A (2:32)

What have I been doing, dude, Adulting me. Adults now. I know, but I've, I've. I had an unusual experience, mate. I've never had this before. It got to Friday night and I went, oh, it's the weekend tomorrow. I'm actually looking forward to the weekend because I've worked weekends basically my whole life and I'm now four months into a job where I don't have to work weekends anymore. And on Saturday, I got up and I was like, I am free. I am free of my affliction. I'm finally going to cut the hedge that I've been putting off since I moved in. And I did, like, a little bit of garden and a little bit of tidying them up on there with me little. My little dusty rag. Karis was bringing me a lemonade. I was like, oh, thank you, my lady. I've had, like, a real old sort of adult in weekend. And then I played golf on Sunday, and I shot the best round I've shot this year.

B (3:23)

Oh, what'd you get?

A (3:25)

I shot 80, so I was pretty gassed about that. So that's 10 over. So that's the best round that I've shot this year.

B (3:33)

I've only shot very, very good for an amateur.

A (3:35)

Yeah. So I'm getting there. I really want to break 80 this year. I've only ever done it properly once.

B (3:41)

Being told off by my cat. Sorry.

A (3:43)

No, that's all right.

B (3:45)

He just looks straight at me. I was like, wow. All right, all right, Calm down.

A (3:51)

It's okay. Another thing as well, in my week, Caris really now wants to get a cat. So she's in the, like, deep research.

B (4:00)

There is no other cat other than a Maine coon. Every other cat pales in comparison, and every other cat is basically just a kitten. Maine coons are the absolute. As long as you don't mind the hair. And to be honest, it's not that big of a deal, especially if you've only got a cat.

A (4:15)

Yeah. Your cat's not called Zeus. He's called Zeus.

B (4:21)

King of cats.

A (4:24)

God damn. A big boy.

B (4:27)

Oh, he is. The absolute is. They're so pretty as well, but they're not. They're not the o. They're not the most friendly they can be, but they're. They're very, very autistic. It's very.

A (4:40)

I'm.

B (4:41)

I'm. I'm. You're. I'm on his time rather than he's on my time.

A (4:46)

Yeah. But the thing is, though, is I would kind of like. I've had dogs before and some of the sensory things that come with it and the fact that they go, walk me now, and I'm like, I want to, but I can't. But I can, but I can't.

B (5:03)

It's. It's hard owning a dog, especially when you have pda, which is what we are here to talk about. I would talk about my weekend, but I was Working. And so that was it.

A (5:18)

How was your week? Moving on?

B (5:19)

Yeah, cool. Yeah, I didn't really do much and in the evening, Sylvia and I just watched King of the Hill. That is literally all we are doing at the moment is watching. That is my life now is we are completing all 14 seasons of King.

A (5:34)

Of the good Hank Hill impression. Yet he worked.

B (5:37)

I'll tell you what, I'll tell you what. I tell you what, that boy ain't right.

A (5:45)

Yeah.

B (5:46)

I keep saying that to Ollie, my little dog. That is like.

A (5:50)

The funny thing about PDA is like, take the trash out. No, father, that boy ain't right.

B (5:55)

Yeah. By the way, just spoiler alert, Hank Hill is definitely autistic. I looked at a Reddit feed that was like. No, I just think he's like, you know, he's just really, really anal and I'm like, have you never met an autistic person? Yeah, man, that man has all the tism.

A (6:15)

Yeah, he's a top tier tism.

B (6:16)

He's a traumatized tism. Anyway, yeah, aren't we all? We are indeed.

A (6:22)

Yeah, aren't we all?

B (6:24)

I can definitely relate to Hank Hill. So, yeah, we're talking about pda. That's pathological demand avoidance, that mystical thing that according to the nhs, does not exist, but we all know it bloody does. Now I prefer the idea of it being called rather than a pathological demand avoidance. It's an obsessive need of autonomy. So I, I have this need for autonomy where I need to feel in control, but at the same time, so often because of it, I am completely out of control. What pathological demand avoidance is, is it's thought to be primarily driven by anxiety and the need for control rather than intentional defiance. Individuals with PDA experience intense anxiety in response to demands leading to extreme avoidance behaviors. This avoidance is not a choice, but a compulsion often triggered by both external requests and internal needs like hunger or thirst. While anxiety is a key factor, the exact causes of PDA are still being researched with potential links to trauma, attachment difficulties and other co occurring conditions. Now that's what the research says, which I'm pretty impressed with because it's, it's, yeah, it's pretty spot on. So I, I think we, we, we, we've agreed that we're gonna, we're gonna talk about what, what causes it for you. Like if I just gave you an example of just like any adulting thing. So I just say like, okay, so you, you need to empty the dishwasher. What, what's happening in your mind?

A (8:20)

Honestly, it's like a little force field has just hit my face. That's what it feels like. It's like, oh, I don't think I want to do that. And it's not like, oh, I don't think I want to do it. It's. How can I now convince myself that I shouldn't do it? I genuinely feel that force field just, like, go, thump. It's like a glass door just hit my face. I went, oh, don't want to do that now. What? And I just sort of like, freeze. And I know I can do the dishwasher. And you know what? I actually quite enjoy doing the dishwasher. But right now I'm talking to you, and I'm having a fun time with my buddy over the little screen, and we're doing our podcast, and I don't want to empty the dishwasher, and now I don't want to leave my seat. And I'm kind of frozen a little bit, if I'm honest. That's how it feels. I feel like I've just been sort of like a big butterfly nets just gone over me, and it's gone. Right. We're not doing anything now, and it's not even the dishwasher. I'm now suddenly going, not only do I not want to do the dishwasher, if I move, then I have to do it, so I'm not gonna move. And I can almost feel my dinosaur hands kicking in of going, oh, no, I don't want to do that. And I feel a little bit. Sort of a bit tight. It's literally like an instant thing. It was like you just flicked a switch by asking me to do that. And I went, oh, no, I don't.

B (9:41)

Think I will if I ask you in a different way. So if. If we're. We're living together and I can see the dishwasher needs doing, but I'm on my way out as, oh, oh, damn. I didn't have time to do the dishwasher. And. And, you know, oh, we haven't got any place. It just. We just need to empty it. Do you think. Do you think there's a. There's a possibility that you. That you. That you could help me out?

A (10:09)

I'm free. Yeah, of course I'll help you. I'm free.

