B (2:08)

And, well, I, I. All the crying emojis you sent me, please beg you. I want to come back.

A (2:15)

Over and over. Do they finally break through? I was hop. Yeah, there's the waterfall crying emoji.

B (2:22)

It was. It was the. The. The squirty banana emoji. That.

A (2:29)

That's what got you?

B (2:30)

Yeah, that's. I was like, yeah, I do.

C (2:33)

Both of your wives listen to this show.

B (2:36)

Oh, I just assumed it was like a crying Banana. I don't know what was going on.

A (2:40)

Innocent.

C (2:41)

Innocent brain.

B (2:41)

Yeah, absolutely.

C (2:43)

The reason as to why we have such a good rapport, if you're listening, is because Brett and I have a. Somewhat of a working relationship. You have made an incredible film. The Divergent Gift Unboxing Autism. And you asked me to actually do some sound design on it, which I was absolutely over the moon to do, and I loved it. But also my co host, Jordan James is a bit of a star of the show, isn't he? Because he's all over it. He's all over it.

A (3:11)

Yeah. He's definitely. You know what? Jordan has the. The it factor that captures, you know, the. The attention that. That's actually really needed out there. Because you have the language.

C (3:25)

No.

A (3:25)

But seriousness. The way that you frame things, the way that you run through your experiences from a very personal place, but relatable place at the same time has just made all the difference. And my framing and the lighting and, you know.

B (3:43)

Oh, your. Your videogr. Dude, it's so good. I love all the shots in the documentary of me outside when we met at Leith Hill.

A (3:53)

Yeah.

B (3:54)

And oh, God, it was such a perfect morning.

A (3:58)

No. That I'm so glad that you. Yeah. Said, hey, do you want to go to this place? I shoot and we. I fit it in. Literally right before my flight. It was what piled all my stuff in that little tidy car with stick shift on the other side that I'm not used to. That was. That was quite an adventure. But what was amazing about that is I was hyper focusing on you. Hyper focusing. And I think that's what comes through is we have this like double layer autistic lens experience of you just completely doing your thing and then talking in between. Lots of talking. But capturing those moments of when you were just able to zone in on something that just captured interest. And then me just zoning in on framing you, capturing that. I. I think that's. That's the power of films through this. Through this kind of lens. You're throughout the film and a number of other subjects. I wish they all could have their own feature lengths.

B (4:52)

I do. It's called this podcast.

A (4:55)

That's right. So I'm glad we could feature more of it here.

B (4:59)

This is the spin off. This is the spin off to the. To the documentary.

C (5:05)

Well, I must say, I. In a. In a typical. The ADHD fashion, I watched the film literally only a few hours ago. Brett.

A (5:14)

Excellent. Yes.

C (5:15)

It's incredibly moving. Not only is it a beautiful film to watch and I love animation. It's one of my favorite, like mediums of storytelling. And I think it adds so much to this film. It's beautiful, it's beautifully shot, and I think it portrays our people and our culture so authentically. And it's so wonderful to see a production which literally from the very top of direction to editing, to score, to sound design, to subjects, to everything is our people. I think it's such an important film.

A (5:47)

Yes. So backing up. And I think you hit the key points there, Simon. And again, we'll talk about your collaboration. It was just brilliant and amazing. But this is the idea was a film that's by the community, for the community, and then also reaching beyond to bring in others or those that are curious about themselves, that don't know they're part of the community, or those with autistic children that are don't know where to start. Like I did with this medical piece of paper, that's just the medical model. So to. I'm not great at nutshells, but if I were to boil it down, my, my son received his diagnosis at the age of nine. And that started this whole chain reaction, especially going through that process of me wondering about myself. And I was just up for a year long sabbatical where I could apply for that. Uh, and I thought like, okay, if I don't really know much about any of this other than what this piece of paper says, and I don't even know what that's trying to tell me because I know who he is and I know what other people are assuming. What if I bring people along this journey of learning more? And so I started from really knowing nothing, using outdated, outmoded language because all it had was on the piece of paper. Go to Autism speaks, ASD level one.

B (7:02)

Don't do that.

A (7:02)

Your son is high function. Right? It just had. That's, that's where. That's where everything started. And that's literally what the medical model in the US started. So I'm like, there's more. And I really wanted to explore this from a lived experience point of view. And so I started getting in contact with all of these subjects after interviewing my son, who's also part of it, who wanted to advocate for himself with his teachers that were misunderstanding him and putting them in a box in various ways. And one teacher said, yeah, we'll just shave off those, those hard edges of yours and just things like that. And so this was a way that I could use my medium of communication, my megaphone, to help amplify his voice and also get to Others. And so I'm the start of this vehicle with my family's journey, but really it's to get to all of these other amazing people. Jordan James, Sue Nelson of the BBC wrote an amazing article about getting her diagnosis at the age of 60. And I read that. I reached out to her, showed her the interview with my son. She's like, yeah, I would love to be part of this. And then just to so many others, Dr. Marinke Ajiwa Nayu, she spoke in front of the United nations and was talking about disability and fluctuations of that. And I saw her interview. I'm like, oh, my gosh, this is. This would be amazing to have. So really wanted to make sure that there's more women representation, more age, reputation, more race representation. Really tried to capture diversity even within the small. This film, whatever, whatever I could put together in the time that I had. And I had one year to film it, and then we had another year to wrap up animations and all these other things. And so it spiraled from there. So I reached out to various creatives and Simon, I'm so glad you got to do the sound design for that. There's a studio in LA called Exceptional Minds where they all. Autistic animation studio. So worked with them, worked with a lot of individual contractors for animating little bits, and then it all sort of comes together and still has continuity with the way that everything was filmed. So that's not a nutshell at all. That's. That's what the. That's my autistic nutshell.

