Simon Scott (4:22)

Yeah.

Jordan James (4:23)

So look out for that. I cannot give you a date because we've only just. We've only just begun. Yeah, I can sing as well. I'm just so flipping talented. Yeah, I know. Crikey. I agree. It is, it's, it is amazing. If you're Australian. Anyway, what has happened to you in the last 20 minutes? Apparently you needed a tinkle. That's the message I got.

Simon Scott (4:50)

I had a little tinkle. So, okay, it's a week for you guys, about 25 minutes for us. So one of the reasons as to why I want to talk about living with demand avoidance is I'm having to convince myself to do another episode on a day when we don't normally do one. And that is just one of the many little battles that, that I face with living with demand avoidance. Do we know what causes it, Jordan? Because I don't.

Jordan James (5:16)

Okay, so pathological demand avoidance, also known as pda, is a diagnosis of a mental health condition that is not recognized by most authorities. It is not currently recognized by the nhs. It is not recognized by schools and other other wonderful places and things like that. Oh, yeah, it's it's an haps absolute.

Simon Scott (5:42)

Hey, crap show. At least they're consistent.

Jordan James (5:45)

Yeah, at least they're consistent of being really, really terrible at recognizing our difficulties. So I, I put demand avoidance in the category of disability and ability. I see it throughout autistic history. I see it throughout my own history. You know, because we have this thing when we're autistic we love to go against the grain. We do not like going, oh, I mean some of us do. When I say we, I mean the people. Yeah, us too. Especially we. We don't like doing things the way other people do them. We like. No, we want to come up with our own way of doing things. We want to do things our way, which is great to make change. It's great to battle the system, the species on. Yeah. You know, to sort of. Yeah. I mean you don't make change by doing the same thing over and over again. That's the point of it being called change. You have to grow and you have to change and you have to adapt. And I believe that, you know, despite the fact that most neurodivergent people really do struggle with change, I think we're great at adapting to that change. That's how we survive. That's literally how what Darwin said, the, the strongest of the species will survive because they are able to adapt. And that, that's what nds I think we have, we have to adapt because we are in a world that we designed but unfortunately we didn't design it for us because we are a minority.

Simon Scott (7:15)

We're constantly looking to improve things and make things better.

Jordan James (7:20)

Yeah, I mean, well, that's it. I mean a lot of it is driven by our need to make the world better for us, make it work even as individuals. But you know, scientific discoveries, innovations, art, music, it's all been affected and progressed because of, in my opinion, this need to avoid the conventional way of doing things. That's a superpower as far as I'm concerned. That's an ability. Where it becomes a severe disability is on a day to day basis we will end up just for me personally, it's almost like anybody that says anything to me, my brain will automatically go, no, I don't want to do that. Like an angry, annoyed, very, very tired teenager. When parents says, oh you need to tidy a room, then like I don't want to do that. And people can be suggesting things that are really helpful, like super helpful, like medical things that are helpful.

Simon Scott (8:29)

Yeah, totally.

Jordan James (8:29)

And just, just to put it out there with the mild avoidance, like A current thing. We talked about this a couple of weeks ago, and now obviously it's been only a couple of weeks since I got it is. I was having. I have serious trouble with sleeping. Went to the nhs, they said, okay, this is an app that we recommend, you know, can you try this before we move on to anything else? Guess how many times I have attempted to even open the app, let alone use it? Oh, twice. Zero.

Simon Scott (9:02)

Oh, I was being ambitious, though.

Jordan James (9:05)

You were being kind to me, dude. I. I bought. I bought a front and rear camera dash cam for my car. Spent a decent amount of money on it because I wanted to get a really good one because most people are terrible drivers. Yeah, I haven't put it in yet. Yeah, I just need to go outside and just put it in my car. There's something that. It's almost like it physically stops me from doing it. And it's so annoying. And I believe that some of it's anxiety driven. Some of it is just me being a big man child. The fact that I want to do more fun things. And that doesn't seem like a fun thing.

Simon Scott (9:46)

Yeah, yeah.