B (10:14)

If you could. If you could just help me out with the dishwasher, that. That would be so cool. Like, if. If you don't have the time, then I'll do it when I get back.

A (10:21)

No, no, I'll do It right now.

B (10:23)

There you go in that mad. Because it's not a demand, it's not a task, it's a request at your leisure. It's, it's asking for a favor. It's it. Which is very, very different. Now, that doesn't mean that I'm automatically going to be like, sure, no problem. Because a lot of the times I'll be like, yeah, yeah, I can do that. And then I'll forget adhd. I was definitely going to do something today.

A (10:55)

There's no obstac on the way then.

B (10:58)

And now, now I'm out flying a kite. I don't even know how I got here. I don't know what happened. I don't know where my day went. And now it's 7pm and now I've fallen asleep. Yeah, life is just very, very strange when you are neurodivergent. Yeah, yeah, it's, it's really interesting because it is, it is that straight away, it's that lock brain that if, if you ask me to do a task or someone tells me to do a task, it's like my instant reaction is just no, and I don't want it to be no. And the worst thing is that there's my instant reaction to my own task. I go, okay, I need to go and clean my teeth. And I go, but that means I've got to do this, then I've got to do this, then I've got to do that, then I've got to do that, then I've got to do this and then I've got to do that. And, and my brain will turn that molehill into a mountain. It will just automatically, subconsciously, without me even wanting it to, it will just immediately become the most difficult thing I've ever challenged myself to do. And I've climbed mountains, but I wanted to climb mountain. I, I chose to climb mountain. But even when I give myself a task that isn't something I particularly want to do, but it's something I need to do, my brain just automatically denies it. It's no, that is not what you want to do. So there's that, that part of my brain that just really, really hates doing anything that I'm not enjoying. And that definitely comes from the baby brain, dude. It definitely comes from that part of my synaptic pathways that are just still there that says, I just want to be entertained. Anything that might bore me, anything that I might find too challenging. So the anxiety kicks in, the boredom kicks in, the overthinking, the catastrophizing kicks in and every aspect of that demand becomes intensely more difficult for me to get my head around. And this all happens in a click, like a flash, just like that. And most of the time I can get through it. But it is. It is so weird how it just happens.

A (13:53)

You know what it makes me think of? And I've got this sort of, like, written in my notes. Have you ever read a book that you're really enjoying? Like, really, really enjoying and.

B (14:03)

Yeah, it's called the Autistic Experience. It's by.

A (14:09)

Nice book. But you know that feeling of when you pick up a book and you're into the story and you're really enjoying it and the chapters just fly, you know? Yeah.

B (14:19)

There's another book is a little different from the rest.

A (14:26)

There is that feeling, isn't there, of the page burner and you can't. You can't put it down. Now. I have an opposite sort of feeling with books where, say it's like, oh, you have to read this book for university or for school. You cannot write your essay unless you've read the book. And I'm looking at a chapter, and then suddenly you're checking a few pages in front to see when the next chapter is. And then you're looking at the rest of the book and you see that big wedge of pages and you're like, oh, off. Yeah, that is pda. That's what it feels like. It's that. Oh, look at all that. Oh, bugger that. I'm not doing that.

B (15:05)

It's the idea that you've got to read it and remember absolutely every single in that book. Right. Even as I'm saying it, it makes my tummy feel funny.

A (15:15)

Yeah. I feel on edge even talking about it. I feel slightly on edge.

B (15:19)

Do you always feel like. Like whatever. Someone's gonna tell you, you have a fear of failing at it as well.

A (15:25)

Oh, dude, that is the. That's the big one for me.

B (15:28)

I'm definitely not gonna do this properly and someone's gonna be annoyed at me because I didn't do it.

A (15:32)

I would. I would rather be told off for not doing it than being embarrassed at doing it wrong.

B (15:37)

Yeah. God, that. Yeah, that. That is definitely the trauma side of it. Yo, dude, people have been bloody mean to us for us to end up like that.

A (15:47)

Oh, God, there's. There's. There's so much like. It even makes me think of, like, I was talking about doing the garden this weekend. I got up and I just did it. I just got on with it because I Was like, oh, I want to do it. But I have made every excuse under the sun not to do it to the point of. I was like, oh, it's too hot. The hedge will burn if I cut it off. Why am I telling my son that? I'm like, it'll be soggy. Like, some of the, like, the mental gymnastics that I've put through myself to kind of do it. And then one day I just woke up and went, today is the day. I am. I am welcome to do it. But, dude, if my. If I was playing a video game at home and it's a Saturday, and then my dad comes up to me and goes, could you cut the grass for me? Like, right now?

B (16:32)

Yeah, good luck.

A (16:35)

But the argument that used to happen because of it, and even to the point of we're going one step further. Yeah, I go and cut the grass for my dad, and I hate every second of it. Even though I like cutting the grass. I hated every second of it because he told me to. And then later that night, I won't go to bed when I meant to go to bed because I want the hour that I lost on my game, cutting the grass. So then it's almost like I have, like, revenge time of going, Well, I missed out on the thing that I really wanted to do, and I'm gonna get back up myself, but now I'm not gonna sleep. And I'm having PDA over sleeping because I know I have to, but I want to play my game because I did earlier. And it all just sort of loops it. Just like, if I think I've got it, I think it's gone, but it hasn't gone. It'll get revenge on me later in the day. I just have these sorts of. It's never not there. You know, it's like, if it'll. It'll go away for a little bit, and then it'll rear its head. It'll go, remember that thing that you wanted to do that you didn't get to do? We want to do it now, so put your tea down and go and play your game.

