Commercial Narrator (1:55)

Learn more@chase.com Sapphire Reserve cards issued by JP Morgan, Chase bank and a member FDIC subject to credit approval.

Jordan James (2:09)

Welcome to the Neurodivergent Experience Podcast. A podcast where we share the lived experiences of neurodivergent people to help create a better understanding for our community.

Simon Scott (2:21)

Join us every week as we bring you honest, raw and inspiring conversations with specialists, advocates and individuals who know exactly what it's like to live the neurodivergent experience.

Jordan James (2:33)

I'm Jordan James, a neurodivergent specialist, father of neurodivergent children Husband to a neurodivergent wife and author of the Autistic Experience. And I'm joined by my best friend.

Simon Scott (2:45)

I'm Simon Scott. I'm an autistic ADHD broadcaster, actor and advocate. Join us as we journey into unraveling the neurodivergent experience.

Jordan James (2:58)

Hello and welcome back, everybody. Scotty, how are you doing?

Simon Scott (3:03)

Hello. I'm here. Yeah, no, I'm good, I'm good. It's funny, I was literally just saying off air, I've, I've been away and come back to work and done work this week and I've done like a little bit of socializing over the two days of Mother's Day that's been in the UK this past weekend and I'm shattered completely.

Jordan James (3:22)

Cream crackered.

Simon Scott (3:23)

Cream crackered. Knackered. Yeah. No, no, I'm all good, man. I'm all good. It's the, it feels like spring's on its way here. And for our American listeners, I know that you guys have like crazy storms and God damn hurricane tornadoes, twisters, but we have just had the worst like gray winter and the sun has been out for like two days in a row now and I feel a little bit healed.

Jordan James (3:47)

Yeah, it's been like Superman when he steps out after he's been beaten and then he just, he just absorbs all the sun, it just regenerates him. That's.

Simon Scott (3:57)

That was me on my walk this morning.

Jordan James (3:59)

Yeah, yeah. I've actually been, I have been short tempered recently. Not losing my temper but just very snappy.

Simon Scott (4:10)

Irritable.

Jordan James (4:11)

Yeah, very, very irritable. And some interesting things about myself that I didn't understand previously have come to light and it's, and what was really interesting about it is when I was doing the research of like, okay, why, why is this happening? It actually I found out that it's a form of self regulation. It is a form of stimming where I can't keep something in my head and it just comes out of my head. So it's not like Tourette's like John Davison has where it's like his brain will go to the worst thing possible and it just comes out inadvertently. Mine is that I'm actually thinking something but it's not something that I should probably say because it's an inappropriate thing or it's the wrong moment or it's just not particularly friendly and then it just comes out. And I know that a lot of people thinking, yeah, everyone does that and it's true. But in, there's a reason that neurodivergent people are doing it, and it is a form of stimming. So before we get on to that, that I thought we'll. We'll start by just generally talking about stimming, because I think that it is something that is still very, very misunderstood. It's not quite as interesting as the Iran war is at the moment, but I'm ignoring that because I can't deal with it. So.

Simon Scott (5:44)

Yeah, don't. Don't blame you. I turned on Sky News the other day, and I just went, nope. Yeah, we're not doing that tonight.

Jordan James (5:52)

Nope. Nope.

Simon Scott (5:53)

Put the Simpsons on instead.

Jordan James (5:54)

Yeah, I'm just like, yeah, I'm gonna watch the new dinosaur show on Netflix.

Simon Scott (6:01)

Oh, it looks good, doesn't it? I've earmarked that.

Jordan James (6:04)

I was like, yeah, I'm two episodes in at a four. And, yeah, I'm. I'm feeling very neurodivergent. And I'm like, I've also.

Simon Scott (6:13)

Yeah, yeah, I. Yeah, I was a little bit like that the other night. I was like, shall I watch the new Louis through Manosphere, or should I watch the wrestling? Wrestling. It was.

Jordan James (6:23)

Oh, no, I watched the Manosphere. Oh, God.

Simon Scott (6:25)

I watched it. Yeah. Is it. Is it good, or.

Jordan James (6:28)

It's not as good as I was hoping. I. I don't think he goes. He does the very Louis through thing where he kind of just says a few things and then sits back and lets everyone else do the talking. But I was watching going, I've got so many questions that I'd be asking them. I'd be grilling them. I'd be picking apart every little thing they said, and I would make them realize how fucking stupid they are. But he doesn't do that. He kind of just plays nice.

Simon Scott (6:59)

Yeah.

Jordan James (6:59)

But they see through it like he's. It's not as good as when he used to do it, when people didn't realize what he was all about.

Simon Scott (7:07)

Yeah, that's the difficult thing about being an interviewer, is when people learn your style in your game, they counteract it. Because his whole method is, you know, if they're gonna make a mistake, let them sort of eases them in. And he's like, oh, I'm just a bumbling British guy. There's nothing to see here. And then he just lets everyone make fools of themselves. And then that's when he would pick at it. People are a lot more guarded with him now, I imagine.

Jordan James (7:29)

And it's nothing that I haven't seen from the Manosphere. It's like, I know exactly what it is. So it's almost, he's kind of going into it like, it's like, well, this would have been really helpful three years ago. So it was okay. I. But it, it wasn't sensational or mind blowing in any way whatsoever. It was just, well that, that was a thing that happened, which is disappointing.

Simon Scott (7:54)

How did we get.

Jordan James (7:55)

But adhd, my friend. So. Stimming.

Simon Scott (8:01)

Welcome back.

Jordan James (8:02)

Stimming. Well, short for self stimulation. Stimulatory behavior stimulation. Well, stimulation, it refers to like repetitive physical movements, sound, words and behaviors that stimulate the senses. Basically it is a common thing for like most people, but it's more pronounced and it acts more like a coping mechanism for, you know, us nd folk. So it's like used to regulate, you know, emotions, manage anxiety, sensory overload and also express joy. So it's, it's very, very much a huge part of the neurodivergent experience because a lot of us can't express things verbally or don't express things verbally well. So we end up stimming in a way to express ourselves. But people don't speak stim. So maybe we can try and help them speak stim.