Jordan James (9:48)

But even when it comes to fun things, and I know that, like, there's a lot of parents out there that will probably appreciate this, that you'll say to your kid, oh, do you want to go and do this incredibly fun thing like, you know, swimming or, you know, a fun fair or something like that? And they're going, I don't want to do that. I don't want to do that. I don't want to do that. And then you kind of, you know, end up, you know, if, if, if you're me, you end up making them go anyway and say, well, I'm the adult and you're the child. You're gonna get in the car now. And, you know, again, not always the best parent, but it worked because when they got there, they loved it. They absolutely loved it. And demand avoidance has been a huge burden as a parent. When my. Because my kids have got it. It's been a huge annoyance for Sylvia and I because we will make lovely suggestions that are really helpful to each other, and then we just won't do them because of this demand avoidance where we're just like, I'm not. I'm not doing that. It has affected my work, it has affected my home life, it has affected friendships. It has affected every aspect of my life. Is this inability to just listen to others and. And just go, yeah, actually, I really think that's a great idea.

Simon Scott (10:59)

You add to that I find it really hard even listening to myself, you know, it's like I'm very, especially. I'm very, very good at giving advice. I sometimes feel a lot wiser than I am for my years. Crikey, I'm crap at taking my own advice. And you know what? If I did, I would have a lot more enjoyment out of things in my life. But for me, demand avoidance stops me from doing so many things I enjoy doing because the procrastination demon in my head makes so many excuses as to why I can't do the thing I love doing. Golf for me, regulates me, it chills me out, it balances me. I love to do it. It's a half an hour drive to the nearest driving range for me, but my brain goes, traffic. Got to think about the correct time of day to go. It's going to take you an hour to get there, an hour to get. And I create excuses as to why I can't go. And my body just goes, no, it's fine, we're not doing it. It's like a reverse magnet effect. I literally feel myself being pushed away from the thing I like to do. It's like it takes me half an hour to walk to the gym. So my brain just goes, you don't want to do that. You don't want to walk to the gym. And so we're not going to go to the gym. And it's really disabling when I really want to go and play golf. Really, really want to go and play golf. And There are almost 10 things in my mind that are stopping me from doing it. And that overwhelms me. And then that just this feedback loop from hell. It's like I want to do the thing to make me feel better, but my brain won't let me do the thing. And I just get stuck in this really horrible paralysis by analysis state where I'm just getting a spin of going, I desperately want to do this, but I can't. And it even applies to eating as well. There are times when I know I'm really hungry, man, and I'll put my hand on my belly and I'm like, oh, I'm so hungry. But the thought of putting food in my mouth feels almost like I've never done it before. It's alien. It's like I've forgotten how to do it. And it just. Honestly, it's really disabling and at times can be quite frightening as to why I don't want to do this thing, especially when it comes to Work. It's like if I have a disagreement with somebody at work, it's not. My brain goes, oh, that was disappointing. We didn't like that. It goes, we don't like them. We're not doing that anymore. Screw them. And that's not helpful when I need to do the job. And it can be really hard and really painful pushing through that barrier because it just burns my energy so much, forcing myself to do something that my brain's going, you don't want to do this. They don't want you to do it. You're. You're only going to mess it up. You're only going to. And it's like, oh, my God. Oh, my gosh. All this anxiety just builds up from just trying to do anything.

Jordan James (13:47)

Yeah. So, yeah, I am. I. I like. I say it affects every aspect of my life and.

SoFi Advertiser (13:59)

Even.

Jordan James (14:01)

Even things that I want to do. Like, you know, I buy a new video game and I go, oh, yeah, I really, really want to play that. But it's like this barrier. There's like a wall that I have to climb over with jagged rocks and sharp bits of glass sticking out of it in my mind. Just. Just. Just to. Just to download it, you know, just. Just to. Just to. Just press play. Just press play on it, Jordan. Just do it. And. And it's. It's cr. It upsets me so much because I get annoyed at myself because I'm like, oh, I really want to. I really want to watch that show, or I really want to watch that movie, or you want to do that thing. But then there's this huge hurdle in my own mind that I have to combat, and it's. It's so disabling at times, and it makes me so tired just trying to do something that I actually want to do. And. And people will say, oh, yeah, that's anxiety. It's procrastination. But it is more than that. It. Like I said, it's. There's a pathological part of my brain. It's just. It just. It just won't let me do the things that I want to do without having to fight it.

Simon Scott (15:24)

So there's a battle.

