Re-Run | Pathological Demand Avoidance: The Everyday Struggle You Can’t See

Summary

---

The Neurodivergent Experience – Re-Run | Pathological Demand Avoidance: The Everyday Struggle You Can’t See

Hosts: Jordan James & Simon Scott
Release Date: January 8, 2026

---

Episode Overview

In this heartfelt and candid episode, Jordan James and Simon Scott dive deep into the hidden struggles of Pathological Demand Avoidance (PDA), an autistic profile characterized by an intense, anxiety-driven resistance to everyday demands—both from others and from oneself. Through personal stories, humor, and lived experience, they unpack how PDA shapes their daily routines, relationships, and mental landscapes, while challenging misunderstandings and encouraging compassionate support.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What is Pathological Demand Avoidance?

[08:19] Jordan:

• PDA is often dismissed by healthcare systems (e.g., NHS), but both hosts assert it’s a very real part of their lives.
• Prefer reframing PDA as an “obsessive need for autonomy” rather than simply avoidance.
• The compulsion to avoid is not a choice, but a response to intense anxiety and a need for control.
• PDA affects both external requests (chores, favors) and internal needs (hunger, going to the bathroom).

Quote:

“What pathological demand avoidance is, is it's thought to be primarily driven by anxiety and a need for control rather than intentional defiance. Individuals with PDA experience intense anxiety in response to demands, leading to extreme avoidance behaviors... This avoidance is not a choice, but a compulsion.” — Jordan [09:00]

---

2. How PDA Feels in Daily Life

[10:15] Simon:

• Describes PDA as a “force field” or “glass door” that slams into action at the smallest demand.
• Even enjoyable tasks are transformed into daunting hurdles once they become expectations.
• The mind instantly searches for reasons to avoid, and even self-imposed tasks trigger avoidance.
• Paradoxically, the desire for autonomy can result in complete loss of control.

Quote:

“It's like a little force field has just hit my face... I genuinely feel that force field just, like, go thump. It's like a glass door just hit my face. I went, oh, don't want to do that now.” — Simon [10:15]

---

3. The Power of Language and Framing

[12:20] Jordan & Simon:

• Requests phrased as favors, or offered with flexibility, trigger less resistance.
• Direct demands result in “lock brain” reactions—a hard ‘no,’ even for self-care.
• ADHD and PDA often interplay, leading to forgotten tasks even when intention is there.

Quote:

“Because it's not a demand, it's not a task. It's a request at your leisure. It's asking for a favor, which is very, very different.” — Jordan [12:21]

---

4. Emotional Layers: Shame, Trauma, and Fear of Failure

[17:15] Simon & Jordan:

• The fear of doing things wrong is more crippling than the fear of being told off.
• Childhood experiences, such as arguing over chores or homework, contribute to trauma fueling PDA.
• “Revenge time” behaviors: rebelling by refusing to go to bed after being forced to do something else.

Quote:

“I would rather be told off for not doing it than being embarrassed at doing it wrong.” — Simon [17:28]

---

5. PDA’s Pervasiveness: Even Basic Needs Become Obstacles

[29:08] Simon:

• PDA not only affects complex tasks but extends to eating, using the restroom, and self-care.
• The smallest acts (e.g., washing the car) require massive mental energy and are often put off indefinitely.
• The buildup of micro-demands leads to constant exhaustion.

Quote:

“I have to tell myself to go to the toilet every day. I will hold myself to bursting point...” — Simon [29:08]

---

6. Procrastination and The Deadline Rush

[37:00] Simon & Jordan:

• Tasks are often left until the last possible moment, despite anxiety and knowledge of consequences.
• The sense of accomplishment after overcoming PDA is outsized: “like beating a final boss.”
• Once momentum is achieved, it can spiral into doing too much, leading to burnout.

Quote:

“If someone says it needs to be in by the 12th, it is getting done and then sent off on the 12th at 11:59, like, just by the very end of the day.” — Jordan [37:18]

---

7. Strategies & Supports: Making Life with PDA Work

**[55:13] Simon & Jordan:]

• Having an understanding, non-judgmental partner is life-changing.
• Text reminders, using inclusive and supportive language, and “buttering up” can nudge past avoidance.
• Incentivizing with dopamine, making tasks fun or rewarding, is crucial for both kids and adults.
• Splitting responsibilities in partnerships according to strengths helps both partners manage their challenges.

Quote:

“Having somebody who understands me has been the absolute game changer... Even if it's just sending me a little text going, don't forget there's washing in the washing machine. Loads of love hearts. That is so much more helpful than her just going, ‘by the way, you need to empty the dishwasher.’” — Simon [55:13]

---

8. Accommodations and Self-acceptance

[68:09] Simon:

• Accepting disability, not laziness, is key for self-compassion.
• Shame and internalized ableism must be named and challenged.
• Celebrate small wins; being a “cheerleader” for yourself and others is vital.

Quote:

“I've had to come to terms with the fact that I am disabled. I'm not lazy, I'm disabled. I struggle with things and I've had to really let that in, soak it in, and not be afraid to hand something over to somebody without ruminating or, you know, that rsd, that perception, thinking how what they think of me, I've just had to sort of, in a way, let go. But that's been very freeing.” — Simon [69:09]

---

9. Advice to Parents, Partners, and the Neurodivergent Community

[70:31] Jordan:

• Be a cheerleader. Swap criticism for gratitude and encouragement, even for “small” tasks.
• Understand that PDA affects everything. It’s not about defiance or laziness, but an ongoing, invisible struggle.

Quote:

“Just remember how difficult things are for you when it's not your thing and it's not for you. And just try and put yourself in the other person's shoes. Try and have that empathy... Even if it's not a big thing, make it a big thing, because that can motivate somebody to be like, you know, that was worth it.” — Jordan [70:31]

---

Notable & Memorable Moments

• Simon’s vivid metaphor for PDA as an “invisible force field” [10:15]
• Honest admissions of nearly “peeing themselves” due to avoidance, underscoring how fundamental the struggle is [29:08]
• Humorous takes on household chores, car washing, and the “revenge time” cycle after being forced to do something unwanted [18:30, 30:45]
• Jordan describing keeping a bedside table clean as his “final boss battle”—a comic yet poignant illustration of PDA’s impact [23:36]
• Both hosts rallying for increased awareness, compassion, and realistic accommodations for neurodivergent people and kids: “Celebrate the wins!” [71:49]

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [08:19] — What is PDA, and why is it misunderstood?
• [10:15] — How PDA manifests in daily thoughts and behaviors
• [15:48] — The ‘book analogy’—PDA and motivation
• [17:00] — Shame and trauma: “I’d rather be told off than embarrassed”
• [29:08] — Even basic needs (eating, toileting) become PDA battlegrounds
• [37:00] — Deadlines, procrastination, and ‘the adrenaline push’
• [55:13] — Support, understanding, and the power of kindness
• [61:14] — Making mundane tasks fun with incentives and accommodations
• [68:09] — Disability vs. laziness: self-acceptance and partnership balance
• [70:31] — Empathy, cheerleading, and advice for allies

---

Conclusion

This episode is a powerful, validating exploration of life with Pathological Demand Avoidance—layered with the warmth, wit, and lived wisdom of hosts Jordan and Simon. Their stories emphasize that neurodivergent struggles are real, pervasive, and worthy of compassion. By shifting language, embracing accommodations, and celebrating every success, we can create more understanding, empowering spaces for those navigating PDA and neurodivergence.

---

Top Quotes:

• “It's not about intentional defiance. It's about anxiety. It's about trauma. It’s about this need for autonomy that can completely paralyze you.” — Jordan [09:00]
• “Celebrate the wins, even if it's small—every win is a win.” — Simon [71:52]

---

Listen for:

• Honest, relatable accounts of everyday PDA moments
• Practical advice for partners, parents, and the ND community
• The message: You’re not alone. Celebrate every win, no matter how small.

