Who Am I Without the Mask? Unmasking as a Neurodivergent Adult

Summary

The Neurodivergent Experience

Episode: "Who Am I Without the Mask? Unmasking as a Neurodivergent Adult"

Host: Simon Scott (solo, with guest Ashley Dupuis)
Date: February 19, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of The Neurodivergent Experience dives deep into the emotional and practical realities of “unmasking” as a neurodivergent adult, centering on the question: Who am I without my mask?
Simon Scott (broadcasting solo this week as co-host Jordan James is away) and returning guest Ashley Dupuis (formerly Bentley) discuss the layers of identity, the challenges of shedding social masks, and the chain reaction this process has on relationships, self-esteem, and daily life. The conversation is candid, supportive, sometimes humorous, and always grounded in lived experience.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

[02:02] – Introductions and The Metaphor of (Re)Naming

• Ashley opens the episode reflecting on her own name change (from Bentley back to Dupuis), using it as a metaphor for unmasking – a return to an earlier aspect of self after years of presenting differently for ease or acceptance.
  • “There’s these things, these different masks that we wear. Some can be taken off, some require a little bit extra work to decide whether they're still useful in certain scenarios.” – Ashley Dupuis [04:50]

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[05:32] – The Continuum of the Unmasking Journey

• Simon shares the realization that unmasking is an ongoing process, not a single moment of revelation. The perspective gained by having “distance behind me” in the unmasking journey is discussed.
  • “I can feel like I can have conversations with people who are going through the unmasking process and I can give them good lived experience advice.” – Simon Scott [06:03]

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[07:10] – The Identity Crisis: “Who Am I Without the Mask?”

• Ashley articulates the struggle of finding a clear sense of self post-diagnosis:
  • Neurodivergent brains often crave certainty, leading to frustration when identity feels nebulous or ever-changing.
  • “We're not just one thing. We're many, many things put together… We can really start to spiral in this identity crisis, this meaning crisis, this who am I beneath this mask?” – Ashley Dupuis [07:30]
• Simon highlights that masks are often reactions to others’ expectations:
  • “A lot of the time the mask reflects who's in front of it, not behind it.” [08:10]

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[09:02] – Are My Past Selves ‘Fake’?

• Ashley notes the fear that masked behaviors mean previous versions of oneself were inauthentic.
  • “The percentage of what is you and what is a mask will be different in any given moment… it feels very destabilizing.” [09:02]

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[10:13–12:07] – Masking as an Evolutionary Survival Strategy & Nervous System Fallout

• Ashley explains masking's evolutionary origins:
  • Rooted in the need to fit into small tribes for survival—modern nervous systems can’t distinguish social discomfort from true danger.
  • “Our nervous systems haven’t caught up. So it feels very frightening... to just be me.” [11:00]
• Simon points out that the stress response (fight/flight/freeze/fawn) is similar whether in mortal danger or feeling out of place at work. [11:07]

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[12:07–14:48] – Lie Detector Analogy & Social Consequences

• Ashley notes continual masking causes chronic nervous system stress – like failing a lie detector.
  • “When you’re used to a lifetime of masking, that feels kind of normal… but when you start to unmask, that feels very threatening.” [13:04]
• Both discuss how unmasking can make loved ones uncomfortable, leading to real interpersonal consequences:
  • “The people in your life that are really good... […] There will be a little bit of adjustment, but they'll get used to it… The people that don’t get used to it… maybe I don’t spend as much time with you as I used to.” – Ashley Dupuis [14:25]

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[15:02–16:02] – Emotional Fallout: Grief, Anger, and “Losing Skills”

• Simon and Ashley identify grief and anger as central, often unexpected emotions mid-unmasking:
  • “As I was unmasking... the things I was very good at masking, I couldn't do as well anymore… I wasn't easy to be around.” – Simon Scott [15:34]
• Loss of previous social coping mechanisms leads to a destabilizing period, both for the unmasker and those around them. [16:02]

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[17:09–19:00] – “Just Be Yourself” Is Not Helpful

• The cliché 'just be yourself' is dissected as a painful oversimplification.
  • “Sometimes the worst thing you could tell anybody is, well, just be yourself. It's like, oh, great. Thank you.” – Ashley Dupuis [17:09]
• Ashley shares personal examples, like her struggle with habitual nodding, as instances where tiny masked behaviors persist, sometimes even when consciously challenged.
  • “I thought, do you know what? Actually, okay, the nodding is just me. I am just gonna keep doing that.” – Ashley Dupuis [19:00]

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[20:04] – Finding Your ‘Neurotribe’

• Simon and Ashley discuss the joy in finding authentic social groups post-unmasking, and the discomfort when older friends struggle with the ‘new’ you:
  • “That's when you will start to attract your tribe, which is brilliant.” – Ashley Dupuis [19:44]
  • “Nothing worse than being at a party and going, I'm killing the vibe. But I can't stop because I'm not finished yet.” – Simon Scott [20:04]

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[25:04–26:45] – Boundaries, Disappointing Others, and the Fawn Response

• Ashley introduces a personal mantra:
  • “I can disappoint people and still be safe.” [25:24]
  • She expands this: “I can be disappointed and still be safe. I can make mistakes and still be safe.”
• Discusses fawning as a nervous-system-driven response, not a deliberate choice—recognizing it opens the door to change.

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[27:24–29:59] – Re-examining Relationships, Narcissists, and Values

• Unmasking reveals which friendships were built on compliance or performance, and attracts manipulative people until boundaries are renegotiated.
• Ashley on predatory social dynamics:
  • “Narcissistic people can pinpoint somebody who's doing that and they make a beeline for you… before you know it… it can be very unnerving.” [28:10]
  • “Find what your core values are in life. That will give you proper boundaries… and help you highlight what's important.” [29:23]

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[32:08] – Performance vs. Connection: Reactions to “Changing”

• Simon shares how respecting his energy limits leads to being seen as “different” or even “passive aggressive”:
  • “When you stop performing, you find out who was connected to you and who was connected to the performance.” [32:08]
  • “I stopped caring about being cool. I just wanted to sort of be myself.” [33:27]
• Ashley confirms that for many, fairweather friends fall away, leaving space for authentic connection.

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[36:34] – Social Circle Shake-Ups and The “Tincture of Time”

• Ashley on realizing how earlier masking led to friendships with manipulative or controlling people, which fade as you unmask.
  • “It can be very, very tough. Very difficult. But it does mean you are starting a new chapter of you will attract the right people in your life. The more you remove that mask and start to really celebrate this new learning of you.” [38:35]

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[39:19] – Deepening Connections

• Both guests agree friendships become more meaningful with unmasking, even as the circle may contract:
  • “Life becomes really deep and meaningful and just… It's really beautiful stuff.” – Ashley Dupuis [39:28]
• Simon notes the pride he feels in creating a welcoming home and building new, deeper friendships after working on his relationship with himself.

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[41:26] – Helping Others as Self-Help

• Ashley shares a pearl of encouragement:
  • “You only need to be one step ahead of somebody to offer advice or help or insight. You don't need to be an expert in anything to help somebody.” [41:35]

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[43:20-45:02] – Treating Unmasking Like “Welcoming Your Demons”

• Simon describes shifting from seeking a cure for ‘demons’ to coexisting with them.
  • “You've got to learn to live with them and recognize them and get to the point where you welcome them in when they come.” [43:21]
• Ashley emphasizes curiosity as a “signal of safety” for the nervous system—moving from shame to inquiry supports growth.