B (17:39)

It's. Yeah, it's embarrassingly crippling. I mean, it is my main disability because it affects every aspect of my life. So a lot of my other disabilities, physical, mental disabilities, they affect certain things in my life at certain points in time, depending on, you know, where I am, what I'm doing. But I feel that PDA just. It's. It's like a shadow that just follows me around constantly. It's always there. It's always bothering me is always stopping things just being easy breezy. Nothing I do is easy breezy. Everything seems to be a challenge to get over this hurdle. So everyone is literally running down a track going, oh, I've got to do this today and I've got to do that today. And they're just running and occasionally they might trip or occasionally they might have to jump over, you know, a small hurdle. I feel like I'm just doing the hurdles is one after another after another after another, like everything. So the only time I feel fully relaxed, fully like I'm. I can just. PDA is not following me around is. Is when I'm on, like, they're all inclusive tropical breaks, like we're in Mauritius or when we went to Zero expectation and grand scenario. Yeah, we get out of bed, we. Everything, like breakfast is there, it's all done for us and we just laze around, maybe go swimming, maybe walk around the town if we feel like it. There's no expectation, there's no demands. There's just do whatever you want. You basically, you're pampered and you're looked after like you're a little kid. And that's. That's when I'm the most happy, is when I'm just being a little kid where I don't have any adults telling me what to do. And I don't. And the worst thing is, is that when I'm telling myself what to do, I'm the adult telling my inner child what to do. My inner child who has the PDA is the one that's. That's going against adult me. So I'm constantly in a battle between my child and my adult self of, do you really want to do that? And I'm like, yeah, I. And I'll give you a quick example before we go for a break. Literally, my side table in my bedroom, I've. I've done it really nicely. So I've got my. I've got a Halo sword lamp, which is full size. So cool. I've got a Pennywise doll, which is creepy and awesome. And then. And he's got these. He's got these weird creepy hands. And in between his creepy hands, I've got a Georgie Pop character. So it's like this doll is like holding Georgie's head and next to it, I've got my Halo Master Chief helmet with a tiny little Cortana thing. And it's. It's cool. And I promise myself I'm going to keep this clean because I love it. Because I've never, never been able to keep my side table clean. It's always had mess and stuff on it and it, it's clean as in tidy. But my God, the dust, dude, the dust collects. So I'm like, I want to clean this. I'm so proud of it. I like it so much. I love looking at it. I put it together. That's my stuff. I want to clean it. A week, a week has gone by and I'm like, why have I not done this? Why have I not just done it? And I'm annoyed at myself. And while I was at work, Sylvia messaged me saying, oh, don't worry about your table, I've done it. And I was like, oh, why?

A (21:47)

Like I like I to do that.

B (21:51)

I can't be annoyed because it's really sweet because I know she knows I struggle, but at the same time, I really wanted to do that because I wanted to get the sense of achievement, because the sense of achievement that I get just from doing a day to day task that I have got over this PDF. I'm the winner. And especially that one. It was bothering me for a week and I'm like, I'm the winner. I've done it. It's like beating a final boss on the hardest video game you've ever played. You're just like, yes, I did it. And that was. My final boss was just cleaning my bedside table and Sylvia took it from me.

A (22:34)

Overwrote, you say? Even started again.

B (22:37)

Yeah. Oh, God, yes. She completed the boss for me and was like, oh, I just thought I'd do that thing for you. And I'm like, that was so sweet. But, you know, but yeah, she, she is very, very sweet. Or she's very ocd, which is also true. She does have oc. So me not cleaning it was, is. I don't know, because it could come across as, oh, you were just leaving it until you know that your wife is going to clean it for you.

A (23:04)

And that's the trauma talking to you. That's somebody else's voice.

B (23:07)

Exactly. No one in the world's knowing except all the people listening to this podcast. Oh, no, my secret is out. I just, I sit around just doing nothing until my wife does everything for me. Not true. It's, it's just so difficult. And, and I just, I wish people could, could understand it. But I guess that's, that's why I'm hoping enough people will listen to this and, and share this and tell other people about it. Because this is the reality of having this pathological demand avoidance, it's crippling, dude.

A (23:45)

Yeah, it absolutely is. And I know you don't want to, but I'm going to take us to a break now. This episode of the Neurodivergent Experience is brought to you by RTN Mental Health Solutions. With up to a five year waiting list for autism and ADHD assessments via the nhs. And that's even if you get a referral from your gp. Getting an assessment in the UK has never been harder. So if you're like me and can't wait anymore, going private may be the best option for you. RTN offers online assessments for kids age 6, right up to adults. To make it more accessible, RTN can offer payment plans up to five months. You can access their remote services from the comfort of your home anywhere in the uk. And RTN offers group and one to one counseling, a private route to access ADHD medication following the assessment and will even fight for you if your GP doesn't accept the results. So if you live in the UK and can't wait to get an assessment, go to www.rtnmentalhealthsolutions.com and use the discount code RTN23, making it even more affordable for all of our listeners to get an autism and ADHD assessment. Welcome back to the Neurodivergent Experience. Simon Scott here as always with partner in crime, Mr. Jordan James.

B (25:16)

No, I don't want to do it anymore.

A (25:18)

We don't want to do it anymore. We said we will, so we're here. You're all welcome. So our experiences with pda, we've discussed a couple here, but there are some simple. It's so simple, but I was thinking about this when we were discussing sort of putting this episode together, about how it affects, like, everyday life, right? I have to tell myself to go to the toilet every day. Like, I will hold myself to bursting point.

B (25:54)

So, so relatable every day.

A (25:57)

Like I, I will not go for a tinkle until I'm literally nearly piddling myself.

B (26:03)

Oh, I've nearly, I've nearly crapped myself. And I get to that point where I'm literally squeezing my cheeks together on the way to the toilet because I leave it to the very last second sometimes.

A (26:14)

And, and that's so such a simple thing you would think, right? But it really isn't. And it goes deeper than that. I can be sat here and I'm doing a little bit of work and I go, oh, I've left lunch a little bit late today, I'll just finish this little Bit of work that I'm doing, dude.

B (26:32)

It's like we have the same brain.

A (26:34)

Just finish this little bit of work. I'll just finish this.

B (26:37)

Yeah, I'll just do this next bit. I'll just do this next bit.

A (26:40)

I'll just do the next mission. I'll just do the next time you finish.

B (26:44)

It's like 4 o' clock and you just.

A (26:46)

Your stomach's eating itself, babe.

B (26:50)

Where did you. Oh. So many times Sylvie's walked through the door and I'm like, where the hell did you come from?

A (26:55)

She's like, why have you not eaten lunch? And you go, my tummy.

B (27:00)

I was in the middle of a game.

A (27:02)

Yeah. Six hours ago. Yeah. Oh. So they're like just little things. But another thing that I keep doing, and Carrie said it to me this morning and I felt that the. The, like the sting of shame a little bit and a little bit embarrassed. And I had to tell myself that that's just. That's the trauma, man. But it's not me. And I hate washing my car. I hate washing my car.

B (27:31)

I don't wash my car. I. I have. I pay other people to wash my.

A (27:35)

Car, but I don't take it to other people to wash my car either.