Jordan James (15:26)

Oh, I'll tell you what. I love being neurodivergent. I wouldn't change it for the world, but, oh, my God, there are so many parts of it. You know, the anxiety, the depression, the eidetic memory, the. The mind avoidance, physical disabilities, the mental disabilities. There's so much part of it that is just. It's just a constant fight. And then you get People that either refuse to believe it's real, refuse to understand it, refuse to educate themselves on it, tell you you're wrong and they know more than you do, even though that they know about as much as a squashed ant. And it's, it makes our world so much more difficult if people just don't listen to us.

Simon Scott (16:12)

Do you know this is one of the things that I'm finding the most difficult with my demand avoidance and it ties into the people not listening to you. It's hard enough me going to the pharmacy to pick my medication up as it is, let alone without the promise of it being there. And the amount of like meltdown inducing moments I'm having when I'm having to fight my demand avoidance and then either my expectation isn't met or you know, the, the issues to why I went out there isn't resolved. It's like I'm now getting demand avoidance about going and chasing my medication because my brain's going what's the bloody point? And that's really hard to get through because I need my medication to stop feeling like this. So I'm not going out and chasing pharmacies because I'm feeling demand avoidance. And then because I'm doing that, I'm not getting my medication. But every time I have done it, I haven't been able to get hold of it and my brain is literally screaming at me going what's the effing point? And it's trying to convince yourself that there is a point and you have to do it and trying to explain that to somebody. If, you know, if it's not you, Jordan, or you know, it's not somebody that understands me or knows me, the amount of people that look at me and go come on, get over yourself or get a grip. It's like I cannot explain to you the physical uncomfort I go through when I so desperately want to do something. It's like if I have three hours in an evening and I go, I can watch a film and I distract myself for an hour and a half so I can no longer watch that film. The anger that I feel with myself is toxic. And it all comes from just not being able to just press frickin play on a remote. And literally talking about it now is making me feel frustrated because I know what that feeling feels like. And obviously having an eidetic memory when I think about it, I feel it. So there is an awful lot going on at any given time. And when you're asking for help and people go there's People that obviously have it worse than you and you really, that it just, it reaffirms the procrastination demon. It reaffirms that you have to bribe it to get what you want because people don't believe you and you just feel like the boy who cries wolf and you go, well, what's the point anyway? And then the demand avoidance has won. That's the battle. Man, it's so hard.

Jordan James (18:45)

I'm going to give you a couple of examples of two friends that I have. Not naming them two friends. I have that and, and I don't like using the word suffer. When it comes to neurodivergent.

Simon Scott (18:58)

We try and be positive.

Jordan James (18:59)

I, I, I definitely suffer at the hands of idiots who annoy me.

Simon Scott (19:07)

Yeah, I have idiot rage. Not road rage.

Jordan James (19:10)

Yeah, the, the, the, But I, I believe that, that they are suffering from demand avoidance because it, they are suffering physically because of their own demand avoidance. And one of my friends, he's had a, an issue with it with his knee for years now. And I remember when it first happened, it was really bad because, you know, he was doing really well with his fitness and he was out walking every day and yes, it was really great for his mental health. He was losing weight, you know, so he was, you know, a lot healthier as well, you know, because he was, you know, a much better fitness. And then he got this injury and it all went to crap for him. Basically. It went downhill and it was such a shame watching it. And he, he won't go to doctor. This has been years. He won't go to the doctor. And it, every time, every time we meet up. I love the genital giant. I really do, but, and I'm like, have you been to doctor? His doctor surgery is at the end of his road of, and he, he just, his brain and, and it's, it's not laziness, it's not procrastination because of anxiety. It really isn't those things. It's just there's a part of his brain that just blocks him from doing something that he not only wants to, he needs to do it. He's in pain. He does. He doesn't even need the doctor to get painkillers. So he's in constant pain because he just, he can't force himself to get himself to the doctor. And the, the other one was another friend of mine who went something like six or seven years without an eye test and a new prescription for his glasses. So he's been, he was using the same old glasses. For years and years and years. And his eyesight is obviously progressively gets worse and worse. This is why we have regular eye tests. And his eyes were like, red and he couldn't see properly and he was always tired because obviously one of the reasons why I wear glasses is when I'm trying to read or trying to watch something, one of my eyes isn't as strong as the other. So balance that out. So I'm a lot less tired when I. When I'm driving or when I'm concentrating on something, I'm a lot less tired and my eyes don't sting when I'm wearing my glasses. And, you know, he was in a lot of pain, you know, with, you know, his eyes and stuff. And I was like, just go. Just go and get an eye Test. It's like 20 quid. Just go and get an eye test. And he would do all the research.

