Angélique Kidjo and David Byrne on “Remain in Light”

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Angélique Kidjo and David Byrne on “Remain in Light”

Podcast: The New Yorker Radio Hour
Host: WNYC Studios and The New Yorker
Date: June 5, 2018
Host/Moderator: David Remnick, Staff writer Amanda Petrusich
Guests: Angélique Kidjo, David Byrne

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Overview

This episode explores the intersection of African and Western music through Angélique Kidjo’s ambitious track-by-track cover of the Talking Heads’ 1980 album Remain in Light. Host Amanda Petrusich (on behalf of David Remnick) interviews Kidjo and, later, David Byrne, delving into the genesis, cultural context, and personal significance of both the original album and Kidjo’s reinterpretation. The conversation also examines wider issues of cultural exchange, resilience, and the global language of music.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Motivation Behind Covering Remain in Light

• Resonance with Contemporary Times:
  Kidjo explains that the project was partly inspired by political and cultural parallels between the Reagan era and contemporary America, evoking “the joy and anguish” reflected in the original album.
  • “It comes to mind that this song, that album was released in the Reagan era and the joy and anguish that I feel in it, it was due to that time. And I wanted to bring into this album the resilience of Africans.” (Angélique Kidjo, 01:43)
• Personal Connection:
  Kidjo describes how she related to the music’s African elements, even before understanding its full context.
  • “Once in a lifetime. For me, it's really about the fact that we can make mistake, but you make mistakes, you ask yourself questions and you move forward.” (Kidjo, 02:21)

2. Interpreting and Reimagining Iconic Tracks

• On “Houses in Motion”:
  • Kidjo shares how she used her native language and personal life experience to express resilience in the face of poverty and displacement.
    • “What I'm saying in my language there is that I woke up one morning with no shoes on, no clothes, no house in the cold. But deep down in my soul, I know I was going to be okay.” (Kidjo, 02:51)

3. Kidjo’s Journey from Benin to Paris

• Struggles with Racism and Belonging:
  Kidjo recalls her early experiences of prejudice and ignorance in France after leaving Benin in 1983, and her determination to challenge stereotypes and assert Africa’s rich culture.
  • “People ask you, how do you go about to go do your shopping, on the back of elephant?...You guys have no culture, no civilization... My first year was a year where I cried every day to go to bed.” (Kidjo, 03:54)

4. Discovering Remain in Light as an African Immigrant

• A Surprising Connection:
  Kidjo first encountered “Once in a Lifetime” at a party in Paris and immediately sensed its African roots—only to be told, “they’re American, white Americans.”
  • “I heard music that brought me back home without me much understanding what the Talking Heads was about, because let's face it, rock and roll is not really famous in Africa.” (Kidjo, 05:23)

5. David Byrne Joins; Reflections on Collaboration and Cultural Links

• Mutual Appreciation and Friendship:
  Byrne describes Kidjo’s project as “brave and incredibly flattering," and notes her interpretive transitions tying songs to traditional Yoruba music and spiritual chants.
  • “She created these transitions... where she would relate the songs to more traditional Yoruba music. There were sometimes chants to the orishas and other kinds of things.” (Byrne, 07:29)
• Origin of Remain in Light:
  Byrne explains the creative process with producer Brian Eno, blending improvisational studio techniques with inspiration from African rhythms, but acknowledges their approach was “reinventing the wheel”—intuitive rather than directly imitative.
  • “We were kind of connecting with a lot of African music, funk music...but we were getting there the long way around.” (Byrne, 10:00)

6. Fela Kuti and Afrobeat’s Influence

• African Innovation:
  Kidjo discusses how Fela Kuti revolutionized Nigerian music and society with Afrobeat and politically charged lyrics, linking artistic creativity with activism.
  • “Fela was so provocative in his words...That song was written to tell the policemen, the military, to stop bullying people, to do their job, to protect the people...” (Kidjo, 10:59)
• Global Exchange:
  Byrne was “knocked out” by Fela’s records, noting how Afrobeat synthesizes American funk with Nigerian rhythms—a perfect symbol of musical cross-pollination.