For more, follow the hosts:

• Instagram: @theneurodivergentexperiencepod
• Facebook: The Neurodivergent Experience
• YouTube: @TheNeurodivergentExperience

---

Transcript

[A]

There are a million reasons people start therapy. A breakup, burnout, a new job, a new year. Whatever your reason, there is one place to start. Grow Therapy meets you where you are, with support that actually sticks. Whether it's your first time in therapy or your 50th, grow makes it easier to find a therapist who fits you, not the other way around. They connect you with thousands of independent licensed therapists across the US Offering both virtual and in person sessions, nights and weekends. You can search by what matters like insurance, specialty, identity or availability and get started in as little as two days. And if something comes up, you can Cancel up to 24 hours in advance at no cost. There are no subscriptions, no long term commitments, you just pay per session. GROW helps you find therapy on your time. Whatever challenges you're facing, Grow Therapy is here to help. So Sessions average about $21 with insurance and some pay as little as $0 depending on their plan. Grow accepts over 100 insurance plans, including Medicaid in some states. Visit GrowTherapy.comStartNow today to get started. That's GrowTherapy.comStartNow GrowTherapy.comStartNow availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. Why does every recipe I try need 18 ingredients, including a jar of something paste I'll never use again but will sit in my fridge for nine months? I just want dinner in the oven fast. That's why I love Blue Apron's new One Pan, Assemble and Bake meals. They send you fresh ingredients that are already chopped. All you do is put it all together and bake. That's it. No chopping, no weird leftovers. Just delicious, easy to make meals. Get 20% off your first two orders with code APRON20. Terms and conditions apply. Visit BlueApron.com terms for more, please. Hey, it's Raj and Noah and we're back with a new season of Am I Doing It Wrong? The show that explores the all too human anxieties we have about trying to get our lives right.

[B]

Because we're still doing a lot of stuff wrong.

[C]

But who isn't?

[A]

That's why each week we're talking about the topics that we could all use a little helping hit with. Whether it's making new friends as an adult, managing our emotions, or even dreaming.

[B]

We'Ll be talking to experts in their fields who are definitely doing things right so the rest of us can be a bit wiser and a lot better equipped to handle whatever life throws at us.

[A]

Subscribe now and listen to new episodes of Am I Doing It Wrong? Dropping every every Thursday, starting January 1st, wherever you get your podcasts.

[B]

And for the first time ever, we're gonna have full video episodes on YouTube. Because as long as there are things to get wrong, we're gonna be right here to help you do them better.

[A]

Love y'. All.

[B]

Welcome to the neurodivergent Experience podcast. A podcast where we share the lived experiences of neurodivergent people to help create a better understanding for our community.

[C]

Join us every week as we bring you honest, raw, and inspiring conversations with specialists, advocates, and individuals who know exactly what it's like to live the neurodivergent experience.

[B]

I'm Jordan James, a neurodivergent specialist, father of neurodivergent children, husband to a neurodivergent wife, and author of the Autistic Experience. And I'm joined by my best friend.

[C]

I'm Simon Scott. I'm an autistic ADHD broadcaster, actor, and advocate. Join us as we journey into unraveling the neurodivergent experience.

[B]

Hello. Hello, and welcome back. We are here. Neurodivergent Experience. Jordan James. Scotty Too hottie. How you doing?

[C]

Sticky.

[B]

Fan blasting. And I'm still like, it's not the.

[C]

Whole topic, but wait. Hot, hot, hot. Yeah, I think the sunshine, it's hot.

[B]

Yeah. I don't know if it's okay, but I am wearing the exact same T shirt as I was wearing yesterday, and I also slept in it. I'm just living in this one T shirt at the moment.

[C]

You have a podcast? You didn't have to tell anybody that. But I'm so glad that you've opened with a bit of an overshare, so thank you very much.

[B]

Oh, yes, it's this. I mean, this is what the episode is going to be about. But before we give away the plot, what have you been up to? What we've been doing?

[C]

What have I been doing, dude? Adulting. Me. Adults. Now. I know I had an unusual experience, mate. I've never had this before. It got to Friday night and I went, oh, it's the weekend tomorrow. I'm actually looking forward to the weekend because I've worked weekends basically my whole life, and I'm now four months into a job where I don't have to work weekends anymore. And on Saturday, I got up and I was like, I am free. I am free of my affliction. I'm finally going to cut the hedge that I've been putting off since I moved in. And I did, like, a little bit of garden and a little bit of Tidying them up on there with me little. A little dusty rag. Caris was bringing me a lemonade. I was like, oh, thank you, my lady. I've had, like, a real old sort of adult in weekend. And then I played golf on Sunday, and I shot the best round I've shot this year.

[B]

Oh, what'd you get?

[C]

I shot 80, so I was pretty gassed about that. So that's 10 over. So that's the best round that I've shot this year.

[B]

I've only shot very, very good for an amateur.

[C]

Yeah. So I'm getting there. I really want to break 80 this year. I've only ever done it properly once.

[B]

Being told off by my cat.

[C]

Sorry. No, that's all right.

[B]

Okay. He just looks straight at me. I was like, all right, all right, calm down.

[C]

It's okay. Another thing as well, in my week, Caris really now wants to get a cat, so she's in the, like, deep research.

[B]

There is no other cat other than a Maine coon. Every other cat pales in comparison, and every other cat is basically just a kitten. Maine coons are the absolute. As long as you don't mind the hair. And to be honest, it's not that big of a deal, especially if you've only got a cat.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And. But main coons, your cat's not called Zeus. He's called Zeus, King of cats.

[C]

God damn, that's a big boy.

[B]

Oh, there he is. The absolute is. They're so pretty as well, but they're not. They're not the oath. They're not the most friendly they can be, but they're. They're very, very autistic. It's very. I'm. I'm. I'm. You're. I'm on his time rather than he's on my time.

[C]

Yeah. But the thing is, though, is I would kind of, like. I've had dogs before and some of the sensory things that come with it and the fact that they go, walk me now. And I'm like, I wanna, but I can't. But I can, but I can't. It's.

[B]

It's hard owning a dog, especially when you have pda, which is what we are here to talk about. I would talk about my weekend, but I was working. And so that was it.

[C]

I was like, how was your week?

[B]

You're, like, moving on.

[C]

Go.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Cool. Yeah, I. I didn't really do much. And in the evening, Sylvia and I just watched King of the Hill. That is literally all we are doing at the moment is watching that Is my life now is. We are completing all 14 seasons of King Hill impression.

[C]

Yeah, he worked.

[B]

I'll tell you what, I'll tell you what, I tell you what. That boy ain't right.

[C]

That boy. Yeah.

[B]

I keep saying that to Ollie, my little dog.

[C]

That is like the funny thing about pda, it's like, take the trash out. No, father, that boy ain't right. Yeah.

[B]

By the way, just spoiler alert, Hank. It was definitely autistic. I looked at a Reddit feed that was like. No, I just think he's like, you know, he's really, really anal. And I'm like, you, have you never met an autistic person?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

That man has all the tism.

[C]

Yeah, he's a top tier tism.

[B]

He's a traumatized tism. Anyway.

[C]

Yeah, aren't we all?

[B]

We are indeed.

[C]

Yeah, aren't we all?

