and watch this film or listen to this album or play this video game and come back and go, well, you definitely made it out to be a lot better than it is. Well, it's open to opinion. I just really liked it, like, really liked it, like, as an example, right? You love Pennywise. You love Stephen King. You love the it sort of story. There's a TV show at the moment. I've watched it. I really enjoyed it. But I think a lot of the reasons as to why I've enjoyed it is I don't know the source material like many people do.

Jordan James (13:30)

Yeah, it's the same reason as, like, some people actually liked the Halo series.

Simon Scott (13:35)

Exactly. But that's the thing, dude, is you and I love films, we love tv, we love pop culture, and a lot of the time we talk about it. And even though you and I have a lot in common as friends and as big bro, little bro, we actually like a lot of different stuff. And there is so many times where I will come to you and go, oh, dude, I watched this show. It's so good. And you will watch. And you go, nah, it was okay. And I then interpretate that personally as well. Why did I like it? Like, am I foolish for liking it too much? What did I get? Like, this is. This is where I get. So, like, we had it where I came down to visit you. We were taking the dogs for a walk, and you went, you know what films I don't like? And you reeled off a couple. Couple. I was like, oh, I actually really like one of those. And off the back of that, you have purposefully. And I've done it as well, where rather than just stating our opinions, we go. In my opinion, this is. I think it's. Rather than just going, oh, it's. And we've. And we've worked on that together. But not a lot of people will. They'll just kind of listen to you and go, shut the up.

Jordan James (14:45)

Yeah. Sylvia does that when. When she. She calls my pop characters and my cuddly toys dust collectors. And factually, they do. They do collect. But so does everything that we own. I mean, I'm a dust collector.

Simon Scott (15:05)

The. You're a dust creator, man.

Jordan James (15:07)

Yeah. Literally, the settee collects dust. Everything collects dust. So why are you.

Simon Scott (15:12)

If Ollie lays still for long enough, he will get dusty.

Jordan James (15:15)

He will be dust soon. Oh, go. But everything collects dust. But why. Why are you, like, pointing those things out? And. And it's definitely an insult. And she said, oh, I'm just joking. I'm like, yeah, behind your joke, there's the serious. I know that you really don't like those things, but we've already had that discussion, so you don't need to keep going on about it. But that's. That's. Again, that's that misinterpretation, because she doesn't mean to say it. It's. It's that outer monologue that. That we just. She's thinking it, and then without thinking, she just says it, and it comes.

Simon Scott (16:02)

Out unformed as well. It's like, very blunt. And to the matter of fact, oh.

Jordan James (16:06)

My goodness me, that woman is blunt. Like, wow. And I think that when. When we say things or when neurodiversion people will say things so many times, it will be that outer monologue of I was thinking that and I shouldn't have said that and so many times. And it literally happened to me yesterday where my son came to us and he said, dad, I've got a torn acl. Yeah, he's been walking and he's playing basketball on it. This. This boy, like. And the thing is, it doesn't matter how many times we said, don't do that, don't do that. He just ignores us. It's demand avoidance. He's gonna go do it. So you try and give him all the advice. And when he comes to us, he's like, well, I've got a torn ACL and I've got this problem with my knee, and I might have to have surgery instead of. And this is something I've learned instead of saying, oh, I told you so. Well, we told you because Sylvia. It nearly came out her mouth. I told.

Simon Scott (17:14)

Because she loves the I'm not fire Christ.

Jordan James (17:17)

And I looked at her and was like. And I just walked up to my son and I just hugged him. And I'm so sorry.

Simon Scott (17:24)

It's a really good thing to do.

Jordan James (17:26)

I just hugged him because I. He doesn't have that passion of, like, his sadness does not come across. Is that alexithymia thing. It just doesn't come across. But I know how he's feeling, and he needed that hug.

Simon Scott (17:40)

You know what, dude, you've made such a great point there in that sometimes I misinterpret people's passion as patronizing. As an example, right? My mom cares about me so much, she sometimes just tells me what to do in that. I'm like, oh, I'm just popping to the shop because I need to get some bits. And instantly she goes, well, you know, it's Christmas and you've got to get there, really. And then you need to get this and you need to get that, and you need to. And I. And I end up having to say to her, mom, I've not run you to talk about that. She goes, oh, okay, love. But that used to really get under my skin because I didn't misinterpret that as she's overly passionate. She really cares about me. I interpretated that as well. Obviously she thinks I can't do it. I've not got my together and I'm a mess. Otherwise, why would she be offering me all of this help? That's the really difficult sort of negative imposter syndrome space that I can get in. But one of the benefits of realizing that and acknowledging it, it's made me aware that I do it to other people too. It's like you'll say to me, I'm a back sore and I have to stop myself going, have you stretched? Have you tried a heat pan? Have you tried this? And have you tried that? Because I care. But I know that you do all of those things because you know more about a bad back than I ever will. But there's still that internal monologue part of me that wants to go, well, have you tried stretching? Have you tried doing this? Have you tried doing that? And it sounds like I'm telling you to suck eggs.