B (27:40)

No. I also don't do that until Sylvia's like, you have to do it. You have this. I don't like going through the car wash thing either, because then I have to queue and then I have to wait and.

A (27:52)

And sometimes it doesn't work.

B (27:54)

Just the. Even the idea. Even though it's really super easy and they do a really good job. The. Just the idea of that. Even. Even though I'm already going there to go to the gym, because there's a car wash right next to my gym and I'm already going there, but the idea of me doing it. So the best thing for me to do is get to this because. Because there's a. A hand car wash right next to the garage, which is the automatic one. So I'd rather go. And I pay more, almost double. Oh. Just to have someone wash it. And then I go in, go to the gym or go shopping. I'll come out and it's done. So someone else has done it. That I can just about manage.

A (28:38)

But I also don't like that really awkward moment where you're sat in your own car and somebody's cleaning it. Because I'm like, I could have just done this.

B (28:48)

No, because they do it while I'm in the shop.

A (28:50)

See? But I'll see. That's why. Maybe that's why what I need. But it's that thing of me sitting in the car and then I go, well, I could have just done this. Why am I getting somebody else to do it? And then I'm almost sat there looking at the bloke going, sorry, no, I.

B (29:03)

Feel so awkward watching someone wash my car.

A (29:06)

Sorry about that.

B (29:07)

I get, I get a whip and just get on with it. I'm paying you for this.

A (29:14)

Faster, boss man, faster.

B (29:17)

Jesus.

A (29:19)

Genuinely, I think it all comes down from. There used to be so many Saturdays when I was home from school where my dad would be like, can you wash the car, son?

B (29:30)

Oh, God.

A (29:31)

I used to drag my feet. It used to get to the point where you just be like, fine, I'll do it. And then I'm like, no, no, I can do it. I can't do it, I can't. I can do it.

B (29:37)

I do it for money. Like, if, if anyone ever asked me to wash a car, I'd be like, yeah, all right. Fiverr.

A (29:43)

Oh, you're cheap.

B (29:44)

Yeah, but I mean, that was when I was like 10. So 34 years ago, technically that would.

A (29:49)

Have been like four shillings and six piece.

B (29:51)

But that's like 45 quid now.

A (29:54)

Yeah, just buy a new car. But, yeah, little. So it's like almost like little things like that. And it always seems to come back to not wanting to sort of like be told off. It's like, even like, I remember homework. I used to come home from school and blow. You've got to do homework. And my brain. And I, I've had, I had arguments with my parents about this. I was like, I've been at school all day, why do I now need to come home and do more schoolwork? They go, oh, but you have to, to kind of. And I'm like, then why am I at school all day if I'm then going to come home? And I said, do you come home from work and keep doing work? Dad was like, sometimes I'm not talking to you.

B (30:38)

With logic.

A (30:39)

But that makes all sorts of things. I, I, I, I implore anybody, right? You were saying at the beginning of the show, the NHS doesn't recognize pda. I implore anybody to try and understand this as it's everything. It's not like, oh, I get PDA on xyz, it's everything. It's my alarm goes off in the morning. Get out of bed.

B (31:08)

No, no.

A (31:09)

2, you need to clean your teeth. No, no, you need to gel your hair. You need to get a haircut you need to trim your beard. You need to go and get your eyes tested. You need to go and get that weird thing that you've not definitely been to the doctors about checked. Is everything.

B (31:25)

Oh, the doctor thing, dude, this I know. So. Including myself. So many neurodivergent people and that. And they make it even more difficult nowadays because they try and streamline it by saying, oh, yeah, you can book online. And I'm like, right, you do know that that will never flipping happen. I just got used to ringing and now. And now you're putting a whole new thing for me to get over. Like, I have to. Oh, my God. Like, are you. People do not understand. Like, just be having to ring someone, like, okay, so you. Your. Your phone contract some. They. They've overcharged you, right? You've been overcharged. You've been charged for something you didn't want. You need to ring them to get that money back. So you're not ringing them for a favor. You're not ringing. You need that money back. They've overcharged you by 50 quid.

A (32:24)

That's.

B (32:25)

That's a good chunk of change. And you're like, what the hell? I need to ring them, dude. That should be the simplest thing that should be straight on the phone. I'm ringing you up. As soon as I've got a spare moment, I'm finding out what happened to my 50 quid. If it was that easy, if there. If there was no pda, if PDA is a myth and we're just making up as we go along, that phone call is made immediately. And the only thing that my PDFX is me doing chores because, you know, I'm a lazy dick and it's just not the case. It's for me. It's my money. It's money I earned. It's money for my family. It's my money and they've taken it. My sense of justice alone should override the PDA of like, I need my money back. But it's not that I don't do it. It's the amount of energy. The amount of energy it takes to just make that phone call is insane.

A (33:27)

And then the bastards put you on hold.

B (33:30)

Oh, don't even go. There.

A (33:34)

Is the sound of fucking hell for me, dude. I will die and I'll just hear that music and I'm like, oh, no, I'm going the wrong way. Me.

B (33:41)

You are 70th in the queue.

A (33:46)

Dude. I had a text from my doctor the other day, right? I've moved house, moved out of the old area. And it goes, you have 30 days to contact your new GP and get signed up. How many days left did I have until I did it?

B (33:59)

Jordan, on the day, the last day, on the day. Procrastination, dude, that is the only ultimate thing for, for all of us. If someone says it needs to be in by the 12th, it is getting done. It is getting done and then sent off on the 12th at 11:59, like just by the very end of the day.

A (34:24)

But the thing is, is we'll do a great job, but it will be near the, the deadline. Like, I. Sometimes I thrive off a deadline. Knowing I've got a deadline actually makes me go, oh, I haven't got a lot of time, I need to get going on it. But if somebody says to me, oh, you've got six months, just get it in when it goes, when it's done, I'm in danger, that's not gonna go well.

B (34:46)

I keep saying to people, if you want me to do something, don't, don't give me a long period of time. If you want it, give me a short period of time for it to get it done. And especially when people are like, oh, yeah, could you do that thing? But, you know, if you don't get it done, it's fine. And I'm like, well, then I won't get it done then, because you've just told me that it's fine. And then I'll just feel guilty enough. And I literally had this, literally yesterday is with a friend of mine. He wanted me to. He's doing a photography degree and he wanted me to review his work. So as a photographer, I peer review his work and his project for his final hand in. And I, he was, I need it by the 14th. And I did it, I did it last night. I did it last night because I was like, I'm. I'm gonna make sure that I at least get it done at least a day before. Two days before.