[B]

I can definitely relate to Hank Hill. So, yeah, we're talking about pda. That's pathological demand avoidance, that mystical thing that according to the nhs, does not exist, but we all know it bloody does. Now, I prefer the idea of it being called rather than a pathological demand avoidance. It's an obsessive need of autonomy. So I, I have this need for autonomy where I need to feel in control, but at the same time, so often because of it, I am completely out of control. What pathological demand avoidance is, is it's thought to be primarily driven by anxiety and a need for control rather than intentional defiance. Individuals with PDA experience intense anxiety in response to demands, leading to extreme avoidance behaviors. This avoidance is not a choice, but a compulsion often triggered by both external requests and internal needs like hunger or thirst. While anxiety is a key factor, the exact causes of PDA are still being researched with potential links to trauma, attachment difficulties and other co occurring conditions. Now, that's what the research says, which I'm pretty impressed with because it's, it's, yeah, it's pretty spot on. So I, I think we, we, we, we've agreed that we're gonna, we're gonna talk about what, what causes it for you. Like if I just gave you an example of just like any adulting thing, so I just say, like, okay, so you, you need to empty the dishwasher. What, what's happening in your mind?

[C]

Honestly, it's like a little force field has just hit my face. That's what it feels like. It's like, oh, I don't think I want to do that. And it's not like, oh, I don't think I want to do it. It's. How can I now convince myself that I shouldn't do it? I genuinely feel that force field just, like, go.

[A]

Thump.

[C]

It's like a glass door just hit my face. I went, oh, don't want to do that now. What? And I just sort of like, freeze. And I know I can do the dishwasher. And you know what? I actually quite enjoy doing the dishwasher. But right now I'm talking to you, and I'm having a fun time with my buddy over the little screen, and we're doing our podcast, and I don't want to empty the dishwasher, and now I don't want to leave my seat, and I'm kind of frozen a little bit, if I'm honest. That's how it feels. I feel like I've just been sort of like a big butterfly nets just gone over me, and it's gone. Right. We're not doing anything now, and it's not even the dishwasher. I'm now suddenly going, not only do I not want to do the dishwasher, if I move, then I have to do it, so I'm not gonna move. And I can almost feel my dinosaur hands kicking in of going, oh, no, I don't want to do that. And I feel a little bit. Sort of a bit tight. It's literally like an instant thing. It was like you just flicked a switch by asking me to do that. And I went, oh, no, I don't.

[B]

Think I will if I ask you in a different way. So if. If we're. We're living together and I can see the dishwasher needs doing, but I'm on my way out as, oh, oh, damn, I didn't have time to do the dishwasher, and. And you know, oh, we haven't got any place. It just. We just need to empty it. Do you think. Do you think there's a. There's a possibility that you. That you. That you could help me out?

[C]

I'm free. Yeah, of course I'll help you. I'm free.

[B]

Would that be cool if you could do. If you could just help me out with the dishwasher?

[C]

That.

[B]

That'll be so cool. Like, if. If. If you don't have the time, then I'll do it when I get back.

[C]

No, no, I'll do it right now.

[B]

There you go.

[C]

In that mud.

[B]

Because it's not a demand, it's not a task. It's a request at your leisure. It's. It's asking for a favor. It's it. Which is very, very different. Now that doesn't mean that I'm automatically going to be like, sure, no problem. Because a lot of the times I'll be like, yeah, yeah, I can do that. And then I'll forget adhd. I was definitely going to do something today.

[C]

There's no obstac on the way then.

[B]

And, and now, now I'm out flying a kite. I don't even know how I got here. I don't know what happened. I don't know where my day went. Now it's 7pm and now I've fallen asleep. Yeah, like life is just very, very strange when you are neurodivergent. Yeah, yeah, it's, it's really interesting because it is, it is that straight away, it's that lock brain that if, if you ask me to do a task or someone tells me to do a task, it's like my instant reaction is just no, and I don't want it to be no. And the worst thing is that there's my instant reaction to my own task. I go, okay, I need to go and clean my teeth. And I go, but that means I've got to do this, then I've got to do this, then I've got to do that, then I've got to do that, then I've got to do this, and then I've got to do that and, and my brain will turn that molehill into a mountain. It will just automatically, subconsciously, without me even wanting it to, it will just immediately become the most difficult thing I've ever challenged myself to do. And I've climbed mountains, but I wanted to climb mountain. I, I chose to climb mountain. But even when I give myself a task that isn't something I particularly want to do, but it's something I need to do, my brain just automatically denies it. It's, nope, that is not what you want to do. So there's that, that part of my brain that just really, really hates doing anything that I'm not enjoying. And that definitely comes from the baby brain, dude. It definitely comes from that part of my synaptic pathways that are just still there that says I just want to be entertained. Anything that might bore me, anything that I might find too challenging. So the anxiety kicks in, the boredom kicks in, the, the, the, the overthinking, the catastrophizing kicks in. And every aspect of that demand becomes intensely more difficult for me to get my head around. And this all happens in a click, like a flash, just like that. And most of the Time. I can get through it, but it is. It is so weird how it just happens.

[C]

You know what it makes me think of? And I've got this sort of, like, written in my notes. Have you ever read a book that you're really enjoying? Like, really, really enjoying? And.

[B]

Yeah, it's called the Autistic Experience. It's by.

[C]

Nice plug. But you know that feeling of when you pick up a book and you're into the story and you're really enjoying it and the chapters just fly, you know? Yeah.

[B]

There's another book is a little different from the rest.

[C]

There is that feeling, isn't there, of the page burner and you can't. You can't put it down. Now. I have an opposite sort of feeling with books where, say it's like, oh, you have to read this book for university, us for school. You cannot write your essay unless you've read the book. And I'm looking at a chapter and then suddenly you're checking a few pages in front to see when the next chapter is, and then you're looking at the rest of the book and you see that big wedge of pages and you're like, oh, off. Yeah, that is pda. That's what it feels like. It's that. Oh, look at all that. Oh, bugger that. I'm not doing that.

[B]

It's the idea that you've got to read it and remember absolutely every single thing in that book.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Even as I'm saying it, it makes my tummy feel funny.

[C]

Yeah. I feel on edge even talking about it. I feel slightly on edge.

[B]

Do you always feel like whatever someone's going to tell you, you have a fear of failing at it as well?

[C]

Oh, dude, that is the. That's the big one for me.

[B]

I'm definitely not going to do this properly and someone's going to be annoyed at me because I didn't do it properly.

[C]

I would rather be told off for not doing it than being embarrassed at doing it wrong.

[B]

Yeah. God, that. Yeah, that. That is definitely the trauma side of it. Yo, dude, people have been bloody mean to us for us to end up like that.

[C]

Oh, God, there's like. There's there's so much like, it even makes me think of, like, I was talking about doing the garden this weekend. I got up and I just did it. I just got on with it because I was like, oh, I want to do it, but I have made every excuse under the sun not to do it to the point of. I was like, oh, it's too hot. The Hedge will burn if I cut it off. Why am I telling my son that?

[B]

I'm like, it's rained.

[C]

It'll be soggy. Like, some of the, like, the mental gymnastics that I've put through myself to kind of do it. And then one day I just woke up and went, today is the day. I am. I am welcome to do it. But, dude, if my. If I was playing a video game at home and it's a Saturday, and then my dad comes up to me and goes, could you cut the grass for me? Like, right now?

[B]

Yeah, good luck.

[C]

But the argument that used to happen because of it, and even to the point of we'll go in one step further. Yeah, I go and cut the grass for my dad, and I hate every second of it. Even though I like cutting the grass. I hated every second of it because he told me to. And then later that night, I won't go to bed when I meant to go to bed because I want the hour that I lost on my game, cutting the grass. So then it's almost like I have, like, revenge time of going, well, I missed out on the thing that I really wanted to do, and I'm gonna get back up myself, but now I'm not gonna sleep. And I'm having PDA over sleeping because I know I have to, but I want to play my game because I did earlier. And it all just sort of loops. It just like, if I think I've got it, I think it's gone, but it hasn't gone. It'll get revenge on me later in the day. I just have these sorts of. It's never not there. You know, it's like it'll go away for a little bit, and then it'll rear its head. It'll go, remember that thing that you wanted to do that you didn't get to do? We want to do it now. So put your tea down and go and play your game.