Simon Scott (9:08)

Yeah, we'll try.

Jordan James (9:09)

Yeah. I mean there's different forms of stimming. There's visual, auditory, tactile vestibule, like movement and oral, which is like, it's in my research, it's like chewing pens, biting lips or chewing on clothes. I'm like, yep, that's, that's me. Movement, rocking, pacing, jumping.

Simon Scott (9:31)

Yeah, I was just about to say looking at all of these. Which, which one of these are yours? Like, because one of the things that I'm sort of processing and even though listeners will know if you've been with us right from the start. Hello. I am quite far along in my journey of figuring out who I am as a neurodivergent person. And I still am constantly surprised when I get de reading or, or new information. And sometimes I don't even realize 90 of what I do is a stim. So what are yours? And then I'll show you mine.

Jordan James (10:08)

Well, should we go through the, the different forms and then we can be like, okay, well that's, that's what I do. So visual. So staring objects, flickering fingers, lining up items, spinning objects. So I'm, I'm very much a fidget spinner.

Simon Scott (10:25)

Yeah.

Jordan James (10:25)

Person. I mentioned the other day that in my training that I was doing, I had a stim toy. I constantly need a stim toy. It's, it does help regulate me and it helps me concentrate. So when I'm actually stimming using my toy, it looks like I'm not paying attention, but it actually is the reason I'm paying attention. So what about you?

Simon Scott (10:52)

Oh, so I. I didn't realize how often I just stare at things. Like, I will be having a conversation with somebody, and as an example, my darling will often find certain moments to, like, it's. She's very sweet in that she'll be very quiet when she comes home, and then randomly, we'll just be sat silent. She'll start her conversation midway through. It's like she's already had half of it in her head, and I just have to catch up. And a lot of the time, I want to listen, but my brain sometimes won't let me. But I find if I stare at something in the distance, I can. So there have been times where we've been doing this podcast and I've been listening to you, and rather than looking at the screen or giving you direct eye contact, my brain, or my eye specifically, will just look at it, will just be drawn to something, and I'll just be able to just stare at it. And I feel like I can process listening and take information in if my brain isn't putting energy into looking at something. So it's like. It almost like, goes into, like a, like, screensaver mode, and I can just look at something for a little bit, and it's like, boom, the screen goes blank. I'm not. I'm logged in, but there's not a lot going on. But it means that I'm able to listen better. And it's like, what you were talking about with your. Your training the other week, where you were like, not everybody is, you know, is listens by looking. And I'm. I'm very much in that category, but I didn't. I didn't think that that was a stim. I used to line things up. I still have, like, everything has its place. Even though it's all chaos. Everything has its place. I am very prone to aligning things. Like, even now, hey, always imagine this was an OCD thing, but I'm looking at my mixing desk. It's not straight, so I'm just gonna just line it up.

Jordan James (12:44)

Literally. About to mention, that is before I, you know, started doing all the research into neurodivergence and became a specialist, I absolutely would tell people that me lining things up or neatening things, it's like, if there was, like, paperwork on the desk at work, I would have to make sure that it was straight and symmetrical, and it's like. It went. When I got one tattoo on one side of my body, I had to make sure that I got another tattoo on, and I still do it now. It makes me mad in my head that I have a tattoo on my right shoulder, but not one on my left shoulder. And I have a tattoo on my right leg, and I can't get the one on my left leg until September.

Simon Scott (13:22)

Oh, I have a sleeve on my left arm, and every time I look at my right arm, I'm like, why did you do this to yourself? I keep looking at my arm and I'm like, must. Must fail. But then I never. That I have that thing where I go, but do I want to spend the money on that? I do, but my brain won't let me.

Jordan James (13:38)

So I, too, thought that was ocd, and then now this is. It isn't ocd. It is a stim. It is a relaxation method of creating a control around your environment. Because we are so out of control so often, we try and create as much control as possible in order to expand our circle of control.

Simon Scott (14:03)

Oh, the more. You know. Eh.

Jordan James (14:05)

And I. I really like that idea because the. The circle of control is such a helpful tool for me to not get overwhelmed by things that I cannot be. I cannot stop. Yeah, no, I can talk about, but I can't. I can't stop them. I can't stop anything that Trump is doing. I can't stop that it is out of the circum. I can talk about it, but I can't stop it. So I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna get upset by it, because I can't do any bad, because then it just harms me and it harms the people around me and that. And that's more important that I look after myself by taking myself away from that situation. And that just goes for anything that I'm involved in. But what I can control is the cushions on my settee and that they're nice and neat. I can control, you know, what coffee cup I use and things like that. So.

Simon Scott (15:00)

So this is something to think about. Then when you have your. Your special interest cabinet with all your pop figures in. Does lining them up and putting them in an order and setting them up is. That's obviously a huge stim for you.

Jordan James (15:14)

That makes me so happy.

Simon Scott (15:16)

Yeah. It's like, literally just gives you a little tism boner. Does it?

Jordan James (15:18)

You're like, tism boner. Yes. Yes, it does.

Simon Scott (15:24)

Sorry, I don't know why you said that it's.

Jordan James (15:27)

It's.

Simon Scott (15:29)

Yeah, yeah.

Jordan James (15:29)

Okay, so now moving on. Now we've got auditory like humming, echoing phrases with a. Or making, singing, or listening to noises on repeat.

Simon Scott (15:43)

This is me.