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[49:14–54:10] – You Can’t Always Be Unmasked: Navigating Work and Social Situations

• Both hosts agree being 100% unmasked is not always feasible or safe:
  • Professionalism, office politics, and social decorum often require a functional (if not entirely authentic) mask.
  • “Once you unmask, it's very hard to put it back on.” – Simon Scott [49:14]
  • “How can I stay truthful and authentic to who I am without completely offending everybody that I encounter?” – Ashley Dupuis [52:15]
• Simon: “It’s extremely difficult, especially in… a lot of the environment disables me.” [53:35]

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[56:15–59:05] – The Confusing Reality of Masking: Oversharing, “Grassing,” and Social Norms

• Ashley shares how sometimes even truth-telling can backfire due to unwritten social norms (e.g., accidentally “grassing” on a coworker).
  • “I just thought...I'll tell her. Just completely missed the fact that everybody else in the room knew to stay quiet. And I didn’t.” [56:17]
• Simon notes the challenge of being perceived as “off” for not adhering to expected small talk or social chatter.
• Both recall being chided for “not reading the room” even when mimicking appropriate responses.

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[59:05–62:16] – Regulation as the Foundation of Authenticity

• Simon relates that it's much easier to be authentic when you are well-regulated:
  • “It’s a lot easier to be authentic if you’re regulated. Because if you’re unregulated, it's really hard to mask, especially once the unmasking process happens. Putting it on takes energy.” [59:19]
• Ashley’s advice: focus on curiosity and interest in others to relieve social anxiety and shift out of hypervigilance about others’ opinions.
  • “People's reaction says everything about them, very little about us.” [61:16]

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[62:16–63:22] – Seeing Others’ Masks, Social Empathy, and Healthy Masking

• Both discuss recognizing mask-wearing in others, the wish to reassure them, and the reality that masking can sometimes still serve a purpose.
  • “The more you get to know yourself, the more you'll get to see other people more clearly.” – Ashley Dupuis [28:49] (earlier reflection)

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[63:50] – Advice for Listeners Beginning to Unmask

• Ashley’s Guidance:
  • “Go easy on yourself and recognize… you will likely go on a very exhausting mental journey of re-examining your life… All emotions are valid. And so it's important that we don't try and push things away. Allow yourself to feel some complex feelings and know that those things will begin to re-pattern, reorganize within you.” [63:50]
  • Emphasizes that unmasking takes years, and that support, research, and creativity can all be helpful.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “A lot of the time the mask reflects who's in front of it, not behind it.” – Simon Scott [08:10]
• “You only need to be one step ahead of somebody to offer advice or help or insight. You don't need to be an expert.” – Ashley Dupuis [41:35]
• “When you stop performing, you find out who was connected to you and who was connected to the performance.” – Simon Scott [32:08]
• “I can disappoint people and still be safe.” – Ashley Dupuis [25:24]
• “Sometimes the worst thing you could tell anybody is, well, just be yourself.” – Ashley Dupuis [17:09]
• “It's a lot easier to be authentic if you're regulated.” – Simon Scott [59:19]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [04:11] — Name change as unmasking metaphor
• [07:10] — The core “Who am I?” after diagnosis question
• [09:02] — Are past selves fake? Masking nuance
• [10:13] — Masking from a survival perspective, nervous system impact
• [14:48] — Friends’ discomfort with your unmasking
• [15:02] — The grief and rage of unmasking
• [17:09] — Why “just be yourself” isn’t helpful advice
• [19:00] — Persevering (or letting go of) subtle masking behaviors
• [25:24] — “I can disappoint people and still be safe”
• [32:08] — Discovering which connections were real
• [39:19] — How friendships deepen post-unmasking
• [49:14] — The challenge: you can’t always be unmasked
• [59:19] — The importance of self-regulation for authenticity
• [63:50] — Ashley’s advice: what to do if you realize you’ve been masking

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Conclusion

This episode blends humor, vulnerability, and honest lived experience to illuminate the deeply personal, often nonlinear process of unmasking as a neurodivergent adult. Simon and Ashley remind listeners that while the journey involves grief, loss, and adjustment, it can — over time — yield deeper self-knowledge and more meaningful connections.

Actionable takeaways:

• Embrace curiosity towards your own patterns without shame.
• Understand that losing old connections makes room for authentic relationships and self-respect.
• Recognize that regulation and self-care are prerequisites for authentic unmasking.
• Remember: “You only need to be one step ahead of somebody to help.”

This episode is deeply validating for anyone questioning their own masking, seeking language for the experience, or looking for solidarity in a complex journey of neurodivergent selfhood.

Transcript

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[Simon Scott]

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[Ashley Dupuis]

La Brega is back. This season we're spending time with the people and symbols that represent Puerto Rico. We're proud boricuas and what does that mean? And we are still in the fight. We're telling stories about champions from a place worth fighting for. Stories that will inspire you no matter where you're from.

[Simon Scott]

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[Ashley Dupuis]

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[Simon Scott]

Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com. Welcome to the neurodivergent Experience Podcast, a podcast where we share the lived experiences of neurodivergent people to help create a better understanding for our community. Join us every week as we bring you honest, raw and inspiring conversations with specialists, advocates, and individuals who know exactly what it's like to live the neurodivergent Experience. I'm Jordan James, a neurodivergent specialist, father of neurodivergent children, husband to a neurodivergent wife and author of the Autistic Experience. And I'm joined by my best friend. Friend, I'm Simon Scott. I'm an autistic ADHD broadcaster, actor and advocate. Join us as we journey into unraveling the neurodivergent experience. Hello everybody. Welcome to this week's episode of the Neurodivergent Experience. I'm Simon Scott, and I'm without Mr. Jordan James. It's currently nearly midnight. Wherever he is, he's still in New Zealand. He will be back as of recording next week. But you're gonna just have to put up with my dulcet tones. But I'm not alone, don't worry. I am with the wonderful Ashley Dupuis. You may know her as Ashley Bentley, but we've had a little bit of a name change. Ashley.

[Ashley Dupuis]

Yes. And well done on the pronunciation. That was perfect.

[Simon Scott]

I'll not repeat it again for the whole episode, just to be sure.

[Ashley Dupuis]

Oh, thank you so much for having me on today. Yes. Those of you might know me as Ashley Bentley. I've gone back to my maiden name, which is Dupuis, in advance of getting married next year. So.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah. How exciting for you.

[Ashley Dupuis]

Yes.

[Simon Scott]

Well, that almost falls on quite. Almost like poetically, doesn't it, on what we're gonna be talking about today? Because in a way, that is a form of unmasking, isn't it?

[Ashley Dupuis]

Yes, you're so right. You're so right. And it's been really. It's been really interesting how things. How different things have been since I've gone back to my maiden name. I had a couple of nights of weird sleep, and suddenly it was just. Which I wasn't expecting. But actually, now I'm looking back on it, I was like, how did I not expect to have a weird sort of re. Patterning. Reorganization of my inner world with this going back to. I mean, I haven't been Dupuis since 2002, so.

[Simon Scott]

Wow. Goodness me.

[Ashley Dupuis]

Yeah.

[Simon Scott]

I mean, not a short little. Little window of time.

[Ashley Dupuis]

I know. Well, I got divorced back in 2010, and I just. I was on the radio at the time, and Bentley is so much easier to pronounce. And to be honest, I was just being a bit lazy as well. I was like, let's just keep it. Let's just keep it. So I just thought, you know what? In advance of getting married, let's go back to the maiden name and. Yeah, go from there. But you're absolutely right. There's these things, these different masks that we wear. Some can be taken off, some require a little bit extra work to decide whether they're still useful in certain scenarios. But, yeah, I'm really glad to be here today.

