The New Yorker Radio Hour — "Ai Weiwei, and Doing Business with China"

Date: June 23, 2017
Host: Evan Osnos (sitting in for David Remnick)

Episode Overview

This episode explores the multifaceted and shifting relationship between the United States and China. Through stories and interviews, Evan Osnos and the New Yorker team examine the interplay of politics, art, economics, and culture. The episode features conversations with Chinese journalist Yuan Anzhang, U.S. Congressman Rick Larson, world-renowned artist and dissident Ai Weiwei, and profiles on China’s growing soft power and gender roles through science fiction and feminist activism.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. How China Views Trump-Era America

• Interview with Yuan Anzhang (Reporter, Caixin Media) [02:03–09:09]
  • The Chinese public is closely following American political drama, often comparing Congressional hearings and political developments to popular shows like "House of Cards" ([02:19]).
  • Initially, Trump’s harsh campaign rhetoric toward China, especially on trade and currency, created unease in China, but once in office, he shifted to a more pragmatic, transactional stance, focusing on cooperation (particularly over North Korea), and stepping back from direct confrontation ([03:11]–[04:20]).
    • Quote: “He said a lot of things ... but he doesn't follow through on those ... and we have important issues that we could work on, for example, North Korea.” — Yuan Anzhang [03:11]
  • The Mar-a-Lago summit and images of Ivanka Trump’s children speaking Chinese charmed many Chinese observers. Both Xi Jinping and Trump are viewed as transactional leaders, able to “do deals” ([04:46]–[05:39]).
  • Trump’s withdrawal from the Paris Agreement created an opening for China to step up as a global leader, with Premier Li Keqiang and President Xi visibly promoting globalization on the world stage ([05:42]–[07:12]).
    • Quote: “We need a leader like that in this era.” — American executive referring to Xi Jinping at Davos [06:41]
  • China aspires to global leadership but faces domestic challenges — per capita wealth disparities, overcapacity, and employment issues ([08:16]).

2. U.S. Legislative Perspective: Opportunities and Perils of China Trade

• Interview with Congressman Rick Larson (D-WA, US-China Working Group Co-Chair) [09:51–21:34]
  • Describes the spectrum of views on China in Congress: "panda huggers" (friendly) and "dragon slayers" (hostile), noting he gets labeled pro-engagement ([09:51]–[10:09]).
  • Trump’s rhetoric as a candidate (tariffs, labeling China a currency manipulator) hasn't fully manifested in policy—something Larson sees as positive given the interconnectedness of U.S.-China trade ([10:31]–[10:55]).
    • Quote: “The President’s threats of tariffs ... would have had a disastrous negative economic effect.” — Rick Larson [11:19]
  • Different regions perceive China differently: While the Midwest blames China for job loss, in the Pacific Northwest, China is a major customer for American products, notably Boeing aircraft ([12:00]–[13:21]).
  • The Trump administration’s transactional approach leaves broader opportunities untapped (e.g., climate business via the Paris Agreement). U.S. withdrawal from international trade agreements cedes influence to China ([14:16]–[15:33]).
    • Quote: “A transactional relationship means they don’t need to worry about democracy ... or America talking about these issues that have been important to our foreign policy.” — Rick Larson [15:55]
  • Discussion of the “Thucydides Trap”—the fear that U.S. and China could stumble into conflict, though Larson is skeptical of its inevitability ([17:08]–[17:52]).
  • U.S. withdrawal from the TPP weakens its regional leadership; China’s counterproposal, RCEP, lacks strong labor and environmental standards ([18:31]–[21:09]).
    • Quote: “A trade agreement without us is going to give everyone else the opportunity to get ahead of us.” — Rick Larson [20:12]

3. Ai Weiwei on Art, Authority, and the Limits of Freedom

• Interview with Ai Weiwei (Artist and Dissident) [22:23–34:25]
  • Ai discusses his "Good Fences Make Good Neighbors" art project—public installations exploring the refugee crisis, aiming to intersect with the everyday fabric of New York, not just as isolated museum pieces ([23:41]–[24:59]).
    • Quote: “Public art should not be a piece blown up from the little works in the museum, but rather to relate to daily life.” — Ai Weiwei [23:52]
  • His experiences in refugee camps across Europe inspired documentary work; he is struck by the inhumanity encountered and the insufficient global response ([25:15]–[26:47]).
  • Reflects on government restrictions and the surreal experience of having his passport seized by Chinese authorities; contrasts feeling of being constantly surveilled in China vs. freedom abroad ([26:57]–[28:27]).
    • Quote: “I don’t feel that kind of pressure [abroad] as when I was in China ... they can take me in or make me disappear any moment.” — Ai Weiwei [28:07]
  • The rules for artistic and political expression in China are deliberately kept ambiguous—limits change constantly, fostering a climate of uncertainty and fear ([29:33]–[29:53]).
    • Quote: “You can never really be clear ... that’s the power of the game. You can never be clear, that always can be changed.” — Ai Weiwei [29:40]
  • On being erased from public discourse: “I’m a non-person. But ... the real problem is the sense of the freedom. And that is most dangerous. That’s the real limit.” ([30:32]–[30:45])
  • Optimistic about direct speech in social media; suggests truth is sometimes better exposed by unvarnished, even reckless communication than by hiding ([31:10]–[31:39]).
  • On critics who claim he doesn’t give the government credit for economic progress: he argues that authoritarianism and censorship diminish China’s future cultural contributions, and that the rapid development has left deep problems ([32:12]–[33:09]).
  • Skeptical of China’s (and the U.S.’s) ability to be dominant 21st-century world powers due to lack of vision and structural barriers ([33:39]–[34:15]).