7. Debate: Cultural Exchange vs. Appropriation

• Retrospective on 1980:
  Byrne admits they “didn’t think about it all that much” at the time, but made a point to publicly acknowledge their influences, even including a bibliography in the press materials.
  • “People thought it was very pretentious at the time to put bibliography on a press release. Yeah. And so it did ask those questions and encourage people to challenge us.” (Byrne, 13:03)
• Kidjo’s View on Cultural Ownership:
  She argues that no one truly owns culture, as it is a fluid collection of influences, but draws the line at unethical expropriation without proper credit or understanding.
  • “Who are we to own any culture? Even our culture doesn't belong to us. It's a collection of different things...We have to be careful of saying our culture. We are all citizens of this world and we travel...” (Kidjo, 13:23)

8. ‘Repatriating’ Remain in Light to Africa

• Kidjo expresses a desire for the project to return full circle, performing her interpretations in Africa and highlighting the journey of music across continents and cultures.
  • “That's the point of doing this album, to bring rock and roll back to Africa for you to realize that is not the music that people are. Everybody is just going like, ah, we can't dance. And that thing is stupid music. I say, no, there's no such a thing as stupid music. It comes from Africa and goes back.” (Kidjo, 14:31)

9. Notable Moments of Warmth and Humor

• Kidjo singing happy birthday to Byrne in her native language (06:34).
• Playful banter over favorite songs—Byrne teasing Kidjo about which of her earlier works he first loved (15:12).

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Notable Quotes

• Angélique Kidjo:
  • “Every time I hear [music in the West], they sound African. When I first heard the Ravel Bolero, I said, this is African mode. And people go, no, you guys are savages.” (04:30)
• David Byrne:
  • “We realized that we were... connecting with a lot of African music, funk music and things like that. But we were getting there the long way around... But it was very different than African music or James Brown or anything else that was out there.” (10:00)
• On Appropriation:
  • “Who are we to own any culture? Even our culture doesn't belong to us...when you take somebody's music, you put your name on it, you make it yours, and, you know, recognize that somebody else have written that song...it's a different story. We don't...mix those two things together.” (Kidjo, 13:23)

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Timestamps of Important Segments

| Timestamp | Topic | |-----------|---------------------------------------------------| | 01:43 | Kidjo on the political resonance of Remain in Light| | 02:51 | Meaning behind “Houses in Motion” | | 03:54 | Struggles with racism in Paris | | 05:23 | First hearing Remain in Light | | 06:30 | David Byrne joins the conversation | | 07:29 | Byrne on Kidjo’s live reinterpretation | | 08:16 | Origins and creation of Remain in Light | | 10:59 | Fela Kuti’s impact (Kidjo on Afrobeat) | | 13:03 | Byrne on acknowledging influences (bibliography) | | 13:23 | Kidjo on what constitutes cultural appropriation | | 14:31 | Performing Remain in Light in Africa | | 15:21 | Banter about song selection |

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Episode Tone

The conversation is vibrant, warm, and deeply thoughtful—balancing critical discussion of serious cultural questions with a sense of personal connection and shared musical joy. Kidjo’s energetic storytelling and humor, Byrne’s reflective openness, and the host’s genuine curiosity make for a lively, accessible, and inspiring episode.

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This summary captures the essence and key moments of the Angélique Kidjo and David Byrne episode on “Remain in Light,” providing a comprehensive guide for anyone interested in music, cultural history, and the evolution of a classic album across continents and genres.

Transcript

[Angelique Kijo]

From One World Trade center in Manhattan, this is the New Yorker Radio Hour.

[David Remnick]

I'm David Remnick and you're listening to the New Yorker Radio Hour, and you're listening right now to Once in a Lifetime. Once in a Lifetime was a quirky success for the Talk. It was a song that was a little strange for some radio stations at first, but it went on to have a very long shelf life. It was written by the band with producer Brian Eno and sung by David Byrne. Now, there's a new version being released this month.

[Angelique Kijo]

And you may ask yourself, well, how did I get here? Letting the Days Go by.

[Helen Rosner]

Letting the Days Go by.

[David Remnick]

Angelique Kijo is one of the global stars of African music and a UNICEF goodwill ambassador as well. Her version of Once in a Lifetime is not a one off. Kijo is releasing a cover album of The Talking Head's 1980 record, Remain in Light, track by track, start to finish. Staff writer Amanda Petrusic recently talked about the project with Angelique Kejo and they'll be joined by David Byrne in a couple of minutes.