Jordan James (15:44)

So this is me big time. Stim, Sing, sing. Stimming is something that Sophie does a lot, and I really hate it because she starts a song. We've talked about this with Caris as well. She'll sing, like a part of a song, but not the full song. And then my control kicks in. I'm like, sing the whole song. And it reminds me of that scene in south park where Cartman's doing that. I'm sailing away. And like, the kids keep starting it, but every time he hears it, he has to sing the whole song, otherwise he goes mad. Or the thing with Sheldon where he. He has to knock three times. People like, oh, that's ocd. It's not. It's. It's a stim. Him knocking three times in. This is in the bing bang theory, if anyone's wondering. He has to knock three times every time he, you know, he goes into a room. And that. That is his stim. That is his way of, like, building

Simon Scott (16:45)

up the confidence, feeling comfortable to do so. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I. Oh, God. Singing in our house is just constant. Like, we're. We constantly sing to the dog. Like, I have got so many songs. Like, she'll just be walking into room and I'll just go, e baby, sleepy baby on the beanbag on the sofa. She's a sleepy doggy. Like, I have so many songs for the dog. Like, so many.

Jordan James (17:08)

No more songs for the Hot Topic. Unbelievable. I know Hot Topics.

Simon Scott (17:12)

I ran out of Hot Topics. They're all into the dog. But yeah, I echo phrases constantly. Like Caris and I. A bit of, like, pop culture, echolalia machines. We're just constantly doing it. We will have whole conversations in echolalia. Sometimes it's like one of the ones that's crept into mine and when I'm really tired and I go a bit non verbal, I do get a bit.

Bleacher Report Announcer (17:37)

Oh.

Simon Scott (17:38)

Like I can have a whole conversation with just a grunt. And one of the ones that's crept in for mine is Caris is one of her special interests is Wicked the Musical. I have seen both of those films over 10 times each. And Ariana Grande has this voice that she does where she's like, yeah. And that has become one of mine where Carys will ask me a question. She'll go, do you want to do that? And I'll just go, yeah, but it feels so good. Feels like a toffee in my mouth every time I say. It's just like

Jordan James (18:10)

literally and. And. Yeah, exactly. That's. That's. I mean, because obviously a lot of people thinking echolalia, it's. It is actually how every human and you know, starts to. To verbalize. But it just sticks with us because of that reduction in synaptic pruning that we've still got those pathways from when we're an infant. So we. We continue using that as a form of communication. We learn other forms of communication, or some of us do and some of us don't. And I've learned other forms of communication, like, you know, flipping someone the bird when they pissed me off and even saying that I was like, piss me off because I got to do a Cartman voice. But yeah, it does. It does feel good and it makes me happy. Like, every time anybody in my house farts, I do the Terrence and Philip laughs. Every single. You fatty Terrence. But yeah, yeah. No, yeah. It's.

Simon Scott (19:11)

It's crazy, isn't it, how. It's how good it feels.

Jordan James (19:16)

It does.

Simon Scott (19:16)

It just feels so, so good. I mean, even now, my every fiber of my being is trying to stop me doing in the ghetto on a code and great care. Good morning, every baby child is burning like, I had to let that out. Otherwise I cannot throw to a break, which we're about to go to.

Jordan James (19:36)

Right? Yeah, let's. Let's have a break and then, then we'll get on next one.

Grow Therapy Announcer (19:42)

The hustle doesn't have to hurt if performance pressure is making it hard to breathe. Grow therapy helps you navigate stress, set boundaries, and actually feel like yourself again. Whether it's your first time in therapy or your 50th, grow makes it easier to find a therapist who fits you, not the other way around. You can search by what matters like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability and get started in as little as two days. There are no subscriptions, no long term commitments. You just pay per session. Grow helps you find therapy on your time. Whatever challenges you're facing, Grow Therapy is here to help. Grow accepts over 100 insurance plans, including Medicaid in some states. Sessions average about $21 with insurance, and some pay as little as $0, depending on their plan. Visit growththerapy.com startnow to get started. That's growththerapy.com startnow growtherapy.com startnow availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

Commercial Narrator (20:43)

Let's be completely honest. Are you happy with your job? The fact is A huge number of people can't say yes to that. Too many of us are stuck in a job we've outgrown or one we never really wanted in the first place. But we stick it out and we give reasons like what if the next move is worse? And I've put years into this place and maybe the most common one. Isn't everyone miserable at work? But there's a difference between reasons for staying and excuses for not leaving. It's time to get unstuck. It's time for Strawberry Me. They match you with a certified career coach who helps you get from where you are to where you want to be, either at your existing job or by helping you find a new one. Your coach helps clarify your goals, creates a plan, and keeps you accountable along the way. Go to Strawberry Me Career and get 50% off your first coaching session. That's Strawberry Me slash Career.

Simon Scott (21:39)

Have you ever felt stuck in patterns that don't serve you, struggled with stress or wanted to connect more deeply with yourself? Then I have to introduce you to a friend of the podcast Ashley Bentley of Integrated Coaching, Breathwork and Hypnotherapy. Ashley is a highly experienced clinical hypnotherapist and coach specializing in working with neurodivergent minds. Through a unique blend of integrative coaching, breathwork and Hypnotherapy, Ashley helps people rewire subconscious patterns, regulate their nervous systems, step into more empowered versions of themselves. Whether you're dealing with addiction, anxiety, burnout or struggles with self acceptance, Ashley offers practical and science backed tools tailored just for you. Her unique methods combine neuroscience, storytelling, subconscious transformation to create real, lasting change. Jordan and I can personally attest to the profound and transformative effects of her sessions, which have been life changing. She does all of these sessions online, meaning she can work with you no matter where you are in the world. If you're ready to break free from old patterns and start living with more clarity, confidence and connection, go to Bit Lynn Forward Slash Ashley NDE to book a free consultation or learn more. Welcome back to the neurodivergent Experience. We've been stimming in the break. I don't know about you. Auditory stims are. They're in my jam. But tactile stims. Jordan I was thinking about this before we recorded this episode as we were discussing over the past day or two what we were going to be talking about next. Oh, I didn't realize I do this as much as I do. I'm doing it now as we speak because my hand is on my chin. Touching my little beard. Yeah.

Jordan James (23:35)

Rubbing skin, scratching hair. Twirling or tapping. I mean, literally, like I'm. My foot is just.

Simon Scott (23:43)

Yeah. My fingers are tapping. My index fingers are tip tap tapping as we speak.