[B]

It's embarrassingly crippling. I mean, it is my main disability because it affects every aspect of my life. So a lot of my other disabilities, physical, mental disabilities, they affect certain things in my life at certain points in time, depending on, you know, where I am, what I'm doing. But I feel that PDA just. It's like a shadow that just follows me around constantly. It's always there. It's always bothering me, is always stopping things just being easy breezy. Nothing I do is easy breezy. Everything seems to be a challenge to get over this hurdle. So everyone is literally running down a track Going, oh, I've got to do this today and I've got to do that today. And they're just running. And occasionally they might trip or occasionally they might have to jump over, you know, a small hurdle. I feel like I'm just doing the hurdles is one after another after another after another, like everything. So the only time I feel fully relaxed, fully, like I'm, I can just. PDA is not following me around, is, is when I'm on, like, they're all inclusive tropical breaks, like we're in Mauritius or when we went to zero expectation. Grand scenario. Yeah. We get out of bed, we everything, like breakfast is there, it's all done for us and we just lays around, maybe go swimming, maybe walk around the town if we feel like it. There's no expectation, there's no demands. There's just do whatever you want. You basically are pampered and you're looked after like you're a little kid. And that's, that's when I'm the most happy, is when I'm just being a little kid where I don't have any adults telling me what to do. And I don't. And the worst thing is, is that when I'm telling myself what to do, I'm the adult telling my inner child what to do. My inner child who has the PDA is the one that's, that's going against adult me. So I'm constantly in a battle between my child and my adult self of, do you really want to do that? And I'm like, yeah, I, I. And I'll give you a quick example before we go for a break. Literally, my side table in my bedroom, I've, I've done it really nicely. So I've got my, I've got a Halo sword lamp, which is full size. So cool. I've got a Pennywise doll, which is creepy and awesome. And then, and he's got these weird creepy hands. And in between his creepy hands, I've got a Georgie Pop character. So it's like this doll is like holding Georgie's head. And next to it, I've got my Halo Master Chief helmet with a tiny little Cortana thing. And it's, it's cool. And I promise myself I'm gonna keep this clean because I love it. Because I've never, never been able to keep my side table clean. It's always had mess and stuff on it and it, it's clean as in tidy. But my God, the dust, dude, the dust collects. So I'm like, I want to Clean this. I'm so proud of it. I like it so much. I love looking at it. I put it together. That's my stuff. I want to clean it. A week, a week has gone by and I'm like, why have I not done this? Why have I not just done it? And I'm annoyed at myself. And while I was at work, Sylvia messaged me saying, oh, don't worry about your table, I've done it. And I was like, oh, why? Like, I, like, I can't.

[C]

She's about to do that.

[B]

I can't be annoyed because it's really sweet because I know she knows I struggle, but at the same time, I really wanted to do that because I wanted to get the sense of achievement, because the sense of achievement that I get just from doing a day to day task that I have got over this PDF. I'm the winner. And especially that one. It was bothering me for a week and I'm like, I'm the winner. I've done it. It's like beating a final boss on the hardest video game you've ever played. You just like, yes, I did it. And that was. My final boss was just cleaning my bedside table and Sophia took it from me.

[C]

Overwrote, you say? Even started again.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, God, yes. She completed the boss for me and was like, oh, I just thought I'd do that thing for you. And I'm like, that was so sweet. But, you know, but yeah, she, she is very, very sweet. Or she's very ocd, which is also true. She does have oc. So me not cleaning it was. Is. I don't know, because it could come across as, oh, you were just leaving it until you know that your wife is going to clean it for you.

[C]

And that's the trauma talking to you. That's somebody else's voice. Exactly.

[B]

No one in the world's knowing except all the people listening to this podcast. Oh, no, my secret is out. I just, I sit around just doing nothing until my wife does everything for me. Not true. It's, it's just so difficult. And, and I just, I wish people could, could understand it. But I guess that's, that's why I'm hoping enough people will listen to this and, and share this and tell other people about it, because this is the reality of having this pathological demand avoidance. It's, it's crippling, dude.

[C]

Yeah, it absolutely is. And I know you don't want to, but I'm going to take us to a break now.

[A]

When you think about meal kit companies. What do you see? Probably long, complicated recipes and subscriptions you can't escape. But with the new Blue Apron, we're doing meal delivery differently. No subscription needed, faster, easier meals and the same dedication to quality we've always had. Shop 100/[e-mail], get 50% off your first two orders with code apron50. Terms and conditions apply. Visit blueapron.com terms for more. Hey, it's Raj and Noah and we're back with a new season of Am I Doing It Wrong? The show that explores the all too human anxieties we have about trying to get our lives right.

[B]

Because we're still doing a lot of stuff wrong.

[C]

But who isn't?

[A]

That's why each week we're talking about the topics that we could all use a little helping hit with. Whether it's making new friends as an adult, managing our emotions, or even dreaming.

[B]

We'Ll be talking to experts in their fields who are definitely doing things right, so the rest of us can be a bit wobb wiser and a lot better equipped to handle whatever life throws at us.

[A]

Subscribe now and listen to new episodes of Am I Doing It Wrong? Dropping every Thursday starting January 1st, wherever you get your podcasts.

[B]

And for the first time ever, we're going to have full video episodes on YouTube, because as long as there are things to get wrong, we're going to be right here to help you do them better.

[A]

Love you.

[C]

This episode of the Neurodivergent Experience is brought to you by RTN Mental Health Solutions, with up to a five year waiting list for autism and ADHD assessments via the nhs. And that's even if you get a referral from your gp. Getting an assessment in the UK has never been harder, so if you're like me and can't wait anymore, going private may be the best option for you. RTN offers online assessments for kids aged six right up to adults. To make it more accessible, RTN can offer payment plans up to five months, you can access their remote services from the comfort of your home anywhere in the uk. And RTN offers group and one to one counseling a private route to access ADHD medication following the assessment and will even fight for you if your GP doesn't accept the results. So if you live in the UK and can't wait to get an assessment, go to www.rtnmentalhealthsolutions.com and use the discount code RTN23, making it even more affordable for all of our listeners to get autism and ADHD assessment. Welcome back to the Neurodivergent Experience. Simon Scott, here as always with partner in crime, Mr. Jordan James.

[B]

No, I don't want to do it anymore.

[C]

We don't want to do it anymore. We said we will, so we're here. You're all welcome. So our experiences with pda, we've discussed a couple here, but there are some simple. It's so simple. But I was thinking about this when we were discussing sort of putting this episode together, about how it affects, like, everyday life, right? I have to tell myself to go to the toilet every day. Like, I will hold myself to bursting point.

[B]

So, so relatable every day.

[C]

Like, I. I will not go for a tinkle until I'm literally nearly piddling myself.

[B]

Oh, I've nearly. I've nearly crapped myself. And. And I get to that point where I'm literally squeezing my cheeks together on the way to the toilet because I leave it to the very last second sometimes.

[C]

And that's so such a simple thing. You would think, right? But it really isn't. And it goes deeper than that. I can be sat here and I'm doing a little bit of work and I go, oh, I've left lunch a little bit late today, but I'll just finish this little bit of work that I'm doing.

[B]

Dude, it's like, we have the same brain.

[C]

Just finish this little bit of work. I'll just finish this.

[B]

Yeah, I'll just do this next bit. I'll just do this next bit. I'll just do the next mission.

[C]

I'll just do the next finish.

[B]

It's like 4 o' clock and you just.

[C]

Your stomach's eating itself, babe.

[B]

Where did you. Oh. So many times Sylvie's walked through the door and I'm like, where the hell did you come from?

[C]

She's like, why have you not eaten lunch? And you go, my tummy.

[B]

I was in the middle of a game.