[Simon Scott]

No, and it's falling on a very fun time, Ashley, because I feel like at this moment in time, especially with. And listeners all know I'm currently working on developing the autistic culture podcast network. More news on that to come. Quite exciting. But one of the things that I'm now starting to start to realize is that I actually have a little bit of distance behind me in my unmasking journey now for such a long period of time. I still felt like I was really at the beginning of my path and sort of having all of that road in front of me and going, well, I've got this to navigate, I've got this to think about, I've got this to develop. And I'm actually at the stage now where I can feel like I can have conversations with people who are going through the unmasking process and I can give them good lived experience advice.

[Ashley Dupuis]

Yeah.

[Simon Scott]

Because I feel like I'm now further down that road. But one of the things that it has made me very aware of is reflecting on how intense and sometimes difficult the unmasking process can be and a lot of the knock on effects that come from it.

[Ashley Dupuis]

Yes.

[Simon Scott]

So I thought maybe we could really discuss this because you and I have done obviously in private, a fair amount of work on identity and self and inner child work and imposter syndrome.

[Ashley Dupuis]

Yes.

[Simon Scott]

And one of the things that I would love to have a little discuss, the beginning of our discussion on unmasking is a question I think so many people ask themselves whether they're late diagnosed or just sort of, you know, in the child to parent pipeline is who am I without my mask?

[Ashley Dupuis]

Yes, yes. So and so often, you know, we, our beautiful neurodivergent brains, we want answers. We want answers. And that is a question that has many different answers. There's not one answer as to who you are and that's relevant in any given moment in your life. You know, we all have these rich, rich inner worlds and so we're not just one thing. We're many, many things put together. And that again, doesn't feel very helpful to a neurodivergent brain that wants a definitive answer. So that alone becomes very frustrating and it becomes a sort of, we can really start to spiral in this identity crisis, this meaning crisis, this who am I beneath this mask? And of course there isn't just one mask either, is there? There's lots of different masks.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah. A lot of the time the mask reflects who's in front of it, not behind it. And you know, after speaking to so many people that are late diagnosed and, and just sort of understanding neurodivergent people, I think so much of the, the what am I question is so consuming. You know, you have such a hyper focus on pre diagnosis, trying to not figure out who you are, but what you are. Why do I behave in this way? Why am I obsessed with washing machines? As an example, as a special interest? You know, there are a lot of questions that sort of come back to you that you don't have an answer for that then the diagnosis somewhat reveals, but it's what you're left with after that. It's the, well, who am I? Because of these things, do they make me who I am? Who am I?

[Ashley Dupuis]

Yeah, exactly. It's sort of like, well, so you know, looking back and noticing points where you were obviously masking, you think, well, okay, does that mean that wasn't me at all? Is there any bit of me in there? And of course, you know, again, this is where it's, it's so nuanced and it will be different for, for every scenario. There will be elements of you, of course, but you know, the percentage of what is you and what is a mask will be different in any given moment. So again, this, it's, it's a very nuanced sort of thing. And so often I, I, I get so many people coming to me with this very problem, this sort of like, okay, now I, I've realized I'm neurodivergent. I'm sort of in the middle of my life. What do I do now? You know, I don't know who I am beneath this mask, these masks. And, and that feels very destabilizing, very. You know, the whole point of masking is to try and feel safe. Basically. That's what we're trying to do.

[Simon Scott]

You're trying to ground yourself essentially, aren't you?

[Ashley Dupuis]

Yes, yes. And again, it always goes back to this brain and nervous system that is built for our hunter gatherer ancestors where we lived in small tribes. And it was vital that you got along with the people you were around with. You absolutely admit your very survival. So masking back then was actually beneficial to your survival, but it's not now. We live in a very different world and our nervous systems haven't caught up. So it feels very frightening to be, to be honest, to, to go, to think about going out into the world and just be me. Oh my God, A, I don't know what that looks like or B, I know what that looks like and it's not going to get a good reaction.

[Simon Scott]

Oh, not at all. And I think you've touched on a great point there in that the nervous system cannot tell the difference between Survival and social survival.

[Ashley Dupuis]

Yes.

[Simon Scott]

You know, being in an office space and feeling like you're not fitting in and progressing in your career has a similar internal reaction to I'm being hunted. You know, you feel like you're really failing and that, you know, your fight or flight freeze fawn is all kicking in and you're like, how do I survive this situation? Yes, but there is almost like no life threat in there in a way, is there? And that's a really confusing, damaging sort of place to be when you're trying to. To fit into that. One of the things that really happened to me with the unmasking process was going from like, well, I would just overcorrect a lot of things. So I was very sort of reserved and kept my opinions to myself. And once the unmasking process started to happen, I didn't necessarily automatically go to what felt natural. I went, well, this is what I have to do. I'm an unmasked autistic person now. So I'm going to be very blunt and tell you absolutely everything I think feels. And that doesn't go well.

[Ashley Dupuis]

Yeah, it's like we're trading one threat for another. And you know what's interesting is this is how so lie detector tests work. Because when we're hooked up to a lie detector test and we're asked a question and we lie, the reason why that registers on the lie detector is because we get a very strong reaction from our nervous system when we say something that is counter to what we know inwardly is true. So this is, this means if you are continually masking, your nervous system is feeling so under threat, so very much under threat. And so, but that, that threat that's happening when, when you're used to a lifetime of masking, that feels kind of normal that you're, you're almost not registering that threat that your nervous system is registering, but when you start to unmask, that feels very threatening.

[Simon Scott]

It's a different type of, doesn't it?

[Ashley Dupuis]

Yeah, Y. And it's just sort of like this is, you know, and you're gauging reaction and you've got your hyper focus on trying to see are people, are people okay with this? And you know, you, you start to register the. Your threat detection goes up. So even if people are okay with it, you might register a different reaction than what's actually happening because you do feel under threat. But as we both know, also, you might also get some very real reactions from people going, yeah, I don't like this new you. And that is a really, really tough one. But there is some real science behind that as well. I mean, basically our friends and loved ones who know us very well, when we start to act differently and that's any kind of different, even if it's much better, even if our friends and loved ones know that we're being more authentic and it still feels different to what they're used to, and that will automatically. There will be an adjustment period. The people in your life that are really good and want the best for you, there will be a little bit of adjustment, but they'll get used to it and that'll be fine. The people that don't get used to it, well, that's a really good sign that, you know what actually do I really want you in my life as much as I have before? If you prefer the mask, then, you know, maybe I don't spend as much time around you as I used to. It's a tough one.

[Simon Scott]

It's extremely a tough one. Because the overriding emotion, like the common median of the emotion that I think most people feel, especially those that I have spoken to, is grief.

[Ashley Dupuis]

Yes.

[Simon Scott]

And anger as well. And a lot of people, especially within my inner circle and my family as well as I started to unmask, noticed my, my rage and my grief and they couldn't quite understand why I was. Because I was not necessarily that I was like unmasked at that moment, but I found as I was unmasking the things that I was very good at masking, I couldn't do as well anymore.

[Ashley Dupuis]

Yes.

[Simon Scott]

So the, when I was irritated or not regulated very well, I, I wasn't easy to be around Ashley.

[Ashley Dupuis]

Sure, sure.