Jordan James (23:46)

Yeah. It was a guy at my work, definitely neurodivergent. Just kind of just didn't realize it, but he, he would sit there with. With a pen and he would tap the pen and then that would drive me insane because of my sensory issues. And I'll be like, we can activate

Simon Scott (24:06)

each other for good and bad.

Jordan James (24:07)

Oh, yes. And I will be. I will be getting on to that soon of why. Why we're doing this episode and what went down. But you save that for a bit later.

Simon Scott (24:17)

Yeah. Hang out. Hang with us.

Jordan James (24:19)

Hang with us. And I'll tell you about how terrible I am to my D times. So, yeah, rubbing sk. Beards apparent. Rubbing a beard. It was really interesting. I was doing like anti terrorist training. Like how to support. How to support. How to spot. Don't. Don't support them.

Simon Scott (24:36)

I'm not editing that out. That's a. That's a. That's a top tier.

Jordan James (24:39)

Yeah. How to support terrorism. Don't do that. That's bad. How to spot a potential threatening person in it. Like terrorist or. Or thug or whatever. And apparently, like, if you talk to them and you know they're. They're doing recon reconnaissance for you civilians out there, apparently, like when you talk to someone and a male obviously, or a female with a beard, who knows? And they're rubbing their beard and that is a sign that somebody is nervous. And I'm like, right. So like, this is what I mean. It's like everybody stims, but it's just we, we do it a lot more. It's like everything. Everyone's like, oh, but everyone does that. And it's like, yeah, everybody does do that. But neurodivergent people do it a lot more and it's a lot more intense for us.

Simon Scott (25:35)

It can be. I mean, I'm constantly scratching my head and like playing with my hair and even that. I'm doing it now because I'm talking about it. I had to like, what would you put, like, bone cracking?

Jordan James (25:49)

Yeah. I crack my neck constantly.

Simon Scott (25:53)

It's same.

Jordan James (25:54)

It is an absolute stim. It is definitely a stem because when

Simon Scott (25:58)

it like goes off in my neck, because I have it in my hands and my knuckles and even like my ankles sometimes when that pop goes off, it's like a stone hitting a pool. Just like goes. Because I look at My dad, right. And this is something I was thinking about with this tactile stimming. My dad does not have the hairline that I have, bless him. I have been blessed with the. The beautiful Italian side of my family's genetics. My dad's not so much. And he is a. He rubs his crown of his hair so, like the corners of his widow's peak, which is now at what we call the M of doom. Because when he frowns, his whole forehead looks like the VW badge with his hairline, bless him. But it's true, he gives it as good as he gets. But he rubs his hairline and has done. And I wonder if he stimmed that much that he's receded his own hairline, because that is one of his stims. And he will get his bottom lip and rub it on the stubble of his chin like that, and it does my mum's head in. But it's only when he's at home and he's chill and he's just sat watching TV or golf and he'll just like do this little thing with his lip or he'll rub his head trying to get, like, three wishes, maybe.

Jordan James (27:10)

Do you ever go up and rub his head for him?

Simon Scott (27:12)

Oh, I've done it loads of times. Absolutely loads of times. Yeah.

Jordan James (27:16)

Give me a little kiss.

Simon Scott (27:17)

Bless him. Yeah, I know, yeah. Do all that.

Jordan James (27:19)

But, yeah, like, I definitely do. I don't do hair twirling. I'm just assuming that the beard rubbing is the male version or the masculine version and the feminine version is the hair twirling.

Simon Scott (27:35)

Well, one of the things that I have, which is a little bit different because I still a punk rock kid at heart, I have a nose ring and I have an earring. Letting people behind the mask of the. The, you know, obliviousness of radio, I suppose. But I have a nose ring and I will twirl that sucker all the time.

Jordan James (27:54)

Yeah, but that comes under visual twirling. Yeah, Spinning object jumping ahead. But no, I mean, we've already did it. We did visual spinning objects. Like, I use a fidget spinner, but I do that to my ring. So I will use the. My little finger and my middle finger to twirl my. My wedding around on itself. But I also take the wedding ring off, which is just dumb because I've actually lost a wedding ring in the past to do it. And I'll. I'll spin it around between my thumb and my middle finger like a poke chip. Yeah, literally. And I'll. I will play with my Wedding ring a lot.

Simon Scott (28:37)

I couldn't. I didn't imagine that. That's. Wow. Well, the more, you know, listeners, I just learned something about myself.

Jordan James (28:44)

Yeah. Vestibular movement. So rocking, pacing, jumping, spinning your body.

Simon Scott (28:52)

Which ones of these are you?

Jordan James (28:54)

I'm. I definitely rock.

Simon Scott (28:57)

Me too.

Jordan James (28:57)

I'm. I do sit there and I. And I do shift and move and. And, you know, it's very, very difficult to keep me still. I think I definitely pace, especially when I'm on the phone. Oh, yeah. If I'm on the phone, I'm talking. I can't sit still. I have to walk around, up and down, up and down, up and down. It's like every time I call you, I think I just go for. I literally just put my headphones on and I go for a walk because I know it's going to be like we. We can talk for, like, hour to two hours just chatting away.

Simon Scott (29:32)

When I'm on the phone with you, dude. And. And Caris is at home. She goes around closing doors to stop me going into different. I kid you not. Like, I will go upstairs, I will go downstairs, I'll go in the garden. And to the point of, she's like, take your flip flops off. Because the squeak is doing my head in. Because I'll have headphones on as well, so she can't hear the conversation I'm having. She just hears me talking to myself, wandering around, like, going. So I get why that's annoying.

Jordan James (29:57)

Yeah, I. I used to spin, but in. In, like, they. They didn't put dancing in. In the notes and the research. But dancing is definitely a stem. Not all dancing. Not every dancer is autistic, but not every autistic is a dancer. But dancing is a form of stimming because it does feel good.

Simon Scott (30:25)

Feels great, doesn't it?