[C]

Yeah. Six hours ago. Yeah. Oh, so they're like just little things. But another thing that I keep doing, and Carrie said it to me this morning and I felt that the, the, like the sting of shame. A little bit and a little bit embarrassed. And I had to tell myself that that's just. That's the trauma, man. But it's not me. And I hate washing my car. I hate washing my car.

[B]

I don't wash my car. I. I have. I pay other people to wash my.

[C]

Car, but I don't take it to other people to wash my car either.

[B]

No, I also don't do that until Sylvia's like, you have to do it. You have this. I don't like going through the car wash thing either, because then I have to queue and then I have to wait.

[C]

And sometimes it doesn't work.

[B]

Just the. Even the idea. Even though it's really super easy and they do a really good job. The. Just the idea of just doing that. Even. Even though I'm already going there to go to the gym, because there's a car wash right next to my gym and I'm already going there, but the idea of me doing it. So the best thing for me to do is get to this. Because. Because there's a hand car wash right next to the garage, which is the automatic one. So I'd rather go. And I pay more, almost double just to have someone wash it. And then I'll go in, go to the gym or go shopping, I'll come out and it's done. So someone else has done it. That I can just about manage.

[C]

But I also don't like that really awkward moment where you're sat in your own car and somebody's cleaning it. Because I'm like, I could have just done this.

[B]

No, because they do it while I'm.

[C]

In the shop, see? But I. See, that's why. Maybe that's why what I need. But it's that thing of me sitting in the car and then I go, well, I could have just done this. Why am I getting somebody else to do it? And then I'm almost sat there looking at the bloke going, sorry, no, I.

[B]

Feel so awkward watching someone wash my car.

[C]

Sorry about that.

[B]

I get. I get a whip and just get on with it. I'm paying you for this.

[C]

Faster, boss man, faster.

[B]

Jesus.

[C]

Genuinely, I think it all comes down from there. Used to be so many Saturdays when I was home from school where my dad would be like, can you wash the car, son?

[B]

Oh, God.

[C]

I used to drag my feet. It used to get to the point where you just be like, fine, I'll do it. And I'd be like, no, no, I can do it. I can do it. I can. I can do it.

[B]

I do it for money. Like, if. If anyone ever asked me to wash a car, I'd be like, yeah, all right. Fiverr.

[C]

Oh, you're cheap.

[B]

Yeah, but I mean, that was when I was like, 10. So 34 years ago, technically, that would.

[C]

Have been like 4 shillings and 6p.

[B]

But that's like 45 quid now. Yeah, yeah, just buy a new car.

[C]

But, yeah, little. So it's like almost like little things like that. And it always seems to come back to not wanting to sort of like, be told off. It's like, even like, I remember homework. I used to come home from school and be like, oh, you've got to do homework. And my brain. And I, I've had, I had arguments with my parents about this. I was like, I've been at school all day. Why do I now need to come home and do more schoolwork? But you have to kind of. And I'm like, then why am I at school all day if I'm then going to come home? And I said, do you come home from work and keep doing work? Dad was like, sometimes I'm not talking to you.

[B]

Don't you chime in.

[C]

Don't you hit with logic. But that all those sorts of things. I, I, I, I implore anybody, right? You were saying at the beginning of the show, the NHS doesn't recognize pda. I implore anybody to try and understand this as it's everything. It's not like, oh, I get PDA on xyz. It's everything. It's my alarm goes off in the morning. Get out of bed. No, no, you need to clean your teeth.

[B]

No, no.

[C]

You need to gel your hair, you need to get a haircut, you need to trim your beard. You need to go and get your eyes tested. You need to go and get that weird thing that you've not definitely been to the doctors about checked.

[B]

Is everything all the doctor thing, dude, this I know so, including myself, so many neurodivergent people and that. And they make it even more difficult nowadays because they try and streamline it by saying, oh, yeah, you can book online. And I'm like, right, you do know that that will never flipping happen. I was, I just got used to ringing you. And now. And now you're putting a whole new thing for me to get over. Like, I have to. Oh, my God. Like, are you. People do not understand, like, just be having to ring someone, like, okay, so you, your, your phone contract, some. They've overcharged you, right? You've been overcharged. You've been charged for something you didn't want. You need to ring them to get that money back. So you're not ringing them for a favor. You're not ringing, you need that money back. They've overcharged you by 50 quid. That's, that's a good chunk of change. And you're like, what the hell? I need to ring them, dude. That should be the simplest thing that should be straight on the phone. I'm ringing you up. As soon as I've got a spare moment, I'm finding out what happened to my 50 quid. If it was that easy, if there, if there was no pda, if PDA is a myth and we're just making it up as we go along, that phone call is made immediately. And the only thing that my PDA effects is me doing chores because, you know, I'm a lazy dick and it's just not the case. It's for me, it's my money. It's money I earned. It's money for my family, it's my money and they've taken it. My sense of justice alone should override the PDA of, like, I need my money back. But it's not that I don't do it. It's the amount of energy, the amount of energy it takes to just make that phone call is insane.

[C]

And then the bastards put you on hold.

[B]

Oh, don't even go. There.

[C]

Is the sound of fucking hell for me, dude. I will die and I'll just hear that music and I'm like, oh, no, I'm going the wrong way.

[B]

You are 70th in the queue.

[C]

Dude. I had a text from my doctor the other day, right? I've moved house, moved out of the old area. And it goes, you have 30 days to contact your new GP and get signed up. How many days left did I have until I did it, Jordan?

[B]

On the day.

[C]

On the day.

[B]

Procrastination, dude, that is the only ultimate thing for, for all of us. If someone says it needs to be in by the 12th, it is getting done. It is getting done and then sent off on the 12th at 11:59, like, just by the very end of the day.

[C]

But the thing is, is we'll do a great job, but it will be near the, the deadline. Like, I, I, sometimes I thrive off a deadline. Knowing I've got a deadline actually makes me go, oh, I haven't got a lot of time. I need to get going on it. But if somebody says to me, oh, you've got six months, just get it in when it goes, when it's done, I'm in danger. That's not gonna go well.

[B]

I keep saying to people, if you want me to do something, don't. Don't give me a long period of time. If you want it, give me a short period of time for it to get it done. And especially when people are like, oh, yeah, could you do that thing? But, you know, if you don't get it done. It's fine. And I'm like, well, then I won't get it done then, because you've just told me that it's fine. And then I'll just feel guilty. And I literally had this, literally yesterday is with a friend of mine. He wanted me to. He's doing a photography degree, and he wanted me to review his work. So as a photographer, I peer review his work and his project for his final hand in. And I. He was. I need it by the 14th. And I did it. I did it last night. I did it last night because I was like, I'm. I'm gonna make sure that I at least get it done at least a day before. Two days before.

[C]

I'm recording on the 13th.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Y. It's not past the deadline. We're all good. We're recording on the 13.

[C]

Looking down the barrel of the deadline.

[B]

Yeah, you should know. You should just be soothsayers. And. And it's interesting because he told me this, like, a month and a half ago, and I'm doing it, like a day, two days before he has to hand it in. So it's not even that I was meant to give it to him by. That is. That's the day he's got to hand it in. So I've got to give it to him, and then he's got to go through it and. And make sure I, you know, my spelling's correct, which I guarantee it's not. So I did it last night, and I got to a point where I was like, I think I did a really good job. To be honest. It's. It's so annoying because it's like a train. I feel like it's like a big, heavy steam train. Every time I want to do something, it just takes so much energy just to get going. But once I get going, I'm in the groove and I'm fine. I'm absolutely cruising.