Simon Scott (21:59)

Seems easy, doesn't it?

Jordan James (22:00)

Came to it. Yeah. It sounds so simple, so easy.

Simon Scott (22:03)

In layman's terms. Just get up and go.

Jordan James (22:05)

Neurotypicals will literally just go, I don't get it. Just go, just go, just go. But I got it. I understand it's heartbreaking to watch because I know he wants to. I know he wants to do it. He was doing all the online research, he was looking at everything. He said, yeah, I'm going to do this. I said, we'll just book an appointment. He said, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll do it.

Simon Scott (22:27)

Like, I'll do it, I'll do it.

Jordan James (22:28)

Yeah, I'll do it later. It just never. And I'm pleased to say so please say that recently he has actually gone and got it done and. And I'm. He's much, much better off for it and I'm super happy about that. But it massively impacts our lives and yet the NHS do not officially diagnose it, which is so crap.

Simon Scott (23:00)

This doesn't make sense to me because you can see it. You can see that it affects people in huge ways. There are so many stereotypes of autistic people that are incorrect and a lot of them, you know, get picked up on. Why does this not get picked up on? Why is this not something that is common knowledge that we struggle with? It's like we've talked about in previous episodes or even, you know, talking personally. If I was to call into work and go, sorry, I can't come in today because I'm struggling with really bad demand avoidance. You can hear the eye roll on the phone.

Jordan James (23:34)

Yeah, no one's going to take that seriously.

Simon Scott (23:36)

No. Who the hell's going to take that seriously? If I say, oh, I'm feeling really unwell, I've been on the toilet all night, I've got it coming out of both ends, then normally people let you off. But crikey, I the amount of people that tell me that they've had food poisoning and they can't work. What are people eating, man? I know that that's not why you're off work, but it's. I can't say no. But yeah, if I'm to be like, oh, I've woken up this morning, I've got the black dog on my back, I'm feeling super anxious, I'm really struggling to eat because I've got demand avoidance and I'm sat in my car waiting to turn the keys but I can't get a grip sign, just that's the, that's the feeling that you get from people when you're asking for help. And yet how can you ask for help when people don't know you're drowning? They're not going to tell you about life. You're drowning, they don't believe you're drowning. Like literally. Do I have to be floating face down in the water for people to believe I need help? Like, this is the difficult thing with, with all of this.

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Simon Scott (25:37)

This is a neurodivergent experience. Public Announcement if you live in England and you or a loved one is waiting for an Autism or ADHD assessment. You don't have to wait years. RTN Diagnostics is now part of the NHS Right to Choose scheme, which means if your local wait for a consultant led autism or ADHD assessment is more than 18 weeks, you can choose RTN instead and it won't cost you a penny. Jordan chose RTN for his own family because their care and attention to detail were second to none. They didn't just diagnose autism and adhd, they looked at the full picture, including pda, ocd, anxiety and more. The team is friendly, neuroaffirming and comprises many neurodivergent individuals, so they truly understand. Getting started is simple. Download the GP referral letter and questionnaire from the link in our show notes, take those to your GP and ask for a referral to RTN diagnostics. If approved, RTN will be in touch within eight weeks to begin your assessment. Remember, this only applies in England and some exclusions do apply. RTN is not currently able to accept referrals for child ADHD assessments. So check the details before you start RTN diagnostics, helping you get the answers you deserve without the wait.

Jordan James (27:15)

Yeah. One of the things that really upsets me is that I, I've heard from so many parents and receive so many messages about, you know, their kids and them kids, their kids not being taken seriously with their mental health and, you know, it seems that, you know, I'm not saying all cams, I'm just saying from what I've heard, cams seems to be, you know, bolt the door after the horses run organization. It's, it's. They're only there, you know, if, if somebody does try and take their own life, then they'll get involved. It's like, well, maybe, just maybe you get involved before that. I know, I know. Do you know what s. I think, I think I might have just had the best idea ever. Let's help the kids before they start cutting themselves. That might be a good idea. No, cams are like, nah, it's not serious enough.

Simon Scott (28:17)

They just, they won't take them seriously until they see the scars. That's the problem. It's too late.

Jordan James (28:22)

It's disgusting.

Simon Scott (28:23)

It's too late.