Jordan James (30:26)

Does. I'm. Okay. I'm what I like to call a professional dad dancer. Oh, dad dancing. Since I was about 10 years old, I didn't realize what I was doing, which was actually just copying my dad and his dancer.

Simon Scott (30:43)

You just do it. Just nothing else moves but the arms.

Jordan James (30:46)

Are you meant to move your legs? Is that.

Simon Scott (30:48)

Yeah, apparently. Apparently both are meant to go at the state. I can only do one or the other. I can do my legs.

Jordan James (30:52)

Yeah.

Simon Scott (30:52)

Or I can do my arms. I can't do both.

Jordan James (30:54)

I'm. I'm more like legs. But nowadays, because my back's gone now I'm more like. With the arms.

Simon Scott (31:01)

My instinct is to just hula hoop. Like, I'm all hips. I'm all snake hips. It's like, oh, that's where everything sort of come on. But if, if my arms can't move but my legs can, and my legs can't move them, I just like stand on the spot and I just like,

Jordan James (31:19)

I, I, I went to see a Beatles tribute band with Sylvia in January and most of the people in the audience were of a gray, a grayer age, mature, very, very mature. And I think I was one of the youngest people in there. And I'm 44. Most people just sitting and, and Beatles music is, you want to dance to it, man, it's such good music. And I couldn't help. I stood up, I stood up and I was dancing in like this like packed sea and I was stimming away and I was jumping and then they were singing the twi, you know, let's twist again. And I was twisting and I was doing, I regretted it in the morning.

Simon Scott (32:05)

Oh yeah, it's all the older folks going, he'll learn.

Jordan James (32:10)

Yeah, he'll understand why we don't move much. But I couldn't help it. But the thing is, is that you have that thing of like no one else is doing it. So do I want to be the only person that does it? And I think that is what I love about being such an unmasked, neurodivergent person is that I will be the first person to get up and just be like, I don't give a. Yeah, your ability. Anyone else is wild.

Simon Scott (32:35)

Oh, I don't know how you do it. It's a gift and a curse for those around you, I suppose.

Jordan James (32:39)

But I don't give a. But the thing is, is that I've never given a, I've always just been me and I think so when it came to suddenly unmasking and I mean there, there were obviously when I was bullied and stuff, there were a lot of stims that I would suppress, which we can talk about later. But I, as an adult, because obviously when I was really badly bullied, I then stood up to those bullies and I fought back and I, I got into a lot of fights and I became very violent. But in a weird way after I sort of stopped doing that, I, I had the confidence of like, I know I can really hurt people. So I'm actually not scared of people anymore. I, I, in my training as a doorman, in security training, in anti terrorist training, in disarming training, how to suppress people, how to like, you know, stop people from being able to grab you and stuff like that, I Can't remember the bloody training.

Simon Scott (33:40)

Self defense.

Jordan James (33:41)

Yeah, it is a form of self defense, but you don't ever hurt anyone. You can just.

Simon Scott (33:47)

You just throw them.

Jordan James (33:48)

You could just grab them and then you. You twist them around and.

Simon Scott (33:51)

Submission training.

Jordan James (33:52)

Yeah, something like that. Um, but it gave me the confidence to be able to deal with people. And nowadays I'm. I'm just. I'm not fearful of just being myself, but I'm. But I am aware of, you know, there are certain things that you can't do, especially in workplaces, because they are deemed unprofessional.

Simon Scott (34:16)

Yeah.

Jordan James (34:17)

So I have to figure these things out for myself as I go. But the fact is, is that you.

Simon Scott (34:25)

You.

Jordan James (34:26)

If I want to do something, there ain't a person alive that's gonna stop me. I'm just gonna be me, baby. One more before we go to the break. Is oral chewing pens, biting lips or chewing on clothing, like I said earlier? So I used to chew my clothes a lot. Like they were soaking wet.

Simon Scott (34:53)

Like your collar? Just like.

Jordan James (34:54)

Yeah. Oh, like bottom of a T shirt. I'd grab it. Okay, have a little munch on it.

Simon Scott (35:01)

I think I used to do this. I don't. I haven't done it for a long time, though.

Jordan James (35:04)

But I suppose buying nails as well is. It's not just buying lips, but buying nails is a big one. I know that a lot of neurodivergent people bite their nails, but it's actually a problem.

Simon Scott (35:17)

Yeah. I know quite a few people that are really heavy on the nail biting and have to be careful.

Jordan James (35:23)

Well, Sophie's main stem when she was younger was sucking her thumb and it became a serious issue and it actually affected the way her teeth grew to the fact that she's now had to have corrective linings put on her teeth to get them to be straight. She didn't have to do it. There was nothing wrong.

Simon Scott (35:47)

Aesthetic thing.

Jordan James (35:47)

Yeah. But she always hated the fact that if she closed her mouth, she'd literally have a gap in where her thumb was. Yeah, yeah. So it's. Yeah. Thumb sucking is terrible, by the way. Just. It's not as in terrible as in you shouldn't do it. Is in terrible for your growth.

Simon Scott (36:08)

I know people as well. It's. It's been more AFAB people or. But it's long hair. I've seen. No. Loads of people that chew their hair. Loads of people that chew their hair, like, they'll pull it from them around their head, like over their lip into their mouth. They'll suck on their hair. They'll like, pull it. Caris is a sideburn Twizzler. She'll really like, get on it and like, boink, boink, boink. She does that. I will be honest though. I do not know anybody who is a lip biter like I am. I am constantly screwing up my face to the point of my teeth at the bottom are crooked because I bite my lips so much. Like all the, all the inside of my mouth is covered in scar tissue because I'm constantly biting the inside, cutting it open. I've constantly got split lips because I'm always scrunching my face up and biting my lip. Like, even now when I'm talking to you, I'm finding it really hard not to keep my lip out. You know, to keep my lip out of my mouth.

