Jordan James (2:56)

I'm Jordan James, a neurodivergent specialist, father of neurodivergent children, husband to a neurodivergent wife, and author of the Autistic Experience. And I'm joined by my best friend.

Simon Scott (3:09)

I'm Simon Scott. I'm an autistic ADHD broadcaster, actor and advocate. Join us as we journey into unraveling the neurodivergent experience.

Jordan James (3:21)

Hello, hello, hello. Three hellos and welcome back. How is everyone doing? Scotty, how you doing?

Simon Scott (3:30)

Do you know what, my friend? I'm, I'm pretty good. I'm the best that I've been in a couple of weeks though, if I'm, if I'm truly honest. It's. I don't like January, man. I literally was just walking the dog but an hour ago of you and I sitting here and I turned to Caris and I was like, I cannot wait for January to end. I just, I don't like it. It's dark, it's gray. I find it hard to get out of bed at the best of times, especially when it's pitch black outside and I just feel like I just want to hibernate, sit under a duvet and wake up when the, when it's bright. 7am Please and thank you.

Jordan James (4:08)

I agree. But only mostly because I'm going to New Zealand on the 1st of February. So I really, really can't wait for this month to. I want to be in Hobbiton as quickly as I possibly can and live in a fantasy world where I can escape the reality that America is now basically the Empire. Yeah, they're, they're, they're the baddie and by like their own.

Simon Scott (4:35)

We're going to build a Death star. The billion Death Star. Blow up the moon. I don't like I looked at the moon. I thought, what a bad guy.

Jordan James (4:42)

We're taking, we're taking Greenland and Greenland.

Simon Scott (4:46)

Moonland. All the same to me.

Jordan James (4:48)

Like, he probably would believe you.

Simon Scott (4:51)

I heard there was cheese. Lots of cheese. America's cheese. We're going for the cheese.

Jordan James (4:55)

I mean, Christ. Yeah, I, I think, I think it's, it's, it's important to, to understand the, the issues that are going on in the world because they, they can lead to what our subject is today, which is slow burn meltdowns. So not meltdowns like oh snap. Which can happen because of a slow burn meltdown. Not something that, that, that might even be visible to anyone else. But it's something that we tend to go through that no one else can really see. And I think it's really good to talk about that from our perspectives, simply because just for a lot of parents out there, you know, they, they, they can obviously see their child have a meltdown, maybe smash something, maybe break something, maybe just like burst in tears, crying. We've talked about those types of meltdowns, but I think in order to help the child before that happens, it could be an anxiety thing. And you could see the buildup. It's not always a slow buildup, but often it really is. So I think by talking about it today, we might be able to help people, even in themselves, spot that slow meltdown, that slow burn meltdown before it does pop. And certainly with the way things are going in the world, there's going to be a lot of people out there that are very, very rightfully frightened. And, and I'd imagine there's a lot of people that, that are having slow burn meltdowns because of social media and so much information and so much negativity, even to the point. And we'll talk about this in the Hot Topic. People are arguing online about Autistic Barbie. I mean, Jesus Christ. Like, there are, there are bigger things to worry about, but we'll, we'll get on to that in the next episode. But it just seems like everyone's on tenterhooks. Everyone's just angry or upset and. Yeah, so we have Ashley here, who is the master at helping us feel like we're not going completely mad and want to punch walls and stuff.

Ashley Bentley (7:24)

Oh, hello. Hello. Well, I'm glad I can help. Yeah, this is an important topic to talk about. We've talked about it before, but, but as we were saying before we started recording, there are so many different types of meltdowns and different ways that they can present themselves and different ways that they build up and come into our life. So I think today's discussion is going to be really important. So I'm glad to be here with you all today.

Jordan James (7:55)

Yeah, I mean, Scotty, this was your idea. So why did you feel like this is, this is what we want to talk about? Because I, I thought it was a great idea.

Simon Scott (8:06)

Well, we've. On this show, you know, we're now into the third year of doing this show, which is awesome. And it's, it's, it's. It's so cool to look back on all of the episodes we've done and thinking about what we want to do moving forward. And I really want to make sure that if we're covering like the big topics, you know, like PDA or EDS or meltdowns that we really delve into it and have nuance with it, because meltdowns have nuance. They're not just the big bang. It's not just the explosion. We all experience them in different ways. And, and one of the reasons as to why I want to talk about this is I didn't realize I was in a slow burn meltdown until I had the pop. Until the Coke bottle went bang and I was sat. And, you know, we. I'm comfortable talking about this. I spoke about it briefly the other week, but I rang you, dude, in floods of tears the other day, didn't I? Yeah. And it all came from going back to work and over Christmas. Well, I worked right up until Christmas Eve, and then Christmas Day happened. And you're sort of in that weird, what day is it? What time is it? How much shortbread have I eaten? That can't be good like that. You're in that sort of, of realm where time doesn't exist and you're just getting fat and sassy. And it got to last week. I sat down at my computer on Monday and I went, oh.

Ashley Bentley (9:41)

How do.

Simon Scott (9:41)

I do this again? And it wasn't just that feeling of how do I do this? It's knowing what I have to do. I looked at my job list of everything that I've got coming up over the next six months, and I, I was freaking out. And it wasn't that I, I can't do it because I can do it and I can do it well. It was knowing that I had to do it. And I felt like I'd gone from being in this sort of ethereal, nice little Christmas zone where family are around and everything's chill and you're watching movies to suddenly a plane landing on the tarmac. And my legs have got to go. I've got to get up to speed. I've got a land. I gotta land this thing and get going again. And all through Christmas, I knew this was coming. I knew what my jobs lists were. I kept checking emails and knowing that I had this coming. And I could feel from head to toe in my body the bar come down and that roller coasters, click, click, we're going up. Click, we're going up. Click. Here comes the big dip. It's. You can see it coming. And I could feel it across my entire body. I felt the bar come down. I felt my stomach tense. I felt my IBS start to, to, to kick in and all of these are warning signs for my body that there's a meltdown coming.

Jordan James (10:59)

Yeah.