Jordan James (19:05)

Well, yeah, no, it. The thing is, is that I don't take it as patronizing anymore. But I have in the past, and it used to really bother me, especially at work when I'd have people going, oh, yeah, you know, all you've got to do is that. And I'm like, yeah, I know how to do my job because I was.

Simon Scott (19:22)

Insecure, or you do something wrong and they go, don't do it again.

Jordan James (19:26)

Yeah, well, now, that's not misinterpreting people. That's just knowing someone's a dick. Oh, don't do that. Awful. I fell down mountain. Don't do that again. I appreciate you.

Simon Scott (19:39)

Next time I'm on a mountain, I'll not throw myself off it. Thanks.

Jordan James (19:41)

No. Do you know what I will do? I'll go up the mountain and chuck you off it.

Simon Scott (19:45)

But then, look at this response that can be interpretated is as what, Potential murder.

Jordan James (19:52)

Yeah, I. The thing is, is that as chill, as calm as I've become, there is always going to be that fire in me that's like you. Yeah, but I, you know, that's just who I am as a person. But anyway, so what I was saying about Simon is that, you know, I cuddled him and that and then I went and saw him upstairs a bit later and he was talking to. To Katie's girlfriend and she was on loudspeaker and, you know, and. And you know, she's saying, oh, I'm just let me know when the surgery is. And I'll make sure that I take time off work. And I, Simon had a couple of surgeries when he was younger and I, he always asked for me to be there. He wanted, he wanted Daddy. And you know, I, I sort of went, oh, don't worry, I'll take him, I'll be there for him. And the intent was I, I want to be a good dad. Even though he's 24, I still want to be there for you. And the way I said it, the way I said it was very forceful because I didn't, and I didn't mean it to be. And as soon as I said it, in the way I said it, my, my little arm went off in my brain that went, you've probably upset someone, but it didn't kick in straight away. And I left. And then later on Simon said, oh, by the way, Katie was a little bit upset because she thought that you don't want her to be there. And that is not Katie's fault for thinking that way. She, she's got rst like the rest of us and I know that. And I was like. And instead of doubling down, instead of having that cognitive dissonance of going, well, that sounds like her problem. That's not how I meant it. That's her issue. I was like, oh, crap. I, my bad. I don't want, I don't want anyone to feel bad about the things I say. Unless you support Trump. I only am trying to love my son in that moment, but I've also upset my future possible daughter in law who I do care about a lot. So I started messaging and it was all sorted in the end. But it's, it's, that is the example of being misinterpreted is even within the neurodivergent community because of the different traits, symptoms. If you really, really want to go deep into that, that we have like Alexithymia, like rsd me being brash and just saying what I say in the exact same way as Sylvia can really hurt my feelings when she doesn't mean to. We can hurt each other's feelings, you and I, and we don't mean to. So it's not just a neurodivergent, neurotypical thing, it's just a neurodivergent in general thing.

Simon Scott (23:10)

Yeah, absolutely. And I've, I've been on the end of it and I've, I've done it and nine times out of ten I've upset somebody and I didn't mean to like. And I, and I've been described as arrogant. I've been described as like an asshole. I've been patronizing. I've been an overseller or an exaggerator. I've had, I've had a lot of labels and nine times out of 10, it never, it's never my intention at all. And it's difficult when you are labeled as something based off of being passionate or caring or caring, quote, unquote, too much. But we'll take a bit of a short break here and when we come back, I would love to discuss because I am somebody who struggles with expectation and disappointment, but when I'm passionate about things I'm disappointed and have expectations about, it can cause issues in my life. So when we come back, delve into that.

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Simon Scott (25:54)

This is a neurodivergent experience. Public announcement if you live in England and you or a loved one is waiting for an autism or ADHD assessment, you don't have to wait years. RTN Diagnostics is now part of the NHS Right to Choose scheme, which means if your local wait for a consultant led autism or ADHD assessment is more than 18 weeks, you can choose RTN instead and it won't cost you a penny. Jordan chose RTN for his own family because their care and attention to detail were second to none. They didn't just diagnose autism and adhd, they looked at the full picture, including pda, ocd, anxiety and more. The team is friendly, neuroaffirming and comprises many neurodivergent individuals, so they truly understand. Getting started is simple. Download the GP referral letter and questionnaire from the link in our show notes. Take those to your GP and ask for a referral to RTN diagnostics. If approved, RTN will be in touch within eight weeks to begin your assessment. Remember, this only applies in England and some exclusions do apply. RTN is not currently able to accept referrals for child ADHD assessments, so check the details before you start RTN diagnostics, helping you get the answers you deserve without the wait. Welcome back to the Neurodivergent Experience. We hope you've been enjoying this little episode of not emissing interpreted what we've said because that's what we've been talking about when our passions are misconstrued. Now something that I live with most days is disappointment because I have high expectations of life, I suppose, but the amount of times, dude, that my disappointment or when like my expectations haven't been met or I feel let down. A lot of times in my life I felt like a spoiled child with how I've reacted or responded to things. And a lot of the time as well, I've been told I'm aggressive. Not easy because I don't feel aggressive.