B (9:15)

Do you know what, When. When you talk about the studio that helped with like the sound design and the art and stuff, and you call it Exceptional Minds, and it's like there's such a contrast from. From the narrative that we're getting from the US at the moment, which is disease impaired, you know, destroyed. And obviously that. That is what Simon and I were. Were told from the beginning. And this is what so many episodes lately because. Because this is what this podcast is. This is what you're doing. This is what I've always done, is we're standing up for ourselves. And by doing so, it also stands up for people that relate to us. And it's so important. It's so important because there are so many people, including me, including you, Brett, including you, Simon, who were just so freaking sad. We were just so sad because we're so different, because we're treated badly, because we're so different. And the whole point of my page, the book, your documentary, this podcast, the whole point is that it is great to be different. It's wonderful to be different, but it also comes with so many challenges. And that's what I love about the documentary, is that it really does show such a wide range of less impaired, because we. We've been talking about severely impaired and. And the language that's being used of severe autism and how Autism.

C (11:07)

Daughter.

B (11:07)

Profound. Yeah. How it's just a negative all the time. And what I love about your documentary and, and let's be clear, the. The numbers are that it's like 73, 74%, according to CDC, of autistic diagnosed people. That's just the ones that are diagnosed, by the way, are not impaired, severely impaired. They're like us. So we are the majority, but we are all being labeled as if we're incapable of doing things. And that's what I love about the documentary because it really does show our side of things. And it's like we have one thing in common. From what I was watching when I was watching the documentary, is the fact that we're all so different. But, my God, we all get treated the same. And it's just. I. I love being your friend, Brett, because it's. It's. It was. It was wonderful when you. When you came over and you were like, oh, we're going to interview you, and I was like, okay, there's this guy, he's going to interview me. And then you came to my house and I was like, oh, friend. Yeah, well, because we've got the same mission, man. We got the same idea. We're same passion. I love you, dude.

A (12:28)

I love you, Troy. What. What was really wonderful for my experience in. In filming is, you know, coming out story, but coming home story and meeting you and. And all these other subjects, even with how different they are. Vastly different ages, backgrounds. Right. Cultural backgrounds. And yet it's like I was related. It's like it was literally like cousins, families, uncles, because there's. There are things that they're talking about. Like, yeah, you know, Miranic is rocking out, and I'm like, rocking out. Like, you know, there's these. There's these things that was just. I could just feel to my bones when you were talking and, and, you know, being someone that interviews, it's hard to, you know, not interrupt. Oh, yeah. You know, and just share my side of it, but just, you know, nod emphatically and let your moment go.

B (13:23)

It's what. Is what Simon has to do. Whenever I talk, I'm doing it now. He doesn't get to tell. He Just nods.

A (13:29)

You know, earlier, Jordan, you. You mentioned that you wish there was more of. Of me in it. And from my perspective, I saw me in the entire thing because of all of these people. Because of you. I saw me and you. I saw me in all what everyone is sharing. I'm like, oh, I'll just share these people. I don't. And I see from the outside perspective how that. That, you know, could be perceived differently for sure. But that's. That's what was so powerful is when I got to meet you, Jordan. And once we realized that there's. There's all these similarities with. With things and feelings and intensities, and it was. Yeah, it was just like coming home. I'm realizing about my best friend that passed away when I was younger. Right. And his neurodivergence, and it was. It was just a really wonderful. I'm glad we were able to make that work. And then Simon, meeting you has been awesome. When we've been able to meet at check in and then what you brought to the people just love the section that you did the sound design for. It's just. It's just brilliant. So.

C (14:32)

Oh, that means. That genuinely means a lot, Brett. Thank you. I have to say, I loved working on this with you. I thought the sort of camaraderie and just like the working environment that you and Ivan had when we were working on this sort of little. Even it's a tiny little section of the film.

A (14:48)

Right, right.

C (14:49)

But the collaboration and just the sort of like, the energy and the trust that you were putting towards me, I was just like, I loved working on it. It's one of the things that in the last few years, I'm very proud of many things that I've made or worked on in the last few years, but this film is. Is definitely up there. And I think some of the subjects that you spoke to, from, like, Maisie so Tantio to Eric Garcia, you know, you have some incredibly successful individuals scattered throughout this film that are in, like, the very sort of tops of their field. And I really hope that from. I mean, from the screenings that I've been to, the response has been absolutely incredible. But the sort of people that you're putting out there and the stories and what you're putting in the film with your own family as well. I mean, how is it. How has it been perceived? What. What are people saying? Because I think it's phenomenal.

A (15:41)

Yeah. Thank you. I. Yeah, it's the. The reception. So let me back up a little bit. So right now we're doing private screenings only, so our sample audience isn't really large, but in like my institution where I work at a, at a community college where I teach full time, places like that, I've shown it. And also small little venues and then private links for those that have been part of the film have supported it either financially. Right. That's, that's part of that community. But the reaction to, to those that like at my institution, one, one refrain that we've heard from Jordan and from others is that for many, or for at least some, that this film, there's a validation for, for many that this film will save lives. Right. That sounds, you know, over, over grandiose with that I would agree.

B (16:33)

With that, I would agree. This, this film will absolutely save lives.

A (16:37)

So that's a refrain that we hear and that is just, that's, that's so motivating and validating for all of the effort, all of the nights, you know, giving up weekends, everything. To just put all of, all of me into this. That's, that's wonderful. I've had a number of people at my community college come up to me and share. They're like, I just got my diagnosis and just share these amazingly relatable and beautiful and tragic in that how misplaced they were within society or how society pushed them other and how this really made them feel. Someone said it's like a warm blanket to their younger selves. And I just thought that was just beautiful. And so, yeah, there's validation. And then those that have family members have stated like, I wish I had this 20 years ago for our first son with his diagnosis. This is, you know, him and his wife came to the screening and they were both looking at each other like throughout the whole film. They're like, you know, so there's this like moment of finally people sharing things. Yeah, it's been, it's been very rewarding and validating for me hearing that this has meant so much to others as well and that especially in the time that we're, we're at where it's just bananas out there that, that we can do some, some pushback and hear from lived experiences, hear from those that, you know, are all different and yet are, are put in the same box.