Jordan James (28:24)

My, my, my heart goes out to the parents because so many of them will end up blaming themselves and, you know, so many, so many times, it really isn't the parents fault, it really isn't, but parents get blamed so much. Now, I'm not saying parents are blameless, you know, but. No, so many of the occasions where parents get blamed it's, it's not their fault. It's, it's the school's fault. It's the, the parents of other kids who, who don't teach their other, their kids respect, to respect others, to respect differences. It's, it's the faults of the medical industry for not taking us seriously, especially female NDs. All of them. All of them. Yeah. Well, it's just, yeah, she's having an episode.

Simon Scott (29:17)

All that crap.

Jordan James (29:18)

Yeah, yeah. They're not autistic. They've just got borderline personality disorder. I'm like, there are so many people I know, so many people I know, including family members that were diagnosed with borderline personality disorder. For them, for it to be like, then, you know, oh, by the way, that it's not that they're actually just.

Simon Scott (29:35)

Honestly, dude, the amount of people that message me and go, I've, you know, got bpd, but I think I actually might be autistic. It's something that I do get approached around especially like I've got family and friends that have, have been diagnosed with borderline personality disorder. And it's, it's like I've known people where they go, oh, they're just bipolar. I go, no, I'm not sure. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a medical professional, but I've known quite a few undiagnosed neurodivergent people that started telling me that they had BPD or bipolar. And then it has changed.

Jordan James (30:08)

Yeah, I mean, let's be clear to the audience. Yeah, Bipolar and borderline personality disorder, as far as I can tell, aren't part of the tan. So they're not part of the alternative neurotype. There again, these are just words, these are just diagnostic criterias. They're not physical manifestations of, for actual scientific fact that it's all opinion based. It's that psychology again. You know, we're in its ugly head trying to change people's lives so they can, you know, advance their careers. And yeah, it's, but it is neurodivergence. If you talk about neurodivergence general, it does change your brain. But as far as I'm concerned, those people who end up being like that, if you're going by my hypothesis and let me make it clear, this is a hypothesis, means it's a working theory. It is what I believe from the evidence that I have seen, which is a lot, by the way. But I'm not saying this is the way it is. I'm saying this is what I think and this is this is my hypothesis that, you know, people who end up being diagnosed with those things are in fact, you know, tan. They're in fact the alternative neurotype. And the stresses and strains that are put on us because of, you know, this neurotype, it will result in them getting a diagnosis of, you know, any number of things, especially for women, because these so called professionals, they're, they're only trained in their expert field and they barely have a working knowledge of anything else. So it's, it's a, it's a lottery of what you end up getting diagnosed with.

Simon Scott (31:54)

Yeah, and yeah, I mean, I, I've spoken to a couple of people and, and it's really difficult. Obviously I'm not a doctor like you. It's a hypothesis. Just working with what I see before me and building my own conclusion doesn't mean it's the truth or it's fact. It's just what I see. And there are so many times where I, as a diagnosed neurodivergent person wish that I could give somebody a peer review and they take it, you know, officially. And because I find a lot of the time I have people come up to me and I give them. The advice that Dr. Luke Bearden gave us very early on in this podcast is if you think you are neurodivergent, just imagine that you are and see how you feel. And a lot of people that have come back with diagnosis of bipolar or severe depression or BPD have come back to me and gone. I took your advice and it worked and I've gone away. And I do feel a lot happier, a lot more myself because I'm not punishing myself. And you know, a lot of the time I really struggle with that. Like I said very early on, you know, I'm not very good at taking my own advice. Sometimes I hear myself say things and I go crikey. So I didn't know that you thought like that or think that. And I wish I could listen to it and really take it on board, but it is, it is frightening because there are still times, even though I'm diagnosed and I've understood that I'm neurodivergent from a very, very young age and, you know, now understanding the alternative neurotype as well, there are still times where people who are misdiagnosed or have been given a doctor's opinion that may not necessarily be correct die on that hill and still fight against you. When you're trying to have a conversation about neurodivergence, it really does frustrate the hell out of me that you can't talk about it and people just take you seriously. It's like if I was to say to somebody, oh, I'm bipolar, they go, oh, okay, sorry to hear that. But if I say to somebody, oh, I'm autistic, it's like this whole debate just opens up and anyone can say or think or say what they want about it. And yet it's like we just can't seem to. To win the argument with it. I find it's. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's frustrating. Yeah.