Jordan James (28:19)

No, I mean I've never seen you act aggressive but then that could just be with me because I understand you. But it's quite funny actually because I do think that there's a lot of people in this world that over react to things they like, oh, that's so aggressive.

Simon Scott (28:40)

I can't believe you've done this.

Jordan James (28:42)

It's, oh, it's so rude and you're just like, I literally have barely done anything to you and it's like people just, it's, it's like Karen syndrome or Whatever the hell is. Like, you know, someone will just like literally brush against someone and then they sort of fly over back. Oh, he just punched me. Like, it could just be that some people are just, oh, I don't want to say overly sensitive because like, that is something that we get accused of being all the time.

Simon Scott (29:07)

Yeah, sure.

Jordan James (29:08)

But like over the top when it comes to what is. I mean, I've been called a bully simply because I had opinion that differed from someone else. And I was like, well, I just disagree with you. And like, oh, I feel, I feel attacked by you. I feel this is, I thought this was a safe space. And I was like, I literally just said I disagreed. That was all. I disagree with that.

Simon Scott (29:30)

I experienced that as well working in theater. I had a moment where somebody was like, what do you think of this creative decision I've made? Isn't it brilliant? And I was like, I won't say it was brilliant. And that went down like a lead balloon. And I was told, oh, this was, I thought this was a safe creative space where we can, we can our express ourselves. And I was like, and I'm just expressing. I don't think it's as great as you think it is. Doesn't mean I'm right.

Jordan James (29:54)

Yeah.

Simon Scott (29:55)

Or yes, my, this is where I get the phrase, do you want me to jump me to tell you what I think or do you want me to tell you what you want to hear? Comes, comes to, comes to mind for me. I do say that to people and then people interpret that as being rude anyway when I'm trying to almost be a little bit accommodating. But as somebody who is openly said that they've struggled with anger and, and that can relate to passion. How has that negatively affected you when you've been overly passionate? Or let's just, just passionate in general about something that you're disappointed about or really cared about.

Jordan James (30:31)

I mean, that's a really good question because I, I think having my anger issues, which are completely separate to me being passionate because now if I'm still passionate about something, it still sounds like I'm upset because I am. And, and, and you're allowed to be upset. We, we should allow ourselves to be upset by the things that upset us. We shouldn't be trying to hold that back. It's just, you know, how much we allow things to upset us to then affect our lives. So I have got angry because I've got upset, you know, with like, sense of justice and you know, being upset because something didn't go the way I would expect it to go. And. And that does roll into, like, pop culture. You know, I could be really looking forward to, like, let's say, the new Ed Sheeran album. It comes out and I'm just like, I'm not into this. And in the past, I could have been really upset because I was so excited about it, but nowadays I'm a lot more chill with the whole thing, and that's much, much better for my mental health overall. But with my actual anger issues, like, those were separate, that they were a mental health thing, like, formed when I was a child from what I saw and how I was brought up. And although they. They do appear to be the same thing at times, they are very different. And I think that's what I'm struggling with when it comes to people understanding or people seeing how much I have changed this year, because I would say this is the best year for my mental health and my anger issues. Just. I cannot tell you how much they've improved. Like, so much.

Simon Scott (32:24)

Yeah, you've put so much work in, dude, and it really shows. Genuinely, it really shows.

Jordan James (32:30)

You know, when, like, people lose weight and they're really proud of themselves and work really hard and people say, yeah, have you lost weight? You look really good. That means so much. And that's what it feels like to me when anybody says, oh, yeah, no, you have really changed. You know, you. You've improved so much. It means so much to me because I've spent 43 years of my life just. I was born angry. That's how I felt.

Simon Scott (32:56)

And I don't punch the midwife as she came out.

Jordan James (32:59)

Oh, right, Good old Kick, right on the phone. And I. And I just don't feel that anymore. I think that's the big difference is I don't feel that anger. But my. I'm always going to be a fiery person. I'm always going to come across sometimes as being aggressive and. And I don't mean to. And that is different from anger. That is just my natural dominance as a person coming through. And I don't think that's something I need to work on because all my family are just like, yeah, that's just. That's fine. It's like. Because I don't hurt anyone doing it, but people do still think, oh, well, he's getting very angry about that. And that really hurts my feelings because I'm not angry. It's like, I'm not angry. I don't know. So I'm not angry. Then I thought of the Halo TV show. And that made me angry. It's like, I'm not angry. Like, I'm not gonna go and, like, write a letter to the people that made the Halo TV show. But I am deeply upset because Halo is like one of my. Halo is like my favorite thing in the world. Lord of the Rings. And it's like, I was. I was upset about the new Lord of the Rings TV show because it sucked donkeys. It was terrible. And I. And. But my upset was like, oh, I'm really upset about that. And I just didn't watch it. Like, I won't. I won't make myself angry by watching it and then, you know, pissing all over it. It's just this.