Jordan James (37:13)

Yeah, I don't bite my lip. What I do is I. I push my tongue against my lip and my tooth. So I like flick my lip off my teeth using my tongue. No one is going to understand what I'm saying, but essentially I'm biting my lip, but. But using my tongue and my tooth rather than my upper teeth and my lower teeth. Anyway, that was fun to try and explain that my brain exploded. I bite myself about myself. I bite my arms. And that, that is definitely like a form of self harm, but it is a stim. It's a harmful stim. And I, And I do it to, to suppress my anger, but also to punish myself because I did something wrong. So because I was physically abused when I was a kid, when I did things wrong, I then a physically harm myself as like a reflex. It's. It's something that doesn't matter how much therapy I have, dude, I cannot get rid of it.

Simon Scott (38:30)

It's your DNA.

Jordan James (38:31)

It is just in me. I cannot get rid of it. And I've tried buying like, things like toys to bite. Like literally I bought a chew toy that, you know, for. For babies, you know, a teething ring. And when I bite on that, I can't do that because I have a really terrible gag reflex. So anything that I put in my mouth like that and I bite on it. Even thinking about buying makes me go, oh, yeah.

Simon Scott (38:57)

That's why I have so much chewing gum, dude.

Jordan James (38:59)

Yeah, chewing gum. Actually, I don't, I don't get the gag refix. But if I bite, if I bite any like rings or I'll do. Sometimes when I accidentally bite a fork, I. I want to die. I want to die. Biting metal might be the absol. Worst thing in the world ever.

Simon Scott (39:18)

I'M going to throw to a break here, but I'm going to end this section with listeners all all gipping and going, Ooh, Cantona, have you ever bitten into the wooden bit of an ice lolly?

Jordan James (39:28)

I don't mind that.

Simon Scott (39:30)

Oh well, I do. So we're going to go to a break so I can go be a bit sick.

Jordan James (39:34)

Okay then. Bye.

Grow Therapy Announcer (39:39)

The hustle doesn't have to hurt if performance pressure is making it hard to breathe. Grow Therapy helps you navigate stress, set boundaries, and actually feel like yourself again. Whether it's your first time in therapy or your 50th. Grow makes it easier to find a therapist who fits you, not the other way around. You can search by what matters like insurance, specialty, identity or availability and get started in as little as two days. There are no subscriptions, no long term commitments. You just pay per session. Grow helps you find therapy on your time. Whatever challenges you're facing, Grow Therapy is here to help. Grow accepts over 100 insurance plans, including Medicaid in some states. Sessions average about $21 with insurance and some pay as little as $0 depending on their plan. Visit growththerapy.com startnow to get started. That's growththerapy.com startnow growththerapy.com startnow availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan

Bleacher Report Announcer (40:40)

the Bleacher Report app is your destination for sports right now. The NBA is heating up, March Madness is here, and MLB is almost back. Every day there's a new headline, a new highlight, a new moment you've got to see for yourself. That's why I stay locked in with the Bleacher Report app. For me, it's about staying connected to my sports. I can follow the teams I care about, get real team time scores, breaking news and highlights all in one place. Download the Bleacher Report app today so you never miss a moment.

Simon Scott (41:19)

Welcome back to the neurodivergent Experience. I had to go and stand up and have a shake after discussing biting into. Anyway, you were leading on just before we made half the audience skip there, my friend. And you were discussing harmful stims and you were discussing biting yourself. But there's more to it than that.

Jordan James (41:39)

Yeah, I think definitely trauma brings on harmful stims. It's not always there's not enough research into harmful stims. I think it's more just people going, oh, that's a harmful stim, so it must be autism. That's kind of the vibe I get when I look into it, but I'm a little bit more of a deep diver, especially about myself, and I'm like, okay, so why am I doing this thing? You know? I need to know, because I did. I've tried to stop the biting, I really have, and I do it a lot less. And what I actually did, and this is really helpful because the teething ring was big. Aggie. I actually have a cuddly, a very, very small cuddly toy bumblebee that I got from a National Trust property. And I bite that.

Simon Scott (42:26)

Oh, okay.

Jordan James (42:27)

And it's not a bad idea. Yeah. So I actually bite that. And that doesn't. So if I remember, and I've got it sitting next to me, especially playing video games. Especially playing video games. If I remember, I would just bite the head of my poor little bumblebee who has now seen the inside of my mouth way too many times. But the thing is, I can do things about it, and if I can do things about that, I can do things about other harmful stims that I do. So this is. That's what I've been trying to work on. So this harmful stim happened, but I'm going to explain it before I explain how it happened. So in my research, it says when autistic individuals verbalize internal thoughts, phrases, or monologue uncontrollably, often saying things they don't consciously mean to say. It is commonly referred to as a vocal self talk, a form of stimming or sometimes pallalalia, repetition of one's own work, one's own words or thoughts. This behavior functions as a way to regulate sensory overload, process information, manage anxiety. Now, this is how this happened. So like I said, I've been very techy lately, very on edge, kind of feeling like it's a mini meltdown, but it hasn't popped into a big one.

Simon Scott (43:48)

It's like a slow burn.

Jordan James (43:49)

Yeah. Because I don't really have those anymore. I have worked on them with Ashley. Everybody's just amazing. I have worked on them with her and they don't really happen that often, but I, I still getting annoyed and that had gone away and now it's back and I'm like, what's going on? And I've been working ever since I come back from New Zealand. I have been working so much. I've been doing so many shifts. I have been communicating with so many people, trying to get guests and things like that for the podcast, and, and it's very, very difficult. And I've been dealing with a lot. And I haven't had any sessions with Ashley that is booked for the end of the Month. So I'm just trying to get through it. So Sylvia and I went for a really nice walk on Mother's Day. Morning. Sorry, not Mother's Day on Saturday. And we went for a lovely walk. It was really, really nice to get out of the house. And I was feeling really, really good. Now, on that walk, we were talking about Mother's Day and the fact that I've never, ever bought her flowers. I bought her flowers one time in our relationship and she looked at them and went, what is the point? You've just killed flowers. And I'm like, how the hell did I not know you're autistic earlier?

Simon Scott (45:09)

Yeah, I was about to say that. Yeah, fair enough.