[Simon Scott]

It was, it was a hard time for the people sort of around me. And I, as a, as a pattern recognizer and a data gatherer and a bottom up processor, could see the effect I was having on people because they didn't know how to navigate me or how to help me anymore. Because what used to work does. Didn't work anymore.

[Ashley Dupuis]

Yeah, yeah, it is. You know, this is, it's a tough journey, you know, as. As you've experienced as I have as well. And likely, you know, most everybody that's, that's listening depending on where they are in their own unmasking journey. It is the grief of God. What could I have been had I known about this earlier and been supported properly so that I could feel free and feel comfortable to be myself and therefore know myself much more deeply? But I do think actually, you know, we can still know ourselves very deeply, even by studying the type of. Of masking that we've been doing. You know, this. That there. There will be lots to learn about ourselves, learning about our masking journey. And you're right. So there's grief, There's. There's anger. There's just this frustration of. Of, you know, sometimes the worst thing you could tell anybody is, well, just be yourself. It's like, oh, great. Thank you.

[Simon Scott]

Great. Yeah. Oh, that. It was so simple. Yeah. Yeah, we'll just do it now. Yeah. Great. Because the thing is, is that one of the reasons as to why so many mask is because we're not comfortable, not necessarily showing who we are as unmasked, but living it authentically.

[Ashley Dupuis]

Yeah.

[Simon Scott]

It feels dangerous.

[Ashley Dupuis]

Yes.

[Simon Scott]

You know, there have been many times where I have been unmasked and the repercussions that have come from that. And rather than sort of analyzing that situation and just going, oh, maybe I wasn't for that person, you go, I can do in that again, like, that's the sort of response that you have. And I'm actually quite intrigued. Ashley, did you experience this yourself? Did you have that sort of anger, grief process when you first started to unmask?

[Ashley Dupuis]

Oh, totally. And, I mean, if I'm honest, Simon, I'm still dealing with it. You know, this is an ongoing thing. Funnily enough, I just thought about this as I. As I'm spying myself in the. In my own camera, and I nod my head a lot. And I think that has been a masking thing of really showing people that I understand or being agreeable. Yeah. And. But it is more of I'm really. I'm understanding you rather than I'm agreeing with you. That has gotten me into trouble before where I've nodded my head, and it's like, it's been something that I haven't agreed with, but I'm understanding. And I thought, oh, gosh, this is. This is messing things up. And funnily enough, just a few months ago, I was really. I thought, right, I'm gonna make a conscious effort. I'm not going to nod my head as much. Um, and of course, you know, my partner came home from work, and he was telling me something, and I was sat there. I was like, right, I'm not gonna nod my head. But it. And it just completely destabilized him because he was like, what are you. You're being different.

[Simon Scott]

What's going on? What's going on?

[Ashley Dupuis]

Something's very strange. Something's off. And it's like, oh, my God. How. How can I How can I find this authentic me? And I thought, do you know what? Actually, okay, the nodding is just me. I am just gonna keep doing that. But, you know, and in social situations, it's also been, been difficult. I, I so like to nerd out on psychology and consciousness and all of this. And so, you know, I really. That's what I love to talk about. And, and that's. I've always loved to talk about that. But I think. And in earlier years, you know, there was lots of partying and things like that. And so some of the. I have a very small group of friends that know that I like to geek out on these sort of things. And I will go off on tangents and I think it's really when you start to unmask, that's when you will start to attract your tribe, which is brilliant.

[Simon Scott]

Oh, there's nothing worse than being at a party and going, I'm killing the vibe. But I can't stop because I'm not finished yet. But I have experienced that so, so, so many times. And I've even done what you were explaining with your partner as well. In where, like, I like. Oh, gosh. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. If you're listening to this and you're nodding along, you're not alone. You're not alone. It's. It's a very unusual experience, isn't it, when you've had friends for such a long time and they know who you are sometimes better than you do because they can witness what, what you're doing and they see you change with different people. And some people accept it and other people don't. And it's very hard to navigate either of those two. So what we'll do is we'll take a quick break here and when we come back, we're going to ask what happens when people may prefer your mask? I'm Simon Scott. I'm here with Ashley Dupuis. We'll be right back.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

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[Simon Scott]

This is a neurodivergent Experience Podcast Announcement if you're looking for a private ADHD or Autism assessment in the uk, RTN Mental Health offers a clear and supportive option without long waits. Private assessments with RTN are gold standard, NHS approved and adhere to NICE guidelines. From the beginning of the process, you'll have access to a Patient Support coordinator who will guide you through every step of your journey, ensuring that you feel heard by and supported. Care at RTN doesn't end at diagnosis with follow up recommendations, medication and therapy options available where appropriate. Jordan chose RTN for his own family because their care and attention to detail was second to none. They didn't just look at ADHD or autism in isolation, they took the time to understand the full picture. The team is neuro affirming, highly experienced and includes neurodivergent professionals who truly get it. To help make private assessment more accessible, RTN is pleased to offer the option to pay in three zero interest instalments with Klarna, allowing you to spread the cost in a way that works for you. Terms and conditions apply. Beginning the process is simple. Visit rtnmentalhealth.co.uk to book your assessment. Now to take the first steps towards understanding and Getting started. In 24 hours, redeem 10% off your booking using Jordan's code JJ007 at checkout. RTN Mental Health offering clarity, care and answers without the wait. Hello, welcome back to the neurodivergent Experience. Simon Scott here and I have the wonderful Ashley Dupuis sitting with me in the place of Mr. Jordan James, who's currently asleep because he's in New Zealand and it's like 12 hours ahead of where we are even though it happens at exactly the same time. But we've been discussing unmasking and one of the things that Ashley touched upon just before we went to the break is how people respond to your different masks and I'm sure this is something that if you are a late diagnosed person or even if you're just sort of questioning it. Hello, welcome. Is this all relevant? Maybe. Check that out. But being told you've changed and how it affects so many of our social relationships. Ashley.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Simon Scott]

Is so difficult to navigate, especially if you're starting the unmasking process with a small circle.

[Ashley Dupuis]

Yes. Yes. And do you know, it's. It's so funny. A mantra sort of came into my consciousness in the last week and it's a really good one. And I'm going to say it right now. And I hope everybody adopts this as your new mantra. I can disappoint people and still be safe.

[Simon Scott]

I can say it for the people in the back. Wow.

[Ashley Dupuis]

Yes. I can disappoint people and still be safe. You know, this is. I have a long history of fawning. And fawning is really interesting. Like, with every nervous system state, these things happen automatically before our conscious brain has. So it's not like we've consciously chosen to fawn. It's happening. It is just. And we do that because we're trying to bring the overwhelm down. The overwhelm of the situation down. So. Yes. So really adopting this. I can disappoint people and still be safe. Is brilliant. And taking that a step further, I can be disappointed and still be safe. So all of these things. And I can make mistakes and still be safe. These things of like, do you know what? These are really, really crucial elements to begin shifting the story inside. Because this is such a big part of unmasking is trying to shift that inner narrative as to who we are and. And what the world is like. So this is a good way to begin to shift that.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah, absolutely. And it's difficult, isn't it, when you. Especially from my own experiences, I found this almost to the point of. I felt like it was almost unfair in that I was realizing how many of my connections were built on compliance. In that I had certain people in my friendship group but weren't great people. They were very narcissistic, very bitchy, gossipy talk about other people behind each other's backs. And it's very difficult when you recognize a behavior that you've had in your mask that you do not like.

[Ashley Dupuis]

Sure. Oh, God, yes.