Simon Scott (34:32)

Yeah. That makes me think of when the Star wars sequels were coming out. I didn't go and see the last one because I knew what was coming. I just. I wasn't interested. And I was really, really disappointed that, like, one of my favorite film franchises kind of went down the route that it did. I was like, wow. I came. I was. I literally had a conversation with somebody where I was like, I've come up with better stories with my action figures as a nine year old. And I was very heated about it because I was so, so disappointed. Not just disappointed in the fact that I didn't like the couple of films that they brought out. I was disappointed in that it killed one of my biggest special interests. Star wars is not a special interest to me anymore. Like, it used to be. Not even. Not even close, dude. Not even close. And I was so sort of disappointed by it. I have friends that I discuss things with and was having a conversation with one person, he was like, wow, I don't get why you're being so heated. This is the problem with fans in the. In the fan sphere that have opinions like you do. And I was like, I don't know why that is the response that I've got. I thought you asked me what I thought. I've told you what I've thought. And now you've lumped me in with people I've never even spoken to, heard of, or know anything about. And that upset me even more because I was like, why are you assuming that I'm a certain person based off the fact that I didn't go and see a movie? And I went back and forth with it and somebody was like, oh, you're just one of those, like, aggressive male fans that hates these people and these people. And I was then going, at no point did I say that I disliked the movie because it Had a female lead. I actually really wanted it to work. The thing that.

Jordan James (36:22)

Sorry, I was gonna say it's like being accused of being anti woke when we are not anti woke.

Simon Scott (36:26)

Yeah, yeah.

Jordan James (36:27)

Like not, not even a little bit. We're very, very left wing.

Simon Scott (36:30)

Very much, very much so.

Jordan James (36:31)

We're very, very progressive. We're like, oh, a female character. Fantastic. That's. I thought, oh, there's a female Jedi. I was like, oh, kick ass. And then, and then, and then they wrote the story and then she was on the screen. I went, that was terrible writing. Because it's not the fact that she's a woman, it's the fact that the writing was crap.

Simon Scott (36:51)

Yeah.

Jordan James (36:51)

In the exact same way with Halo, they didn't, they didn't replace Master Chief with a woman. What they did was make Master Chief a terrible, crappy, annoying character that didn't keep his fecking helmet on. That pissed me off. Has nothing to do with. With anti woke. It has nothing to do with left wing. Right wing. Has everything to do with boring, lazy, crappy. Right.

Simon Scott (37:11)

Disappointed me. And I've had it as well where.

Jordan James (37:14)

Like being passionate again.

Simon Scott (37:16)

Yeah, here we go. But here's the thing. Like, is like, I've always been a sports fan. I love sports. I'm not the sort of person that like stands and points at the TV and goes, you're a disgrace.

Jordan James (37:27)

You get by.

Simon Scott (37:32)

I'm not that kind of football fan. It's like, I'm not somebody that's gonna talk to somebody who, who supports another team and start bringing up like, oh, you've spent money on these amount of players you like. I'm like, it has nothing to do with me. I am a fan of a team. I didn't pay for the player. I don't run the club. I'm a fan of the club. And I've had it where previous ex girlfriends of mine have gone, I don't want a boyfriend who's going to get passionate when sports on the tv because it gives me the ick. And I'm like.

Jordan James (38:02)

There was the door over there.

Simon Scott (38:04)

But that's the mystery. My passion. And like Liverpool have had a really bad run of form. And you saw when they lost when I was at the house, I was like, I was so frustrated because I was like, come on, you're better than this. And a lot of people sort of have lumped me in the. Oh, you're just a bloke who swears at the tv and I don't even swear at the tv. That's the thing that frustrates me because I get frustrated, I get a bit moody. I'll put my hand up, I do, you know, if my football team loses, I've been excited about it all week. I've read about it, excited for the game and I watch it. They don't play very well, they don't play with passion and the result isn't what I would want. I'm not just going to turn it off and go, oh, just get on with my life now, like for an hour or two afterwards, I am going to be a bit moody. And the amount of times where I have been in that sort of headspace and I've had people pick at me and they're like, oh, well, why are you getting so upset? It's just a game you're not playing. It's nothing to do with you. And it's like, prod, poke the bear, poke the bear, poke the bear. And then I have a reaction and then I'm labeled as aggressive.

Jordan James (39:08)

Yeah, I think I, I mean it's, it's that lack of empathy and, and, and it's like that, that again, it's like two different languages and they, we can have multiple languages within the neurodivergence community. You know, we all have our own. I, I've got like my complete unique language of, of how I speak and how I interpret things. But that's the thing. Is that it, for me, for my mental health, it was fantastic getting out of football because I would have the same thing as you if Chelsea lost. That was it. I was miserable for days. And I get miserable just in general. It's like just adding on to that. Just felt like self harm.

Simon Scott (39:51)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there are times I experience felt.