Jordan James (45:12)

Yeah. So ever since then, I've just bought her chocolates. She loves chocolates. Oh, I will buy her extravagant gifts. Like this year, I decided to buy her a brand new Delonghi coffee machine, because the old one's a bit nice. Yeah, it's really, really good. Yeah, really, really nice coffee machine. So that's her Mother's Day slash early birthday present. Now, on this walk, we talked about Sylvia's dislike for flowers. And the kids always buy her flowers. And she was going on about last year, they spent loads of money on a massive bouquet. And she is not confrontational like me, because I'd have turned around and gone, I love them, but maybe next time don't get them. She won't ever do that. But it's in my head. It's in my head, Sylvia doesn't like flowers. That's just sitting there in my head. We come home, half an hour's gone by. Sophie comes back from shops, she's carrying flowers. Now she comes through our hallway, which you cannot see from the kitchen. Sylvia's in the kitchen, but where I'm standing in the living room, I can see Sophie holding the flowers, and I can see Sylvia in the kitchen. So I've got eyes on both, but they can't see each other. And I look at Sophie and Sylvia's not hearing this, and I went, mummy doesn't like flowers.

Simon Scott (46:33)

Oh, no.

Jordan James (46:34)

Yes, I know. Oh, I know, I know, I know

Simon Scott (46:40)

it's not your fault, but it's also like, it's not their fault.

Jordan James (46:43)

It's definitely not Sophie's fault. It isn't my fault. And I. I don't know how it came out, but it didn't. It didn't matter because it wasn't about how I said it, it was what I said.

Simon Scott (47:00)

Yeah.

Jordan James (47:01)

And then she's like, what do you mean? I always Buy her flowers. And I. Yeah, yeah. No, she. She doesn't like flowers. And I'm like, why is this happening?

Simon Scott (47:10)

Just keep. Yeah, just keep. Keep talking, brain. Just.

Jordan James (47:13)

Just. I'm not. I don't want to say this. I don't want to break her little heart. I know that she's very, very sensitive to this sort of thing. She's gone out of her way to.

Simon Scott (47:20)

But I know listeners.

Jordan James (47:22)

I know this. And. And I'm. My brain is like, I'm just gonna keep fucking talking. And then I just go, babe, you don't like flowers, do you?

Simon Scott (47:31)

Oh, no, don't bring Sylvia into it.

Jordan James (47:34)

And then Sophie peers around the corner, and she's like, mama, do you not like flowers? And Sylvia, who doesn't know Sophie's bought her flowers because she hasn't seen them, probably thinking, oh, I better tell her now so she doesn't buy me a massive bouquet again. She's like, no, I don't really like flowers. I think they look pretty, but I don't see the point in them. I. You know, I think they're a waste of money. She's being very, very autistic. I'm. That about cards. I don't see the point in birthday cards.

Simon Scott (48:03)

Yeah, I don't do cards.

Jordan James (48:04)

I also don't see the point in wrapping things when you've got those little, like, happy birthday bags or gift bags. I think they're.

Simon Scott (48:11)

Baby won't let me wrap presents. I've tried.

Jordan James (48:14)

Oh, yeah. I'm really good at it.

Simon Scott (48:16)

Enjoy the duct tape.

Jordan James (48:17)

Yeah, I'll just put it in a bag and throw it. It's like Amazon wrapped it for me in this brown bag. Have this.

Simon Scott (48:23)

There's even a return sheet in case you don't like it.

Jordan James (48:26)

And the cost.

Simon Scott (48:27)

Yes, there you go.

Jordan James (48:28)

But. And Sylvie's just said that. And then Sophie has just put the flowers on the stairs and just walked up the stairs and gone, oh, no. And in that moment, instead of me saying, oh, that was dumb.

Simon Scott (48:43)

What?

Jordan James (48:43)

I'm really sorry. Or just, I doubled down and I started projecting, and. And. And my hatred of myself in that moment just spilled out onto her. And I said, why are you acting like this? You're overreacting. You don't need to do that. You just. Why are you storming off? And. You know, we're just telling you the truth. And I was trying to justify all sorts of fucking nonsense, and I was wrong. 100%. I was wrong. She came down later, we had a whole discussion that took over an hour. And again, I I was so tired, dude, because I've been working nights, and when I come, obviously, I work all night long. And then I come home and I'm meant to sleep, but I only get, like, three hours sleep.

Simon Scott (49:31)

Ouch.

Jordan James (49:32)

And then I have to work the next night. And that doesn't always happen, but it is happening more and more lately because we've got such a full house. We got Chris living with us as well, the lights changing. So basically I've got four kids, two dogs, a cat, and me and Sylvia all living in. It's not a big house, it's not small.

Simon Scott (49:56)

Autism for that square footage.

Jordan James (49:58)

It's not. It's not a massive house. And everyone in here is autistic, even the dogs. We know about the bloody cat. Yeah, the cats, because all cats are autistic. So it's just. It's a house of. Of neurodivergence. And everyone's neurodivergence is annoying everyone else's neurodivergence. Chris's dyspraxia keeps breaking plates. But I'm not blaming Chris. I'm blaming his dyspraxia. That's. That's what I'm blaming. Blaming Chris. But it's just, like, everything. So that's. That's my reason. I don't use it as an excuse because it was really shitty and I apologize for it. And when I went to work, I sent her a message apologizing, but I was like, why did that happen? I know it happens. I don't have an inner monologue some days, and I just blurt out, not in a Tourette's way, but in a. Oh, I want to say this to you, but being a nice human, I don't want to say that thing to you, so I'm not gonna say it. And then I say it and I'm like, oh. Oh, my God.

Simon Scott (51:06)

It's like you're just possessed. Just. Just comes out.