[Interviewer/Host]

I was hoping you could talk to us a little bit about what made you want to take on a track by track cover of an album that was released almost 40 years ago.

[Angelique Kijo]

I think that this started one or two years ago where you wake up and you have something in your head. So are we humming? Because it's even that it looked like an African melody. So with what is going on today after the election of the president that we have in this country, it comes to mind that this song, that album was released in the Reagan era and the joy and anguish that I feel in it, it was due to that time. And I wanted to bring into this album the resilience of Africans. Once in a lifetime. For me, it's really about the fact that we can make mistake, but you make mistakes, you ask yourself questions and you move forward.

[Interviewer/Host]

Why don't we listen to a little bit of Houses in Motion?

[Angelique Kijo]

Oh, yeah, I'm walking alive. Yeah, that song is. It's another one that for me, talk about the right of people to have a roof over the head, brings back the anxiety in 2008 when we had the economical crisis. And what I'm saying in my language there is that I woke up one morning with no shoes on, no clothes, no house in the cold. But deep down in my soul, I know I was going to be okay. That if I put myself to do something, I can't do it.

[Interviewer/Host]

So you left Benin in 1983 to study jazz in Paris. Was that a difficult transition for you?

[Angelique Kijo]

Oh, boy. Yeah, it was a difficult one. I left September 11, 1983, and the first year for me was an adjustment year of a lot of something that you take in, because what you read in the book, what you hear about the country is very difficult when you come and live in it. France, a country of welcoming people of culture, and so much racism based on ignorance. People ask you, how do you go about to go do your shopping on the back of elephant. And I say, yes, also on the wings and the arms of monkeys, too. I mean, it was 1983. And everything you say, they look at you like, uh, you don't belong. And what you're saying about Africa is not what we know. You guys have no culture, no civilization, and you're gonna tell me, you know this and you know that, and this come from Africa? Because every time I hear her music, I'm gon. I go, they sound African. When I first heard the Ravel Bolero, I said, this is African mode. And people go, no, you guys are savages. What do you know about classical music? All those kind of stuff. My first year was a year where I cried every day to go to bed.

[Interviewer/Host]

When and how did you first hear Remain in Light?

[Angelique Kijo]

Well, in those first two years in the school when I arrived, some people were very nice. So I hang out with those people that are not snobbish and thinking that because I'm black, I'm just a stupid girl around the corner. And I rem. I remember we went to a party. I don't even remember, really, the circumstances. And somebody put once in a lifetime. And I saw everybody start dancing. I'm like, these musicians are African. And they're like, no, they're American. They're white Americans. And the person said to me, before you say it comes from Africa, shut up. It's rock and roll. I'm like, okay, I'm just saying. I'm just telling you. That day I went to bed smiling. I'm like. I heard music that brought me back home without me much understanding what the Talking Heads was about, because let's face it, rock and roll is not really famous in Africa.

[Interviewer/Host]

I'm curious how you went about getting permission from the band to take on these songs.

[Angelique Kijo]

The thing that is really important here that I want to bring up is when I start. I've been signed to island record in the 1990s. So I came. I started touring in America, and when I came to play in New York, I played at sobs. And the first American artist that came to see me, to support me was David Byrne.

[Interviewer/Host]

So that was the beginning of a friendship, if not quite a collaboration.

[Angelique Kijo]

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

[Interviewer/Host]

Well, I believe we have David Byrne on the phone joining us from his hotel room.

[Angelique Kijo]

Hello, David.

[David Byrne]

Hi, how are you?

[Angelique Kijo]

Happy birthday to you.

[David Byrne]

Oh, my God.

[Angelique Kijo]

Wait, I will do it in my language, then you won't be embarrassed. Gigi zangwe nue Gigi zangwe nunwe David Gigi zangwe ngue.

[Interviewer/Host]

Ah, beautiful.

[David Byrne]

Oh, mercy. Thank you.

[Interviewer/Host]

What a lovely greeting and a terrific way for you to join us. So Angelique and I have been speaking a little bit about her covers of Remain in Light. Can you tell me a little bit about your reaction when you first heard Angelique was taking on this project?