Jordan James (34:14)

Which is, which is why, you know, the fact that PDA isn't even getting recognized as a diagnosis, it makes it 100 times worse because, you know, is. It does negatively impact. It's quite a lot. You know, like I said before, there are benefits to it in the way that, you know, we will have that linear thinking and, you know, we go against the grain and even that, even that. When, when it's a good thing for science or it's a good thing for us because, you know, we get to make our own decisions and we choose our own futures and we have more control because, you know, being in control as a neurodivergent person for me is incredibly important because of my anxiety. I need to have more control over my, over my world. Doesn't mean I want to control others, but I certainly have to control, know what is around me in order for me to have a good day.

Simon Scott (35:07)

You.

Jordan James (35:07)

Know, but when, when it's. When something's not even recognized as like, oh, by the way, you know, you're just making that up. That's how it feels. So the medical industry is almost just saying, you know, screw you. We, we, we know better than you. And it's like, well, you don't. Evidently you don't. I like, there are pages and pages and pages of information out there. There are books, there are social media, YouTubers, Facebook pages, Instagram pages. There are so many people out there talking about pda and a lot of them are far more in depthly versed than I am. You know, I know a lot about it, but, you know, some people are specialists in it and they're not medical people. They're specialists because they live it. Especially because they, they, they care about it, they have passion about it and, and still like people. There are medical people out there, there are psychologists out there. Just go, nice. It's not real. And it's just, that's just so crap because people, you've got a workplace. What they're going to jump on the bandwagon for. They're going to go, oh, well, it's not real. Therefore we don't have to do something or they're going to believe the person who's suffering from PDA and go, oh no, they actually is a real thing because you have described it and we believe you. And therefore we actually have to spend money or we have to change policies or we have to support you. Most workplaces, most schools, they don't want to do that because that's, that takes effort, that takes time to hire somebody else.

Simon Scott (36:53)

It's easy.

Jordan James (36:54)

Yeah, but it's so much easier if. Because they just go, go. Well, the NHS don't recognize it, so why should we? It's not a real thing. Yeah, we don't have to do anything about your pda. And I'm like, oh, great. So not only have I got to suffer through my PDA on a daily basis, but you're not even gonna try and help me?

Simon Scott (37:15)

And this fuels the PDA even more. My brain literally says to me, why would you fight for you when no one else is? And it's like, oh yeah, crushes. It's, it's like, it's like, what's the point? And it doesn't go from, oh, what's the point of trying that it then dissolves and devolves to what's the point of getting out of bed? And then you're in trouble. That's when the mental health aspect of this is dangerous and is life threatening and destroying. And yet people don't take it seriously until it's, until it's beyond the point of help. Which is the bit that's so frustrating because I look back on my periods of life when I've had severe demand avoidance and the amount of times I've been called lazy dude. And it's like, just like putting a knife through your ribs. It just makes it so much worse. So much worse.

Jordan James (38:05)

And I can guarantee you, everyone out there, this man is not lazy.

Simon Scott (38:10)

I'm a workaholic. I'm literally, I can't stop.

Jordan James (38:13)

You will. You will work until I have to tell you to take a break. I mean, to be fair, anyone that, anyone that can put up with me as a friend is, is that, that's a full time job in itself. I'm, I'm a lot of work.

Simon Scott (38:24)

You're not the only one, dude. Everyone says, everyone that knows me and loves me goes, you work too hard. And I constantly say to myself, I don't work hard enough. I don't work hard enough, I can always work harder, can always do more. And that's the problem.

Jordan James (38:37)

I, I do, I do wonder about pda. You know, obviously, you know, we can look into it more. And you know, I, I highly suggest that everybody does who's listening to this, that they go and do their own research on it and find out how, you know, it might affect them personally. But my working knowledge of it normally just comes as it, as it does for, for most things I know about neurodivergence is from, from experience, from, from, from self reflection and understanding me and the people around me. Not on a broader scale really. But yeah, it's, it, it is frustrating that people will literally just not understand it or just refuse to understand something without going and doing their own research. You know, they'll, they'll, they'll just go, oh no, you know, I don't understand that. Therefore, you know, I can't really relate to it. Which like you said, it makes it even more difficult because people will often see us as being lazy. And it's just, that's just not the case. Like, if I'm being lazy, I'm quite happy to admit it, but demand avoidance is not laziness.

Simon Scott (39:50)

Yeah, it's, it's, it's a, it's a difficult subject to get your head around because I, again with a lot of my neurodivergent experience, I can explain it, but I can't tell you what. It is hard. It's hard.