Jordan James (51:08)

It's the truth. Sylvia doesn't like flowers. She shouldn't have bought her flowers. Those flowers won't be well received. But I don't need to say that it is a verbal stim because of my tiredness, because of my anxiety, because of sensory overload and processing difficulties. It just comes out, Sophie, sweet as anything, because she knows that. So she said, look, I know that you didn't mean what you said. I know that you weren't supposed to say, and I know that it is your neurodivergence is the reason you said it, but it still hurt. Which is why instead of having a go at you instead of getting upset and screaming at you. I went upstairs to have a little cry because I was sad.

Simon Scott (51:55)

It's very mature of her.

Jordan James (51:57)

Yeah. And I was super immature because I saw her disappearing from the situation. I was annoyed because I'd made her do that. And then rather than blaming me for making her do that, I blamed her for doing that. And it. Dude, three hours sleep's not enough. It's just not.

Simon Scott (52:16)

It's not. Dude.

Jordan James (52:17)

It's not.

Simon Scott (52:17)

Tolerance is going to be paper thin.

Jordan James (52:19)

And, you know, I was. I was. I only slept three hours a day because Sylvie was off and I wanted to spend the day with her and I wanted to enjoy the day. And I do feel like sleep is a waste of time. I know we've been over this and we will do another episode on. On self regulation, but I was not regulated at all. But that is my story. That's why I wanted to do this. And people out there, you know, this will happen. And when that does happen, especially when a kid, especially a teenager, when the amygdala isn't connected to the frontal lobe, as you know, do your research. Especially when synaptic pruning is happening and the brain is not functioning properly, especially when they're tired and overwhelmed and they've got school and they've got exams. Teenagers will say shit to you and they don't mean it. They will tell you they hate you. They will tell you that they wish that they were never born. They will tell you that they never loved you.

Simon Scott (53:14)

You're not my dad.

Jordan James (53:16)

Yeah. And some of it might be justified. I wish I told my parents a lot more of that. But if you're out there and you're a good, loving parent like me, and your kid has said nasty things to you, and you've said nasty things to your kid because you also probably own your Divergent. If your kid is. There is a reason behind it. And understanding there's a reason behind it actually helps me stop doing it, because it doesn't mean that I'm never going to do it again. And Sophie knows that. But when I do it after, when she went upstairs, that's when I go, oh, that was a verbal stim. That hurt her feelings. I'm not gonna get annoyed that she now needs to go and process those feelings. So I'm not promising myself that. Me saying, Sylvia doesn't like flowers. That might happen again. But my reaction to her reaction will now be different, because I know.

Simon Scott (54:19)

And that's a great lesson for. For all listeners. I know I was scrunching my face up listening to that story because I was just like, oh, it's not good. But what you've given a great example of there is understanding yourself helps you understand those in your family and your closer circle that are neurodivergent better. And it helps separate the hurt that it's caused from what you've done because you couldn't help that. That happened because of the many compounding circumstances of your low tolerance and that intersected with Sophie's. And you can't help what happens. But having the, the knowledge and the words and the patience of understanding yourself helps. When afterwards Sophie came downstairs and you had a conversation, you could actually have a conversation. And it's not tit for tat and it's personal. It's trying to find an understanding and learning about your significant others. And it does help heal. It helps improve things and, and move things forward. So I'm interested to know, listeners, how do you stim? Is any of this suddenly been a big light bulb moment for you? Going, wow, I did not know that was a stim. I would love to hear your opinions. You can get in the comments on Spotify or on Jordan's posts on the Jordan James, the autistic photographer on Facebook. And we will be back with you for our Hot Topic tomorrow. Wonder what we'll be talking about. Yeah, Trump's a dick again. We're running it back, but if any of the things that we've discussed or the news story we're about to discuss in our feed tomorrow is giving you any stress, hit up Ashley. She is an incredible person to work with and listen to her show Mindful Mondays right here on the neurodivergent Experience. Start your week with purpose. I might be doing the same because at the moment I'm very tired, I'm very unregulated, and I'm stimming. They're out of control, man. They're out of control. Be kind, be safe out there. Be tolerable if you can. Bye, everyone.

Jordan James (56:16)

Nightly. Bye.

Simon Scott (56:22)

Thanks for tuning in to the neurodivergent Experience. We hope today's episode sparked something for you. Whether it's a new idea, a bit of validation, or just a moment of connection. Remember, new episodes are every week, so be sure to join us for the next one for more conversations and insights into the neurodivergent Experience. If you've enjoyed this podcast, help us grow. You can do that by rating and reviewing this show. Your support makes a huge difference in helping us reach more people who could benefit from these these conversations. You can connect with us on social media, find us on Instagram, Facebook, Tick tock. Just search for the neurodivergent experience. Thank you again for listening and until next time, take care of yourself. You're not alone in this journey.

Commercial Narrator (57:19)

You're locked into a lot of things you can't change. Weather, traffic. Hey, stay in your lane. Your wireless carrier's latest price hike. But you can unlock a better way. Unlock the savings at Boost Mobile and save up to $600 a year. Switch to the $25 a month unlimited wireless plan. No contracts, no price hikes and you keep your phone stop being locked into their games. Unlock the savings@boostmobile.com unlock based on average annual single line of payment of AT&T Verizon and T Mobile customers compared to 12 months on the Boost Mobile Unlimited wireless plan as of January 2026. For full offer details, visitors visit boostmobile.com

Bleacher Report Announcer (57:50)

the Bleacher Report app is your destination for sports right now. The NBA is heating up, March Madness is here, and MLB is almost back. Every day there's a new headline, a new highlight, a new moment you've got to see for yourself. That's why I stay locked in with the Bleacher Report app. For me, it's about staying connected to my sports. I can follow the teams I care about. Get real time scores, breaking news and highlights. Lights all in one place. Download the Bleacher Report app today so you never miss a moment. This is the exclusive table with the view. This is your name on the list.

Jordan James (58:23)

This is three times points on dining with Chase Sapphire reserve and a $300 dining credit chase Sapphire Reserve now even more rewarding.

Commercial Narrator (58:30)

Learn more@chase.com Sapphire Reserve cards issued by JPMorgan Chase bank and a member FDIC subject to credit approval.