[David Byrne]

I thought, what a brave move. What a brave. Incredibly flattering to me. And also I thought a brave move for her to take on a project that this is as conceptual as this. I saw Angelique's show at Carnegie hall and she created these transitions between the songs where she would relate. Angelique, correct me if I'm wrong.

[Angelique Kijo]

No, you're right.

[David Byrne]

Relate the songs to more traditional Yoruba music. There were sometimes chants to the orishas and other kinds of things that would kind of give a deeper, richer connection between the songs and the music and Angelique's background.

[Interviewer/Host]

And, David, I was hoping to talk to you a little bit about, you know, the process of making this record. And, you know, in 1979, 1980, talking heads were known as a new wave band. But Remain in Light isn't a new wave record, or not exactly. Can you tell us a little bit about where the impulse to do something different came from for you?

[David Byrne]

Let's see. Brian and I worked on a record called My Life in the Bush of Ghosts, where we kind of built the record up by using the various tracks of the recording studio and then improvising grooves and then switching things on and off and that sort of thing. And we realized that we could create something kind of weirdly, robotically, whatever, funky, and by using that method. And we were very excited about it.

[Angelique Kijo]

Do you hear voices? You do. So you are possessed. You are a believer. Born again. And yet you have isis. And you are for that. Okay, now you're ready to be the rhythm.

[David Byrne]

So we brought the idea to the band and said, we want to. We think we can push this further and do it with. Use this process with a whole band instead of just the two of us. And we could use my vocals instead of using found vocals sometimes.

[Angelique Kijo]

The world has a load of questions Seems like the world knows nothing at.

[David Byrne]

All the world is near but it's out of reach Some people touch it but they can't hold on.

[Helen Rosner]

Is moving.

[Angelique Kijo]

To describe the world she.

[David Byrne]

We realized that we were. We were kind of connecting with a lot of African music, funk music and things like that. But we were getting there the long way around. We were. We were sort of reinventing the wheel in a way. But it was very different than African music or James Brown or anything else that was out there.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, when I first heard the record, I thought it sounded like nothing I'd ever heard or experienced. You know, it seemed to me almost like it was being beamed in from outer space. I wanted to talk to you both a little bit about Fila Kuti. Maybe you could kind of quantify or explain what he means to African musicians.

[Angelique Kijo]

Well, in the 70s, when Fela Kuti started his Afrobeat, he transformed completely music of Nigeria, because we were in the middle of Juju and Fuji music, all those traditional way of dancing. And Fela was so provocative in his words. And I remember vividly when the song Zombie came out. It was a riot every day in the street in Nigeria. That song was written to tell the policemen, the military, to stop bullying people, to do their job, to protect the people, not to just take orders stupidly and killing innocent people. It start shifting Nigeria to the democracy that it is today.

[David Byrne]

I forget what year I first heard some of Fela's recordings, but I was knocked out. Of course. I loved the grooves and the beats. Later on, I read that in creating this music, it was a kind of synthesis of music that he'd heard in America. James Brown and Coltrane and all kinds of other things with more traditional Nigerian music.

[Interviewer/Host]

I did want to talk a little bit about this idea of cultural exchange and synthesis and the sort of way in which music or the way in which sound moves, you know, between countries or between cultures. David, I suspect if Remain in Light were released today, you know, the Internet would have a lot to say about cultural appropriation and this kind of question of how to responsibly repurpose or sort of borrow from a culture that isn't necessarily your own. I mean, it seems like that question has taken on a certain urgency lately. Was it an issue or something you thought about in 1980 when you were making Remain in Light?

[David Byrne]

I didn't think about it all that much because I realized that we were not directly copying anything. There was an obvious influence. I made that clear in the Whatever. The press release that went out.

[Angelique Kijo]

You.

[Interviewer/Host]

Included a reading list?

[David Byrne]

I included her reading list. People thought it was very pretentious at the time to put bibliography on a press release. Yeah. And so it kind of. It did ask those questions and encourage people to kind of. Kind of challenge us with those kind of questions, too.