Simon Scott (11:00)

But it frustrated me. And this was part of why I had a meltdown. I was getting so upset with myself because I know myself and yet I didn't. I didn't preempt it. I didn't recognize the warning signs. I started the work on the Monday was literally here, heavy, heaving, going, it's just an email. You can do this to. Then having to ring my big bro and just being like, dude, I have gone from sitting at my desk and going, I'm finding this really hard today, to suddenly going, I think I need to hand my notice in because I can't do this job. Like, it was extreme reaction, and it genuinely felt like I was just clicking up a roller coaster. And then I hit the big dip. And as soon as I went down, I was out of control. My brain was manic, my body was tense, I was clenching, and I was finding it really hard to just regulate myself. And it was like it happened from the Christmas Eve right up until then. I could feel this, this tension building, this. This sense of like, existential dread. And it frustrated me so much that I know so much about myself. And I like to think I know quite a lot about a neurodivergent brain as well that I have in here. And that fed it, that was gasoline on the fire. It was, you know, better than this, Simon. You know that you should look after yourself. And that just adds to the meltdown. And I have never really heard anybody sort of talk about a slow burn meltdown before. But when I look back on my life, it is the catalyst to my burnouts of being in slow burn meltdown with these little micro explosions over periods of months to a year. And then something huge will happen in my life, like with me. My nana died and that was it. My body was like, nope, we're done. We're clocked off. Slow burn meltdown is here to stay. And now that's burnout.

Jordan James (12:56)

What, what, what about you, Ashley? From, from your perspective? And I'm, by the way, I'm just. I'm so glad I was there for you, dude. When. When you need me too. It was, it was good timing because I think I was on my lunch break and I was like, that's good.

Simon Scott (13:10)

I know. And you know what, man? Just to sort of add as well is I have had to learn to lean on my support network when that happens.

Jordan James (13:19)

Phone a friend.

Simon Scott (13:21)

I genuinely was like, oh, Jordan's at work. I don't Want to bother him. And I was like, no, if Jordan knows that I've had a meltdown and I've. And I wanted to ring him, and I didn't. He'll be more upset than if I do, so just ring it.

Jordan James (13:32)

Yeah, I. I have that with a lot of my friends. They. They always like, oh, I don't want to bother him. I don't want to bother him. And then I. I found out they were in hospital for two weeks, and I'm just like, and now you're bothered? I'm like, did you not want to tell me you went to hospital? And they were like, oh, no, I didn't wanna. I didn't want to worry you. I'm like, instead, you've just upset me that you cut me out your life. And it's like, that wasn't the intention. And I'm just like, well, it certainly feels like that. But anyway, enough about me. Ashley, from your perspective, what sort of. What sort of experience have you had with these slow burn meltdowns?

Ashley Bentley (14:08)

Yeah, well, you know, funnily enough, as I was trying to think of one, suddenly I realized, oh, yeah, actually, I had one last night because it was such a. And this is. This is the really interesting thing. You know, Simon, you. You mentioned. God, you know, I should have been. I should have been more aware that it was leading to this. You know, I should have seen the signs and know it. But then again, you know, we. We've got so many things going on in our life, and I think it can be really difficult to know what ongoing thing is actually leading to a meltdown. What ongoing thing that you're. You're pretty much managing. It's like, okay, I'm. I'm kind of managing this. I'm kind of. You know, I'm not. And then until. Until boom. Oh, gosh, I'm not. So, you know, the last couple months have been. The last few months have been really sort of strange in my life, just in terms of my health. I've been dealing with more pain than usual. Ongoing pain, chronic pain. And that can really affect your experience of the world. And of course, my fiance's father isn't well, and so that's been going on for the last couple months as well. We're getting to a better place of managing both of those things. So things feel like they're on the app. So again, this is where it's sort of, like, surprising. If I'm on the app, surely I'm not leading to. I'm not having a slow burn Meltdown here. But one of the things that had been sort of simmering in the background is, gosh, you know, my partner and I haven't really done anything socially for a while now. Haven't even met in town for a drink or with friends or anything like that. So we've been trying to think of a few things that we can do. And I've been thinking, okay, right, health seems to be in a good place. Maybe I can do this. And then yesterday I was thinking, do you know what? Actually, everything that we have planned right now, I think I need to let my other half know that I think I can only do one. There's like three or four different things that we've been talking about. I think one is realistic right now. So I was going to have that conversation with him, and then he came home last night and suddenly he just very casually happened to mention that somebody wanted to meet up with us on Friday on a plan that we already have that was just going to be him and me. And I just immediately was like. I just started crying and I was like, what? And I was surprised with my reaction. I was like, this is. This is not proportionate to what he has just said. This is a positive thing. This is somebody that I haven't seen in a while that I would love to see. But it just suddenly came in and it was like, oh, God, I have been slow burning here and this. And then it's just all too much. And I don't even. I don't have the words to say what's even going on in my mind. I was confused. I was surprised by my reaction. It only, thankfully it wasn't a huge meltdown. I was able to recover quite quickly. And then, and this is, I think, what's going to be really important about today's conversation. I followed the breadcrumbs because I was so surprised about what was that all about. And then I followed the breadcrumbs and I was like, oh, yeah. Yes, this has been simmering. That I thought I was keeping it under control and things felt okay, but clearly it was just ready to. And I think the reason why I had such a big reaction last night, the straw that broke the camel's back was an old wound of I don't want to let anybody down and other people's expectations. And actually earlier yesterday, a friend wanted to meet up with me separately that I had to say no to that. I always feel bad when I have to say no. So, boom. It's like suddenly that old wound of, oh, I'VE let somebody down, just really ignited. So I think these slow burns are really, really useful information for us so that we can take these on board, follow those breadcrumbs, and start to sort of figure ourselves out.

Simon Scott (18:27)

Yeah, absolutely, Ashley. And it makes me think as well, in that essentially you were ruminating on something which then feeds into alexithymia, which are all really big triggering points that create meltdowns for us. It's like you're ruminating on something. Something happens. We cannot find the words to explain why we are so reactive to whatever somebody has just said or suggested or put in front of us. And when alexithymia doesn't allow you to have the words to express where you are, it just. It's gasoline on that fire, isn't it? And then suddenly it goes from being like a fuse that goes and then hits a big old stick of dynamite.

Ashley Bentley (19:09)

Yeah, that's.

Simon Scott (19:09)

That's really how it. How it feels.

Ashley Bentley (19:12)

Absolutely.

Simon Scott (19:12)

From what you're saying to me.

Ashley Bentley (19:13)

Yep, yep, you've. Yep, that's perfect. That's absolutely right. You're absolutely correct.

Jordan James (19:19)

Yeah.

Ashley Bentley (19:20)

So, yeah. What about you, Jordan?