Jordan James (39:54)

Like self harm because you just end up hating it. Which is why my dad doesn't watch basketball. Yeah. And that's why I, I don't watch it. It's not like I don't like football. I just can't deal with being disappointed or having that ultra high to do that ultra low. And the VAR made that even worse. Oh God, we're gonna get passionate again. Oh, do I mean anger. Don't do that, don't do that, don't do that. So that's why basketball, I mean, I love basketball more anyway, but I, I actually, from my mental health it's way better because I follow multiple teams. So I, I'm, I'm a fan of like multiple teams in basketball because I, I actually more support the players. So I've got like my favorite players and if they move to, you know, move to a different team, I'd start following that other team and people, oh no, you've got to support one team. Well, yeah, okay. In football. In football that may be true. And if you're English, whatever. But I can do what the hell I want, really. Because I'm just enjoying watching basketball and I watch multiple games and I enjoy all of it and I don't get disappointed and start just being really sad. Sometimes I do if it's a team I really like and they lose and. But it's not to the degree that it was with football.

Simon Scott (41:08)

Yeah. And it's not like I have days of it, but because of the people that are in my life that do follow football. And I have some friends that are wind ups and I've got one particular friend who I care about daily, but he's, he's a stirrer. And he knows he does it. He loves doing it. He almost like it annoys me sometimes how he will celebrate your team losing more than his own winning. And he can really get under my skin and he knows that he can and he gets a bit of fun out of it. And there are some times I'm just like, this is just all part of being a fan. It's all part of the fun. But there are certain times where it goes straight through me and I have to really bite my tongue because I know it's not personal. But even then there are times where I have rebuttals and I'll think that I'm having banter with people over sport or whatever and people go, oh, that's too far, mate, you've took it too far. And I was like, you were literally just calling out my ancestral line here. And I've just mentioned that your team's a bit. Now I feel like we're too far, mate, too far. And I always feel like I can never find the line. It's like people are line steppers with me and are very personal with me. And I will go, sorry, that was a bit personal. Can you stand back a bit? They go, oh, well, if you can't take a joke, don't be, you know, don't be aggressive. Why do you have to bite? And I'm like, if you poke a bear and it bites you, who's. Who's at fault? You know? And that was the bit that always used to really frustrate me is I try not to agitate anybody, but then when I've been agitated and then people go, well, just don't react that way I, I just get a fan. Like I'm in a rock and a hard place situation there and I find it's just better sometimes to say nothing. But then I'm just sort of, you know, going into like that selective mute sort of element that I can get into because I'm afraid of upsetting people, so I don't say anything and it's not a good place to be sometimes.

Jordan James (43:12)

Yeah, I've had to do that at work, like office politics and all that. It's just sometimes I, I just. I'm just better off saying nothing. And that, that's where I've got to that point because of the political climate. And it's almost. It is left versus right and it's like extreme left versus extreme right. And I'm not either. You know, I'm.

Simon Scott (43:33)

You want to tax the billionaires, You're a terrorist.

Jordan James (43:36)

I'm Lib Dem. I'm like central left.

Simon Scott (43:38)

Yeah.

Jordan James (43:38)

I'm left wing with like in, in like a more. A more sensible way.

Simon Scott (43:46)

Left center. Now to some's right wing. It's, it's. You can't win with anybody. It's crazy.

Jordan James (43:50)

I, I kind of just. I kind of just try and do my own thing and like, there's all these extremes happening around me and I get, you know, this is why I, I don't really do Facebook that much because I use one wrong word and I get attacked by the extreme left and I use one, you know, like, progressive thing and I get attacked by the extreme right. And I'm just like, I don't care what any of you think because I am just trying my best. I'm not a bad person. I'm not a horrible human. I don't want to hurt anybody. I, I just, I'm just, I'm just trying my best and I. And I think that that's, that always comes across as well, that's what I mean by being misinterpreted is that like you, you will literally say like the most neutral sounding thing and yet both sides of the argument will, will somehow make you sound like you're the extreme left or extreme right. It's. It's just a difficult place to navigate through social media. And I think being misinterpreted through text, through comments, through writing is probably where I get misinterpreted the most as an advocate. Cool.

Simon Scott (45:16)

Let's take a break and let's dig into that.

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Tilapia surprise with boiled cabbage. Begin cooking steps 1 through 50. Now.

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We live in a culture obsessed with dieting, weight loss and exercise, and that can make eating disorder behaviors easy to miss. But the reality is eating disorders are serious mental illnesses that take a major toll on your health and your life. But recovery is possible. Eating disorders are more common than you might think. Chances are you know someone who is struggling with one, or maybe you're struggling yourself. If you're concerned about an eating disorder in yourself or a loved one, I want to introduce you to equip. Equip is a fully virtual evidence based eating disorder treatment program that helps patients achieve lasting recovery. At every eqip patient is matched with a multidisciplinary care team that includes a therapist, dietitian, medical provider and mentors and you get a personalized treatment plan that's tailored to your unique goals and challenges. EQIP treats patients of all ages and all eating disorder diagnoses. It's covered by insurance and there's no wait list. If you think that you or a loved one could be struggling with an eating disorder, don't wait to get help. Visit Equip Health to learn more. That's Equip Health.

