The New Yorker: Fiction — Victor Lodato Reads Denis Johnson

Host: Deborah Treisman
Guest: Victor Lodato
Episode Date: September 1, 2025
Story Read: “The Largesse of the Sea Maiden” by Denis Johnson

Episode Overview

This episode centers on Denis Johnson’s profound and enigmatic story "The Largesse of the Sea Maiden" (originally published in The New Yorker in 2014), as read by acclaimed author and playwright Victor Lodato. The conversation between Lodato and host/editor Deborah Treisman explores the story’s meditative structure, its blend of mundane and mystical, and Johnson’s enduring questions about suffering, connection, and the mysteries of ordinary life. The pair dives into the story’s themes, linking them to Johnson’s broader body of work, especially Jesus’ Son, and considers his unique literary voice, spiritual preoccupations, and tragicomic view of human experience.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Spell of Denis Johnson’s Voice

• Lodato’s Connection to the Work (03:41):
  Victor Lodato expresses his deep admiration for Johnson’s “sui generis” style, which compels him to read Johnson’s stories aloud:

  “Whenever I read Denis Johnson, I always feel this urge to speak the words out loud... the work sort of possesses me and puts me under a spell.” — Victor Lodato [03:18]

• Verbal Quality & Playwriting:
  Treisman notes there’s a spoken quality to Johnson’s prose—perhaps connected to his work as a playwright, like Lodato.

Thematic Through-Lines: Suffering and Spiritual Longing

• Connecting Threads Across Johnson’s Oeuvre (04:29):
  Lodato identifies the “spiritual aspects of suffering” as a key preoccupation, finding a kinship between the characters of Jesus’ Son and “Largesse…”:

  “He seems to be interested in the spiritual aspects of suffering…there’s this balance in all his work between the mundanity...and this vision of ecstasy and dream and myth that’s just hovering at the edge of life.” — Victor Lodato [04:29]

• The Pull Between Mundanity and Ecstasy:
  The narrator in “Largesse…” leads a life of routine but yearns for transformative, numinous moments.

Story Structure & Emotional Cohesion

• Fragmented Form, Connected Feelings (56:54):
  Although “Largesse…” is interwoven from seemingly disparate vignettes, Lodato argues that they’re fundamentally connected by a core emotional question:

  “All of them have this feeling of estrangement and they’re...considering the unknowability of other people...that seems to be the question at the heart of this story.” — Victor Lodato [57:12]

• Theme of Estrangement & Empathy:
  Each section meditates on how individuals strive to connect, often failing or falling short, echoing the story’s motif of partial understanding.

Humor, Absurdity, and Gallows Laughter

• The Metaphysical Standup Routine (57:57):
  Despite its heartbreaking moments, Johnson’s piece is threaded with “gallows humor”:

  “It really is one of those pieces—when they write that silly thing—'made me laugh, made me cry,' well, this piece does that for sure.” — Victor Lodato [58:00]

• Memorable Absurd Moments:

  • The narrator confuses which ex-wife is dying on the phone [58:23]:

    “It’s so crazy…I didn’t know what to feel. I wanted to, like, say, life is the saddest thing ever and the most absurd thing.” — Victor Lodato [58:32]

  • The “show us your stump” party episode is recognized as “the definition of gallows humor” [58:52].

The Story’s Title and Mythic Subtext

• On Irony and Generosity (59:08):
  The phrase “largesse of the sea maiden” is dissected for both its poetic beauty and irony—the “gifts” of grace or ecstasy in life are fleeting and rare:

  “Is that largesse because the Sea Maiden gives us so little? But…maybe even though they’re so rare, they make everything, all the terrible things…worthwhile.” — Victor Lodato [60:15]

• Fairy Tale Origins (60:15):
  Treisman ties the title to an actual fairy tale where the Sea Maiden’s gift comes at a price, paralleling how moments of beauty or connection in life are costly or fragile.