Jordan James (19:22)

Well, I mean, I. I would rather. I would want to talk about it from a parental perspective and how I've noticed it, like, mostly with. With Sophie. Now, before I go into this, I've expressly asked Sophie's permission to be able to talk about her meltdowns, and she has given me her full permission to talk about her meltdowns. So. And that is how it should be to everyone out there. Do not post stuff on social media about your kids unless you get full permission to do so. Because children don't belong to you. You are there to look after them. They don't belong to you. They're not. What do you call it, accessories. They are people, and they have rights. So I just wanted to point that out because there's a lot of stuff on social media that really triggers me with. With some parents, not you wonderful listeners, probably, but. Yeah, so I've got a full permission. So the things that are going on with Sophie, that over the years, what I've noticed is we've talked about it before of, like, neurodivergent Jenga, you know, having that. You know, we're. We're very, very jokey in our family. That's. That. That's the one thing that a lot of people are surprised about, is how much we take the piss out of each other. Like, it's just all the time, and it's all fun and it's all Banter. Over the years, there is two versions of Sophie. There is a version of Sophie where I can be sarcastic and cheeky and taking the piss and she's like, oh, very funny. Or she'll do it back, straight back to me. And then there's the version that I'll do the exact same thing with zero malice, and she will be really, really upset. And it's clear to me now, as she's grown older and now I've understood neurodivergence more, that those were the times where she was in that slow meltdown, where she was having bigger problems that she wasn't talking about, that she. Maybe she didn't even understand what she was going through, where she was just very, very touchy all the time. And now I know how she felt because that's what I've been through. That's what I felt like. Sometimes people can joke with me and I'm just not in the mood. Now. Everyone can go through that. Everyone can have a bad day. Everyone can have a bad experience. Maybe you're on your way to work and you got splashed by a puddle and you. And people are going to laugh at you that, oh, you know, would you like a towel? And you're just like. You either gonna be like, do you know what? Fuck off. Or you're gonna be like, yeah, well, it's just one of those things.

Simon Scott (22:22)

Yeah, it's a coin flip.

Jordan James (22:23)

It is a coin flip. But when it's a constant thing that can last for days, weeks, maybe months, I feel like I've been in a permanent meltdown. I know I go on this about this a lot, but it is a big, big part of my life. I feel like I've been in a permanent meltdown or at least years and years. I was in a permanent slow burn meltdown after my brother died. Like 100. This. This lasted for years. And I haven't. You know, I've worked a lot, especially with Ash. I've worked a lot through my trauma, you know, building this perfect sort of place where I can lose myself in, where I feel much, much safer. Because the world does feel very dangerous to me because it's so unpredictable. And I think when you're going through that as a young woman, for Sophie, the last thing you need is. Is. Is a dickhead dad, like, taking the piss. But I. I now recognize it better. So I all, like, I'll do it. And then. Or I'll. Or she won't get her own way. Because there is a. There is a fine line that a Lot of people don't see with their child, or especially from outside perspective, I think a lot of parents do see it, but especially from outside perspective, they'll see a child as being a brat, maybe like a spoiled brat. Oh, you didn't get your own way and you had a temper tantrum. That may be the case. I'm not saying it's not, but I think that when I've seen it with my daughter, yes, it's gone through my head. What a brat. You know, how. How could. Like, your mum was just trying to help you and you screamed at her. Why? Why? What? What? Because what? She wouldn't do exactly what you wanted because she didn't have time. And I'd be like, you know, this is. And obviously when it comes to Sylvia, I get triggered because Sylvia is my absolute world. So even when my daughter takes on my wife, I will take my wife's side. But then I have to see it from my daughter's perspective of like, this isn't attack on Sylvia. This is a meltdown. This is her having a slow burn meltdown in internal agony that she is going through. And I recognize it the best now simply because Sophie is able to now explain it to me. So yesterday they were going to go to the gym. I was going to relax. I had a tattoo all day yesterday. I was very, very tired. I came back just chilling out on the bed, trying to do some stretching. Sylvia was going to go to the gym with Sophie and Chris. And all I heard was just very angry noises coming from downstairs. And then Sophie's like, I'm not going, I'm not going, I'm not going. And I was like, oh, what? What has happened? And it's literally Sylvia just wanted to drive. She just wanted to get there and come back and then eat. She's had a long day at work. Sophie wanted to drive because she's driving, she's practicing. And because Sylvia said, no, I just want to get there. I just want to do it. Sophie. Sophie was acting like a brat to. To the perspective. She's like, well, I'm not going to the gym then. And Sylvia's like, oh, that's lovely. Thanks so much. So Sylvia end up going on her own, which is, you know, it's not nice. And I'm upstairs and I'm just like, I'm staying out of this. I'm not dealing with it. And I just sat there and there's so many thoughts in my head, dude, of like, oh, like, how is Sophie ever going to. To be a grownup how is she going to deal with the world? I have such a huge worry because she does have these moments, like, quite a lot, and I worry, like, when she gets a job and she's working full time, is this how she's gonna be when. When her boss is like, right, I want you to do that. And she's like, but I don't want to do that. And her boss is, what will I pay you? Tough. Go and do it. Yeah. And then Sophie just goes into a meltdown. And it's. It. It definitely is a concern because I. I love my daughter. I love her so much, and I want the best for her. And as someone who's. Who has struggled in their work, has struggled with getting on with their colleagues, has struggled with PDA and just authoritarianism, I've had to just spend so long getting over it. And it worries me that she is doing this. But then I have to remember she. She only does this with people she's comfortable around. And that is, most meltdowns will happen to parents or two husbands wives, because they feel safe. And I'll just finish by saying, I sat upstairs watching my Stranger Things, hoping everyone's gonna leave me alone. And she came up and she had tears in her eyes. And she's like, daddy, can we just.

Simon Scott (27:42)

Go for a walk?

Jordan James (27:44)

I just want to go for a walk. And I was like, let's go for a walk. And we walked the walk to the chip shop. I bought her some chips. She came back. And when Sylvia came back, I didn't say anything. Normally I have to play intervener. And Sylvia's come back. She's like, I don't understand. What did I do wrong? And Sylvia's like. And Sophie said, I'm just so sorry, Mummy. I really, really didn't mean it. It's nothing to do with you. Do you know what the whole thing was about? It was nothing to do with anything that happened. It was the fact that she had made a post on her page and she had had three out of hundreds. She had three negative comments, and that crushed her. And I know that feeling because that used to do that to me. I don't give a shit what people say now, but it used to do that to me. And the. And that's what it was about. It was. She was in a slow meltdown because of these people, because they don't. Like, people are horrible on social media shit. But it's so weird. It's like it comes out in a completely different way. It has nothing to do with anything that happened.

Simon Scott (28:50)

So true.