A (35:57)

We're recording on the 13th.

B (35:58)

Yeah, yeah. Yes. It's not past the dead. We're all good.

A (36:03)

Looking down the barrel of the deadline.

B (36:05)

Yeah, you should know. You should just be soothsayers. And it's interesting because he told me this like a month and a half ago. And I'm doing it like a day, two days before he has to hand it in. So it's not even that I was meant to give it to him by. That is, that's the day he's got to hand it in. So I've got to give it to him, and then he's got to go through it and. And make sure I, you know, my spelling's correct, which I guarantee it's not. So I did it last night, and I got to a point where I was like. And I think I did a really good job, to be honest. It's. It's just. It's so annoying because it's like a train. I feel like it's like a big, heavy steam train. Every time I want to do something, it just takes so much energy just to get going. But once I get going, going, I'm in the groove and I'm fine. I'm absolutely cruising.

A (37:07)

Do you find with your pda, though, just using the sort of steam train analogy? Once I get going, PDA will then kick in and I can't stop. It's like once I get into a rhythm of it and I get going, I start doing too much. It's like on Saturday, I start doing the hedge, but then, oh, I need to do the grass as well. And then I need to do this, and I need to do this, and I need to do this. And then Caris goes, oh, we're going out at 2. You haven't got time to finish it all. I was like, oh, no. And then just getting paralysis by analysis because once I've started, it's like almost going, oh, I want to move the furniture around in this room. And then you move one piece and then you go, oh, but I need to hoover under there. And by almost doing completing a task, other tasks reveal themselves. And once you. Once the rhythm's going, once there's steam in the train and there's loads of coal in there and the engine's hot, you've got to wait for it to cool down again. Like, that's something that I really struggle with because once I get through pda, I almost get into a rhythm and the PDA goes, well, we're doing this now. You wanted to do it, you're doing it. And, yeah, deviate away. It's.

B (38:13)

Yeah, yeah, just. It's almost like trying to stop the train, but just like an immediate stop. If it's going so fast, you've got to give it time to slow down. Nothing breaks immediately. And, yeah, you, you, you. You're spot on with that. It's. It is like, well, once I'm in it, and then another demand comes up, and then my PDA that I've got over is now being affected because of new pda. Because every single thing that we do is going to be Governed by pda. It's gonna be overlooked by pda.

A (38:54)

It's like a health and safety officer or something, isn't it? It's like literally there with its clipboard going, well, have you done this? Or. You can't do that until you've checked this. And you can't do that until you've done that.

B (39:04)

And, well, that's the problem, being the modern Homo sapien is the fact that back in the day where we evolved, we didn't really have a lot to do. So it was like, well, if you don't do this, you'll probably die. So you just gotta go on with it. And now because. Because we have so many things to do during the day. Even if it's like, I've got my day off and it's just day to day tasks like putting your socks on or, you know, putting your clothes away. At the end of the day, you get changed, you got. And my clothes will end up on the floor or they'll end up being thrown in the cupboard. And I'm. I love mine. Very, very neat cupboard. Everything's hung up. All my jerseys are in a row, my hoodies are in a row. I've got Jordan T shirts here, I've got turtle T shirts here, I've got super dry T shirt. Everything is in order. But in order to get to that point, you have no idea the brain Olympics that I have to go through just to get to the point where I put a T shirt, put a, get a T shirt, put a hanger in it and hang it. That should be the easiest thing, dude, but it's not.

A (40:21)

And the cruelest thing about it as well is once you've done it, your brain goes, well, that was easy, wasn't it?

B (40:29)

Yeah, like, like, literally the amount of times I will lambast myself for being lazy, calling myself lazy.

A (40:37)

Yeah.

B (40:38)

I swear to God, if anybody calls me lazy, you crush me. It crushes me because I'm like, yeah. Oh, God, I'm rubbish. I'm pathetic.

A (40:49)

And I'm like, yeah, because when, when you tell it yourself, it becomes real, doesn't it? And that's just the.

B (40:55)

Yeah, well, it's crazy. I've got a full time job. I'm a full time dad, I'm a full time husband, I'm a full time advocate. We do this as well. And this is, this, this is for awareness. This is the. This is not our job. Podcasting is. I mean, it's your job, but you do other podcasts. You, you don't make your Money from this podcast. You make your money from doing other things. We do this because we want to, because. But even this, I will get days where I'm like, dude, if I didn't.

A (41:28)

Have you to do this with, I'll do.

B (41:31)

I'd give up long ago.

A (41:31)

Give up a long time ago. A long, long, long time.

B (41:34)

We keep each other going. We. We are. Because. Because of our friendship and because you are literally, I. I've got, like, you. You are in my top 5 of people. Like, thank you. 5 of people.

A (41:51)

Yeah, nearly on the podium.

B (41:56)

And don't. Don't ask which kid is bronze, because it depends on which one's done. It's like. It's like it depends which one did the dishwasher, but. Oh, God, it's. It's. It's crazy that if it. If it wasn't. If it wasn't for other people, I. I think that I'd be pretty bloody useless. But, yeah, getting back to the. The doctor thing is that I know so many autistic people who have got serious issues, like, serious issues. And. And I'm like, just go the doctor. So I've got a mate of mine, and I know you're listening, dude, who has had a problem with his knee for years, and I'm talking at least four to five years.

A (42:48)

Four years too long, isn't it?

B (42:49)

The doctor is. Is just down the road from him. It's really not far. He has a car. He can just go to the doctor.

A (42:58)

I'm in solidarity with you, bro, whoever's listening, but, oh, my man.

B (43:02)

And I can't say I'm any better when it comes to certain things. I will try everything I can to fix myself before I end up going to the doctor. But, dude, go to the doctor. It's a problem. You need to go to the doctor.

A (43:17)

He's listening to this somewhere.

B (43:20)

I know, I know he listens. He's one of my best mates and. And I know he's listening and you just go to the doctor, dude. But, yeah, it's. It's crazy. It's like I've got another mate not listening, so I can say whatever I like.

A (43:34)

And until he tunes in, he said.

