The New Yorker: Fiction – Bryan Washington Reads Yiyun Li

Episode Date: January 1, 2026
Host: Deborah Treisman (New Yorker fiction editor)
Guest: Bryan Washington (author of "Family Meal" and "Palaver")

Episode Overview

Deborah Treisman welcomes Bryan Washington, acclaimed author and National Book Award finalist, to read and discuss Yiyun Li’s story “A Small Flame” (originally published in The New Yorker, 2017). This episode explores the intricate emotional and narrative landscape of Li’s story, reflecting on themes of structure, narrative identity, unattainability, and the elusive nature of personal roots. Washington brings a writer's keen eye to Li's craftsmanship and the story’s deeply layered character portrait.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Why Yiyun Li and "A Small Flame"

[01:35–05:20]

• Washington’s introduction to Li’s work:
  He first encountered her stories in college, noting, "there was an entire section dedicated to the New Yorker that was separated a little bit innocuously by author. So I was in a somewhat unique position in that I immediately had access to much of the rest of her work."
• Structural admiration:
  He praises Li's almost obsessive attention to narrative structure, pacing, and character revelation:
  • "To know [from] the very first graphs that [Li] is as least concerned with the pace of one line of dialogue in proximity to the next... There are not so many people in the English language right now who are able to do both." (Washington, [04:04])
• Why "A Small Flame"?
  • The story’s structure and clarity made instant sense to him, even though its 2017 publication was “contentious”:
    • "There was not a moment of ambiguity in regards to the structural choices... Every decision that is made is just so fine tuned that I can just exist in the story whilst being privy to the thoughtfulness that's required in order to craft it at the level that it exists." (Washington, [04:17])

Story Summary & Thematic Elements

[05:36–40:36]

• Read aloud in full (not summarized here due to length).
  • Major themes include longing, alienation, personal vs. inherited identity, and the ache of unattainable connection, all orbiting around Bella—a Chinese-American woman adrift between geographies, relationships, and internalized stories of herself.

Deep-Dive Discussion

Opening Scene and Characterization

[41:22–44:00]

• The rose-selling girl as narrative microcosm:
  • Washington calls it a “masterful” opener:
    • "We see Bella as someone who exists in one way in English... We see Bella's frustration in and with narrative in a lot of ways... [the girl’s] rejection of what I believe Bella thinks that she's supposed to be doing or how she's supposed to react... really elucidates the struggle and the turn that we are privy to from Bella..." (Washington, [43:16])

Parallel Timelines and Bella’s Character Formation

[44:00–47:45]

• Sophisticated Time-Splitting:
  • Li presents Bella in the present, returning to China post-divorce, as well as glimpses of her privileged yet emotionally sterile childhood and her fixation on role models.
  • "We get this sort of present tense timeline... and these prior timelines where we see her upbringing with her adoptive family... we began to like, have a sense... of who Bella may be." (Washington, [44:00])
• Ms. Chu as Catalyst:
  • "The appearance of Ms. Chu" marks the moment the reader starts understanding Bella’s emotional makeup.

Bella’s Roots, Longing, and Unattainable Models

[50:06–53:52]

• Genealogy & Rootlessness:
  • Bella’s lack of roots is contrasted with Adrian’s elaborate family search.
  • Treisman: “You can feel her grasping around for some kind of root. And what she comes up with is Ms. Chu. That’s the root holding her to China.” ([53:52])
• Obsession with Ms. Chu:
  • Ms. Chu’s emotional inaccessibility becomes the focus of Bella’s longing:
    • "There's nothing that Bella can provide structurally in order to access this woman. And I think that that is what makes her just inherently attractive to her—to have an object of desire..." (Washington, [50:48])
  • The possibility of constructing narratives around unattainable objects/people is “a kind of love story too... regrettable one, perhaps, but there is a kind of love in the sort of doomedness of unattainability.” ([76:18])

Names and Narrative Identity

[62:23–65:22]

• Names as markers of reinvention and fantasy:
  • Bella’s American name marks her reinvention, while Ms. Chu’s new name signifies a break from the past.
  • “There is a fairy tale like, quality to unattainability. There is, I think, even in the idea of Bella, like, there’s a narrative there... with nothing concrete to attach them to. It becomes quite a sad situation.” (Washington, [62:40], [66:26])
• William Trevor connection:
  • Treisman notes "Bella" alludes to a character in William Trevor’s “The Piano Tuner’s Wives,” further blurring lines between damage and toxic self-perception.

Narrative Sadness, Unattainability, and the Search for Connection

[68:11–76:18]

• Bella as perpetual outsider:
  • Her status as unattainable, untethered, is underscored by her inability to connect even retrospectively to Ms. Chu or the “deaf mute” girl she replaced.
  • "Timing had made them the unattainable in her life and the unattainable which she could neither damage nor destroy lived on as wounds." (Treisman reading Li, [68:11])
• Counter-narratives and narrative stasis:
  • Even Pei Pei’s fairy-tale marriage (unbroken, persistent) becomes an irritant for Bella, who clings to stories of absence: “There’s comfort in knowing that I don’t know the answer to who this person is... But once we see that the vase is not a vase, it’s a person with their own autonomy, with their own narrative, that’s not as attractive.” (Washington, [74:02])
• Unending isolation:
  • The motif of the Little Match Girl (wounds that burn but never illuminate) persists—Bella stuck in a narrative that both defines and imprisons her.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Yiyun Li’s Craftsmanship

• “There are not so many people in the English language right now who are able to do both [complex structure and emotional immediacy]."
  — Bryan Washington ([04:04])

On the Power of Narrative Longing

• "You know, I think that any... moment that this narrative that BELLA created for Ms. Chu... was solidified with unattainability, was solidified with ignorance... The moment that she could see concretely that, oh, Ms. Chu is not a narrative. She's a person... that attractiveness is void."
  — Bryan Washington ([59:11])

On Bella’s Place in Her World

• “Peter and Adrian, they have each other. Her parents had each other. Her husband's had her for a little while... Even Pei Pei has her own narrative. And Bella's narrative is continually caught between this idea of the Little Match Girl and this idea of Ms. Chu.”
  — Bryan Washington ([66:24])

On the Absence of Roots

• "She has no narrative. She has no genealogy, which makes her, in her words, a weed whose existence is of consequence to no one but weed killers."
  — Deborah Treisman ([53:52])

On Choosing Bella’s Name

• "There is a fairy tale like, quality to unattainability. There is, I think, even in the idea of Bella, like, there's a narrative there, you know, for good or for ill."
  — Bryan Washington ([62:40])

On the Nature of Sadness

• "What might have been is horrifying."
  — Bryan Washington ([69:19])

Important Segments & Timestamps

• Introduction, guest’s relationship to Yiyun Li:
  [00:51–02:42]
• Discussion of structure and Li’s style:
  [02:42–05:20]
• Full reading of "A Small Flame":
  [05:36–40:36] (story text, not summarized)
• Analysis of opening, the rose girl, and narrative purpose:
  [41:22–44:00]
• Genealogy, unattainability, and Ms. Chu:
  [53:52–57:24]
• Bella’s fantasy, names, and identity:
  [62:23–65:22]
• Loneliness, counter-narratives, and closing thoughts:
  [68:11–76:39]

Tone

Reflective, nuanced, literary—both host and guest speak with analytic clarity and emotional depth, mirroring the complexity and subtlety of Li’s fiction. The conversation blends close reading with personal and narrative insight, maintaining the lyrical, mournful undercurrent of Li’s story.