Jordan James (28:51)

But. And it was. And it was, it was something completely different. So that is also something you've got to look out for with your kids when they do have a meltdown and they have it at you. It isn't. It isn't because of you. Maybe it is, but a lot of the times it probably isn't. It's something else. So don't blame your child. Like, my brain's going, brat, brat, annoying. But in reality, my by my brain is getting over that and just going, okay, there's something else wrong. So I, I need, I need to let her come to me or if that doesn't happen, I need to coax her into talking about it because that is the way. And Ashley, you know this. That is the way we help ourselves is by letting others in to our world. We have to talk about it.

Ashley Bentley (29:43)

Yes, yes. And so often there's a great saying, the issue isn't the issue. It's not always the case. Sometimes the meltdown is related to exactly what's happening. But so often it's something else. And so. Yeah. So well done. It sounds like that all really some big wins actually there for you. Just taking her to get some chips, just not saying anything. Let's just, let's just, let's just focus on regulation right now.

Jordan James (30:17)

Chips is fries for you.

Simon Scott (30:19)

Americans like going for a bag of chips to cheer you up.

Jordan James (30:24)

Well, I mean, crisps also cheer me up, but.

Ashley Bentley (30:27)

But well done to Sophie for following those breadcrumbs and figuring out what. What that meltdown was really about.

Jordan James (30:34)

No, no. So Sophie is amazing now understanding what is happening. It's just a matter of not letting others suffer because of it in a weird way. But again, this is part of our family and we're all together in it. So should we have a little break and then come back and I'll shut up and let you guys talk?

Simon Scott (31:03)

We'll be right back.

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Simon Scott (33:06)

This is a neurodivergent experience Public Announcement if you live in England and you or a loved one is waiting for an autism or ADHD assessment, you don't have to wait years. RTN Diagnostics is now part of the NHS Right to Choose scheme, which means if your local wait for a consultant led autism or ADHD assessment is more than 18 weeks, you can choose RTN instead and it won't cost you a penny. Jordan chose RTN for his own family because their care and attention to detail were second to none. They didn't just diagnose autism and adhd, they looked at the full picture, including pda, ocd, anxiety and more. The team is friendly, neuroaffirming and comprises many neurodivergent individuals so they truly understand getting started is simple. Download the GP referral letter and questionnaire from the link in our show notes. Take those to your GP and ask for a referral to RTN Diagnostics. If approved, RTN will be in touch within eight weeks to begin your assessment. Remember, this only applies in England and some exclusions do apply. RTN is not currently able to accept referrals for child ADHD assessments, so check the details before you start RTN Diagnostics, helping you get the answers you deserve without the wait. Welcome back to the neurodivergent Experience. We have the wonderful Ashley Bentley with us from Microsoft for Mondays and we have been discussing Slow burn meltdowns. And it's sort of a, a new sort of language for me in explaining a slow burn meltdown. Jordan, you were discussing sort of Sophie and if you're, if you're sort of comfortable with sharing Sophie. Where is Sophie at right now? Because she's, she's left university and that, that's, that's not easy. It's a scary world out there.

Jordan James (35:20)

Well, I mean, I, I was going to talk about this on another episode, but I can talk about it now. It's. Sophie has started her own mentoring company. As you know, she was doing mentoring before. She has clients. She's very, very good at it. And like I've said before, like the, like, Sophie goes through these things and then she understands what has happened to her and then that's why in the same way as we go through things and we can explain it, she is so good at helping people. She's such a, I mean, Ashley, you know how, how good she is. And yeah, she, she is a wonderful mentor and she helps young people, older people, you know, and so she's got.

Simon Scott (36:01)

A brilliant way of looking at the world and just sort of.

Jordan James (36:04)

She does. She's fabulous. She really, really is. So, you know, we will link in the, in the description, I guess Sophie's email and, and her website because now she is, she's trying to build her business and that is commendable. It's an amazing thing that she's doing, but obviously it's, it's stressful. It's a stressful thing. And even when she's getting clients and you know, she's, she's like, she's just so hard on herself. She's so hard on herself. I just wish that she would be able to just take each win as a win rather than each failure as the ultimate failure because everyone's going to fail. But it, it doesn't mean you've completely failed because you've got to have losses and wins. That's how life works. So she's taking the losses too hard and not appreciating the wins. That's what I'm trying to work on with her. But it's amazing because like with Sophie, she's so good at helping others and, but not always the best at helping herself, but she is working on it. And the fact is we shouldn't have to help ourselves. That's why we have, why we hopefully would have a support network. And that is definitely, definitely part of, part of my job as a dad.

Simon Scott (37:39)

Because what I can not to sort of speak on anybody's behalf in their 20s. But I have discussed this at length with Ashley in the. In my 20s, I did not match what I wanted to be. I felt like I had a lot of potential. I felt like I had a really good brain for what I wanted to do. And I didn't get the results that that me at 21, if I'd written a. A goals to do list, I bet I did half of them. But I did a million other amazing things and didn't feel the success from it. And I believe so much of my slow burn meltdowns, which led to long periods of burnout in my 20s, was the pressure to succeed. And that has caused so many of my slow burn meltdowns. Because Hindsight sees in 2020 and you don't realize you've had successes until you can reflect on it and see how successful it was. You don't feel it in the moment like there's no more. Frustrating thing for me as a human being in general is the night before I achieve something feels incredible and then when it happens, you go, I thought I'd feel different. I thought this would change something. I thought this would fix this or that. And when it doesn't, I went into a panic. And so many of my slow burn meltdowns, especially in my 20s, were, I'm not where I want to be, but I don't know how to get there. And I felt like talking to anybody about any of these feelings in itself was a failure because I didn't view people around me as my support network. I viewed them as competition. And if you're not first, you're last. And it was a very lonely place to find myself. And so much of what has helped me grow as a. As a neurodivergent person, but as a man, as a human, is accepting that. I have a lot of feelings about a lot of things and I have a lot of empathy. I care deeply about the people that I love in my life, but I also carry a lot of anger. I have a lot of resentment. I am guilty to be jealous of people and admitting those things or leaning on your support network or like Sophie did, having the sort of, I wish I had it at her age, that sort of maturity to go, it's not this, it's. This is such a. An incredible tool for a young neurodivergent person to have. I wish I had that in my 20s because I Jordan agree with you. Not similar in the sense of I didn't, I didn't lose somebody close to me. But I lost who I thought I was going to be. And at the time that's all I had. So when you don't have that sort of tetheredness to who you are and, and what you're going to be, I mean, dude, I went to a university. Like so many people of my generation, we were sold the dream. Go to university, study, you'll get a job, everything will work itself out. And suddenly you graduate and you go, what the am I gonna do now?

