The New Yorker: Fiction – Miriam Toews Reads Raymond Carver

Episode Date: December 1, 2025
Host: Deborah Treisman
Guest: Miriam Toews

Episode Overview

In this episode, acclaimed novelist Miriam Toews joins The New Yorker’s fiction editor Deborah Treisman to read and discuss Raymond Carver’s short story “Elephant,” which was first published in The New Yorker in June 1986. The episode delves into Carver’s late style, his themes of obligation, family, and personal transformation, and explores the ‘epiphany’ at the heart of “Elephant.” Toews shares her deep connection to Carver as both a reader and a writer, drawing parallels between her own life and his work.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Miriam Toews' Relationship with Raymond Carver (01:15–02:21)

• Personal Connection to Carver’s Work:
  Toews explains that as a young, broke parent dreaming of becoming a writer, Carver’s stories resonated with her deeply. She notes similarities in their lives, particularly around themes of struggling financially and familial responsibility.
• Carver’s Evolving Style:
  Toews prefers Carver’s later, looser style, especially as demonstrated in “Elephant,” finding “more room for feeling, a broader, bigger lens” in the story (02:39).

The Reading of “Elephant” (03:43–39:00)

• Plot Summary:
  • The narrator, a working-class man, is constantly asked for money by his brother, mother, ex-wife, daughter, and son.
  • Each family member presents their plea with emotional appeals and manipulation.
  • Despite his own financial strain, the narrator keeps helping until the burden nearly overwhelms him.
  • He dreams of being carried safely on his father’s shoulders—an “elephant”—and confronts his own limitations, guilt, and yearning for escape.
  • The story concludes with an ephemeral moment of release, as he rides in a speeding, unpaid car with a friend, embodying a fleeting sense of freedom.

Key Insights from the Discussion

The Structure and Movement of the Story (39:33–41:38)

• Difficult to Summarize:
  Toews remarks on how “Elephant” is less about plot and more about mood and an “epiphany or … moment of grace” (40:00).
• Internal Transformation:
  Treisman points out that the story’s movement is internal: “the change is just internal. There’s no change in the situation or the plot” (41:18).

Humor & Emotional Manipulation (41:04–44:18)

• Carver’s Humor:
  Both find humor in the relentless (and sometimes absurd) requests made of the narrator, e.g., the son bemoaning his allergy to cocaine that prevents his drug-dealing career (41:04).
• Manipulation vs. Reality:
  Toews observes that, despite comic exaggeration and emotional manipulation, the relatives’ problems are “pretty common … this sounds, you know, this is life” (42:52).

Obligations, Freedom, and Wisdom (44:19–48:30)

• Balancing Responsibility and Yearning:
  The conversation delves into the tension between the narrator’s obligations and his fleeting desire for freedom—embodied by his repeated threats to escape to Australia (47:31).
• Codependency and Purpose:
  Treisman suggests the narrator is “the dealer who keeps supplying them,” deriving a sense of usefulness or purpose from their dependence (47:31).

Masculinity and Transformation (45:39–46:45)

• Rethinking “Thinking Like a Man”:
  • The narrator reflects, “Once, long ago, when I used to think like a man about these things, I threatened to kill that guy,” indicating a shift away from violence toward responsibility (45:39).
  • Toews interprets this as Carver’s subtle exploration of masculinity and personal evolution (46:16).

The Role of Dreams (50:36–53:29)

• Generational Support and Guilt:
  • The two dreams mark a turning point—one of being supported by his father (the elephant), the other replaying guilt and violence.
  • Toews: “He just … reminds himself that he now is in a place … he’s the elephant... That’s just the cycle” (51:41).
  • The dreams reinforce both the burden and dignity of supporting others.

Release and Acceptance (54:45–56:01)

• Fleeting Joy Amid Responsibility:
  The final car ride symbolizes momentary escape, but the reality of obligations lingers. “Everything has to be paid for, in a sense,” says Toews. Treisman counters that perhaps “nothing is paid for. The best things in life aren’t paid for. You’re living on credit, living on borrowed time” (56:01).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Carver’s Late Style:
  “The air, the space between the sentences … there’s just a kind of room for feeling, a kind of … broader, bigger lens.”
  —Miriam Toews (02:39)
• On the Story’s Humor:
  “Yeah, bummer. But now it turns out I’m allergic to cocaine, so I can’t even test the products that I’m trying to sell.”
  —Miriam Toews (41:04)
• On Internal Change:
  “What’s interesting here is that the change is just internal. There’s no change in the situation or the plot.”
  —Deborah Treisman (41:18)
• On Obligations and Identity:
  “If we don’t have obligations, if we don’t have needs, then what does that mean? We’re alone? Is that freedom? Then we’re alone in Australia.”
  —Miriam Toews (48:02)
• On Letting Go:
  “His father was right. It’s okay, you can let go. You’ll be fine.”
  —Miriam Toews (57:48)
• On Living on Borrowed Time:
  “Maybe nothing is paid for. The best things in life aren’t paid for. You’re living on credit, you’re living on borrowed time.”
  —Deborah Treisman (56:01)
• On the Cycle of Support:
  “He’s the elephant. And that’s just the natural kind of cycle of things. And he can be that person and he should be that person.”
  —Miriam Toews (51:41)

Noteworthy Timestamps

• Relationship with Carver’s Meaning – 01:14–02:21
• Affection for Carver’s Later Style – 02:36–02:53
• Example of Humor in “Elephant” – 41:04
• Turning Point (the Dreams) – 50:36–53:29
• Arrival at Acceptance/Freedom – 55:10–57:57
• Discussion of Carver’s Life and Autobiography – 60:40–61:47

Language & Tone

The episode is intimate, reflective, and laced with humor—much like Carver’s own prose. Both Toews and Treisman admire the wisdom, melancholy, and wryness in Carver’s work, and their conversation is warm, insightful, and marked by a sense of literary camaraderie.

Closing Thoughts

The discussion reveals Carver’s “Elephant” as both a depiction of ordinary burdens and an exploration of fleeting liberation. Miriam Toews brings personal resonance and keen literary sensitivity to the conversation, illuminating Carver’s ability to distill the comedy, resignation, and fleeting joys of everyday life. The story’s lesson, as interpreted by both guest and host, is not about escape, but about grace found within acceptance of responsibility.