[C]

Do you find with your pda, though, just using the sort of steam train analogy? Once I get going, PDA will then kick in, and I can't stop. It's like, once I get into a rhythm of it and I get going, I start doing too much. It's like on Saturday, I start doing the hedge, but then, oh, I need to do the grass as well. And then I need to do this, and I need to do this, and I need to do this. And then Karis goes, oh, we're going out at 2. You haven't got time to finish it all. That was like, oh, no. And then just getting paralysis by analysis because once I've started, it's like almost going, oh, I want to move the furniture around in this room. And then you move one piece and then you go, oh, but I need to hoover under there. And by almost doing completing a task, other tasks reveal themselves. And once you, once the rhythm's going, once there's steam in the train and there's loads of coal in there and the engine's hot, you've got to wait for it to cool down again. Like, that's something that I really struggle with because once I get through pda, I almost get into a rhythm and the PDA goes, well, we're doing this now. You wanted to do it, you're doing it and trying to deviate away. It's.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, just, it's, it's almost like trying to stop the train, but just like an immediate stop. If it's going so fast, you've got to give it time to slow down. Nothing breaks immediately. And yeah, you, you, you, you're spot on with that. It's, it is like, well, once I'm in it, and then another demand comes up and then my PDA that I've got over is now being affected because of new pda. Because every single thing that we do is going to be governed by pda. It's going to be overlooked by pda.

[C]

It's like a health and safety officer or something, isn't it? It's like literally there with its clipboard going, well, have you done this? Or you can't do that until you've checked this and you can't do that until you've done that. And.

[B]

Well, that's the problem, being the modern Homo sapien is the fact that back in the day where we evolved, we didn't really have a lot to do. So it was like, well, if you don't do this, you'll probably die. So you just gotta go on with it. And now because, because we have so many things to do during the day. Even if it's like, I've got my day off and it's just day to day tasks like putting your socks on or, you know, put your clothes away at the end of the day, you get changed, you got. And my clothes will end up on the floor or they'll end up being thrown in the cupboard. And I'm, I love my very, very neat cupboard. Everything's hung up. All my jerseys are in a row, my hoodies are in a row. I've got Jordan T. Shirts here, I've got turtle T shirts here, I've got super dry T shirt. Everything is in order. But in order to get to that point, you have no idea the brain Olympics that I have to go through just to get to the point where I put a T shirt, put a, get a T shirt, put a hanger in it and hang it. That should be the easiest thing, dude, but it's not.

[C]

And the cruelest thing about it as well is once you've done it, your brain goes, well, that was easy, wasn't it?

[B]

Yeah, like, like literally the amount of times I will lambast myself for being lazy, calling myself lazy.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I swear to God, if anybody calls me lazy, you crush me. It crushes me because I'm like, yeah. Oh God, I'm rubbish. I'm pathetic.

[C]

And I'm like, yeah, because when, when you tell it yourself, it becomes real, doesn't it? And that's just the.

[B]

Yeah, well, it's crazy. I've got a full time job. I'm a full time dad. I'm a full time husband. I'm a full time advocate. We do this as well. And this is, this, this is for awareness. This is, this is not our job. Podcasting is, I mean, it's your job, but you do other podcasts. You don't make your money from this podcast. You make your money from doing other things. We do this because we want to. Because even this, I will get days where I'm like, oh, dude, if I.

[C]

Didn'T have you to do this with.

[B]

I'd give up long ago.

[C]

Give up a long time ago. A long, long, long time.

[B]

We keep each other going. We, we are because, because of our friendship and because you are literally, I, I've got like, you, you are in my top 5 of people. Like, thank you.

[C]

Nearly got a middle.

[B]

Top 5 of people.

[C]

Yeah, nearly on the podium.

[B]

And don't, don't ask which kid is bronze, because it depends on which one's done. It's like, it's like it depends which one did the dishwasher, but. Oh, God, it's, it's, it's crazy that if it, if it wasn't, if it wasn't for other people, I, I think that I'd be pretty bloody useless. But yeah, getting, getting back to the, the doctor thing is that I, I know so many autistic people who have got serious issues, like, serious issues. And, and I'm like, just go the doctor. So I've, I've got a mate of mine and I know you're Listening dude who has had a problem with his knee for years, and I'm talking at least four to five years.

[C]

That's four years too long, isn't it?

[B]

The doctor is. Is just down the road from him. It's really not far. He has a car. He can just go to the doctor.

[C]

I'm in solidarity with you, bro, whoever's listening, but, oh, my man.

[B]

And look, I can't say I'm any better when it comes to certain things. I will try everything I can to fix myself before I end up going to the doctor. But, dude, go to the doctor. It's a problem. You need to go to the doctor.

[C]

And he's listening to this somewhere.

[B]

Oh, no, I know, I know he listens. He's one of my best mates and. And I know he's listening and just go to the doctor, dude. But, yeah, it's. It's crazy. It's like I've got another mate not listening, so I can say whatever I like.

[C]

And until he tunes in his ogre.

[B]

Hall, this is about me. And I'm sure I've talked about it before. It's like he had the same pair of glasses for six years because he and his eyes were getting worse and worse and worse, and he didn't want to go to the opticians because it means he had to go and get his eyes tested. So just that simple thing of getting your eyes tested and then getting a new prescription because it has to be updated every two years. And he said he was just sitting there suffering with the, like, itchy eyes and tired eyes because his prescription wasn't strong enough anymore, that he would suffer through it rather than just book an appointment at Boots or wherever it is. And it's. I don't get angry at them. I don't get annoyed at them. I smite heart just.

[C]

You just want to help breaks.

[B]

Yeah, Because I know. I just feel that because I've done that so many times, but it's. It's detrimental to our health. It doesn't just make things harder. It can literally. And. And I. And I say this in. In the most serious way. It can kill us.

[C]

Oh.

[B]

Because what if you had a pain in your side or a pain in your back or a lump or something like that, and you're like, oh, I just put it off. But what if that is cancer? What if that is cancer and the PDA is putting you off calling a doctor? Because trying to get hold of a doctor nowadays is like trying to find the Holy Grail. It's. It's it's so insane as the bloody bridge keeper.

[C]

Blimey.

[B]

Yes. It's so insanely difficult to get an appointment for.

[C]

For.

[B]

For an average person, let alone somebody who. And I don't use this word lightly because I don't like it, but I. Suffering. Suffering with pda because that. That could kill us one day.

[C]

It really could. And there are so many, you know, talking about it as like a 3D spectrum of PDA. Right. There are so many things that are constantly having to fight through and it can go from life threatening to just an inconvenience, but it affects everything on that scale. It really does. And like you were saying, there's certain things that I should probably have just dealt with. It's like I've got this thing with my bloody gas bill. They keep messing me around with my account and thinking, it's like, what you've got to do is ring us. And then when I did ring him and I was. I was on the phone for an hour and it never got dealt with. My brain's going, we're never doing that again. Oh, dude. I'll give you an example before we go to the break, because I needed Caris's help through this moment. The new Liverpool kit came out. I was gassed. It's made by Adidas, which is the brand I like the most out of sportswear and. And was so excited to get it. It's nostalgic. It reminds me of one that had when I was younger. So excited. So I went to the shop. Didn't only just buy myself the home one, bought myself the away one. I was like, I'm going to get a number on the back. I'm going to get the Champions League patches. You know, in my special interest, I'm stemming on in the queue. I'm so excited. We had to queue to get into the shop. And before I got there, Carys was like, I'm not. I'm not queuing to go into a shop. I'm not queuing to go into a shop. Her PDA kicked in. I was like, but this is like the only reason that I've come out today. I really, really want to do this. So we had to do a lap of the shopping center. And eventually she was like, no, you're right, this is why we're here. Let's go in the queue. It'll only be a moment. Flew through it, got into the shop, picked up everything, got in another queue. So we're both there, like, all right, we're excited, but this is this is taking a little while. Got to the counter, paid for the kits, paid for the, the badges and everything. And the guy went, the number that you want is sold out, so you'll have to come back and get it. PDA's already kicked in. I pay for it. I go, I'll just get the patches, mate, I'll do this. I pay for it. And he goes, all right, mate, if you come back in two and a half hours, your kit will be ready. And hands me a raffle ticket. Oh, what? And we were both left the shop and we were like, I was so annoyed with myself, I got so frustrated with myself, but I wanted, I wanted to make a thing of it.