Grow Therapy Announcer (40:56)

Yeah.

Simon Scott (40:56)

And all of that pressure just sends you into this really unregulated, unsafe headspace.

Jordan James (41:04)

I feel like I want to have a meltdown sometimes because Sophie has been through interviews and she's got like the second round of interviews and they seem really positive and they're like, oh, you know, you exactly who we're looking for. And then a couple days later she receives the news that unfortunately she didn't get the job simply because lack of experience. I'm like, she's just come out of unique. She has a marine biology degree, she has an IQ of over 130. She's a very, very switched on young individual who literally has started her own mentoring business. And yet when she tries to get a job, they turn around and go, you haven't had enough experience, like life experiences experience, going to university, living on your own, you know, paying bills while balancing education, having to get a marine biology degree at Exeter University, which is not easy, and getting a 2:1 and being neurodivergent and having all the problems that you would normally get as a young teenage girl. To say that she doesn't have enough experience is fucking insulting. Okay, so what, she hasn't done your job before, but how is she going to do your job before if you won't give her the job now? And it is always, always triggered me that with these companies they won't take a chance on somebody because they're young. And it's, it's so asinine. It would, I feel like I want to have a freaking meltdown. Not because she didn't get the job, but because of the stupid fucking reason. Like you're perfect for the role.

Simon Scott (42:54)

Yeah, yeah.

Jordan James (42:55)

But you haven't done it before.

Simon Scott (42:59)

What? It's so difficult, isn't it? And Ashley, I mean, I'm intrigued to sort of hear your opinions on this.

Ashley Bentley (43:07)

Yeah, well, you know, our 20s, listening to both of these scenarios is, you know, very, very familiar to me in my 20s. And our 20s are such a, an interesting time because we're trying to figure out who we are, but yet we've also got a lot of other people's expectations in the mix, and we don't know which is which. Is this mine? Is this yours? Is this who am I? What do. And I think so often, many, many meltdowns are the result of worrying that we're not meeting the expectations that are. That we think are being imposed upon us, and that when you're in your 20s and you don't. You're still figuring out who you are. And, I mean, goodness, we never truly figure out who we are because we're always evolving. So, but especially, I think, in your 20s, it's a really confusing time. So I think while you're really trying to work on who you are, and then. And then you have all of these other expectations around you. I've finished university. Everybody's expecting great things. I better do great things. And, you know, and I was right there as well, you know, the youngest of a family of real high achievers, and I finished university. And it's so funny that the naivety. I was, you know, incredibly intelligent, but so naive in terms of, like, how the world works and things. And I just thought, oh, well, I did great at uni. That means I'll be great at life, and they'll roll the red carpet out for me, and I'm, you know, that life. I felt like, you know, okay, I've done the hard work now, so let's do this. And I got really, really smacked in the face of, like, eh, eh. Life is full of. As Jordan just gave an example of what Sophie's been through, really unfair moments happening left, right, and center. And you're like, hold on a second. Wait. I'm a good person, and I work really hard.

Grow Therapy Announcer (45:13)

This.

Ashley Bentley (45:14)

I shouldn't be, you know, surrounded by all this unfairness. But it happens. It happens. And so it's, you know, I know we.

Simon Scott (45:23)

This.

Ashley Bentley (45:23)

This wasn't meant to be a talk about our 20s, but I do think it is a really interesting time in our life where we've got all of these conflicting feelings going on, and we have these in other times in our life as well. But I think it's. It's a. It's a particularly impactful one in. In our 20s.

Jordan James (45:42)

Yeah, I think so. I was gonna say, I think what really drives me insane more than anything is that everyone keeps going about how this generation, you know, are weak or snowflakes or whatever the hell they want to use as an insult, saying, oh, you're not. You're not tough enough. You aren't going to work hard enough. And then you've got a young woman who is literally being like, well, I, I want to work hard, I will work hard. I will prove to you that this generation can kick ass. And they're like, yeah, but you haven't got enough experience. Make it make sense.

Simon Scott (46:16)

It's so difficult, dude. I remember when I was getting into the industry of broadcasting and it was so frustrating sitting in production huddles with people that, yeah, did have 20 years experience, was nothing that they were saying that I didn't understand or couldn't contribute to the conversation about. People looked at my face and they went, well, what the fuck do you know? And do you know? I had a producer who, when I first worked with him, we did not get on. He didn't like me and I didn't like him. And when I found out why, it completely changed our relationship. And he said, I think it's incredibly unfair that somebody as brilliant as you has been put in a position to fail. He said, because you're not being given the tools. Succeed. I says, well, how do I do that? And he said, patience. How can I just be patient? He said, you have got the brain to be a brilliant producer, but no presenter over the age of 40 will take you seriously unless you've got lived experience. He will look at your face and go, I've forgotten more than you know, and won't trust your judgment, won't trust your decision making and will literally just get somebody else eventually. And that kept happening to me. And he turned to me and he says, simon, he says, you will make an incredible producer. And I even think you'll make an incredible presenter. And he went, but not until you're 30. And at the time, that was a killer. I was like, what am I going to do for the next eight years? I'm just going to mooch around and just sort of figure it out. And he went, yeah, so just figure it out. Says, try new things. He said, don't just work here. He says, go work somewhere else. He went, try a different industry. Go learn stuff and come away. And it was incredible advice because now at 31, I look at myself and I go, he was right. He was right. But hearing that in the moment really put me in a spin because I was like, I haven't, I haven't got time to sort of sit and wait. And that was the sort of the burnout, the slow burnout is the, the justice, sensitivity of patience, of going, how do I give myself the grace to be patient? But not feel fulfilled. Like how, how do I, how do I balance that and that overriding feeling? And I'm sure Sophie feels it as somebody who would make a kick ass mentor. Not in five now, but then I can understand how somebody at a company who's 45 years old would look at her on a spreadsheet and go, nope. And that's not fair. But then it's weird. It's weird. I can so see how so many people can be stuck in this period of slow burn meltdowns when you don't feel fulfilled but you don't feel like you're doing the right thing. Because that is what killed me in my 20s.

Jordan James (49:16)

Let's, let's have one last break and then when we come back, we can, I want to talk about like trying to remember what it was like when we were, when we were kids. So from that perspective, maybe we can help some parents out there recognize it in their kids.