Jordan James (40:05)

So give me two examples. One of how demand avoidance has, has actually helped you and one example of how like one of the worst examples of how it is like, negatively impacted your life.

Simon Scott (40:24)

Okay. If I'm in a job that I hate, I will find it very, very difficult, one, to leave, two, to find another job and commit to it. So if I'm stuck in something, I find it very difficult to pull myself out of that situation because of demand avoidance. It's like I go, I need to do X, Y and Z to help me move out of this situation. But then as soon as I figure out what I need to do, the battle is then convincing myself to do those things. So that can be the really difficult, negative thing about it. Like whether it's being stuck in a relationship like we've talked about before, or in a friendship or in a, in a bad work environment. It's like, you know, there are certain jobs that I've had that I've stayed two years too long because I find it really difficult to break away and.

Jordan James (41:14)

Get up and leave but, yeah, I understand that completely.

Simon Scott (41:18)

But then one of the positives of that is the demand avoidance has helped me not run flying into situations where are going to have negative impacts on me. For example, there have been maybe four or five different podcast ideas I had before this, and I'm really glad that my demand, my demand avoidance stopped me from committing to those because truly, deeply, I didn't want to do them. I wanted to do this. And that's one of the beautiful things about my demand avoidance, out of some of the many negative things that it does, is it does help me put a pause on being super impulsive and committing to things that I don't really want to commit to. It's like I've been a people pleaser all my life, but my divan avoidance does help me kind of stop that, because I go, I don't really want to do that. And as I've gotten older with maturity, I don't do it. But that's where it kind of, it helps me in a positive way. It stops me sometimes flying into things and committing to things that I don't really want to do.

Jordan James (42:16)

Oh, that's really, really helpful, man. That's really interesting. I would say, you know, if we're going to start with the negatives, the thing how it's most affected me is definitely my parenting. You know, being, being the best dad I can be. So often, you know, my kids needed me for something, you know, nothing serious. It's not like, you know, oh, my son's leg is broken.

Simon Scott (42:42)

I, I dragging you away from something or.

Jordan James (42:46)

Yeah, but, you know, like, my, my daughter needs, you know, help with, with me reading to her or her reading to me or something like that. And, and it just, no matter what I, I, I felt, no matter how much I wanted to do it, there's just this part of me that's like, I just, I can't do that. I just can't do that. And, and it's also made me seemingly selfish in a lot of situations where people will say that, that, you know, oh, he's, he's very, he's got a huge ego. He's, he's so full of himself. All he ever wants to do is talk about himself. And, and it's, it's, it really isn't that. I, I have a real, real issue with listening to people talk about their lives. If their lives aren't interesting to me, there's this part of my brain that just goes, I can't listen to you. Like, I'll start feeling ill like physically sick. Having to listen to somebody talk about, you know, their life.

Simon Scott (43:40)

You want to walk away, don't you? It's the fight or flight. You just want to leave.

Jordan James (43:44)

Yes. And it's awful because I genuinely empathize with that person. And that's the other thing is it can come across as a lack of empathy of me caring about others. Because I just had this huge hurdle that I have to get over and in order just, just to listen to other people. This is why I'm so glad that you and I have found each other. Because that hurdle doesn't exist. When I, when I'm listening to you, you know, I want to hear about your day, I want to hear about your life. I want to hear about, you know, the things that happen to you. I care about what is happening in your life. They're great. Part of being demand avoidant is the rules of photography. So you know, if you don't know. I am completely self taught. In 2018, I taught myself how to take pictures. I am now of professional quality. I'm a semi professional photographer and I sell my work all over the world. And if you're watching this on YouTube, YouTube channel watch it. You can see the picture behind me and it does not follow the rules of photography. There are rules in photography about the rule of thirds that you know to give a picture symmetry and things like that. I don't care about those rules. I don't want to follow those rules. This is why when I originally started doing photography, I said it's not photography, it's autistic photography. Because it's my style, it's my photography, it's not your photography. And yeah, that, that demand avoidance has, has meant that I have created my own style of photography. It has meant that I was able to express myself through my photography without worrying about what other people think of it. It's why I don't enter competitions. I don't care what other people think about my pictures. I know that sounds crazy, I genuinely don't. I hope people like them. I'm happy when people like them, but I'm actually happy that they like them because it makes them happy. So I'm happy that they're happy. I don't care that they liked the picture. That doesn't brighten my day that my photography is popular. What brightens my day is that people enjoy it and get the same feelings that I do from it, which is that, you know, mindfulness, which is that, you know, feeling of calm and almost like, you know, it's not almost. It is a visual stem. That's what my photography is. It's my own visual stem.