B (43:37)

Oh, good, this is about me. I'm sure I've talked about it before. It's like he had the same pair of glasses for six years because he and his eyes were getting worse and worse and worse, and he didn't want to go to. To the opticians because. Because it means he had to go and get his eyes tested. So just that simple thing of getting your eyes tested and then getting a new prescription because it has to be updated every two years. He said he was just sitting there suffering with, like, itchy eyes and tired eyes because his prescription wasn't strong enough anymore, that he would suffer through it rather than just book an appointment at Boots or wherever it is. And I don't get angry at them, I don't get annoyed at them. My heart just.

A (44:34)

You just want to help breaks.

B (44:36)

Yeah, because I know, I just feel that because I've done that so many times, but it's detrimental to our health. It doesn't just make things harder. It can literally, and I say this in the most serious way, it can kill us. Because what if you had a pain in your side or a pain in your back or a lump or something like that and you're like, no, I just put it off. But what if that is cancer? What if that is cancer and the PDA is putting you off calling a doctor because trying to get out of a doctor nowadays is like trying to find the holy grail. It's, it's. It's so insane as the bridge keeper.

A (45:30)

Blimey.

B (45:30)

Yes. It's so insanely difficult to get an appointment for. For, for an average person, let alone somebody who. And I don't use this word lightly because I don't like it, but I. Suffering. Suffering with pda, because that. That could kill us one day.

A (45:51)

It really could. And there are so many, you know, talking about it as like a 3D spectrum of PDA. Right. There are so many things that are constantly having to fight through and it can go from life threatening to just an inconvenience, but it affects everything on that scale. It really does. And like you were saying, there's certain things that I should probably have just dealt with. It's like I've got this thing with my bloody gas bill. They keep messing me around with my account and thinking. It's like, what you've got to do is ring us. And then when I did ring him and I was, I was on the phone for an hour and it never got dealt with. My brain's going, we're never doing that again. Oh, dude. I'll give you an example before we go to the break, because I needed Caris's help through this moment. The new Liverpool kit came out. I was gassed. It's made by Adidas, which is the brand I like the most out of sportswear and, and was so excited to get it. It's nostalgic. It reminds me of one that had when I was younger. So excited. So I went to the shop. Didn't only just buy myself the home one, bought myself the away one. I was like, I'm gonna get a number on the back. I'm gonna get the Champions League patches. You know, in my special interest, I'm steaming on in the queue. I'm so excited. We had to queue to get into the shop. And before I got there, Caris was like, I'm not. I'm not queuing to go into a shop. I'm not queuing to go into a shop. Her PDA kicked in. I was like, but this is, like, the only reason that I've come out today. I really, really want to do this. So we had to do a lap of the shopping center. And eventually she was like, no, you're right. This is why we're here. Let's go in the queue. It'll only be a moment. Flew through it, got into the shop, picked up everything, got in another queue. So we're both there, like, all right, we're excited, but this is. This is taking a little while. Got to the counter, paid for the kits, paid for the. The badges and everything. And the guy went, the number that you want is sold out, so you'll have to come back and get it. PDA's already kicked in. I pay for it. I go, I'll just get the patches, mate. I'll do this. I pay for it. And he goes, all right, mate, if you come back in two and a half hours, your kit will be ready. And hands me a raffle ticket. Oh, what? And we were both left the shop and we were like. I was so annoyed with myself. I got so frustrated with myself. But I wanted. I wanted to make a thing of it.

B (48:23)

Yeah, it was special. I mean, Liverpool have only ever won one championship.

A (48:33)

You mother. I'm gonna take a break.

B (48:41)

Firewood. Firewood can. Can be. Can be expensive. See you in a minute.

A (48:54)

Only. Boost Mobile. Boost Mobile will give you a free year of service. Free year when you buy a new 5G phone.

B (49:00)

New 5G phone.

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Enough.

B (49:01)

But I'm your hype man.

A (49:02)

When you purchase an eligible device, you get $25 off every month for 12 months with credits totaling one year of free service. Taxes extra for the device and service plan online only. Have you ever felt stuck in patterns that don't serve you, struggled with stress or wanted to connect more deeply with yourself? Then I have to introd you to a friend of the podcast. Ashley Bentley of integrated coaching, breath work and hypnotherapy Ashley is a highly experienced clinical hypnotherapist and coach specializing in working with neurodivergent minds. Through a unique blend of integrative coaching, breath work and hypnotherapy, Ashley helps people rewire subconscious patterns, regulate their nervous systems, step into more empowered versions of themselves. Whether you're dealing with addiction, anxiety, burnout or struggles with self acceptance, Ashley offers practical and science backed tools tailored just for you. Her unique methods combine neuroscience, storytelling, subconscious transformation to create real, lasting change. Jordan and I can personally attest to the profound and transformative effects of her sessions which have been life changing. She does all of these sessions online, meaning she can work with you no matter where you are in the world. If you're ready to break free from old patterns and start living with more clarity, confidence and connection, go to Bit ly Ashleynde to book a free consultation or learn more. Welcome back, back to the Neurodivergent Experience. Simon Scott here as always with Mr. Jordan James. And we've been talking about PDA. Do you want to keep talking about it, Jordan?

B (50:48)

No.

A (50:49)

All right, well, thank you for listening.

B (50:51)

Bye everybody.

A (50:52)

Well, we were going to try and talk about in this section things that sort of help us and I can definitely say having somebody who understands me has been the absolute game changer. Having my partner sort of, you know, put things into place and be accommodating has helped me so, so much, so, so much. Even if it's just sending me a little text going, don't forget there's washing in the washing machine. Loads of love hearts. That is so much more helpful than her just going, by the way, you need to empty the dishwasher or you need to just do the washing machine today. Yeah, like buttering me up really, really helps.

B (51:36)

Yeah, it, it is, it is so often about the way we're told rather than the demand itself. You know, so I, and, and I guess it just, it also depends as well because if, if you try and make so if, if you've got a kid, so all the parents out there, if you got a kid, it's pda, which is pretty much most kids in general don't want to do the things you tell them, let alone a neurodivergent kid with PDA, then that's like 10 times more difficult is you've got to incentivize them with dopamine. You've got to make whatever they're going to do fun. And I do believe that like a reason, one of the many, many reasons we struggle with food is because of pda. So I, I've got another mate who's like, oh, I don't eat fruit or veg. And you're like, what do you mean you don't eat fruit or vet like any. No. He's like, no, I don't eat fruit or veg. This man, the Chisholm. The Chisholm is strong in this man.