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Simon Scott (51:28)

Have you ever felt stuck in patterns that don't serve you, struggled with stress, or wanted to connect more deeply with yourself? Then I have to introduce you to a friend of the podcast Ashley Bentley of integrated coaching, breathwork and Hypnotherapy. Ashley is a highly experienced clinical hypnotherapist and coach specializing in working with neurodivergent minds. Through a unique blend of integrative coaching, breathwork and hypnotherapy, Ashley helps people rewire subconscious patterns, regulate their nervous systems, step into more empowered versions of themselves. Whether you're dealing with addiction, anxiety, burnout, or struggles with self acceptance, Ashley offers practical and science backed tools tailored just for you. Her unique methods combine neuroscience, storytelling, subconscious transformation to create real, lasting change. Jordan and I can personally attest to the profound and transformative effects of her sessions, which have been life changing. She does all of these sessions online, meaning she can work with you no matter where you are in the world. If you're ready to break free from old patterns and start living with more clarity, confidence and connection, go to Bit ly ashleynde to book a free consultation or learn more. Welcome back to the Neurodivergent Experience. We've been discussing slow burn meltdowns and it's been an enlightening conversation for me. I'm a verbal processor. I'm figuring it out as I'm talking about it. And we've got the wonderful Ashley Bentley with us from Mindful Mondays. And before the break, Jordan was discussing sort of how we can recognize this in our kids as parents or as, as family members or as friends and companions in life. And I'm really intrigued, Jordan, to sort of understand because we had such different upbringings and such different childhoods. What were your slow burn meltdowns like as a kid? Because you've discussed so many times how you never felt like you were out of one.

Jordan James (53:42)

Yeah, I, I would say that it's, it's hard for me to sort of go back and remember these things because I'll be honest, it kind of feels like, like I was just in constant fight or flight. It, it just felt like that all the time because every time I would go to school I was on the defensive and then every time I would come home, I wouldn't know what I was walking into. Would it be the, the mother that, that, you know, sings me, you are my Sunshine while stroking my hair or would it be the mother that. That throws cutnery in my face because I dropped a plate? I. I would never know what I was going to get. So I was constantly on tenderhooks. And then the same as in school, you know, was I going to have a day where the bullies left me alone and let me learn or was I going to have a day where I answered a question and everybody started throwing chewing gum in my hair? I just didn't know what to expect. So I think that I don't know if there was ever a point where I wasn't in some sort of slow burn meltdown because I never had a chance to recover from one to the other because it was literally constant. But the times that I can. The time, sorry, the times that I can specifically remember when I wasn't was when I was with my brother, when he would take me camping and he would take me to the cinema and he would play video games with me. So all the times when I was with him, that's the only time I ever felt safe. So when he, when he died, I had nothing. I had no safety, nothing. I had two years of anger and hell of just being the only way I knew how to deal with the world that was attacking me was to attack it the fuck back. And I became so angry and so violent because it was the only way that I could protect myself. And I had this hard, hard shell around me. And, you know, then Sylvia came along and changed everything. So that's. That was, my childhood was just never, never ever not feeling like I was ready to explode, but then always scared to explode, if you know what I mean.

Simon Scott (56:31)

No, I do know what you mean. And I always appreciate you sharing your experiences, mate. I know, I know it's not easy and it's. I really appreciate you sort of opening up. I mean, I'm intrigued actually. I don't, I don't know, really know much past your, your 20s. What were sort of these, these experiences like for you?

Ashley Bentley (56:52)

Yeah, well, I, I think my, my slow burn meltdown was kind of ongoing for a good long while as well because I was very out of my, you know, the youngest of three kids. Very, very, very sensitive, Highly, highly sensitive. Cry very easily. And that was something that used to upset my dad, that my dad had a really bad temper and I was really afraid of him. I mean, he never, you know, I got a couple of smacks on the bum, but there was never any violence. It was just his temper. And to a little girl, I was Just so scared. But if I cried, that would make him more angry. So I was always on this on edge of like, don't cry, don't cry, don't cry. And of course, when you're saying, don't cry, don't cry, don't cry, what do you do? You just, you know, you can't help it, but you cry. And I just. So it was just this continual. Yeah. Slow burn to meltdown of crying and then slow burn to meltdown of crying. It was just ongoing. I think this is one of the reasons why I sought solace in food and comfort eating that began quite early. And so, yeah, so if you're, I suppose to parents out there, you know, if you're, if you're seeing some comfort eating happening with your children, that might be a sign of some anxiousness to maybe sort of see what's causing that. So, yeah, so that was my experience. Simon.

Simon Scott (58:38)

No, that's a really good. Yeah, that's interesting actually, because I was like that. I was a bit of a comfort eater. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I would, I would regularly turn to, to something to feel nothing or to feel something. And that continued into my 20s. And I've not, I've not really discussed it much on this show, but I had an issue with drinks and drugs during my 20s and I'm sure, I'm sure I'll talk about it one day, but when I was a kid, I just wanted to do well that I wanted to be popular or get good grades or be good at sport. And I felt like I was a jack of all trades and a master of none. And I'm sure so many neurodivergent people are nodding along and agreeing with that. It's an experience I hear a lot of people share. And I felt like I was just like a B plus player as a kid. I never got like amazing grades and I was never amazing at sports, but I could, I can still now play anything. I sort of try my hand to. But I'm not amazing at anything really. And I used to get so frustrated with myself. Like I felt like I could do it and there was something that was stopping me from doing it. And now I look back on it and that's, that's obviously executive functioning issues that are rearing its head. And so much of when I was a kid, I was getting so frustrated with myself as to why can't I do it? If they can do it, why can't I do it? And so many of my slow burn meltdowns as a kid were through comparison. I was constantly comparing myself to other kids. I was like, well, they've got a big group of friends, he's got a girlfriend, he's on the sports team or she's got that role in the play. I was like, why am I always getting overlooked for everything? And that used to be really frustrating. And so much of my slow burn meltdowns, which kind of led into really depressive tendencies and feeling really low, was, well, what's the point? What's the point? What's the point? And adding executive function on top of that as well really stopped me from doing and being a lot of things that I wanted to do and be as a kid. And because I was so desperate to be good at stuff, I. I over, I overdid it. It's like when I hang out with people, I over like shared or overstepped and was too much. And then I would go into certain classrooms and teachers would either love me or they'd hate me. And I'd know it, I'd feel it. And I just lived in this state of confusion all my childhood. I was like, I'm a freaking alien. Like, when are my people gonna come and get me? And that is where I was in so much of slow meltdowns is that I was constantly in a state of upset. I didn't feel good about myself. I didn't feel like I was good at anything. And I kind of felt like a bit of a spare part, if I'm honest.