[B]

Yeah, nice. It was special. I mean, Liverpool have only ever won one championship.

[C]

You mother. On that note, I'm gonna take a break.

[B]

Firewood. Firewood can, can be, can be expensive here in a minute.

[A]

There are a million reasons people start therapy. A breakup, burnout, a new job, a new year. Whatever your reason, there is one place to start. Grow Therapy meets you where you are, with support that actually sticks. Whether it's your first time in therapy or your 50th, grow makes it easier to find a therapist who fits you, not the other way around. They connect you with thousands of independent licensed therapists across the US offering both virtual and in person sessions, nights and weekends. You can search by what matters like insurance, specialty, identity or availability and get started in as little as two days. And if something comes up, you can Cancel up to 24 hours in advance at no cost. There are no subscriptions, no long term commitments, you just pay per session. Grow helps you find therapy on your time. Whatever challenges you're facing, Grow Therapy is here to help. Sessions average about $21 with insurance and some pay as little as $0, depending on their plan. Grow accepts over 100 insurance plans, including Medicaid in some states. Visit growtherapy.com startnow today to get started. That's growtherapy.com startnow growtherapy.com startnow availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

[C]

Have you ever felt stuck in patterns that don't serve you, struggled with stress, or wanted to connect more deeply with yourself? Then I have to introduce you to a friend of the podcast, Ashley Bentley of Integrated coaching, Breathwork and hypnotherapy. Ashley is a highly experienced clinical hypnotherapist and coach specializing in working with neurodivergent minds. Through a unique blend of integrative coaching, breathwork and hypnotherapy, Ashley helps People rewire subconscious patterns, regulate their nervous systems and step into more empowered versions of themselves. Whether you're dealing with addiction, anxiety, burnout or struggles with self acceptance, Ashley offers practical and science backed tools tailored just for you. Her unique methods combine neuroscience, storytelling, subconscious transformation to create real, lasting change. Jordan and I can personally attest to the profound and transformative effects of her sessions which have been life changing. She does all of these sessions online, meaning she can work with you no matter where you are in the world. If you're ready to break free from old patterns and start living with more clarity, confidence and connection, go to Bit ly Ashleynde to book a free consultation or learn more. Welcome back to the Neurodivergent Experience. Simon Scott here as always with Mr. Jordan James. And we've been talking about PDA. Do you want to keep talking about it, Jordan?

[B]

No.

[C]

All right, well, thank you for listening.

[B]

Bye everybody.

[C]

Well, we were going to try and talk about in this section things that sort of help us and I can definitely say having somebody who understands me has been the absolute game changer. Having my partner sort of, you know, put things into place and be accommodating has helped me so, so much, so, so much. Even if it's just sending me a little text going, don't forget there's washing in the washing machine. Loads of love hearts. That is so much more helpful than her just going, by the way, you need to empty the dishwasher or you need to just do the washing machine today. Yeah, like buttering me up really, really helps.

[B]

Yeah, it, it is, it is so often about the way we're told rather than the demand itself, you know, so I, and, and I guess it just, it also depends as well because if, if you try and make, so if, if you've got a kid, so all the parents out there, if you got a kid who's pda, which is pretty much most kids in general don't want to do the things you tell them, let alone a neurodivergent kid with PDA, then that's like 10 times more difficult is you've got to incentivize them with dopamine. You've got to make whatever they're going to do fun. And I do believe that like a reason, one of the many, many reasons we struggle with food is because of pda. So I, I've got another mate who's like, oh, I don't eat fruit or veg. And you're like, what do you mean you don't eat fruit or vet like any no, he's like, no, I don't eat fruit or veg. And this man, the chisholm. The chisholm is strong in this man.

[C]

Crisps. Crisps, nuggets.

[B]

Oh God, dude. Because he got. I don't eat mushrooms. I'm like, that is neither a fruit or a veg. That is a fungi. He was great at parties and there's a, there's a lot of room for mushrooms. And I know dad jokes and if so his, his partner slices them up really, really thin and puts them in like Bolognese and stuff like that.

[C]

The old secret food.

[B]

Secret food. It's like you don't know what you're getting, but you are getting it. It's really interesting because he's, oh, no, I don't eat tomatoes. I'm like, but you're eating tomato ketchup. And he's like, yeah.

[C]

His brain just goes, what's that made of?

[A]

Whole?

[B]

But yeah, it's, it is, it is strange to me because obviously there are many, many reasons why, why we don't eat certain foods, but just to sort of blankly go, I don't eat any fruit or veg. That to me is more like the analogy side of being autistic. I've made that decision and that's it. But that is definitely PDA as well. That, that. And again, driven by anxiety, driven by trauma, all these things can be associated to that. Like food. When you're a kid, the worry, the worry about the textures, it all comes down to your brain going, that demand avoidance, go, I'm not eating that. I'm just not eating that. So you know, PDA literally affects that, what we eat. It just, it affects everything. And I can't, I can't emphasize this enough. So if you make food fun or if you make a task fun, if you make something fun and give rewards rather than punishments for not doing things, make a reward based system. I don't mean moddy coddle them and things, you know, you've got to set boundaries, give them a sticker and a lollipop. But when it comes, when it comes to chores, when it comes to doing things around the house, when it comes to brushing your teeth, things like this, we have to make accommodations for neurodivergent kids because of pda, we have to do it and it's. I will make accommodations for myself when it comes to cleaning my teeth because one thing I don't like is the certain toothpaste, which just make my, my tongue feel weird. They just make, I don't like the sandy ones. Yeah. So I, I make sure. And, and I, I do this a lot. I buy the, the, the. The flavored toothpaste.

[C]

Tasmanian devil.

[B]

Make it fun. Make it fun. Now I don't have that all the time. A lot of the time I'm. I'm feeling like, yeah, I can just, I can just have the mint toothpaste if Sylvia's bought the nice mint toothpaste. But I don't really get involved in buying toothpaste. I probably should. I should probably buy my own toothpaste. But a lot of the time, you know, because Sylvia works in town, so she just popped the shop next to and just grabbed some toothpaste. She's a dental nurse, so she also gets free samples as well.

[C]

She got the hookup.

[B]

Yeah, she's got the hook up, the free samples. And yeah, it's, you know, so it's, it's just about making those accommodations for my brain to not feel like the, the task is, is a waste of time or it's, it's like the amount of effort that I'm gonna put into it is. It's not gonna pay off, you know, because like I said, it is a huge. Everything is a huge effort. It's like, no wonder we're so knackered all the time. No wonder we have meltdowns. No wonder we're so fed up and tired, because everything is a huge task. But if, if we can make those tasks have a reward it and it's not spoiling it like that, that. Because, because there is that line we say, okay, so going, going to the supermarket.

[C]

Oh, this is what I was gonna say. Yeah.

[B]

Horrific. It's a horrific thing. Especially when you're a little neurodivergent kid. So you, you can put things in place, you can headphones and, and you know, make something fun.

[C]

Sunglasses were the game changer for me in supermarkets.

[B]

Yeah. Big time. Yeah. But you can just say, look, you, you can have a toy. Just a little toy. Each time we go, we can have a little toy. So if you can't afford that and it gets, you know, you're on a really tight budget, then make it something else.

[C]

Comics were the one for me, mate.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, God.

[C]

Were the one that got me, like, I used to get a match magazine, which was like, about football. So it was my special interest.

[B]

Yeah, I used to get that and.