[Angelique Kijo]

Yeah, but the thing is about. I've been hearing this question. I've been asked that question all the time, too. And I said to people that, who are we to own any culture? Even our culture doesn't belong to us. It's a collection of different things. But there are other problems for cultural appropriation. When you take somebody's music, you put your name on it, you make it yours, and, you know, recognize that somebody else have written that song that you are producing like Elvis Presley has done. It's a different story. We don't. We cannot mix those two things together with the Talking Heads album, Remaining Light, and anything else, because that's just the way music work. So for me, we have to be careful of saying our culture. We are all citizens of this world and we travel. If you bring music from somewhere and you bring it to your way and say, this is what inspired me. We cannot talk about cultural appropriation.

[Interviewer/Host]

Angelique, I'm curious if you have or perhaps have plans to perform these songs in Africa and if that will feel like a kind of repatriation, you know, bringing these. These songs back home.

[Angelique Kijo]

Definitely. If I have to tour there, that's what I'm gonna play. And that's the point of doing this album, to bring rock and roll back to Africa for you to realize that is not the music that people are. Everybody is just going like, ah, we can't dance. And that thing is stupid music. I say, no, there's no such a thing as stupid music. It comes from Africa and goes back. It's always that kind of back and forth of music that. That tell the story of our being on this planet.

[Interviewer/Host]

Beautiful. Well, thank you both so much for being here today. David, what song should we play out on? You decide.

[David Byrne]

Give us a taste of one of Angelique's songs. Not from this record.

[Angelique Kijo]

I love it. Yeah. Bar, man, you didn't prepare that right. I knew he was gonna trick you. David. Don't play with David. I knew he was gonna trick you. I'm like. And this is true.

[David Byrne]

Yeah, yeah. I think the first record I heard of Angelique was Lugozo.

[Angelique Kijo]

No.

[David Byrne]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Angelique Kijo]

And you like Batonga?

[David Byrne]

Yeah, I love that one.

[Angelique Kijo]

Okay. Yes.

[David Byrne]

That would be a great song to Play.

[Interviewer/Host]

Perfect. Let's do it.

[David Remnick]

Angelique Kejo's new record is Remain in Light, based on The Talking Head's 1980 album of the same name. David Byrne's new album is American Utopia, and he's on tour all summer. They spoke in May. Helen Rosner recently joined us as a food correspondent, covering food and food conference on TV and in books and everywhere else you can find it, including your plate. Helen just about broke the Internet in half this spring when she tweeted about the correct use of a hair dryer in the way you roast a chicken. So listen up. There's a lot you can learn.

[Helen Rosner]

Hi.

[David Remnick]

I just had the best half doughnut of my life.

[Helen Rosner]

Oh.

[David Remnick]

If you're not recommending the black and white donut, we have nothing to speak of.

[Helen Rosner]

Did you have the black half or the white half?

[David Remnick]

You know, I wasn't born yesterday. I got half of the black half.

[Angelique Kijo]

And half of the white half.

[Helen Rosner]

Perfect.

[Angelique Kijo]

Okay.

[Helen Rosner]

The first thing I'm super excited about, I don't have a prop for. I brought you all these props.

[David Byrne]

It helps.

[Helen Rosner]

Well, I'm gonna describe to you a television show so let's, you know, cast our minds into the land of imagination. There's this show on Netflix called Nailed it, which debuted earlier this year back in March. And Nailed it is the most joyous and delightful and bizarre cooking show I've ever seen. It is a show about the beauty of failure, which is hosted by Nicole Byer, who is this amazing, amazing comedian who brings in three amateur home cooks, presents them with sample baked goods that are extraordinarily elaborate, complex fondant sculpture and sugar sculpture and things like that, and asks them to recreate it in the studio kitchen with inevitably disastrous results. You have one hour to recreate your jelly filled pirate donuts. Any questions? Good. I don't have answers.

[Angelique Kijo]

Go.

[Helen Rosner]

Nail it.

[David Byrne]

Get.

[Helen Rosner]

Go.

[Angelique Kijo]

Move. I'm telling you to move.