B (18:12)

It is wonderful when, when you do get that feedback. Simon has been experiencing it since we did the podcast of just getting this feedback of just like, thank you so much for, for just speaking out and we shouldn't have to. That's the crazy thing. We, we spend so much time and put so much effort in, into doing these things. And it's, believe me, it's not financial gain. We all have, we all have full time jobs. We all make money from our jobs. This, this is passion. This is because we know how necessary this is. You started this for Kellen. I started this for my own mental health.

C (18:58)

Else to die.

B (18:59)

Yeah. We needed an outlet and it's just, it's so nice to, to know that there's people out there that are really.

A (19:08)

Appreciative of it and those that can't relate personally. There's enough in there to, I mean one, one Dean who's neurotypical, she wanted her entire department to see it because it's talking about just larger empathy and being more aware that people, regardless of what you see, are experiencing the world in different ways. So we're coming at it from a neurodivergence and autistic lens. But even beyond that, there's things that's relatable to many other avenues within disability community and just people in general that our societies, at least here in the US is really running from. We are literally going, at least governmentally. Maybe not the people themselves, but the administration, forcing out ideas of diversity representation, of forcing out inclusion, literally diversity inclusion and all of those things that, you know, that's the antithesis to pushing those things out. That's the antithesis to what this film is about. It's about belonging, it's about opening people's minds. It's about creating spaces for empathy and understanding. So, yeah, I'm so glad that you both were able to see it. And I hope we're right now waiting to hear back from kind of tier one film festivals to see where it can do its world premiere. So we, we can't do massive public screenings yet. And it's just, this is the worst part is just sitting on this. I have, we have this. And now it has to play this industry game and it's just torture for me. So these private screenings, hearing what people are saying, hearing from both of you, that that keeps me going with this until it can get out there. But in order for it to have the greatest impact, it has to. Has to go this route. This is what all the professionals that are advising and supporting this is the. That that were. That we're going. So. But if anybody has a.

B (21:10)

Are you saying that it's not on my coming soon list on Netflix then.

A (21:16)

So if anybody, any of your listeners, has any agents out there that want to help shop it around, it's. It's a. It's a very tough industry. I'm just an academic, right, that can, has all these mad autistic skills to like, hyper focus and just figure out and do a thing. But I, I. Networking is not one of, I don't go around going like, hey, hollyw, you know, I, that is, that is not who I am. Hopefully we'll, we'll see if we can get on a major platform. That's, that's the goal, to have the greatest reach and therefore greatest impact we possibly can with this film.

B (21:49)

But should we have a break?

C (21:51)

Yeah, I think we shall when we come back. Brett, I would love to. You know, this film is so personal. I'd love to hear sort of how it's changing your life and it sounds like such an important tool that I will definitely be sharing it with people. So we'll take a break. We'll be right back. This is a neurodivergent experience. Public announcement. If you live in England and you or a loved one is waiting for an autism or ADHD assessment, you don't have to wait years. RTN Diagnostics is now part of the NHS Right to choose scheme, which means if your local wait for a consultant led autism or ADHD assessment is more than 18 weeks, you can choose RTN instead and it won't cost you a penny. Jordan chose RTN for his own family because their care and attention to detail were second to none. They didn't just diagnose autism and adhd, they looked at the full picture, including pda, ocd, anxiety and more. The team is friendly, neuroaffirming and comprises many neurodivergent individuals, so they truly understand getting started is simple. Download the GP referral letter and questionnaire from the link in our show notes. Take those to your GP and ask for a referral to RTN Diagnostics. If approved, RTN will be in touch within eight weeks to begin your assessment. Remember, this only applies in England and some exclusions do apply. RTN is not currently able to accept referrals for child ADHD assessments, so check the details before you start RTN diagnostics, helping you get the answers you deserve without the wait. Welcome back to the Neurodivergent Experience. You're here with Simon Scott and Jordan James and we are joined by Brett Malley, incredible filmmaker and also a friend of the show and ours personally. We've been discussing his new film, the Divergent Gift Unboxing Autism. And it is. It's such an incredible film and I think it's going to be such a wonderful tool. Not Just for autistic people to, you know, don't tell them, show them. But I also think as well for holistic people, it's. It's a great conversation starter to create even communication. So I'm intrigued. Brett, there's so much of you in this film. You know, you are diagnosed on camera. How is making this film changed you and your son Kellen's life, who are such integral parts of this movie?

A (24:28)

Yeah, that. That's really a wonderful and complicated question. It is been, you know, aside from Kellen's birth, right. One of those like, life pivotal moments. This has been one of those major life shifts in, in that for me to better understand Kellen in the context of his school and then for me to really understand my entire childhood and all, all those little node points, right. All those little things that just click into place and you know, I filmed my reaction to receiving the diagnosis and I didn't think I was going to have a reaction. I thought like, oh, I got this list. Clearly it makes sense, right? I relate to all these people. I, I was sort of expecting it, but when I heard and the, the clinician that gave me the diagnosis is also autistic. So that was really important to me to not just hear from. From a doctor, but a doctor that is themselves autistic. When she told me, I was just flooded the array, the, the whole barrage montage of all the childhood, the sensory things. Birthday party, right. These things just like clicked and immediately felt so validating as I'm sure so many others that get late diagnosed start making those connections. And it's different for everyone, right? Some people, it's a slow burn. Like for Ivan, he ruminated on it and in different ways, but for me it was an official thing. So with the film, hearing from all these people, it was like having. While I was unpacking my own diagnosis and learning about my son, it was like having my own private TED talks with interviewing all these amazing people. Jordan and yeah, Eric Garcia. Right. And he's the one front center asking RFK those questions in the press gaggle. Like he was the first one when they started doing that. So being able to have that one on one experience with all of them was, yeah, absolutely life changing. That doesn't even qualify it. But in how it's been empowering is even when I had a rough cut at one of Kellen's schools when we first started, I was able to just take the sections of Kellen that were kind of, you know, important and just handed them like, hey, here's here's an hour worth of footage. I think it would be beneficial. And the teachers watched it, they brought us to the table and we had conversations and we're never treated like that before. And so I'm seeing the power and even just sharing the trailer with some teachers where he's. Kellen is thriving academically in an online homeschool environment. But there are some things there that now even just sending this trailer to this teacher that was trying to box them and they're doing things that should be supportive and that just really aren't, or they're triggering because it's through a neurotypical lens. Even just sending the trailer has made them step back and they literally said, oh, we are doing that through. We need to look at this through multi lens, not a one size fits all. So the film, if that's just the trailer, getting people to come back with that, that kind of reaction and taking it more seriously because it's different than just a parent sending a, you know, an email or something. And this is sad that it takes this, but when you have nice looking framing and when you have right movements and you have, you know, a boy that's, you know, articulate, right? It's, it's sad that it, that it takes this, but I'm glad that with this film, we as a community will have this to be able to just send to that teacher or whoever. And if they're serious about reporting people, then we will, we will have something. Not just me, like, I, I can play it right now because I, because I can. Right? It's my footage. But this, this I really hope has that same impact for so many because it was immediately overnight the difference in what that is. So to answer your question, it's been life changing, it's been empowering. It has opened up my idea of belonging and knowing where I belong within the community and friendships I couldn't have imagined and relating to people in ways that I couldn't have imagined. So it's been a wild and really beautiful journey.