A (52:44)

Crisps. Crisps, Nuggets.

B (52:46)

Oh God, dude. Because he got. I don't eat mushrooms. I'm like, that is neither a fruit or a veggie. So that is a fun guy. He was great at parties. And there's a, there's a lot of room for mushrooms. And I know dad jokes and if so his, his partner slices them up really, really thin and puts them in like bolognese and stuff like that.

A (53:17)

The old secret food.

B (53:18)

Secret food. It's like you don't know what you're getting, but you are getting it. It's really interesting because he's like, oh no, I don't eat tomatoes. I'm like, but you're eating tomato ketchup. And he's like, yeah.

A (53:29)

His brain just goes, what is that made of whole?

B (53:36)

But yeah, it's, it is, it is strange to me because obviously there are many, many reasons why, why we don't eat certain foods, but just to sort of blankly go, I don't eat any fruit or veg. That to me is more like the analogy side of being autistic. Of like I've made that decision and that's it. But that is definitely PDA as well. That, that and, and again, driven by anxiety, driven by trauma, all these things can be associated to the like food when you're a kid. The worry, the, the worry about the textures, it all comes down to your brain going, and that demand avoidance. Go, I'm not eating that. I'm just not eating that. So you know, pda, it literally affects that what we eat. It just, it affects everything. And I can't, I can't emphasize this enough. So if you make food fun or if you make a task fun, if you make something fun and give rewards rather than punishments for not doing things, make it a reward based system. I don't mean moddy coddle them and, and things, you know, you've got to set boundaries. But when it comes, when it comes to chores, when it comes to doing things around the house, when it comes to brushing your teeth, things like this, we have to make accommodations for neurodivergent kids because of pda. We, we have to do it. And it's. I will make accommodations for myself when it comes, like cleaning my teeth. Because one thing I don't like is there's certain toothpastes which just make my. My tongue feel weird. They just make.

A (55:12)

I don't like the sandy ones.

B (55:14)

Yeah. So I, I make sure. And. And I, I do this a lot. I buy the, The.

A (55:21)

The.

B (55:21)

The flavored toothpaste.

A (55:24)

Tasmanian devil.

B (55:27)

Make it fun. Make it fun. Now I don't have that all the time. A lot of the time I'm. I'm feeling like, yeah, I can just. I can just have the mint toothpaste if Sylvia's bought the nice mint toothpaste. But I don't really get involved in buying toothpaste. I. I probably should. I should probably buy my own toothpaste. But a lot of the time, you know, because Sylvia works in town, so she just popped the shop next to and just grab some toothpaste. She's a dental nurse, so she also gets free samples.

A (55:53)

She got the hookup.

B (55:54)

Yeah, she's got the hookup. The free samples. And. Yeah, it's, you know, so it's. It's. It's just about making those accommodations for my brain to not feel like the. The task is. Is a waste of time or it's. It's like the amount of effort that I'm gonna put into it is. It's not gonna pay off, you know, because like I said, it is a huge. Everything is a huge effort. It's like, no wonder we're so knackered all the time. No wonder we have meltdowns. No wonder we're so fed up and tired, because everything is a huge task. But if. If we can make those tasks have a reward it. And it's not spoiling it like that. That. Because. Because there is that line we say, okay, so going. Going to the supermarket.

A (56:53)

Oh, this is what I was gonna say. Yeah.

B (56:55)

Horrific is a horrific thing, especially when you're a little neurodivergent kid. So you. You can put things in place. You can headphones and. And, you know, make something fun.

A (57:07)

Sunglasses were the game changer for me in supermarkets.

B (57:10)

Yeah. Big time. Yeah. But you can just say, look, you. You can have a toy. Just a little toy. Each time we go, we have a little toy. So if you can't afford that and it gets, you know, you're on a really tight budget, then make it something else.

A (57:27)

Comics were the one for me, mate.

B (57:29)

Yeah. Oh, God.

A (57:30)

Were the one that got me, like, I used to get a match magazine which was, like, about football. So it was my special interest.

B (57:35)

Yeah, I used to get that and.

A (57:36)

Sort of, like, tie it all together. And one of the big game changers for me is getting the food boxes. Like a hello Fresh or Gusto or other. Other products are available. But getting something like that that goes, I would like to make a really nice, you know, chicken parmesan with a salad and this. You tell me to go to the supermarket, buy those items and bring it back. I will forget something. I will have a horrible time, and then I won't want to cook it when I get home. But having it delivered to my door in a box with all of the ingredients measured out exactly how I need them, and I can just throw it all away when I'm done has been a game changer. Like, taking the shame and the embarrassment out of my limitations has really, really helped me with pda. Like, really, really helped me. I struggle going into the supermarket, so my partner will go with me and she will walk me in a specific sort of way. And we always seem to forget something. But rather than when I do forget something, she'll just go, oh, you've forgotten something again. It's, oh, never mind, we'll get it next time. And she really sort of softens the mental blow for me because I am so hard on myself. And even, like, when the car hasn't been washed, one of the things that we had this sort of morning as I took her to work is there was a spider web on one of the windows. And she was like, oh, look, there's a spider's moved into your car. Rather than going, it needs washing. She went, oh, you'll have to pay rent soon if he's there longer. And she made it fun. And it made me kind of go, yeah, I can get my head around that. So that I. I can testify. That does really work. But it's the sort of putting things in place and making it fun. Like, I love my hair. I love gelling my hair. I don't like washing my hair. I never have. I don't like the sort of sensory feeling of it. Even though I love swimming, I love water. I like being in the shower, but I don't like washing my hair. I don't like all the soap and sort of getting in my scalp and how it feels. So Caris has helped me find shampoo that I like. And she wasn't a dick about it. She was like, well, what sort of smells do you like? What sort of textures do you like? Do you want an all in one. Do you want this? And she took it off my plate and just helped me with it. And now when I wash my hair, I like it because it's taken all of the little micro tasks that come with it away. I just have to get in the shower and do it rather than thinking about how much I've got left or does it need a refill, or does it feel good? Does it smell nice? Does it make my hair feel good? She's, like, helped me with the research and just sort of took it off my plate, which I know not everybody can do for themselves, but it's something that is super, super helped me of just making it fun and sort of taking it off my plate. Whereas there's things that she struggles with that I take off her plate, because that's sort of the balance of our relationship. Yeah.