[Simon Scott]

And then you see the other people around you that are doing it and you go, this what I've chosen for myself. How do you then get out of that?

[Ashley Dupuis]

Well, you've just hit upon something so important. Our environment and who we choose to spend time with is so Important. It's so important. And one of the dangers of heavily masking is that people like narcissists or sociopathic people, psychopathic people, they are incredibly tuned into people who are very agreeable, people who are going along with things, they can pinpoint somebody who's doing that and they make a beeline for you because they know that, oh, this is the perfect person to hang around with because I can manipulate and I can bend and shape them into exactly what I want. And so before you know it, suddenly you do have one of these moments of like, oh, gosh. Actually when you start to remove the mask and look and see the people that you're hanging around with, it can be very unnerving. So like with all of these sort of things, it's a process of really trying to keep yourself safe. Really trying to look for people who you admire, look for people who really seem to be leading a life that is something that you are drawn to people. Now then again, narcissistic people can be quite charismatic. So that can also be, that can also be tough. But this is, you know, this is trial and error and the more you get to know yourself, the more you'll get to see other people more clearly. So it's a tough one. But yeah, try and surround yourself with really supportive, positive people that behave in a way that is congruent with your values. And I think that's another great place to look is try and find what your core values are in life. That will give you proper boundaries, that will give you a good help. You highlight what's important and find the people that match that.

[Simon Scott]

Oh, gosh, it just sort of making me reflect on it. It makes me think of, you know, when you see films like Heathers and Mean Girls, there's always the popular girl and she's got her two. There's always sidekicks. Yes, always a sidekick. Now thinking about myself as somebody who is alexithymic and was highly masking, I always friends with a mean person.

[Ashley Dupuis]

Right.

[Simon Scott]

So every bully I ever had started out as a friend. And a lot of why I felt like I fell into that is because they were charismatic. They could do a lot of the talking for me and if I was behind them, I wasn't in front of them.

[Ashley Dupuis]

Yes.

[Simon Scott]

And that's sort of a very dangerous, safe space to find yourself. But what has happened with that is I've sought to try and re establish myself and set boundaries and I'm intrigued. Ashley, when you were unmasking, did anybody refer to you as two faced?

[Ashley Dupuis]

Oh, that's interesting. That is interesting because I have had

[Simon Scott]

this a couple of times, and I've not known really how to feel about it.

[Ashley Dupuis]

Sure, sure. Well, you know, usually an accusation is. Is a lot of times. Not every time, obviously, but it can be production. So, you know, a lot of what people see in us is telling me. It tells us who they are. So, you know, this is. We have. We absolutely can feel conflicting ways about things. We have every right to feel certain ways about, you know, differing views depending on the time of day or so. If somebody's trying to say no, you need to, you know, pick a lane and. And you. You can't. You can't ever sort of contradict yourself, well, then that's not really being realistic about the human experience, is it? So I haven't. Not that I'm aware of. Who knows, There could be. There could be quite a few people that. That have said that about me, that I'm not aware of it, but I'm cur. Experiences with that.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah, yeah. Well, sort of a line that I've got in my notes here is when you stop performing, you find out who was connected to you and who was connected to the performance.

[Ashley Dupuis]

Yes.

[Simon Scott]

And one of the things that I have found is that I started to say no to things more to protect my energy, because suddenly when you unmask, you really do recognize how much energy is a currency. That's one of the things that shocked me so much. My energy felt finite, all just like, overnight. And it was really shocking to see how tired and, you know, for things that. That happened and I stopped turning up to a lot of things. I'd stopped turning up to birthdays or people would go, oh, we're all going out for drinks in town and we're gonna be out till 3am let's do it. I'd be like, no, I don't really know if I want to do that because drugs will be involved and that's not what I want to be right now. And you sort of. When your personality change, because it does feel like a personality change. Like when I was a masked person, I was somebody that would drink a lot and do substances. And it was part of, like, my. My personality and the aura that I gave off. And I kind of came across as quite a cool person. Cool people are quite mean because there's somebody that's got to be uncool.

[Ashley Dupuis]

Yes.

[Simon Scott]

And suddenly I stopped caring about being cool. I just wanted to sort of be myself. And a lot of the people that I were hanging around with Were suddenly going, why are you doing that? Nerdy. When did. When did you like that? Why are you wearing that all of a sudden? When did you start listening to that band? Like, who. Who the are you? And that's the. It's not. That's the energy. It's not a. Oh, this is intriguing. What's going on? It almost feels like an attack to a lot of people in that. They go, I thought I knew you.

[Ashley Dupuis]

Yes, yes.

[Simon Scott]

That is. That is the sort of energy and experiences that I've had. And I've had a lot of people cut me off because they were like, oh, he's the boy who cried wolf, or things like that. They go, oh, we're not going to invite Simon because he only ever turns up if it's something that he's interested in. Like, that's the sort of energy that I feel like I was getting a lot when I was unmasking. And I'm now at a sort of a timeline in my own sort of unmasking where I have tools, I have language to sort of explain what and how is going on. And I also have the confidence to sort of rebuttal people when they go, oh, you know, you just saw whatever. And I go, are you sure you want to have this conversation? I went, because I. I know what I'm talking about.

[Ashley Dupuis]

Yeah.

[Simon Scott]

And that suddenly people go, whoa, when did Simon become so passive aggressive? I'm just standing up for myself, you know what I mean? Like, this is the sorts of reactions of. They go, wow, you're putting up boundaries. Who do you think you are?

[Ashley Dupuis]

And this is the thing. And if somebody has a problem with you asserting a boundary, then that is. Well, there we go. Red flag. I don't want you in my life. And yeah, you know, you've hit upon something really important. And what happens so often with masking. I think this is why we are more vulnerable to addiction to substance use disorder, because it can help us feel more comfortable socially. It can help us feel like, okay, this is. Maybe I can feel a bit more easier to be this sort of fun side of myself. And, yeah, you know, it sounds like a lot of fair weather friends there, you know, not really wanting the essence of you, just wanting, you know, a. A performance.

[Simon Scott]

Ashley, I bet there are about eight or nine social circles that are all still friends. And I bet at least once a year that group will go, hey, do you remember Simon? But I have floated in and out of so many social circles and never really been, like, at the core organic center of one. I'VE always either been a year too early or a year too. Like, I've never been right at the moment to form really true friendship groups. But then saying that I have had a couple of friendship groups I've had for a long time, but other people have come in, other people have gone, and I've sort of been a little bit in and out based on sort of where. Where I am. But, you know, one line that sort of comes back to me is, ashley, how much did your phone book change once you started to unmask?

[Ashley Dupuis]

Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Well, yes. I mean, I had already begun to isolate myself a little bit even before I knew I was autistic, because I was having all sorts of. There was a, you know, a sort of a meaning crisis going on for me right before I learned I was autistic. And I had had the revelation that I had been a bit of a doormat for most of my life. And then, of course, I found out I was autistic and I learned about masking. I was like, oh, okay, so this is. This all makes sense. And I started to look back at a lot of the friends that had come and gone in my life. Not the ones that had really had staying power, but the ones who sort of, you know, crash and burn. And they were all very, very manipulative, very really wanting me to just go along with whatever they wanted and were quite bossy, quite controlling. And so. Yeah. And, you know, and I've only. Yeah. It is very, very interesting how people. They're not interested if you're not malleable again, those. It can be difficult. It can be a bit of a. Whoa. But through. Through time. Tincture of time. Great, great saying. You can begin to start to realize that this is for the best, that you want people in your circle that really actually want the best for you. You want to be able to call up your friend and go, God, you know what? Something wonderful happened and have them be really, really happy for you or something awful happened and also be there for you for that. You really. It's tough seeing the light. It really is. It can be very, very tough. Very difficult. But it does mean you are starting a new chapter of you will attract the right people in your life. The more you remove that mask and start to really celebrate this new learning of you. And something you said a moment ago, I think is really, really relevant as well. It is exhausting. When we first. When we first figure out that we've been masking and we start to drop that mask, I think One of the reasons why it's so exhausting is because you cannot help but reexamine your entire life with this new information. And that is exhausting. It's really exhausting.