B (28:47)

I mean, that's fantastic. I mean, I can definitely see this being something that, like, let's say, like, you think someone in your family may be neurodivergent. A book that's, that's a long slog. If someone sends me a book, I'm like, right, podcast. Not everyone's in the podcast. It's. It's kind of like, it's, it's more of a difficult thing for some to go listen to this. But a documentary, it's way more likely that People are going to watch a documentary that someone sends them and just says, look, this is what it's like that or grandparent that is one of those grandparents that like, oh, the autism wasn't around in my day. It's, oh, we can't be autistic. He doesn't act like that kid in that class with the giant headphones. It's going to be so much easier to share and for people to digest in that form than I think any other form, including articles and stuff, because especially if you're neurodivergent, you might struggle to be, you know, reading. Anyway, what I wanted to ask as well, because you don't talk about this enough on, in the documentary, is that when you did get diagnosed, what was the reaction of the people around you, like your family, not, not Kellen and, and your wife, but, but like other members of your family and your friends or your colleagues? Like, I've never asked you this, but it suddenly came into my head, like, how did they react to it?

A (30:24)

So this has been interesting. I've been, I've been teasing with it as well, because when I, when I tell my close colleagues that I teach with or family members, it's either that they're still in denial or some. Or something or. Or they're like, well, yeah, oh, that's, that's good. We have the name to, you know, it wasn't masking for it.

B (30:47)

That's why you never take that hat off.

C (30:50)

That makes sense.

B (30:51)

That's why. I swear, I swear when we were in Canada, Brett and we were staying. Brett stayed with me in Canada for a little bit. I swear. You went to have a shower with your, with, with your cowboy hat on.

A (31:05)

So I think, I think it, the way it had a click of making sense for me. I think there was a kind of a similar experience with those around me of where everyone's going like, ah, you know, like just, just certain things that could otherwise not be explained in certain ways. Just, you know, what we would just say is eccentricity. That's why I went into, you know, teaching. I could be the fit into that, you know, role or whatever, whatever you call of the, you know, eccentric, you know, professor. And that, that seemed like a safe avenue. And then I could, you know, info dump the things that I love. So it worked out. But yeah, I think it made sense. I called my longest friend, my friend from kindergarten, right. That we went through high school and we still were in contact all through college. And so I messaged him and his response was, yeah, that tracks and, like, okay, I don't. I don't. I don't quite know how to take it because I don't think he's come in touch with his own neurodivergence. But. But there was. It was good to see that it wasn't. I don't know that. That I. I wasn't ailing. I feel very lucky in my family member. I am extremely privileged in that I have a supportive family. We're all quirky, obviously, right? It's genetic. And they've just support anything that I've wanted to do. They've just been there. And even if we don't hear from each other, we've always had the, you know, autistic culture thing where when we do see each other, it's like no time has passed whatsoever. We're just right there. Nothing has changed. You know, there's no big building thoughts of, oh, they're thinking this about me. It's just, oh, we're right there. So it really didn't change much for my family, other than my son, for Kellen. And I know you said, but anybody other than Kellen. But for him, he says it was just very. I don't remember the exact language he has, but just really wonderful to not be alone. To have someone else that gets it and to have that label for me, for him, was really empowering. That he knows that he's got someone right there, you know, different. Different profile and, you know, elements to it, but that that could get them and that could advocate and that we could totally resonate on these different things, even in our own different, you know, presentations and sensory profiles and all of that. That he had an ally in house, that that was so big for him and therefore, that. That was the most impactful reaction to me.

C (33:54)

And I think that's one of the things that I love so much about this film, is it has the gift of visualizing so much of our experiences, the use of animation in this film, like when Jordan's discussing synaptic pruning, those shots in that film, it simplifies it in such a coherent way to be able to explain such a complex experience of our existence. It simplifies it in a way where I recognize it. It resonates with me, and it makes me feel like I'm coming home. That's one of the big takes that I take from this film. And also as well, I think the importance of you showing you getting your diagnosis is such a human moment. It's not, you know, a film about somebody who is it's not fantastical. It's a man hearing who he is for the first time and having that confirmed. And you. The. The way that we sit with you when we process that emotion. It made me relive my own diagnosis. But it also made me realize that so many people have such a. An extreme idea of what receiving your diagnosis is. And really it's not real. It's not necessarily like coming home. It's realizing that you have one.

B (35:13)

It really humanizes it.

C (35:15)

Yeah, it's. That's the. So important to me, so important that.