Simon Scott (46:19)

Yeah, it's a good way of putting it because I get that from your photos. I look at your photos and it takes me to the place, you know, it's that escapism.

Jordan James (46:27)

Yes. And that means a lot to me. Not because I judge my self worth or my skill on what you said. It's. It means a lot to me because that means you're happy. And if you're happy, I'm happy when other people are happy. But when you're happy, I'm super happy because I flipping love you, bro. And if by looking at my pictures that makes you happy, oh, that, that, that makes my day.

Simon Scott (46:51)

Well, this is the thing. One of my greatest pleasures in my life is my playlists. Right. I put music to photographs all of the time and I have a lot of your photographs on my playlists because they match up. But they, they. What I find is I create soundtracks without an image and you and your photography is helping me fill the image. So that's why is. So it's a bit of a collaborative thing, even though no one really looks at it, but it's, it makes me happy. So.

Jordan James (47:18)

And that is awesome. And that is how demand avoidance for me can be good. Because it means that I don't always do things like other people. And that means that I can put my own style to things, which means I can enjoy them on a personal basis and know that it was me that created that and not somebody else that created it for me. And that is a hugely important thing. Because I felt like if people teach me something, that means that any achievement that I've got by doing that is, that means that's their achievement in my life as well.

Simon Scott (47:53)

Yeah.

Jordan James (47:54)

Yeah. So if someone says I'll do it that way and then I do it that way, they're the ones that are going to get the credit. So I don't feel like I've achieved anything because I just copied someone else. But for me, if I, if I do something and I figure out how to do it myself, there's a much, much bigger achievement. It doesn't always end up like that, but I do feel better about myself as somebody who is able to do something. If I did it myself in my own way, in my own time, it might be harder, it might take longer, but at least it's my way of doing it. And that, that's, that's how it can be good and then, you know, also bad.

Simon Scott (48:31)

How have we done it? How have we got a negative thing and managed to turn it into a nice positive right at the end? We've managed to do it. Well done. Right. Okay, guys.

Jordan James (48:40)

Always looking for that. I'm always looking for the positive, man.

Simon Scott (48:42)

This is the thing.

Jordan James (48:43)

Always done.

Simon Scott (48:44)

This is. This is the thing is you're talking about your photographs. This is how I feel about this podcast. Yeah, we have thousands of people listening to this. We've had over 20,000 downloads, which is 20.

Jordan James (48:55)

Nearly. 22,000.

Simon Scott (48:56)

Wild. Dude. We've. We've nearly. We've sold out a football stadium. Like, that's, you know, you and me stood on the halfway line having a conversation. Effectively. We've had a football stadium of downloads.

Jordan James (49:08)

But, yeah, we love every one of you.

Simon Scott (49:10)

And we. Yeah, and we. Yeah, we do. But I'll tell you what, I love it even more when people send us messages and go, I loved that episode. I really related to something that you said there that's really helped me, Dad. I can't tell you how. How positive that feeling is for both of us. But anyway, quote of the week.

Jordan James (49:39)

If grizzly bears aren't meant to be cuddled, then why are they so cuddly?

Simon Scott (49:45)

Fantastic quote. I said this literally the other day. If not friend, why friend shaped.

Jordan James (49:51)

Yeah, why friend shaped?

Simon Scott (49:52)

Why friend shaped.

Jordan James (49:53)

But that's a question, not a quote.

Simon Scott (49:55)

So I couldn't say that. There you go being very, very literal there. Love that. So, guys, it's that time. It's the end of the episode. Thank you again for, once again tuning in with us on a Thursday or whatever day you listen to this podcast on Apple, Spotify, wherever you're listening. Thank you for tuning in. It's. Yeah, it's been a. Been a roller coaster of a ride, but that is the neurodivergent experience. So until next time, guys. See you later. Bye. Bye. Bye.

Jordan James (50:22)

We'll see you at Autistic Minds. Bye bye.

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Simon Scott (51:40)

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Jordan James (51:44)

A show that we recommend.

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Simon Scott (52:23)

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