[Simon Scott]

It's a lot. It is a lot. But I have to ask, Ashley, since you have unmasked, how have your friendships changed the connections you've made?

[Ashley Dupuis]

Oh, you know, it's been so lovely, really feeling. I think you can only connect more deeply with your close friends and loved ones the more you unmask. And again, it's this as above, so below. It's because you're connecting more deeply with yourself. It's allowing you to connect more deeply with those around you. So it really just. Life becomes really deep and meaningful and just. Yeah, yeah. It's really beautiful stuff.

[Simon Scott]

One of the things that I've noticed, I have made such deep, connected friendships recently with mice, and I've created sort of my own circle and none of them really know each other. It's like I have.

[Ashley Dupuis]

I have that, too.

[Simon Scott]

I have deep connections with lots of friends, but I could never imagine them all in the same room. If anything, it'd freak me out a little bit. But one of the things that I've been able to do is because I've really worked on the friendship with myself, with my inner child, and just sort of accommodating for myself. I have become really good at doing that with other people. I've been really good at meeting their inner child where they are accommodating. Jordan and Sylvia came up here and they were like, this is the most comfortable I've ever felt in somebody else's house. And that brought me a lot of pride and joy in how far I've come to be able to make people feel comfortable in my space, let alone feel comfortable within my own.

[Ashley Dupuis]

Yeah.

[Simon Scott]

And I've got a lot of friends at the moment now and with my role with work as well. I have never been somebody that a lot of people have come to for advice, Ashley. And it's happening a lot.

[Ashley Dupuis]

I'm not surprised a lot.

[Simon Scott]

And it's very sort of rewarding to feel like I have now always sort of achieved the things that I was desperate to achieve while I was masked. Now that I'm unmasked, it's like the stabilizers are off.

[Ashley Dupuis]

Yeah.

[Simon Scott]

And it's really helped me. Sort of makes really beautiful, deep connections with people that I really cherish and want to nurture and work on.

[Ashley Dupuis]

How amazing. You have alchemized something so painful and damaging into something so beautiful. Like this is. And you said something actually at the, at the beginning of the, of the, the show. Something to the effect of, you know, now that I've got a little bit of experience on this, I can, I can help others. And this is a wonderful thing for everybody to know. I can't remember where I heard this once, but I was like, yes, that makes so much sense. You only need to be one step ahead of somebody to offer advice or help or insight. You don't need to be an expert in anything to help somebody. Just lived experience and being maybe one step ahead can be so helpful. So everybody out. And do you know what? The more you help others, you're helping yourself. At the same time, you're reminding yourself of the very things that you are sharing with others when you help other people learn about masking and unmasking and, and all of that. I think it's just, it's, it's so

[Simon Scott]

beautiful just to sort of finish this section. But before we go to a break, I had a moment earlier this week actually where I was talking to a really good friend of mine and super intelligent guy and has a great, you know, almost therapist mind, should we say. And he was saying, I'm really struggling to navigate unmasking because all I can see is the medical model. And I had a little bit of a conversation with him where I was like, the demons that you've got, there is no cure. They're not going to go away. You've got to learn to live with them and recognize them and get to the point where you welcome them in when they come.

[Ashley Dupuis]

Yes.

[Simon Scott]

Because you're, you have control over what, what they do and don't do to you.

[Ashley Dupuis]

Yeah.

[Simon Scott]

I says, and that doesn't happen overnight. It's trial and error and trial and error and trial and error. And I was saying to him, I don't get it right. Nobody's perfect. But just realizing that did something better the next time is, is the progress. You don't see it. But as soon as you, you are further down that line and you can look back on all of the experiences that you've had, you go, oh, I've come a long way.

[Ashley Dupuis]

Yes. Yes. It's so crucial. It's so. Yes. We're slow and steady wins the race. And. Yeah. Can you just focus on. Yeah. When you get it wrong or if you end up masking when you didn't want to, that's okay, really. If you start to be. This is where curiosity is just always the. It's always the secret sauce it's always the magic if you apply curiosity to these parts of yourself and these masks and trying to understand that curiosity signals safety to your brain and nervous system. Curiosity does. So that is the magic. And that's where answers really do start to appear. Because when we say rhetorical questions like why does this always happen? You're not actually really asking the question. You're actually condemning yourself. You're shaming yourself. But when you're curious about it, like, I wonder why that happens now that's interesting. What was going on there gives you that. That useful information that you can then take forward as, as you say, yeah, that's.

[Simon Scott]

Finding the why is is the is amazing advice. Absolutely amazing advice. So we'll go to a break, but when we come back, we're going to discuss the middle ground is you can't always be unmasked. So we'll get into that after this break. AI is transforming customer service. It's real and it works. And with fin, we've built the number one AI agent for customer service. We're seeing lots of cases where it's solving up to 90% of real queries for real businesses. This includes the real world complex stuff like issuing a refund or canceling an order. And we also see it when FIN goes up against competitors. It's top of all the performance benchmarks, top of the G2 leaderboard. And if you're not happy, we'll refund you up to a million dollars, which I think says it all. Check it out for yourself at fin.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

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[Simon Scott]

Have you ever felt stuck in patterns that don't serve you, struggled with stress, or wanted to connect more deeply with yourself? Then I have to introduce you to a friend of the podcast, Ashley Bentley of integrated coaching, breathwork and Hypnotherapy. Ashley is a highly experienced clinical hypnotherapist and coach specializing in working with neurodivergent minds. Through a unique blend of integrative coaching, breathwork and hypnotherapy, Ashley helps people rewire subconscious patterns, regulate their nervous systems, step into more empowered versions of themselves. Whether you're dealing with addiction, anxiety, burnout, or struggles with self acceptance, Ashley offers practical and science backed tools tailored just for you. Her unique methods combine neuroscience, storytelling, subconscious transformation to create real, lasting changes. Jordan and I can personally attest to the profound and transformative effects of her sessions, which have been life changing. She does all of these sessions online, meaning she can work with you no matter where you are in the world. If you're ready to break free from old patterns and start living with more clarity, confidence and connection, go to Bit ly ashleynde to book a free consultation or learn more foreign. Welcome back to the neurodivergent Experience. Simon Scott here with Ashley Dubuis. And we have been talking about unmasking and you know, Ashley, we've covered a lot of, not necessarily just the negatives, but the positives of unmasking. You can't always, always be unmasked because unfortunately survival dictates when and you don't do and don't use it. So let's discuss. Once you unmask, it's very hard to put it back on.

[Ashley Dupuis]

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And there are obviously certain situations where we do have to, you know, respect certain societal norms like the office or, you know, certain. Yeah, just being out in public, you know, even though we may want to just fully unmask, it's finding that, as you say, finding that middle ground. And again, that's gonna look different for everyone. Yeah. What, what are some, some moments where, where you feel like masking just really has to sort of kind of stay on.