A (35:18)

It does that I was so on the fence from a personal side. Like, does this add anything? Because for me I'm like, no, this doesn't add. Do people need to see this? And I realized like, no, this really. This really needs to be in there. Editing that has been. Oh, I bet that was tough with it. The most awkward but also very empowering moment was I watched it in our theater where I teach big amphitheater. And sitting just two rows in front of me, right in front of me is the college president that came to this screening and all of the exec team. Right. My boss's boss's boss. Right. They're all there watching this moment. And so while I, While I squirm the reaction that I got afterwards, I am just so thankful to live and to work in a community that fully embraced me, that was able to see that and just say, hey, wonderful film. You belong here. And that is very rare. And that's what I wish to bring to other communities. But yeah, that moment of knowing that, you know, coming out in that way in front of, you know, people that I. That I work for in this institution, that was really tricky. But I'm. I think it adds. Adds to the power of. Of the experience. And again, everyone's moment is. Is going to be different. But I'm. I'm glad that I was able to capture mine.

B (36:52)

Yeah, I can't wait to be able to share it, you know, because. Because you talk about your. Your bosses. Bosses, bosses seeing. Yeah. And their reaction. And despite all my advocacy, despite everything that I do and all the people that I know, I still get treated at work a bit better than most, I will admit. But I still get treated as a problem. They still won't listen. I have offered my services. I can't think of many people that are neuro affirming that wouldn't bite my hand off if I said I will give you a free training seminar or a talk or something like that right now to help people Understand in the workplace. I offered that to my company and. Yep, that sounds amazing. Thank you so much. Nothing. I didn't hear anything and I still, I, I still don't hear anything.

A (38:04)

Yeah.

B (38:05)

You know, and I'm not going to dox my company or anything, but like just imagine most companies, that is most companies and the only reason that, that I get any sort of favor whatsoever when it comes to being neurodivergent is because of who I am. And you shouldn't have to be a well known advocate with a book and star of his own documentary.

C (38:34)

Couldn't help myself.

A (38:35)

Sorry.

B (38:36)

I love it. I love teasing you lot. You shouldn't have to have a high profile just to get bog standard accommodation. I don't need a lot of accommodating. My job is very good, I'm very good at it. I've been doing it for coming up 18 years. But there are accommodations that I need and even I had to go through, I had to go jump through hoops in order to get them and it's not okay. But I do feel like honestly, this documentary could just be played in so many different workplaces. Imagine playing it for the NHS in England who don't really understand neurodivergence to the level they should. And there's, there's so many people. Because I think one of the biggest problems when it comes to neurodivergence is, and is because we're all so different. There isn't a one size fits all, but there is, there is this idea of like, well, let's just talk to them rather than say, oh, this one is autistic. So this is how we're going to do this, or this is what we're going to do. Just, just talk to them. So when, when I had occupational health, I spoke to an amazing guy who basically said, what do you need? Like how does neurodivergence affect you? What do you need because of it? And he wrote it all down and he sent it to my work and he said, you have to do this now. Because the Disabilities act, it's not often that somebody actually says, well, what do you need? And I think that's what the documentary shows, is the fact that we're all so different and we all need completely different accommodations, completely different assistance, completely different support, but we all need it. So it's just sit down and say, okay, what do you need? And I think it's so important for schools to do that with kids rather than saying, oh, this is what you do with autistic kids. Or this is what you do with ADHD kids, or this is what you do with the dyslexic kids.

C (40:35)

Because it's written down one size fits all, sort of.

B (40:38)

Exactly. And I'll tell you, one of the most annoying things is that it's like, oh, if you've got a diagnosis of dyslexia, ADHD or autism, you get 25% extra time on your exams. And I'm like, that one that doesn't work for everyone. That just might work for some people. Some people might need 50% extra time. Some people might need a completely separate room. Some people might need not to go into school and be able to do it at home and be. I can't think of the amount of things that need to change to individualize the support and care for neurodivergent people overall. But I think that this documentary is definitely an example of how much it's needed.

A (41:27)

It's been really empowering for me as an educator, as a teacher who has a very high. You know, I teach at a community college, and there's a higher percentage of autistic and neurodivergent individuals that come to community college for support. We're better. And what I've noticed is after filming this and hearing from everyone and my friendships, it has changed how I look at how I structure my classes, the kinds of assignments. So I am so thankful that it's allowed me to grow professionally in how I support others, because I'm in a support role. And what's also really great is seeing that there are more, at least in my community, more openly autistic people talking about, oh, I'm autistic or I'm neurodiver. I have this, you know, dyslexia or adhd. And them talking about it immediately helps everyone with stigma with being able to provide the proper supports. What does it mean for you? And so I have this one student that now I know he's autistic, and he tried one of my classes last year and there was none of this communication. And I didn't have them before, and all we got was the, oh, yeah, allow 25. You know, I think it's, yeah, 1.25, you know, percent of. For time on tests, and that's. That was it. He couldn't get inspired. But in the class, there was nothing that sparked interest and therefore that made it so laborious. And I didn't know because as an educator, you don't want to, like, go too far and just assume one way or the other with Anything but this next round. He contacted me early. He says, hey, is there a way we can look at all these assignments and figure out how to match them with my interests so that way I can be engaged? I'm like, you're speaking my language because that's how my son works, right? And so I'm like, yes, every single assignment, let's check in and figure out, all right, how. How does this make. Spark something that you're like, ooh, I really want to do this. And let's make it fit, you know, the parameters of. Of what's needed for the outcomes of this class. And I can do that for. For a number of students in different ways. That's the other thing is one, once you open up accommodations and the mindset around accommodations, it's not just going to help that one individual that reached out. It starts a kind of thinking for accommodating, for different ways of being and different ways of expressing or being able to follow through with a thing. It starts just a different mindset of how, at least as an educator, for me, looking at my classroom and how to best support my students and what their end goals are. So much of education, at least just from several years ago in my mind, was like, okay, this is the class. You have the syllabi. Okay, here's the late poly, here's. And it's just so prescribed and so rigid. And that's the contract. And I was always, you know, wanted to accommodate and move things, but it is. It's shifted my own experience. Hearing from everyone and hearing from. With sensory, you know, just all these things that. That could be a trigger or keep someone from getting the success that they deserve and should be able to pursue, even just pursue that has been really empowering for me through the making of this film, to be able to apply that to different aspects of my life and profession. It's. I hope that. I hope that can be for others as well. Other educators were also thinking differently, and the discussions after the private screening of the film were all around like, yeah, how do I make this more accessible? Or what are different ways to come at it? And just not thinking outside the box or. Many autistics, there is no box. You just think you have to solve the problem creatively. And we can absolutely do that as a society.