Simon Scott (46:59)

Have you ever felt stuck in patterns that don't serve you, struggled with stress, or wanted to connect more deeply with yourself? Then I have to introduce you to a friend of the podcast Ashley Bentley of Integrated Coaching, Breathwork and Hypnotherapy. Ashley is a highly experienced clinical hypnotherapist and coach specializing in working with neurodivergent minds. Through a unique blend of integrative coaching, breathwork and Hypnotherapy, Ashley helps people rewire subconscious patterns, regulate their nervous systems, step into more empowered versions of themselves. Whether you're dealing with addiction, anxiety, burnout, or struggles with self acceptance, Ashley offers practical and science backed tools tailored just for you. Her unique methods combine neuroscience, storytelling, subconscious transformation to create real, lasting change. Jordan and I can personally attest to the profound and transformative effects of her sessions which have been life changing. She does all of these sessions online, meaning she can work with you no matter where you are in the world. If you're ready to break Free from old patterns and start living with more clarity, confidence and connection. Go to Bit ly Ashleynde to book a free consultation or learn more foreign. Welcome back to the neurodivergent Experience. We've been discussing being passionate, being misinterpreted, and people not quite taking us how we intend to be. And before the break, Jordan touched on a brilliant point, which is being misinterpreted through writing or online and especially being an advocate. So I'm really interested to know did you've been an advocate much longer than I have, but it must be hard giving people advice when you're constantly being misinterpreted or trying to, like, help anybody.

Jordan James (48:58)

Yeah, I mean, I. I remember one time where someone asked me about their photography, so it was like a private message, and someone said, oh, could you give me some advice on my photography? And I was like, yeah, sure. Of course. They sent me their pictures, and they were very, very amateurish. Like, suit. Like, suit. Like, I just took it on my phone. I wasn't. There's. They're not thinking about the light. They're not thinking about the subject. I mean, there was a picture of a horse in the field with. With a fence in front of it. And, like, just like they were on a gray day. And I'm like, okay, it's a picture of a horse. And I'm like, it's fine. And they were like, yeah, I don't understand why I can't sell this. And I'm like, oh, my. You're trying to sell this. You want people to pay money and put that on their wall? I get surprised when people buy my pictures and put them on the wall. I'm like, so excited. Every time I ever made a sale, I'm like, I want to know what picture they got. I'm like, oh, which. Which picture did you like? I'm still excited about that six years into it. And I'm like, you. You don't understand. And I'm like, okay, fine. You're seeing things differently tomorrow. So I said, okay, this is what you need to do to improve your photography. And she was so angry at me. She was like, you've made me want to give up on photography. And. And I. And I. And I. Before I sent the messages I sent, I said, sylvia was sitting next to me. And I was like, babe, is that. Is that okay? Like, if I. Does that sound mean? And she's like, no, that sounds really helpful. She went, but you still shouldn't be helping her. And I was like, why? She goes, because people don't really want help. People just want to be told that they're good at something.

Simon Scott (50:55)

Yeah.

Jordan James (50:56)

And I'm like, but she's not good at it. And Sylvia's like, right, but she doesn't want to hear that, so. Yeah, but she asked me for help. And I have been misinterpreted so many times when I'm trying to help someone because they've asked for my help, because I can help them, because I know what I'm talking about. And they will think of it as like an attack or, you know, that they're not good enough. And I'm like, you asked me, like, what you said earlier, you know, do you want to me to tell you what I think or what you want? And it turns out it's always what they want to hear.

Simon Scott (51:39)

Nine times out of ten. Yeah.

Jordan James (51:42)

Yeah, it was really hurtful. And, and I, I, then I stopped doing it. I was like, I'm not, I'm not helping anyone anymore with, with this, like, if, And I, I, I used to do photography online, like teaching it, but now I'm very, very worried about ever doing that again.

Simon Scott (52:03)

I've had it with podcasting though, dude. And I've had it with like, even sort of like neurodivergent advocacy. Like, I've had somebody say to me, oh, I've had trouble with my kid about X, Y, Z reasons. And I go, oh, that sounds like RSD or PDA or just being autistic though. Oh, but I don't like labels. Like, I, Are you left handed or right handed? I'm right handed. I thought you said you don't like labels. And then that just caused a big old spiral of a. Because I was trying to like break it down into, well, if you go to the doctor and you've got a lump and they tell you it's cancer, are you going to tell them you don't like labels or are you just going to try and get support and deal with it? And apparently I came across as aggressive. But the reason as to why I was trying to like, get through to them is I hit this point where somebody was asking how I could support them or not in the way that I support people. And I was like, I don't know how to tailor this to you. You're somebody who's been put in touch with me randomly. I'm sending you a message. There isn't a cure for this. There is only learning to love yourself and improving your environment and the people you share it with. I don't know how to put this in a. In a better way for you?

Jordan James (53:19)

Do you think you could have put it in a better way if you had been speaking to that person?

Simon Scott (53:23)

Absolutely.