B (60:31)

It's so important to have that when you're just there for each other, because there are things that I'll. I'll be really good at, or I'm. I'm good at motivating myself enough to be able to get over the PDA so I can push myself past it, because I know that once I. Once I get that train out the station, I'm. I'm gonna go. It's gonna be easy, a push. But. But Sylvia, you know, she will. She will struggle to even get the train out the station. So I know. I know what she particularly struggles with. You know, like holidays, for example. I will organize every holiday. I book every Airbnb. I communicate with, you know, the hosts. I, you know, drive, and I'll. I'll find the directions, and I do everything. I know what she likes. We. We're very similar in tastes. She trusts me fully. When we bought this house, she didn't even look at this house. She didn't come to. I came to this house. I talked to the guy. The guy showed me around. I looked around, and I. Because she'd already seen the pictures on the Internet. And I rang her up and I said, and this is like 20, 23, 22 years ago. And I said to her, this is the place. I said, trust me. This is the place. I said, well, this. This is the place that we can afford. Yeah, this is the best we're gonna get for our money. Because we'd looked at so many houses, and. And. And she just went, I trust you. I trust you. And it worked out. We love our house and everything we've done inside our house, and it's like. But, like, putting up shelves and things like that. That Sylvia is. Is so good at diy. She will just build stuff and change stuff. And it's not even stuff that I want. It's not like I say, oh, we need this change. Go and do it. She'll want it changed. Whereas me, I'm just happy just to have whatever I had. But she's so good at it. She makes it look better. She upgrades the house all the time. And it's so cool that we have these awesome different abilities that we can help each other every single day get over that. That initial hump of pda. Like, even when it comes to, you know, getting help from mental health. And, you know, I'll help her book, you know, sessions and things like that. And. And. And I just literally have to guide her to the gym. Like, you must sit here, and I'll set the whole computer up for her. I'll get everything. I'll get her headphones. She just.

A (63:15)

Harry still. She looks at me and just goes, oh, yeah.

B (63:18)

She'll just literally sit in the chair and I'll do absolutely everything. So all she has to do is be on the video call to. To whoever she's talking to. And it's. It's just doing that for your partner, doing that for your kids, making everything, not. Not. Not doing everything for them, but knowing the things they particularly struggle with and then just really helping them with those things. Because then you can get help in.

A (63:48)

Reciprocation and a thing to think about as well, whether you're listening to this on your own, with your partner, with your family, for kids, with kids, whatever is the things that we neurodivergent people are good at, we excel at. So if you can find a sort of support network or a partnership where all of your strengths are combining and covering each other's weaknesses, you create a really strong foundation. Because the things that I'm good at, I excel at, but the things that I struggle with are disabling. Whereas I'm fortunate in that I found a partner who's kind and caring and accommodating. But her strengths also really complement my weaknesses. Like when we bought the house, Caris really struggles with paperwork. She struggles on the phone, and she struggles with legal stuff. And I'm great at that because I do it as part of my work. So when we bought the house, she viewed it and loved it, and I loved it. And then I kind of just came to her with the paperwork, went, sign here, sign here, sign here, sign here, and here, sign here, sign here, and here and here and done. But Then when it came to moving, that's when she took. Took over and was like, well, we're moving this here. That's going away. That's in there. That's moving that day. That's moving that day. Because that's what I'm not good at is change. Like, extreme change. Taking a house apart freaks me out. And it really messed with my head having things in boxes. But she knew that it did, so that. So she then made, like, accommodations and helped me there. So when it works, it really, really works. Sort of supporting each other and pairing up and sort of, you know, one of the things, especially being an unmasked person, I think we'll end here, is accepting your disabilities. I've had to come to terms with the fact that I am disabled. I'm not lazy, I'm disabled. I struggle with things and I've had to really let that in, soak it in, and not be afraid to hand something over to somebody without ruminating or, you know, that rsd that perception, thinking how. What they think of me, I've just had to sort of, in a way, let go. But that's been very freeing.

B (66:10)

Yeah. I think the last thing I want to say is that if. If you're neurodivergent and you're living with a neurodivergent person or neurodivergent kids, everybody can be everyone else's cheer. Cheerleader, just. Just to have that encouragement. So rather than, oh, you've finally done that thing. Well done. I've been asking you for so long. Yeah. Oh, you know, yeah. Took your time. Just remember how difficult things are for you when it's not your thing and it's not for you. And just, Just try and put yourself in the other person's shoes. Try and have that. The empathy levels that we know we have, but they kick in with certain things and aren't there for other things. But, yeah, just to be a cheerleader. So, like, if your kid does manage to do the washing up, just, oh, my God. Thank you. So. You have no idea how much I appreciate that. Even if it's not a big thing, make it a big thing, because that. That can motivate somebody to be like, you know, that was worth it.

A (67:28)

Even if it's a small win, celebrate it. Every win is a win. Celebrate the wins.

B (67:34)

Right?

A (67:35)

Thank you, you lovely people.

B (67:37)

Yes.

A (67:38)

We'll be back for another hot topic. See you later. Be kind, everyone. Take care. Until next time.

B (67:43)

Nightly. Bye.

A (67:50)

Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.

C (67:58)

We're reconsidering everything right now. What is time post Covid? What is truth in Trump's America? Is you've got mail secretly a movie about a creepy gaslighting stalker? We can't answer the first two questions, but we have opinions about the third. We on Hot and Bothered are revisiting romance movies of the past and asking what were these movies teaching us? What did we not even realize they were teaching us? Hot and Bothered is me, Vanessa Zoltan, a pop culture critic and nice lady with opinions, and Hannah McGregor, a bonafide professor of media studies, loving love stories and also just a little bit concerned. Come listen to Hot and Bothered.

A (68:43)

Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com thanks for tuning in to the Neurodivergent Experience. We hope today's episode sparks something for you, whether it's a new idea, a bit of a validation, or just a moment of connection. Remember, new episodes are every week, so be sure to join us for the next one for more conversations and insights into the Neurodivergent Experience. If you've enjoyed this podcast, help us grow. You can do that by rating and reviewing this show. Your support makes a huge difference in helping us reach more people who could benefit from these conversations. You can connect with us on on social media, find us on Instagram, Facebook, Tik Tok. Just search for the neurodivergent Experience. Thank you again for listening and until next time, take care of yourself. You're not alone in this journey.