B (45:17)

Yeah, we. We can't give up. Especially now, which is. Is what we're going to focus on in the third part of the show, is why this documentary is now more important than what, three years ago, two years ago, when we first met it was important then. Yeah. You procrastinating much? Oh, no, I'm a it. I know. I love you.

C (45:46)

All right, well, let them fight out during the break. We'll be right back. Have you ever felt stuck in patterns that don't serve you, struggled with stress, or wanted to connect more deeply with yourself? Then I have to introduce you to a friend of the podcast, Ashley Bentley of integrated coaching, breathwork and hypnotherapy. Ashley is a highly experienced clinical hypnotherapist and coach specializing in working with neurodivergent minds. Through a unique blend of integrative coaching, breathwork and hypnotherapy, Ashley helps people rewire subconscious patterns, regulate their nervous systems, step into more empowered versions of themselves. Whether you're dealing with addiction, anxiety, burnout, or struggles with self acceptance, Ashley offers practical and science backed tools tailored just for you. Her unique methods combine neuroscience, storytelling, subconscious transformation to create real, lasting change. Jordan and I can personally attest to the profound and transformative effects of her sessions, which have been life changing. She does all of these sessions online, meaning she can work with you no matter where you are in the world. If you're ready to break free from old patterns and start living with more clarity, confidence and connection, go to bit lynch forward slash. Ashley nde to book a free consultation or learn more. Welcome back to the neurodivergent Experience, part three of the show. We're here with Brett Malley, wonderful filmmaker and great friend. We've been discussing his film which obviously, you know, it just, it sounds so, so incredible. But right now it's ammunition while we're in the trenches, isn't it, Brett? I'm very early in, in the world of, you know, being in this community and doing this film and also watching it has really opened my perspectives to a lot of different people and the way that we all live and see the world. But the world that I'm seeing right now as a Brit looking over the pond is, is a frightening one, Brett.

B (47:55)

Seeping over here as well.

A (47:57)

So I'm, I'm in the United States. I live in Oregon. Northwest. Yeah, it's a beautiful. The rain has finally come. But yeah, it's, it is, it is a frightening place to be in many ways, as, as an advocate, as a creative, as, as an educator. It is the, it is a different place than when, when the film started, when we started filming, it had all the support, momentum. It seemed culturally right. Everything was, was sort of going this direction, is going to ride this. And now rather than riding this wave this wave is going back and now I see it as this, this rock that has to, or this, what do you call the barriers? Right. Whatever. Something that has to defend against erosion or something. Right. Something that pushes back on this, this other kind of tsunami that is, it's really scary. We mentioned earlier, I wake up reading the news and you know, aside from all of the autistic proclamations and all of those things. Yeah, it's, it's kind of a frightening place to be. And all the more importance when feeling so helpless in the barrage of this insanity that I feel like I'm in. This is a place that I can push back, that I think culturally can at least show the complete falsehoods and frankly the stupidity of, of some of the assumptions and things that are out there that are. That tsunami of it that's coming back, that this can be that, that barrier to help protect some of the erosions that have absolutely happened at least in this country. And it sounds like are spreading a bit more and getting traction in other countries and that, that kind of thinking. So I hope that this can be a tool and I know it's needed.

B (50:05)

As, as such, I think your definition, Scotty, of it being ammunition for the fight is literally spot on because, because that is literally what it is. I know that, that when I came out well over a year ago, isn't it, I, I, I had a bit of a culture shock because I, I had this idea of what America was going to be like and I got out there and went, oh no, no, no. And, and that, that was under Biden and it was like, yeah, it's, it's like you guys love a flag.

A (50:39)

I'm like, and you, you came to Oregon? Yeah. You didn't go to some of the other states?

B (50:44)

I was gonna say Oregon is pretty, pretty left. And, and I, I was, I mean it was beautiful and I loved it and the people were all friendly and, and I, you know, but I'm not gonna lie, I way prefer Canada.

C (50:59)

Me too.

B (51:00)

Oh yeah. When we did Canada together, that, oh.

A (51:04)

That was, that was timeshare, like. Yeah, yeah.

B (51:08)

See, if I was you now, I'd, I'd be in the car, I'd be driving up there and I'll be claiming like as a refugee from the war torn mess that is the United States. I don't know because from our perspective of everything that we read and all this talk from Trump about like the military and the Department of War now, and basically he's gone to war with the left. The left. Loonies. As he calls them, and antifa. And making them out to be a criminal terrorist organization. And it's, it's crazy. It's like we look at it from over here and we're like, this is lunacy. Like this, this is, this is a dictator. This is like a North Korean dictator wannabe. Yeah, it does it feel like that day to day, you're in the country, you go out. How. How does it feel?

A (52:05)

Yeah, it's. Well, reading the news again, we're probably, you know, get our sources from there. You know, I have family in the D.C. area. I have family that work for the government and have worked for the government. You know, I work for a public institution, state. State institution with the community college. So we get updates on what certain proclamations. And I'll call them proclamations because they're just, they're not, they're not anything, you know, based on data how that affects our students, right from. From financial aid to. We have a large Hispanic population and proudly so. Right. We, we have these communities that are even more vulnerable than they were. Our trans community are. Right. I have a number of trans students. And seeing how it affects these different populations that my Venn diagram overlaps has, has been so disheartening and heartbreaking and it's, it's really scary. I'm scared for them, you know, for my own family with, with some of the things. And at the same time it's also just this, it's also just nonsense. Maybe he's talking about the, the war ravaged Portland and okay, Portland is just north of us. I have family living in port. Like that was all my, all of the. You've been to Portland?

B (53:31)

I liked Portland.