Encounters with Mystery and Barriers to Meaning

• Obscured Messages and Mythical Hope (61:49):
  Objects (the cookbook, cryptic notes, mystical rocks) and brief transcendent experiences represent the narrator’s search for meaning, echoing the mythic longing that permeates the story:

  “The idea of fable or these folktales offer the possibility that there could be transformation or grace where, you know, everything will make sense, reveal itself… a magic sword that'll cut through everyday life and… the barriers between people.” — Victor Lodato [62:36]

• Disappointment and Hope (63:33):
  Even when mundane reality (“sky and celery” turns out to be “ski and cyclery”) undercuts hope, the narrator remains a hopeful searcher.

Connections to John Cheever & Walt Whitman

• Cheever Parallels (65:49):
  The narrative’s focus on “late middle-aged” spiritual crisis and suburban wandering recalls John Cheever’s characters.

• Whitman’s “Eagerness to Love” (66:15):
  Walt Whitman’s universal sympathy and generosity of spirit are cited as a key influence on both Johnson and the character “Whitman.”

  “Like Whitman, he really is invested and loves the project of humanity, even though…most of it has not been that satisfying.” — Victor Lodato [67:08]

Death, Mortality, and Urgency

• Death’s Shadow (71:41):
  Multiple deaths—of ex-wives, friends, acquaintances—haunt the narrator and propel his reflections.

  “He obviously feels the shadow of death coming closer. And he seems, like, really hungry to understand his life…before it slips away.” — Victor Lodato [71:41]

• Art’s Redemptive Power (74:01):
  Despite suffering and uncertainty, making and sharing stories becomes a kind of salvation.

The Balance of Lyricism and Plain-speak

• Combining Bleakness and Beauty (68:12):
  The story’s lyric flights (the “ribbon of life”) would verge on sentimentality if not so grounded in hard details; its contradictions feel authentic and necessary.

• On Editing Johnson (84:41 - 87:31):
  Treisman shares insights into editing Denis Johnson, including his resistance to revision (“stet everything”) and his belief in the ineffable, “untranslatable” quality of his writing.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Authority and Uniqueness:

  “With Denis Johnson… whenever I read his work, it’s like no one else could have written this but Denis Johnson. He’s so completely sui generis.” — Victor Lodato [03:36]

• On Suffering and Spiritual Longing:

  “He seems to be interested in the spiritual aspects of suffering…” — Victor Lodato [04:29]

• On Fragmentation and Cohesion:

  “At first the various parts did seem disparate…but as I read on…the story started to feel more cohesive…thematically, maybe even more emotionally…” — Victor Lodato [57:12]

• On Absurdity:

  "It’s so crazy. I had to stop reading there…life is the saddest thing ever and the most absurd thing.” — Victor Lodato [58:32]

• On Myth and Disappointment:

  “…those moments of ecstasy, of connection…maybe even though they’re so rare, they make everything, all the terrible things that have happened worthwhile. So it is a sort of generosity.” — Victor Lodato [60:15]

• From Treisman, on the story’s universal reach:

  “There’s also something kind of universal in the experience of reading it…he repeatedly addresses a ‘you’…there’s no way not to be sort of inside the story, even as the reader.” — Deborah Treisman [90:01]

Important Segments & Timestamps

[03:27] – Initial discussion of Johnson’s voice and connection to oral storytelling
[04:29] – Lodato on spiritual longing and suffering
[56:54] – On the connectedness of the story’s disparate sections
[57:57] – Gallows humor and emotional range
[59:08] – Discussion of the title's irony and mythic resonance
[66:15] – Walt Whitman’s influence
[71:41] – Mortality and the urgency of meaning
[78:57] – Analysis of the rabbit-and-bear ad and its symbolic ambiguity
[84:41] – Treisman shares Denis Johnson’s email about editing and process
[90:01] – On the story’s universal, inviting “you”

Conclusion and Reflections

This episode serves as a deep and generous conversation about not only “The Largesse of the Sea Maiden,” but also Denis Johnson’s spiritual and artistic legacy. Lodato and Treisman consider the story from all angles—its voice, its humor, its sadness, its mythic gestures, and its place in American fiction. As they reflect on death, the search for connection, and the fleeting “ribbon flashes” of mystery in ordinary life, they highlight Johnson’s gift for making the reader both confided in and unsettled. The discussion itself feels like an act of shared wonder, an extension of the story’s own largesse.

End of summary.