[Simon Scott]

So in a professional setting, as a producer of podcasts and media in general, I have a lot of people coming to me asking for honest answers and a lot of the time my brain sits there and goes, and you've, you've listened to the podcast, you'll, you've heard me say this many, many times, is, do you want me to tell you what I think, or do you want me to tell you what you want to hear and what are the consequences of each of those responses? Because a lot of the time, I will have somebody ring me, and they'll go, I don't know how to do this thing. Make it better. Okay. Right. How can I make it better for you? I don't know you. How can I make this work? And a lot of the times, everybody's looking for a quick fix. It's like my partner Karis works in. In a makeup shop. The amount of times that people come in and they go, well, what's the best? What's the best foundation? And Caris goes, well, what skin type do you have? What skin tone do you have? What race? Like, there's a million questions that come from that, but people don't want to hear that shit.

[Ashley Dupuis]

No, no.

[Simon Scott]

They want you to tell them what's good for them.

[Ashley Dupuis]

Yeah, yeah. It's like we're all just doing this. This sort of dance, this performance, you

[Simon Scott]

know, and anytime you tell them what they don't want to hear, you're not very good at your job. You're unprofessional.

[Ashley Dupuis]

Yes, yes. So this is where, of course, you know, unmasking, we're looking at being more truthful. But, yes, there are certain moments where, yeah, people clearly don't want the truth. And it's like, well, how do I stay truthful and authentic to who I am without, you know, completely offending everybody that I. That I encounter? And it's. You know, I wish. I wish I had a pamphlet or a flowchart to help people along, but it's just going to. It is a bit of a minefield. And, you know, and I do encounter this all the time because I know how important it is for me to be truthful. This was a big. This was a big eye opener for me because I had been in a lot of relationships with compulsive liars, so the truth is so important to me. But then as I learned about masking, it's like, oh, actually, well, I've been masking a lot, so that's not very truthful. And so I started to get the ick with myself. I was like, here I am just, like, banging the drug.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah.

[Ashley Dupuis]

Yeah, it was. It was a lot to sort of take on. But again, it's this beautiful. You know what this is. This is all part of this beautiful human neurodivergent experience that that we're. That we're having. So I think the more grounded and steady you are in any given moment, the more you'll be able to see you'll have a better perspective of what's going on in that moment and what would be appropriate and respectful. I think that's. I think that's the key. If we can try and be as honest but as respectful and appropriate to the situation as possible. Again, that's just such a. You know, that's just such a mouthful of like, oh, that's helpful, actually.

[Simon Scott]

Oh, yeah. Yes. So, yeah, well, I'll do it now. Why did I never think of that before? Yeah, no, it is. It's extremely difficult, especially in, like, a lot of. And again, I find it's the environment that disables me.

[Ashley Dupuis]

Yeah.

[Simon Scott]

In that when I'm worked in offices, I have seen people that have been really manipulative and shitty. Every time I've called it out, it has not gone well.

[Ashley Dupuis]

Yes, yes.

[Simon Scott]

It has never, ever, ever gone well. And a lot of my goal now is not necessarily to be masked, but to feel in control and safe.

[Ashley Dupuis]

Yes. Yes. And that is just it. And, you know, I'm thinking back to my own office life. Just what a disaster it was.

[Simon Scott]

Why did we do it to ourselves, Ashley? I look back on it now and I work from home and I was like, I'm glad that I did it so that I know I don't like it, but. Oh, don't put me back, please.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

It's so wild.

[Ashley Dupuis]

Cause I'm just realizing I had this weird mixture of heavily masking, but also at the same time, oversharing, which doesn't seem to. It doesn't. Like, how can you have both? But I definitely had both. I mean, I would. I would. You know, and it's so funny. I just had a dream about this the other night. You know, I would sort of tell the truth in a situation where everybody else was like, no, don't. You don't tell the truth about that. I'm like, well, but they asked a question and I knew the answer. Oh, but no, we have to.

[Simon Scott]

Oh, God. This is the neurotypical, like, bullshit tennis they do. They go, morning, Ashley. Morning, Simon. How was your weekend? Well, actually, it was really shit. And they go, oh, well, Ashley's being a buzz kill on a Monday morning. Do you know what I mean? Like, I have experienced that so, so much where I'm like, why do people ask you questions that they don't care about the answer? It amazes me. And I've had it where people have said to me, oh, Simon's really off. Simon isn't a team player. And it's like, I don't care what the weather is. I can see it's outside. Yeah, we don't need to talk about it. And people are like, well, he doesn't engage in social interactions or the whole.

[Ashley Dupuis]

Being a snitch without realizing it.

[Simon Scott]

Oh, no. I've been a grass by accident before.

[Ashley Dupuis]

Oh, my God. I mean, I can remember a scenario where I was working in a building that was heavily sort of, like, secured with sort of, like, security codes, all this to get inside. And somebody came in to. It was all open plan working. Somebody came in and said, oh, gosh, I think I let somebody in that maybe I shouldn't have. And then that person went into the break room. And then the director came out and said, oh, who let so and so in? And I just went, oh, it was so and so. I just. I just thought.

[Simon Scott]

I got anxiety just thinking about that.

[Ashley Dupuis]

Oh, I know, I know. And. But because everybody went quiet before I said something, everybody went quiet, and I was like, well, everybody heard him say that he let him in. But now that she. And so I thought, well, maybe. So I thought, well, I'll. I'll tell her. Just completely missed the fact that everybody else in the room knew to stay quiet. And I didn't. And it totally. I didn't want to. Yeah.

[Simon Scott]

I have had many experiences, Ashley, where everybody is giving their opinion on something, and then I give mine, and somebody goes, christ, Simon, read the room. Sorry. What? I thought, what?

[Narrator/Advertiser]

What?

[Simon Scott]

How come I do it? It's weird. Like, I don't. I don't get that. That was the bit that always used to really stand out for me is I felt like I was trying to behave like other people were. And then I would sort of not necessarily copy and paste opinions or anything, but I'd sort of, you know, follow the same sort of jargon and language. And people would be like. It's like they knew.

[Ashley Dupuis]

They knew I was.

[Simon Scott]

It's like they knew I was faking it. And then as soon as you're authentic, they're like, whoa, it's. Wind that back a bit. Yeah, it's a hard. It's a hard balance. And I don't feel like I get it right very often. But what I am now is I'm in a. In a working environment where a lot of people are neurodivergent and sometimes I see people overshare and sort of say things that in a In a normal setting, not that it would like HR would get involved, but socially, you just go, oh, you wince a little, you know, and it's really nice to be in those sorts of environments. You just go, oh, nobody cares. Because no one knows. It doesn't. It has no meaning. It's just. It just is. Yeah, it's like. Yeah, I always found the point scoring odd because, like, no one ever gives you praise about things that you do well. They only ever call you out on the things that you do wrong. But how dare you point out the things that other people do wrong.

[Ashley Dupuis]

Yes.

[Simon Scott]

Even if it's your job to do that.

[Ashley Dupuis]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is. It is a real. It can be a real minefield out there. Knowing, Knowing. Knowing what to share, what not to share, knowing which mask to put on, which to leave on, which to take off. This is. I think it's. And again, you know, going back to what I said at the beginning of the episode, you know, we. We want. Our beautiful, neurodivergent brains crave understanding. We want an answer. And this is. This is really just going to be one of those things that you will get better and better at. The more you go easy on yourself, the more you have a sense of humor about yourself and. Yeah. And the more you just sort of stay curious.