[C]

Sort of like tie it all together. And one of the big game changers for me is getting the food boxes, like a hello Fresh or Gusto or other products are available. But getting something like that that goes, I would like to make a really nice, you know, chicken parmesan with a salad and this. You tell me to go to the supermarket, buy those items and bring it back. I will forget something. I will have a horrible time and then I won't want to cook it when I get home. But having it delivered to my door in a box with all of the ingredients measured out exactly how I need them, and I can just throw it all away when I'm done has been a game changer. Like, taking the shame and the embarrassment out of my limitations has really, really helped me with pda. Like, really, really helped me. I struggle going into the supermarket, so my partner will go with me and she will walk me in a specific sort of way. And we always seem to forget something. But rather than when I do forget something, she'll just go, oh, you forgotten something again? It's, oh, never mind, we'll get it next time. And she really sort of softens the mental blow for me because I am so hard on myself. And even like when the car hasn't been washed, one of the things that we had this sort of morning as I took her to work is there was a spider web on one of the windows. And she was like, oh, look, there's a spider's moved into your car. Rather than going, it needs washing, she went, oh, you'll have to pay rent soon if he's there longer. And she made it fun. And it made me kind of go, yeah, I can get my head around that so that I can testify that does really work. But it's the sort of putting things in place and making it fun. Like, I love my hair, I love gelling my hair. I don't like washing my hair. I never have. I don't like the sort of sensory feeling of it. Even though I love swimming, I love water, I like being in the shower, but I don't like washing my hair. I don't like all the soap and sort of getting in my scalp and how it feels. So Caris has helped me find shampoo that I like and she wasn't a dick about it. She was like, well, what sort of smells do you like? What sort of textures do you like? Do you want an all in one? Do you want this? And she took it off my plate and just helped me with it. And now when I wash my hair, I like it because it's taken all of the little micro tasks that come with it away. I just have to get in the shower and do it rather than thinking about how much I've got left, or does it need a refill, or does it feel good? Does it smell nice? Does it make my hair feel good? She's, like, helped me with the research and just sort of took it off my plate, which I know not everybody can do for themselves, but it's something that is super, super helped me of just making it fun and sort of taking it off my plate. Whereas there's things that she struggles with that I take off her plate. Because that's sort of the balance of our relationship.

[B]

Yeah. It's so important to have that when you're just there for each other, because there are things that I'll. I'll be really good at, or I'm. I'm good at motivating myself enough to be able to get over the PDA so I can push myself past it, because I know that once I. Once I get that train out the station, I'm. I'm gonna. It's gonna be easy a push. But. But Sylvia, you know, she will. She will struggle to even get the train out the station. So I know. I know what she particularly struggles with, you know, like holidays, for example. I will organize every holiday. I book every Airbnb. I communicate with, you know, the hosts. I, you know, drive, and I'll. I'll find the directions and I do everything. I know what she likes. We're very similar in tastes. She trusts me fully. When we bought this house, she didn't even look at this house. She didn't come to. I came to this house. I talked to the guy, the guy showed me around. I looked around and I. Because she'd already seen the pictures on the Internet. And I rang her up and I said, and this is like 20, 23, 22 years ago. And I said to her, this is the place. I said, trust me, this is the place. I said, well, this. This is the place that we can afford. Yeah, this is the best we're going to get for our money. Because we'd looked at so many houses and, And. And she just went, I trust you. I trust you. And it worked out. We love our house and everything we've done inside our house, and it's like. But, like putting up shelves and things like that. That Sylvia is. Is so good at diy. She will just build stuff and change stuff, and it's not even stuff that I want. It's not like I said, oh, we need this change. Go and do it. She'll want it changed. Whereas me, I'm Just happy just to have whatever I had. But she's so good at it. She makes it look better. She upgrades the house all the time. And it, and it's, It's. It's so cool that we have these awesome different abilities that we can. We can help each other every single day get over that, that initial hump of pda. Like, even when it comes to, you know, getting help from mental health. And, you know, I'll help her book, you know, sessions and things like that. And, And. And I just literally have to guide her to the gym. Like, you must sit here, and I'll set the whole computer up for her. I'll get everything. I'll get her headphones. She just.

[C]

Harry still. She looks at me, just goes, oh, yeah.

[B]

She'll just literally sit in the chair and I'll do absolutely everything. So all she has to do is be on the video call to. To whoever she's talking to. And it's, it's just doing that for your partner, doing that for your kids, making everything, not, not. Not doing everything for them, but knowing the things they particularly struggle with and then just really helping them with those things, because then you can get help.

[C]

In reciprocation and a thing to think about as well. Whether you're listening to this on your own, with your partner, with your family, for kids, with kids, whatever is. The things that we neurodivergent people are good at, we excel at. So if you can find a sort of support network or a partnership where all of your strengths are combining, covering each other's weaknesses, you create a really strong foundation. Because the things that I'm good at, I excel at, but the things that I struggle with are disabling. Whereas I'm fortunate in that I found a partner who's kind and caring and accommodating. But her strengths also really complement my weaknesses. Like when we bought the house, Karis really struggles with paperwork. She struggles on the phone, and she struggles with legal stuff. And I'm great at that because I do it as part of my work. So when we bought the house, she viewed it and loved it, and I loved it. And then I kind of just came to her with the paperwork, went, sign here, sign here, sign here, sign here, and here, sign here, sign here and here and here and done. But then when it came to moving, that's when she took. Took over and was like, well, we're moving this here. That's going away. That's in there. That's moving that day. That's moving that day. Because that's what I'm not good at is change, like, extreme change. Taking a house apart freaks me out. And it really messed with my head, having things in boxes. But she knew that it did, so that. So she then made, like, accommodations and helped me there. So when it works, it really, really works. Sort of supporting each other and pairing up and sort of, you know, one of the things, especially being an unmasked person, I think we'll end here, is accepting your disabilities. I've had to come to terms with the fact that I am disabled. I'm not lazy, I'm disabled. I struggle with things and I've had to really let that in, soak it in, and not be afraid to hand something over to somebody without ruminating or, you know, that rsd that perception, thinking how what they think of me, I've just had to sort of, in a way, let go. But that's been very freeing.

[B]

Yeah. I think the last thing I want to say is that if. If you're neurodivergent and you're living with a neurodivergent person or neurodivergent kids, everybody can be everyone else's cheer. Cheerleader, just. Just to have that encouragement. So rather than, oh, you've finally done that thing. Well done. I've been asking you for so long. Yeah. Oh, you know, took your time. Just remember how difficult things are for you when it's not your thing and it's not for you. And just. Just try and put yourself in the other person's shoes. Try and have that. The empathy levels that we know we have, but they kick in with certain things and aren't there for other things. But, yeah, just to be a cheerleader. So, like, if your kid does manage to do the washing up, just. Oh, my God. Thank you so much. You have no idea how much I appreciate that. Even if it's not a big thing, make it a big thing, because that. That can motivate somebody to be like, you know, that was worth it.

[C]

Even if it's a small win. Celebrate it.

[B]

Win.

[C]

Every win is a win. Celebrate the wins.

[B]

Right?

[C]

Thank you, you lovely people.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

We'll be back for another hot Topic. See you later. Be kind, everyone. Take care. Until next time.

[B]

Nightly by.

[C]

Thanks for tuning in to the neurodivergent experience. We hope today's episode sparks something for you, whether it's a new idea, a bit of validation, or just a moment of connection. Remember, new episodes are every week, so be sure to join us for the next one for more conversations and insights. Into the neurodivergent experience. If you've enjoyed this podcast, help us grow. You can do that by rating and reviewing this show. Your support makes a huge difference in helping us reach more people who could benefit from these conversations. You can connect with us on social media, find us on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok. Just search for the neurodivergent experience. Thank you again for listening and until next time, take care of yourself. You're not alone in this journey.