Ashley Bentley (61:46)

Yeah, it's like life doesn't make sense. And I think, you know, for our brains, we so crave needing to understand, needing to make sense of things. And when they don't make sense, it's just, it's so destabilizing.

Simon Scott (62:01)

Yeah. And my advice to sort of any parents would be just from sort of my experience of if your kids are interested in something, they don't have to be amazing at it to let them do it. Like, I really loved playing guitar and I love to sing. And I felt like just because of sort of. And it's, and it's not necessarily like my parents fault or teacher's fault, but they want you to be. If you're good at something, they, they push you. They really push you. And I know a lot of people do really well with that, but when I was acting, I loved it because it made me feel good. At no point did I say to anybody, I want to do this for a living. People told me, oh, it'd be such a waste of your potential and your talent. If you didn't do this for a career. So when it didn't happen, oh, you feel bad. Oh, you feel awful.

Grow Therapy Announcer (62:57)

Awful.

Simon Scott (62:57)

I had a guitar teacher who I loved going to. I was rubbish at practicing, but I had the ability where I didn't always need to as much as other people. And I used to wind people up because I'd not practice, I'd turn up and smash it. And the worst thing a teacher ever said to me was, you could be brilliant if you applied yourself.

Jordan James (63:17)

No, I heard that many times.

Simon Scott (63:19)

And suddenly it was like, well, if I don't apply myself, what a waste. What a waste of your talents. And PDA took it from me in a way of, I was like, well, I have to practice. I have to, I have to, I have to. And then as soon as you are in that state where it's not fun anymore, you can, you can, you can kill it. You can kill the joy from it. And that would be my advice to parents, is that if your kids are good at drawing or they're good at guitar, or they're good at sports, if the pathway opens up for them naturally, or they get scouted or they get asked to do things, then brilliant, let them do it. But if they don't want to do that, they just want to do the thing. Just let them. Don't, don't push them, you know, to, to be somebody other than just themselves in that moment, because they're just kids.

Jordan James (64:12)

No, I, I, I completely agree. So I was gonna say, I've, I've mentioned this when I've done school talks and things like this, and I've discussed, I've just had discussions with, like, head teachers when it comes to GCSes. Why do they do so many. Like, it's crazy that you can, it's like seven to nine gcse, and then you do two, maximum three A levels, and then you do one degree, one subject. So why, why did they make them do so much learning for so many different subjects at such a young age where, where so much development, especially during the synaptic pruning process. What, what a counterproductive way of educating. You've basically got these kids who have pruning in their brains, so their brain's only like half working anyway, and then they're gonna go through puberty, then they're gonna go through learning social situations, discovering their own sexualities and relationships and friendships and arguing with their parents and all the things that teenagers go through. And then you're like. And also, you've got to learn Seven completely different subjects all at the same time. And if you fuck this up, your life is ruined. And just like no one, no wonder kids are freaking having meltdowns because you add that to any kid, that's horrific. Now that. Add that to a hypersensitive, neurodivergent person who's not only not going through the synaptic pruning process the same, but also has the synaptic pathways of a fucking toddler. It's just disaster waiting to happen. So if you're a parent out there and your kid isn't just going completely insane and they're having a really tough time, that's the reason is because life has put so much pressure onto them. So maybe as a parent, try and put as least amount of pressure on them because at least they can have some relief from that pressure. Just some. And screen time isn't necessarily the worst thing ever, but it's a balance.

Ashley Bentley (66:41)

Yeah. And you know what a really interesting example of how even, even the best, most encouraging message can get misinterpreted by a beautiful autistic brain. And I'll give you a really wonderful example of this. This keeps popping up in my memories of. I think this was a really pivotal moment for me that I see show up now. So back when I was 8 years old, the neighborhood swimming pool, you had to have an adult go with you. You couldn't go on your own until you were like, I think, age 10 or something like that. But they did because I was there almost every day. They knew I was a good swimmer. They said, you know what, if you take this swimming test and you pass it, then you've got a pass that you can go on your own. So I was getting so excited. I knew I would ace it because I was just in the water all the time. And in the lead up, everybody was saying, just try your hardest, just try your hardest. So I was like, okay, so I've got to. And the swimming test was like doing a couple of lengths of the pool, and then you had to tread water for a few minutes and then do a few more lengths of the pool. Well, I got in the pool and I'm just. And everybody's watching as well. Everybody's cheering me on, like, come on, you can do it. And I was just like, I've got to try my hardest. And I just, I went off the bat. I mean, I just burned out so quickly because I was like, I've got to try my hardest, that I put all of my energy into something that I could have just leisurely done. Because I had this message. I had taken it way too literally to just, oh, you've got to give, you know, 110% that I, I, I failed it. I didn't pass it and it wasn't easy. I could have had I just done it. Normally I would have been absolutely fine. But because I got this message, try your hardest.

Simon Scott (68:39)

All right?

Ashley Bentley (68:40)

I've got to try. So be aware that sometimes certain, certain language can land in a very literal way with children and adults. So, so definitely keep an eye out for that. That really well can sometimes get misinterpreted.

Jordan James (68:57)

I think that reminds me of an episode of a cartoon that Sophie and I really love. It's, it's so, so neurodivergent. Cody. I, I comes in my mind, it's called Kiff. And it's, it's about like a, a squirrel. It's cartoon, it's like spongebob type cartoon. And her and her friend are sitting, eating hot dogs. And these are amazing hot dogs. And they look up on the sign that is selling the hot dog and the sign says, it doesn't get any better than this. And they have an existential crisis because when they finish the hot dog, they're like, wait a minute. My life doesn't get any better than this. It was a good hot dog. But seriously, nothing is going to be better than this. And because they take the signs so literally, the entire episode is about them having an absolute crisis of like, what is gonna happen to my life? Because nothing is better than a hot dog, apparently. It's really, really interesting. I highly recommend it as a TV show because it's very, very funny.

Simon Scott (70:01)

Oh, that hits a nerve with me. I got told that when I was younger. It's like, well, these are the best years of your life.

Jordan James (70:07)

Oh yeah. Like they are maybe, maybe for my back, but definitely not for my mental health.

Simon Scott (70:15)

Yeah. And yeah, yeah, that, that, that resonates with me that Ashley. I've, I've experienced many things like that where it's like, oh, try your hardest. And then I, I give a, a thousand percent of myself. And they go, whoa, tone it down. Yeah, like that has happened a lot with a lot with me and Kiff. Oh, is it? Oh yeah. Cool.

Jordan James (70:37)

On Disney Plus I shall share it.

Simon Scott (70:39)

With, with the listeners.