[Simon Scott]

Well, I think one of the things that's really helped me sort of navigate by mask in sort of just professional environments and occasionally in social environments as well, is it's a lot easier to be authentic if you're regulated.

[Ashley Dupuis]

Yes, yes.

[Simon Scott]

Because if you're unregulated, it's really hard to mask, especially once the unmasking process happens. Putting it on takes energy. It's like running two tabs on one, you know, it's hard. So if you're really working on being regulated, I have actually found it's a lot easier to. To navigate these spaces while also being unmasked, because I've not got a lot of nervous energy. That's, you know. That makes sense.

[Ashley Dupuis]

Yes, absolutely. I mean, it's why nervous system regulation is at the heart of so much of what I do, because it will completely change any experience you're having. The more regulated you are, the more grounded and present. You'll be operating from the part of your brain that you want to be operating from. And so, yeah, that is just. It's very, very good advice. And just realize also, you know, in social situations, so often social anxiety creeps in because we're so worried about how other people are reacting to us. And so if we can start to pay attention, just be genuinely curious about the other person, not. Not their reaction, but what they're saying and learning about them, and get less out of how are they interpreting me? And more about, I want to get to know them. When you shift that focus, it takes it. And again, it's. It's easier said than done a lot of times, but it is a skill that you can get better at really beginning to focus on genuinely being interested in learning about what other people are saying. And, yeah, you may not always get the right reaction, but again, remember, people's reaction says everything about them, very little about us.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah, that's so true. So, so true. And it's just sort of made me think about a lot of the times where I think a lot of people in it, not just neurodivergent people. I think most people in general are looking for validation.

[Ashley Dupuis]

Yeah.

[Simon Scott]

So, like when they're in a conversation with somebody and they go, oh, we all feel like that, don't we? The anxiety comes from the person that goes, no, I actually don't. And the conflict that sort of comes from that.

[Ashley Dupuis]

Yeah.

[Simon Scott]

And there have been so many times in social situations now, after I've gone through the unmasking process, you can see other people's.

[Ashley Dupuis]

Yes.

[Simon Scott]

You know. Yeah, it's like there have been many times where I have been in professional settings, social settings, just meeting acquaintances, where now that I have spent so much time reflecting on my own anxieties and what triggers them and regulation I now see in other people. And a lot of the time it's not necessarily about my mask, it's navigating theirs.

[Ashley Dupuis]

It can be uncomfortable, can't it, when you see somebody that is heavily masking? Because I think, you know, we have a deep empathy for what they're. For what they're experiencing. And we almost want to just. It almost causes us to want to fawn, to say, you know, you're safe, you can let that mask down. But again. But you also don't want to call somebody out and say you're masking, because that would. So it is. Yes, yes. The more we get to know masking in this way. Yes. You will start to really, really see it and see it in other people. And, you know, there are. Again, there will be a time and a place for a healthy mask to sort of help you along in a moment or two. But, yeah, I think the goal is to really explore our authentic selves and what that is, and that's a beautiful journey to be on.

[Simon Scott]

So before we wrap up the episode. Ashlyn, I'm so grateful for today. I think. I think this has been a wonderful episode. If somebody is listening to this now, that may be you, wherever you are. And you have heard this conversation right to the end. Thanks you for being with us. But you are questioning whether you are unmasking. Ashley. What advice would you give somebody that goes, have I lived with a mask my whole life? Where do I go from here?

[Ashley Dupuis]

Oh, that's such a good question. That is such a good question. I think go easy on yourself and recognize a. You will likely go on a very exhausting mental journey of reexamining your life to find. To figure out when you were masking, when you weren't. I find the more people I speak to in my own experience, it's like you don't even have to endeavor to go on that journey. It just starts to happen. You just. Because we do have this deep desire to learn and understand and know and figure things out, and we also have this deep desire for justice. This is unfair. I can't believe. So there will be a complex web of emotions that you will be dealing with. All emotions are valid. And so it's important that we don't try and push things away. No, I don't want to feel it. Allow yourself to feel some complex feelings and know that those things will begin to re. Pattern. Reorganize within you. And I'm a big fan of. Do a lot of. Of research. You know, thankfully, we live in an age where there is a lot of information online where we can begin to learn how to unmask, because there isn't just one way. There are so many different ways. I think diving deep into your creativity and in a way that is not to. You know, I'm not saying you need to become an artist or sell your art or anything like that. Just, yeah, do it for you. Start to. This is how you start to unpack and unpick your emotions. You know, move and sway to music. This is how we used to process our emotions before we ever had spoken language. Start to really just explore who you are. Know that the unmasking process will take years, as I said, you know, I'm seven years into my journey of unmasking, and I'm still. Still learning new ways to unmask and still catching myself doing certain things that are heavily tied to masking. So just know that we're all in this journey together, and the more you help other people in their unmasking process, the more you'll help yourself the more you'll deeply connect. You'll find your tribe, all of these sort of things. I hope that's helpful. I realize it's a bit all over the place.

[Simon Scott]

Absolutely.

[Ashley Dupuis]

But I am also writing. I'm writing a book. I'm coming up with some courses about all of this. So I'm really looking forward to sharing some of that with you all once I have a bit more of that to share.

[Simon Scott]

Yeah, no, that's all very, very exciting and I've thoroughly enjoyed this episode today. Ashley, I always enjoy when you're on the show and if you love this episode, please go and listen to Mindful Mondays with Ashley. Ashley Dupuis, start your week with purpose and presence that's in our feed every single Monday. I love the episodes. I find them really helpful to sort of really kickstart my week or sort of just to reground myself after a weekend. They're so helpful. It's why. It's why we help make them so. Ashley, thank you so much. You're going to be with me tomorrow for our hot topic where the news is the news. How the hell do we navigate a world where the news is evil and dark and there might be a Death Star coming? Who knows? Who knows if it can happen? It probably is. Or it already will be. Tinfoil hats for Fridays, everybody. We'll be back tomorrow, but this has been your Thursday episode of the neurodivergent Experience. Ashley, again, thank you so much for being here.

[Ashley Dupuis]

Oh, thank you for having me, Simon.

[Simon Scott]

No, it's always a pleasure. And Jordan will be back with us next week. But until then, have a wonderful week otherwise and we'll see you in our feed tomorrow. Thanks for joining. Tuning in to the neurodivergent Experience. We hope today's episode sparks something for you, whether it's a new idea, a bit of validation, or just a moment of connection. Remember, new episodes are every week, so be sure to join us for the next one for more conversations and insights into the neurodivergent Experience. If you've enjoyed this podcast, help us grow. You can do that by rating and reviewing this show. Your support makes a huge difference in helping us reach more people who could benefit from these conversations. You can connect with us on social media, find us on Instagram, Facebook, Tik tok. Just search for the neurodivergent Experience. Thank you again for listening and until next time, take care of yourself. You're not alone in this journey. Foreign.

[Ashley Dupuis]

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[Simon Scott]

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[Ashley Dupuis]

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[Simon Scott]

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[Simon Scott]

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[Ashley Dupuis]

Hi, I'm Cara Berry, host of Everyone's Business But Mine. Think of me as your new friend and fellow busybody as I talk about everything under the pop culture sun, from the best way to detect a celebrity breakup or pregnancy to recapping your favorite reality TV shows from the Housewives cinematic universe. Welcome to Platteville, Kardashians, and so much more. So check out Everyone's Business But Mine. Airing multiple times a week everywhere you listen to podcasts,

[Simon Scott]

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