4. China’s Soft Power: Science Fiction, Gender, and Changing Values

a. The Three-Body Problem and Chinese Sci-Fi

• Josh Rothman (New Yorker) with Ken Liu (Translator) [35:32–40:02]
  • The "Three-Body Problem" is a breakout Chinese sci-fi novel (by Liu Cixin), unique for its grand vision and willingness to imagine radical change; Chinese critics note it doesn’t “write like a Chinese” novel ([35:45]–[37:53]).
    • The plot reflects on China’s recent history (the Cultural Revolution) and asks how fundamental values like freedom and love would survive extreme circumstances.
    • Quote: “A far more interesting reading of the novel is ... do ideas about authoritarianism and democracy ... survive when humanity itself is placed under extraordinary pressures of survival?” — Ken Liu [39:15]

b. The Trump Family’s Perception in China, Gender Roles & Feminism

• Jia Yang Fan (New Yorker) with Evelyn Hui (NYU student) and Xiao Wenliang (Feminist Activist) [41:34–54:37]
  • Trump has a significant following in China, with many admiring his bluntness and “hot takes” due to cultural unfamiliarity with concepts like political correctness ([41:34]).
  • Ivanka Trump is viewed as the “ideal woman”—balancing beauty, family, and professional success (called “I Wonka” and described as possessing “great looks and talents”) ([42:32]).
    • Quote: “She has achieved a balance between work and family.” — Evelyn Hui [43:39]
  • Chinese women face pressure to marry young and not be “leftover women” (unmarried after a certain age); those with higher education are sometimes discriminated against in the marriage market ([45:18]–[46:57]).
  • The enduring influence of Confucian patriarchy; the activist Xiao Wenliang shares the challenges and personal risks of advocating for women’s rights in China, including state pressure and detention of activists ([47:45]–[51:10]).
    • Quote: “Five of my colleagues were detained ... because they planned to carry out an activity on anti sexual harassment on public transportation.” — Xiao Wenliang [51:10]
  • Government conflates feminist organizing with “dangerous” Western influence; nationalistic sentiment is used to resist grassroots change ([52:41]–[53:26]).
    • Quote: “Once the government ... say what you have been doing is being influenced by Western hostile forces ... especially nationalists ... will try to attack feminists.” — Xiao Wenliang [52:46]

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• “[Chinese] people would say, wow, this is so fascinating. This is even better than House of Cards.” — Yuan Anzhang [02:32]
• “The Chinese public ... were fascinated by how fluent [Trump’s] grandchildren could like, sing Chinese songs.” — Yuan Anzhang [04:46]
• “You can never really be clear ... that’s the power of the game. You can never be clear, that always can be changed.” — Ai Weiwei [29:40]
• “I’m a non-person. But ... the real problem is the sense of the freedom. And that is most dangerous. That’s the real limit.” — Ai Weiwei [30:32]
• “She just seems elegant and she seems well in doing both. She seems to be good with whatever she’s doing.” — Evelyn Hui on Ivanka Trump [44:20]
• “Five of my colleagues were detained ... because they planned to carry out an activity on anti sexual harassment on public transportation.” — Xiao Wenliang [51:10]
• “Once the government ... say what you have been doing is being influenced by Western hostile forces ... especially nationalists ... will try to attack feminists.” — Xiao Wenliang [52:46]

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:03–09:09] — Interview with Yuan Anzhang on Chinese perceptions of American politics
• [09:51–21:34] — Interview with Congressman Rick Larson on US-China trade and policy
• [22:23–34:25] — Interview with Ai Weiwei on art, activism, and Chinese authority
• [35:32–40:02] — Chinese science fiction and “The Three-Body Problem”
• [41:34–54:37] — China’s perception of the Trumps, gender roles, and feminism in modern China

Tone & Style

The episode mixes even-handed reportage, personal insight, and probing interviews. Evan Osnos blends deep knowledge of China with curiosity and a respect for nuance. Ai Weiwei’s segment is thoughtful, candid, with an undercurrent of both resignation and hope. The discussions with Chinese women about gender offer an intimate, sometimes painful, look at evolving social norms, always staying true to the unscripted voices of the participants.

Conclusion

This wide-ranging episode explores the evolving relationship between China and the U.S., the subtle reality behind headlines about trade and politics, the perils and power of creative dissent, and how gender and generational change are reshaping Chinese society. Whether through the lens of strategic cooperation, futuristic fiction, or everyday personal struggle, it offers listeners a multifaceted window into one of the world’s most important bilateral relationships.