Jordan James (70:40)

Nearly an 8 on IMDb. So very popular.

Simon Scott (70:43)

It is popular. But no, I think, I think today's conversation has covered a sort of lot of angles and perspectives of how slow burn meltdowns occur, what they look like, how they can feel and essentially the, the words that people can use to sort of make it worse. And I think so many neurodivergent people in life in general are in this state constantly and don't know any different. They don't know a feeling of not being in a slow burn meltdown or just being on the cusp of one. And I really hope that this conversation is given maybe some awareness or a little bit of reflection for anybody that has not realized that they're in a slow burn meltdown and that there is, there is sort of light at the end of the tunnel with it. I never thought I would not feel like that and now I don't most of the time. And so much of it is doing this show and speaking to people, but letting people in and leaning on my support network. Bringing Jordan the other day when I was having a meltdown was really hard. It was really hard to ask for help. But once I got it, I felt amazing and it really, really did help me. And the next day he texted me and was like, how are you feeling? I was like, I'm really grateful to have you as my friend because you really helped me.

Jordan James (72:07)

Yeah, I do follow ups. I'm that kind of.

Simon Scott (72:09)

Yeah, he's like a follow up consultation text, wants me to rebook. It was all good. But that, that for me has been such a key. Is community is talking to other people, listening to other people's perspectives within our community and normalizing these feelings that don't feel normal.

Ashley Bentley (72:29)

Yeah, yeah. Connection is so important. Yeah. And regulation, regulation focusing on regulating your nervous system as often as possible. That keeps you. That gives you more options to help yourself.

Jordan James (72:46)

If you're feeling that slow burn, listen to Mindful Mondays. That's what they're there for. Well, they're literally there to help regulate you for the week and get your kids to listen to them or listen to them with your kids. Make it a thing that you can all do together. Because I tell you what, from, from a parental perspective of two kids that are doing really, really well and haven't always done really well is the most important thing that I ever did as a parent is spend time with my kids doing the things that they loved, even if I didn't love them. I would make the effort to put away my hyper focus and my special interest to make sure that I was involved in their hyperfocus and their special interest. And I was doing that even before I understood what neurodivergence was. It was because my dad never did that. I always had to make allowances and compromise and try and do the things that he liked to do, otherwise he wouldn't even notice I was there. So I would get into all sorts of hobbies and things that I had no interest just to please him. And it still didn't fucking work. So you are the parent. It is your responsibility. You make your kids happy by coming down to their level and playing with them.

Ashley Bentley (74:05)

Excellent.

Jordan James (74:07)

Yeah, do it. Do things together. That's the best thing. And if they don't want to, then don't push it and don't make them feel bad if they don't want to. But I would say that the other thing is that honestly, honestly, I'm not just saying this because she's my daughter. Try and book Sophie for your kid because no one's gonna help anyone better than somebody who's actually lived through it.

Ashley Bentley (74:36)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I can totally agree with that. Yeah. Sophie's definitely a shining star in this world. So glad she's. And it seems the perfect fit as well. I think those of us who. Yeah. Who have had the difficult and have had to figure ourselves out in a not easy way, we are great people. We can be deeply empathetic and Sophie is definitely that. And yes. And listen to Mindful Mondays, especially episodes nine through 12 back in November where we go through all the basics of nervous system regulation. And this week's episode, although actually when this airs, it will be last week's episode, I believe. Is this airing next week?

Simon Scott (75:26)

Issues of Time and it comes out the week later. I know I'm constantly going, do you remember last week's episode? That was two weeks. Is it next week? Is it last week?

Ashley Bentley (75:35)

So episode 19 of Mindful Mondays also goes into nervous system regulation.

Simon Scott (75:43)

Yeah. And you know, sort of what you were discussing in that, like the anatomy of a breakthrough.

Ashley Bentley (75:49)

Yeah.

Simon Scott (75:50)

Understanding what our self, you know, a slow burn, meltdown, feels. That is a breakthrough.

Ashley Bentley (75:57)

Yeah.

Simon Scott (75:58)

Realizing, oh my God, this is. This is what I'm experiencing. Like, and I've discussed it so many times, and we'll sort of finish with this point, is that once you give that feeling a name, so much evidence appears around it. It's like the, you know, it's like it's open the door and walked in and you go, oh, hello, you. And it's so much easier to cope, recognize and advocate and accommodate for yourself when you give that feeling a name.

Ashley Bentley (76:29)

Absolutely.

Simon Scott (76:30)

So important. It's so, so important for anybody on a healing journey that's neurodivergent is you aren't your thoughts and feelings have them, but they do have names and they aren't going to disappear like when I had my meltdown last week. I still have my demons, but I understand they're going to come in and they're going to create a mess. They aren't here forever. And learning that has really been such a key healing with me and I learned that as well by working with Ashley. So please continue to listen to the Mindful Monday series. It's been a joy having it as a part of the show and Ashley is brilliant as well. Go to integrative coaching, breath work and therapy work with Ashley. Both Jordan and I can be testimony to the brilliant work that she does over there. So please reach out to her and we will link Sophie's work as well. If you have any young adults or young people that want brilliant advocacy from lived experience by great communicators and just wonderful people, please get in touch with Sophie James. Go and have a bit of mentoring with her and you know, this is what this podcast is here for. We want it to be a part of the community that anybody that's listening doesn't feel alone. That that is. That is the goal, guys. So thank you so much for tuning in. Jordan and I will be back tomorrow with a hot topic. We're talking about Autistic Barbie and Ashley on Autistic Barbie and Ashley will be with you guys as always on a Monday. So if you've listened to the whole of the show, be kind, be safe. Take care of yourself out there. We'll see you next time. Bye.

Jordan James (78:05)

Nightly By.

Simon Scott (78:10)

Thanks for tuning in to the neurodivergent Experience. We hope today's episode sparks something for you, whether it's a new idea, a bit of validation, or just a moment of connection. Remember, new episodes are every week, so be sure to join us for the next one for more conversations and insights into the neurodivergent Experience. If you've enjoyed this podcast, help us grow. You can do that by rating and reviewing this show. Your support makes a huge difference in helping us reach more people who could benefit from these conversations. You can connect with us on social media, find us on Instagram, Facebook, Tik Tok. Just search for the neurodivergent experience. Thank you again for listening and until next time, take care of yourself. You're not alone in this. This journey. High interest debt is one of the toughest opponents you'll face unless you power up with a Sofi personal loan. A Sofi personal loan could repackage your bad debt into one low fixed rate monthly payment. It's even got super speed since you.

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