The Neurodivergent Experience

Episode: “Pathological Demand Avoidance: The Everyday Struggle You Can’t See”

Hosts: Jordan James & Simon Scott
Release Date: August 20, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into Pathological Demand Avoidance (PDA), exploring the hidden, often misunderstood struggles that come with it. Through candid personal stories, humor, and relatable anecdotes, Jordan and Simon break down how PDA manifests in daily life, the underlying anxiety, and the impact on autonomy and relationships. Their goal: increase empathy and understanding for neurodivergent individuals living with PDA.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What is Pathological Demand Avoidance? (06:24)

• Definition: A form of extreme avoidance to everyday demands, driven not by defiance but anxiety and a compulsive need for autonomy.
• Often misunderstood, not always medically recognized (e.g., NHS).
• PDA is not about “being lazy” or “difficult”, but a real, disruptive challenge.
• Quote:

  “It’s thought to be primarily driven by anxiety and the need for control rather than intentional defiance. Individuals with PDA experience intense anxiety in response to demands, leading to extreme avoidance behaviours. This avoidance is not a choice, but a compulsion often triggered by both external requests and internal needs like hunger or thirst.”
  — Jordan James (06:24)

2. What Does PDA Feel Like? (08:20)

• Simon describes a “force field” sensation when faced with a demand — instant resistance, even to tasks he enjoys.

• It’s not only external requests but internal demands too (hygiene, eating, using the bathroom).

• Quote:

  “It’s like a glass door just hit my face. I know I can do the dishwasher... but right now, I don’t want to leave my seat. I’m kind of frozen.”
  — Simon Scott (08:20)

• Requests framed kindly or as favors are less triggering than direct demands (09:41 to 10:23).

• ADHD interplay: Even tasks agreed to might be forgotten or derailed due to attention issues.

3. PDA and Self-Demands (10:58)

• The instant, often subconscious escalation of small tasks into overwhelming challenges.
• Example: Brushing teeth becomes a chain of anxieties and obstacles.
• Quote:

  “My brain will turn that molehill into a mountain... Even when I give myself a task, my brain just immediately denies it.”
  — Simon Scott (11:26)

4. Trauma and PDA (15:19)

• Underlying trauma—fear of failure, shame, or being “told off”—compounds avoidance.
• Preference to be told off for not doing something rather than risk doing it wrong.
• Quote:

  “I would rather be told off for not doing it than being embarrassed at doing it wrong.”
  — Simon Scott (15:29)

5. Everyday Impact: Chores, Appointments, and Procrastination (17:39 & throughout)

• PDA affects all aspects of daily life: chores, self-care, making phone calls, even going to the bathroom or eating.
• Extreme procrastination, especially for important or deadline-driven tasks.
  • Doctor’s appointments, financial admin, healthcare—can be life-threatening if delayed.
• Hosts note the immense mental energy needed to make simple phone calls or appointments (32:24).

6. Humor, Coping, and Relatability

• Heavy use of humor, pop-culture references (King of the Hill, video games), and playful teasing to diffuse tension and humanize their challenges.

• Quote:

  “Hank Hill is definitely autistic... that man has all the tism.”
  — Simon Scott (05:55)

• Extreme relatability: stories about car washing, delaying going to the toilet, avoiding chores, etc.

• Importance of supportive partners who “soften the blow” (51:36), make tasks fun, or help complete tasks.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Choosing vs. Being Told (16:32):

  “If my dad comes up to me and goes, ‘Could you cut the grass for me, right now?’ — Yeah, good luck. But if I just decide to do it, I’m fine with it.”
  — Simon Scott

• On Feared Judgment & Internalized Expectations (40:37):

  “If anybody calls me lazy, it crushes me, because... I’m like, yeah, I’m rubbish. I’m pathetic.”
  — Simon Scott

• On Small Wins (67:28):

  “Even if it’s a small win, celebrate it. Every win is a win. Celebrate the wins.”
  — Jordan James

• On the Impact on Health (44:34):

  “It can literally, and I say this in the most serious way, it can kill us. Because what if you had a pain in your side... and you’re like, no, I just put it off. But what if that’s cancer?”
  — Simon Scott

Practical Strategies & Supports (50:52–63:48)

• Supportive Partners/Networks: Accommodating, understanding messages or requests reduce resistance.

  • Example: Loving, non-demanding reminders (“Don’t forget the washing, love you!”) work better than commands.

• Making Tasks Fun: Adding dopamine rewards—turning chores into games, breaking up tasks, using favorite items (e.g., buying flavored toothpaste).

• Externalizing/Outsourcing: Food boxes, hiring cleaners, automating processes, or asking for help.

  • “Taking the shame and embarrassment out of my limitations has really helped me.” — Jordan James (57:36–58:36)

• Reciprocity: Partners complement each other—helping with weak spots, swapping tasks as needed.

• Encouragement, not Shame: Being a “cheerleader” instead of critiquing for delays.

  • Quote:

    “Just try and put yourself in the other person’s shoes... be a cheerleader.”
    — Simon Scott (66:10)

The Underlying Theme: Autonomy, Empathy, and Validation

• Recognizing PDA as a legitimate, disabling part of the neurodivergent experience—not a matter of willpower or defiance.
• Emotional freedom in accepting one’s disabilities, moving away from shame and self-criticism.
  • “I’ve had to come to terms with the fact that I am disabled. I’m not lazy, I’m disabled.” — Jordan James (63:48–66:10)

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|---------| | 06:24 | What is PDA? Definition and explanation | | 08:20 | First-hand description of the “force field” feeling when faced with demands | | 15:19 | Trauma, PDA, and fear of failure | | 17:39 | How PDA impacts everyday life — chores, appointments, eating | | 32:24 | Procrastination, phone calls, and avoidance of admin tasks | | 51:36 | Supportive partnerships and communication strategies | | 57:27 | Making tasks and routines more accessible — food boxes, fun processes | | 63:48 | The importance of teamwork, complementing strengths/weaknesses, self-acceptance | | 67:28 | Celebrating achievements, no matter how small |

Conclusion

The episode wraps with both hosts emphasizing empathy, celebration of small victories, and the power of support in managing PDA. They debunk the myth of laziness, highlight the real, invisible hurdles PDA creates, and encourage listeners—be they neurodivergent, family, or allies—to validate, accommodate, and cheer each other on.

“Every win is a win. Celebrate the wins.” — Jordan James (67:28)

Next episode: Another “hot topic” on neurodivergence. Find more resources and join the conversation via their social media handles.

For anyone navigating PDA—personally or alongside a loved one—this episode is both a reality check and a source of empathy, humor, and practical wisdom.