A (53:32)

It's. It's beautiful. It's like, yeah, there's, there's homelessness problem and the two point whatever million dollars. Right. That they'd be sending to send soldiers out here. Just imagine the good that you could do somewhere with that money.

B (53:45)

Spend the money on helping homeless people. Not sending soldiers in to scare the crap out of the poor homeless people because homeless people are people like I, I just felt so sorry for every single person I saw out there because I'd never seen it on such a grand scale. And, and it was, it was shocking. But all I could think of is like where's, like for the. For allegedly the greatest country in the world. Really?

A (54:15)

That's.

B (54:15)

That's the greatest country in the world? Get over yourself, America.

A (54:19)

There, there's such vague, vague words like great or you know, that. That are used that people just Put so much, put, put so much of their own idea of that. And is it great that that housing costs, things have been so commercialized that banks have done what they've done. There's no regulations that we now have homeless population, those that are autistic and that don't fit in certain boxes are excluded even more easily or a higher percentage of homeless or whatever, whatever it might be. Is that great that we have no health safety nets? Health care safety net. Right. All these, all these things. You can see my own ideologies here. But I love the country, the land itself. I love many of the people within it that, that we share. But you mentioned the American flags. I. We drive through these areas where, you know, my son and I will joke, like, what country? Oh, yeah, okay. We're in the U.S. i was a little bit, you know, I didn't quite remember where we're. Oh, yeah, look, we're still in the US and so it's just when there's so much pain and suffering and, and lack of empathy, withdrawing from empathy. I just, personally, yeah, I don't feel very proud of being part of this country that I'm in. But it's where my family is. It's where my job is, where I know I can do good to make this country better and to help some of the people that are in it in the small way that I can. But while a lot of these things are happening with the big orange megaphone, right that is at the top right now, the people. That's not a majority. So the underlying people that make the community that have all the support agencies that are there, those still exist, they're being attacked. There's all these things happening, but they don't have this megaphone to counteract the presidency and an entire administration the same way. And so what we hear is super dramatic on the level that we all sort of make a difference. It hasn't changed a whole lot other than probably at least for me, feeling less safe around this administration, more fearful for our students that are impacted, more fearful for our community because it can have things. But there's a lot of pushback at the same time, so. And Portland will outlive the Cheeto.

C (56:53)

So I think one of the things that, I mean, I often have been described as a Yankee file by British friends because I have always really loved America. I have a lot of American friends. I've always really enjoyed my own time in the country. I've done the east coast, the west coast and the south, and everywhere I have been, I'VE enjoyed hospitality, good people, kind people. One of the things that, that breaks my heart so much now is this idea of this. There's such division and you can almost see the culture of the thirteen colonies and the breakaway sort of happening again. And as somebody who understands European history, there was so much migration and there was so much just, you know, bigotry that was deeply ingrained in right wing politics in Europe. And the thing that I find so baffling now is the hypocrisy of it all, Brett, is the hypocrisy of preaching free speech where everybody is accountable except the lucky few. We are America first, but for the right American and a country that is built on the foundation of immigration is now attacking immigrants. And it absolutely baffles me and I do fear for all of the American people that I love that we are going to experience in a great country what happened in Europe in the 30s. You know, we aren't far away from brown shirts knocking on doors and removing undesirables. And in certain places it's already happening.

A (58:27)

Oh, that is. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's just ICE agents and. Yeah, no, it's, it's again, I feel, yeah, it's, it's a mix. While I don't fear some things from my own family in certain ways, I mean, look, my, my grandfather came from Syria to get his, his Ph.D. over here and you know, like you said, it's a family of the whole nation that unless you're native, this, it's just lunacy for sure. And it's on, on such a level that's tragic. And we see the highlights with ICE doing that, you know, walking around the streets, that's not constant and everywhere, but the fact that it is happening and happening more, that is, it's, it's alarming and disheartening and I, I don't know where, where empathy, why it has disappeared or it feels like it has at least why that shouldn't be part of, of what makes America great. I don't. For trying to get in that mindset. I don't, I don't. I can't fathom how that's not a part of that definition because that is for me, what it kind of all dials down to is there's just such a gross and massive lack of empathy. And again, that's something that this film is trying to push back or be the bullet for or be whatever a defending wall for, because I feel like we would all benefit from more empathy in so many ways.

B (60:13)

So, yeah, I Mean, I've always felt the narrative of autism from the US always seems more negative than it does in the uk. And that goes for European countries as well. I mean, I remember when I was first doing the Autistic Experience book, Marie Locke, who is from Switzerland, she was saying, in Switzerland, it's. It's literally the same as the us, but because, like, you know, there's that phrase, you know, when the US coughs, everyone else catches the cold. And that's the thing, is that the UK does tend to be far more independently independent thinking, whereas Europe and the Middle east and place like that, the American culture, everything out of America tends to be more believed or more heard because it's louder. You guys are always loud. Everything you do is bigger and louder and more impressive. And it's like, even your theme parks, you got like Chessington World of Adventures in the uk, or you go to, like, Disneyland. I mean, and by the way, that I think it's wonderful. I love that side of American culture. It's bigger, it's better and it's more impressive. I love that. Be loud, be proud. But the problem is, is that America is so loud and so proud that they'll come out with utter, utter horse crap and the rest of the world just believes it. And then this shit that's coming out of that idiot's mouth or all those idiot's mouths is. It's just going to spread. So all the hard work that we've all been doing, it's almost like we've been writing in a beach. All these positive messages and one wave of Trumpness has just wiped out everything we've done for so many people around the world that it's just going to get worse. That's why this documentary is so important, because anything from America that fights against the negative is, is. Is far more important than, Than anything from the UK or anything from Europe, because the rest of the world all came out and went, nonsense, like Tylenol, or we call it paracetamol, does not cause autism. Like, there's no facts for that whatsoever. But because America said it, or the leaders of America said it.

A (62:55)

Yeah.

B (62:57)

Now holds more weight than every single other country that has turned around and said, no, it doesn't cause autism.

A (63:06)

Yeah.