Jordan James (53:24)

Because as much as we were talking about in the first half is that it is difficult in. With the words that we use and the tone that we use. At least we can adjust that because I've. I'm much better with how I speak to people. I still mess up every now and again, but I'm. I do better, especially at work. I'm much, much better at the tone that I use and the way that I try and explain things or just not saying anything but in written form. That is where I've had nearly the, like, the. The biggest issues on social media. It's just all down to being misinterpreted through. Through words written.

Simon Scott (54:05)

We've had it, dude. We've talked about things in life or in the show or in. Or in general. And I've read it, and I've gone, oh, is Jordan upset with me? And then I've rung you, and you're like, hey, man, how's it going? I was like, oh, what was the message about? And you went, just asking you something. Oh, oh, okay. And we've had to communicate a few times. There's been times where you and I have got frustrated or upset with each other. And genuinely, I think every single time you and I have ever had friction, it's because we've misinterpreted a written message from each other, which is why we ring each other or sometimes send voice notes if. If we're not sort of getting it. Like you said to me, you ever misinterpreted me, send a shrug emoji and I'll ring you. And that has been super, super helpful. But it has happened where you and I have gone, I want to call an episode this. And you've gone, I don't like that. And I go, why? Well, why not? And you go, well, these reasons. Okay, that makes sense. But when you sent the message of just going, I don't like it, my brain then goes, oh, well. Oh, okay. And it's. It's. It's such a difficult one with. With. With messaging because I misinterpretate what I read a lot. Like, I sometimes will read an email from somebody, and it's like, they'll go, I just want this. And they'll use just in, like, full caps. And I'm like, is that patronizing? Or they're trying to be clear in the communication and I just overthink things when it's written down so much, especially when I'm writing it as well. Like, it's. It's hard.

Jordan James (55:39)

Do you think that what you were just saying then with. When I, like, disagree with the. The name of a title or something like that. Do you think that in my writing, you have noticed a difference in the way that I answer you since my anger issues have been improved?

Simon Scott (56:02)

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Jordan James (56:04)

Because isn't that funny that, like, literally my anger has been. Was coming across even though I wasn't angry. But that anger always bubbles and sort of came out in. In ways that I didn't want it to.

Simon Scott (56:18)

As a perfect example, dude, I would message you and go, when are we going to record this week? And last year you would have gone, I want to record on Wednesday. Go, oh, I can't record on Wednesday. And you go, Thursday. Then I can't do Thursday. But, well, when can you do it? And that, to me was like, oh, I'm trying to figure it out when really you were just going, I can't do that day. I can't do that day. What about this day? And now you just go, what day works for you, dude? Because this is when I'm free. And you have literally changed your communication style drastically, I think, because when we were first sort of doing the show, I actually really struggled to read during your, you know, your energy through texts. Like, there would be times where you would text me, and I'd be like, oh, John's in a good mood. And I'd ring you and you'd be like, I've had the worst meltdown at work. I've had this. And I'm like, all right, dude. Okay. Didn't. Didn't pick up on that. And then there'll be times where, like, you've been, you know, sort of super happy. I'd be like, oh, I've not heard from you from a few days, man. Is everything okay? Yeah, I've just been having a lovely time with the family and all this is great. Okay, cool. But I always see. I, you know, I always want to follow up just to 100 be sure. But a lot of that is my own insecurity about misinterpreting people. It's not that I'm like, oh, are you okay? I want to, you know, handle you with bubble wrap and safety gloves. It's more my own insecurity of going, are you 100 sure you. You're definitely being honest with me. Or, you know, that's. That's sort of where it comes down to. But your messaging style has changed so, so much. You definitely don't come across as if you're thumping the. The keyboard with like, you know. You know what I mean?

Jordan James (57:56)

Yeah, no, that's why I said it. I was like, oh. Because it suddenly just sort of hit me that I think that, like, I said that that anger would. Would just surface in so many different aspects of my life because it was just always there. And now if I do get angry, it's because it's like a. Like that's. Because that's just a genuine human feeling. Like, just I'm actually angry because I'm angry. Rather than that anger is just bubbling like molten lava, just spilling out randomly and completely irrelevant and. And random situations that I'm not angry about. But people are feeling that anger, so they think that I'm angry. But I mean, I. I will get angry. I mean, I was angry when that reformed prick said that, you know, it's terrible that people wear headphones in class.

Simon Scott (58:55)

Yeah, me too.

Jordan James (58:56)

Suck an ass. I hate that guy. Like, but there's a difference because that's just me being angry. It's like, I hate that guy. That makes me angry. But my angry now is like, that makes me angry rather than punching a wall like that. But it, it is very, like a very, very, very rarely meltdown. I still have very tiny meltdowns. I had one yesterday and now I have a split knuckle where I punch my Google home. It's a bit useless, but it was such a small thing and, and it's so rare now. It really is.

Simon Scott (59:37)

Like, you used to ring me after your, like, what we would say, like, mini flare meltdowns. And now you will have maybe, you know, you won't even tell me sometimes now. Like, you used to ring me sometimes and almost in like floods of tears being like, oh, I've had a meltdown. I'm so upset with myself. And now you'll text me and be like, had a bit of a meltdown this morning, but I'm fine. And that's a huge, huge jump for you, man. Like, that's been such a progression of, of healing for you, man. It's been great to see.