[Helen Rosner]

There's this sort of tyranny of quality in culinary competition shows where everything is about incredible precision and anger and focus. And, you know, the difference on an episode of Iron Chef America or an episode of Chopped between one person's eggs Benedict and another's is entirely in the margins, right? These are these fractional microscopic differences between people who are professionals and are perfectionists. And here's this show where, you know, a 60 something grandma is supposed to make a donut that looks like a pirate trying to make a hole in the donut. Have you ever seen a donut without.

[Angelique Kijo]

A hole in the middle?

[Helen Rosner]

And she spends 15 minutes of her 45 minutes of cooking time trying to punch a hole in the donut before she realizes that the sample one doesn't even have a hole in the middle. And she throws her hands up in despair. I mean, and it's hilarious and funny and warm and it's such a relief. It's so lovely.

[David Byrne]

It sounds great.

[David Remnick]

I say so. Nailed it on Netflix. What's next?

[Helen Rosner]

Okay, the next thing is a book. I brought you this book. This is a book called the Sausage of the Future, and it's by a Swiss designer named Caroline Nibling. This book is the culmination of a several year long design project where Nibeling basically approached sausage the food and applied the principles of design to it. So what are the methods of making it efficiently? Who is going to be consuming it? What are the ways to make sure that this takes into account principles of sustainability and accessibility? And. And working with some molecular chefs and some designers and some culinarians has come up with this book that is equal parts manifesto, an art book, an actual functional cookbook for making things like a sausage that has no traditional meat, but entirely is made out of insects.

[Angelique Kijo]

Right.

[David Remnick]

I'm looking at bee larva, cockroaches, silkworms. Yeah, I can't wait to get that in my next sausage.

[Helen Rosner]

There's so much to learn. Sustainable future. I mean, really, the thing that grabbed me about this book, the image on the COVID which is the page you have just opened it to, is mortadella with vegetables. And I find this so arresting. So mortadella is basically bologna. Right. These are effectively the same meat. Yeah. And traditionally mortadella has pistachios in it. And part of the beauty of a slice of mortadella are these gorgeous bright green cross sections of pistachio in the kind of pale. Millennial. Millennials.

[David Remnick]

It's like you're getting broccoli and carrots here.

[Helen Rosner]

Yeah. So she adds things like what seems to be chickers, romesco. It winds up looking kind of like an MRI of a brain. And it's incredible. I love this idea of thinking about sausage, which is such a kind of borderline comical food, and using it as a vehicle for almost absurdist explorations of these design principles of sustainability.

[David Remnick]

These are amazing. And you have one more.

[Helen Rosner]

I have one more. It's finally warm out, which means it's time for me to turn my oven on. I'm really weird like this. I only like to bake in the summer, which makes no sense in terms of the climate inside my apartment. But the reason for this is that There is a recipe that I am obsessed with. The simplest way to think about it is that it's a pound cake. And if you think about what you're actually saying when you say pound cake, pound cakes traditionally are made with a pound of flour, a pound of butter, a pound of eggs, and a pound of sugar. But the batter that it makes is rich and buttery. And what's really great about it is that you can add any fruit you want to it. So now that the weather is nice, I about once a week, once every two weeks, make a huge batch of pound cake batter. Sometimes I sub in olive oil for the butter. Sometimes I use goat butter, sometimes I use whole wheat flour. It's infinitely versatile. Weigh it out into equal portions, keep them in the fridge. And whenever I come home from the farmer's market with too much of something, or if my garden has grown too many strawberries and I don't know what to do with it, I chop them up, I throw them in the cake, I throw it in the oven for 350 degrees, and 30 to 40 minutes later, I have something perfect.

[David Remnick]

And yet there's no pound cake.

[Helen Rosner]

That is. There is no pound cake. I brought props for everything else, and I didn't bring you a pound cake. I owe you a cake. I'll send you a cake.

[David Remnick]

All right.

[David Byrne]

It's a deal.

[David Remnick]

Thank you so much, Helen.

[Helen Rosner]

Thank you.

[David Remnick]

You can find Helen Rosner's writing about food@new yorker.com and that's it for this week. Keep in touch with us on Twitter New Yorkerradio and we'll see you next time.

[Angelique Kijo]

The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co production of WNYC Studios and the New Yorker. Our theme music was composed by Meryl Garbus of Tune Yards, with additional music by Alexis Quadrado. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Chorina Endowment Fund.