B (63:08)

It feels like the bully on the playground that can literally be up every other kid, no problem whatsoever. And even if all those other kids try and fight, the bully's just smacking them out the way. Yeah, that's mad.

A (63:23)

Yeah, I. It's. It's interesting in making the film and how it's changed. And I'm glad there's a section of the film that talks about misconceptions. But while we talked about, you know, myths and you know, vaccines being this myth that we still have to live with, you know, when I was hearing Eric say that and, and talk about that, I'm like, oh, that's, you know, oh, there's might be a few holdouts out there that, that still, you know, believe these myths that haven't looked at the data that's out there. And so it has been slap in the face or a wake up call for me to think that that was just sort of like a fringe kind of idea. Some holdouts that, that refuse to look at, you know, have blinders or refuse to look at how things are and then to like one up it with acetaminophen, you know, Tylenol. You know, I, I wish that he mentioned that, but that wasn't even like, so, not part of, you know, like so nonsensical.

C (64:24)

You can't imagine somebody with Eric's authority and knowledge even considering somebody would be saying something like that because there's no.

A (64:33)

Data on that in that way. So. Yeah, so at least he's able to directly say. And I, I think how dismissive Eric is in that one section of the film where, you know, we're still living with this myth that, you know, vaccine, you know, he kind of has it as like eye roll. I feel like that is a helpful pushback and that if we did it now, we would probably make like a bigger deal of all of the myths and it would be like this bigger thing. But having that like, oh, of course that's not, I feel like that that's, that's where we need to bring the conversation back to like, oh, we're still dealing with these kind of fringe ideas so not making an even bigger deal about it and just saying, yep, there's lots of myths. That low key kind of version of talking about those. I hope we sort of center the conversation and into helpful ways. Right. Because then we talk about how to leverage special interests for things in empowering ways and positive, supportive ways. Yeah, it's interesting watching the evolution while trying to make this film while it's, it's moving so fast and there's so many lies that, that are spouted so a barrage. We're being bombarded so massively so quickly that, you know, I think this film will hold up in, in pushing back on that for, for years to come. But yeah, it is, it is Hard living in the US right now for sure.

B (66:03)

My heart goes out to, to all the people out there that have been massively negative affected, but especially to my. My friend and brother. You, Brett. I love you dude. And if. If you ever need to get away, you. You can come to my house.

A (66:19)

Okay?

B (66:20)

I. I have a spare room for you and your family if it ever gets that bad. I will take you in tomorrow.

A (66:27)

That's good to know. Yeah. Canada. All these places.

B (66:32)

Well, there we go. We. We both sell up and we both move into a nice cabin in Canada.

A (66:37)

Canada. Amazing. That's.

B (66:40)

Yeah. Right right in, right in the heart of, of the national parks.

A (66:44)

There we go. I, I think I would like to be support for my community and pushing back and to use this film within the US to change it to back. Back to the better to more empathetic and supportive. Supportive place. So I'll try to, to fight from within.

C (67:02)

That's, that's awesome bro. And all, all, all the power to you and this film. So if people are listening to this and they can't wait until it does hit streaming or public release, where can people can they get access to a private screening? Is this something that's available to the public?

A (67:20)

So yes and no. We have to wait for again one of the major film festivals hopefully that we get into to have that world public premiere. But with that said, if you could join and show support on any of the social, whatever social media that you, you follow, that is one of the things that they look at for this and I am not a social media person, like I can't get myself to do it. So any help in spreading, you know, the word about this film and just sort of those likes, it can help again do a very small way to push back and show that there's interest, show that this is worth getting on a major platform, show that we're thirsty for this. We need this as a community and as a society. So yeah, any, any way that you can follow us. The Divergent Gift on any of the major social platforms is awesome and helpful and then also to go to our website, thedivergentgift.com and if you join our newsletter, there might be opportunities if there's a screening happening near you or someone wants to organize that. That's. Once we start doing, you know, little more screenings, if we can't get to a major public, massive online platform or venue, then that's, then that's definitely gonna be a way to do it. So join our, our mailing list. I don't spam people. Right. It's. It's very seldom that I send something out. Big updates. And then also to join us on any sort of social media, please, please feel free to write us a message. And I can't wait for everyone to see this film. I can't wait soon.

C (68:48)

Neither can I. Well, we'll definitely share a link to the Trader below and we'll put links to Divergent Gifts. And I encourage anybody that is listened to this episode and you're still with us, try and get to see anything from this film. It was such an enlightening project to work on, but also one to view as well. I've shared it with so many people, the trailer, and they've responded with, oh, I understand now. Oh, I get you a little bit better than I did yesterday. And that is. Is such a tool for so many of us that can't create that conversation ourselves. You know, just being able to show them rather than tell them is just such a gift. So, Brett, thank you so much for being with us today. It's been so great to catch up with you, my friend, and wonderful. I really hope everything's as good as it can be where you are and that, you know, people are staying safe. So please go check out this film and we'll definitely catch up soon, bro.

A (69:43)

All right. Thank you so much, Simon. Thank you, Jordan. I appreciate you both keep doing the wonderful work you both do. This is just awesome. We got this, right? As a community. We got this.

C (69:53)

We got this. We got this. Okay, people, thank you so much for tuning in. We will be back tomorrow with a Hot Topic episode. That's your news Friday. As always, take care of yourself, be kind to yourself and be safe if you can, nightly.

B (70:06)

Bye.

C (70:11)

Thanks for tuning in to the neurodivergent Experience. We hope today's episode sparks something for you. Whether it's a new idea, a bit of validation, or just a moment of connection. Remember, new episodes are every week, so be sure to join us for the next one for more conversations and insights into the neurodivergent experience. If you've enjoyed this podcast, help us grow. You can do that by rating and reviewing this show. Your support makes a huge difference in helping us us reach more people who could benefit from these conversations. You can connect with us on social media, find us on Instagram, Facebook, Tik tok. Just search for the neurodivergent experience. Thank you again for listening and until next time, take care of yourself. You're not alone in this journey.