Jordan James (60:05)

Yeah. A huge difference is when I do have those little hiccups, I don't blame myself. I don't hate on myself. And it doesn't, it doesn't carry on to the next day. And I. I don't even do a post about. I used to post about it because I. That used to help me because then people would be like, it's okay. It's not your fault. And. And the community was always lovely to me because they could understand, but I don't. I don't even need that anymore because I just feel okay. It's like, yeah, I had a little meltdown. Everything's fine. The thing still works. It's like. And Sylvia's like, are you okay this morning? And she's like, you're a bit tired. And I was like, yeah, a little bit tired. And she's like, that's okay. What, you want a coffee? And that's. That's it. You know, that's my meltdown now. It literally lasted like 10 seconds, not 10 days. And then it was fine then. That's. That's the difference.

Simon Scott (61:07)

Yeah, it's. It's a huge difference on your overall well being. I mean, I have, you know, I'm not immune. I. I am a neurodivergent human. I will have meltdowns, but I don't have meltdowns that feel like my life's ending and that no one's gonna like me after this. I get a little bit frustrated. Like, I walk Nana on a field that's near my house. I see people that don't pick up dog poo. Yeah, it annoys the hell. It annoys the hell out of me. And I sometimes have to stop myself staring out of the window and naming and shaming people. I really, really do. But two years ago, I wouldn't have been able to have left that alone. I would have been literally a dog with a bone. And now I am free from it. And it's. It's such a relief.

Jordan James (61:50)

It is. I'm the same when it's like I'm in the gym and there's a little car park just outside the gym, and there's arrows that say, this is the in way and this is the out way. And just.

Simon Scott (62:02)

You think that'd be clear, wouldn't it?

Jordan James (62:04)

Use a big. There's like four arrows. They're huge. There's. And there's even signs that says, do not enter and then enter. And there's just so many people that just go in the out way. So. So. And there's so many BMWs that do it. It's just every BMW, I'm like, you're gonna do it? And I'm on the. I'm on the cross trainer and I'm looking, and every time they do it, I'm just like. And somebody did it while I was outside right in front of Me. And I just know the old me would have been like, what is wrong with you? Like, honestly, I'd not have been pointing at the arrow. Now I just kind of do it in my brain and then I just let it go. Because it's not my car park. If there's an accident, that's their fault. It. I don't. I don't have to give up. It's nothing to do with me. It doesn't matter. So I just. I just ignore it. It annoys me, it frustrates me, but I don't react to it. And that is the huge difference. Because if I had reacted to it, I'd have been misinterpreted as being the aggressor. And I'm like, well, actually I'm just somebody who's telling you what you should already know, which is, don't drive into the out way of a car park, you pillock. But I would have been the problem. So I just let it go now, man.

Simon Scott (63:30)

Proud of you, man. You've come a really long way in the time I've known you.

Jordan James (63:33)

Yeah, same. Same dude. I think. I think. Do you know what? I think we have healed each other.

Simon Scott (63:40)

I.

Jordan James (63:40)

Doing this.

Simon Scott (63:41)

Not. Not to sound soppy, but I think you're right, man. Like doing this and. And sharing our experiences with you, the listener. And it's definitely helped me vocalize a lot of stuff going on in my head and made me feel normal, you know, Like I've never felt normal for a lot of my life. I've always felt odd or weird or dramatic. Drama queen. I've been called before. And talking about my experiences with you and hearing yours and the sort of processing them, it's really just like normalized my everyday experience. And I don't beat the out of myself anymore for just being me. I'm just. I'm just me.

Jordan James (64:19)

That's it. I always say we are normal, but do a divergent people.

Simon Scott (64:23)

For sure. For sure. Well, let's wrap this episode up. If you've been listening on Christmas day, God bless you. That's a very nice thing to do. Leave the kids. Yeah, Tiny Tim. That's me, dad. Every Christmas it is anyway. But no, thank you so much for listening. Drop us a note in the comments. When have you been misinterpreted? Have you had to navigate many of the things that we have? Being overly passionate, being referred to as a drama king queen? I want to hear from you, but if we don't hear from you, have a very merry Christmas. Have a wonderful new year. We will be still doing our thing this time next year. If you Absolutely, yeah. Bye everybody. It happens. Bye everyone.

Jordan James (65:07)

Nightly. Bye.

Simon Scott (65:13)

Thanks for tuning in to the neurodivergent Experience. We hope today's episode sparks something for you, whether it's a new idea, a bit of validation, or just a moment of connection. Remember, new episodes are every week, so be sure to join us for the next one for more conversations and insights into the neurodivergent Experience. If you've enjoyed this podcast, help us grow. You can do that by rating and reviewing this show. Your support makes a huge difference in helping us reach more people who could benefit from these conversations. You can connect with us on social media, find us on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok. Just search for the neurodivergent experience. Thank you again for listening and until next time, take care of yourself. You're not alone in this journey.

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