Barry Blitt’s Rogues’ Gallery of Presidents

Summary

Podcast Summary: The New Yorker Radio Hour

Episode: Barry Blitt’s Rogues’ Gallery of Presidents
Date: December 5, 2017
Host: David Remnick
Guests: Barry Blitt, Hilton Als, Christine Vachon, John Early

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Episode Overview

This episode of The New Yorker Radio Hour features an in-depth conversation with acclaimed illustrator Barry Blitt about his new book and career as a political cartoonist. David Remnick explores Blitt’s evolution as an artist, his most controversial and impactful covers, and the challenges of satirizing contemporary politics. Later in the episode, Hilton Als interviews filmmaker Christine Vachon on her pioneering career in independent film—particularly her role in queer cinema and producing ground-breaking narratives like "Boys Don’t Cry" and "Kids."

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Section 1: Barry Blitt and the Art of Political Cartooning

Introduction to Barry Blitt and "Blitt"

• David Remnick introduces Barry Blitt as “one of the great cover artists for The New Yorker,” praising his “gorgeous, hilarious and provocative” illustrations and the new book Blitt ([00:36]).
• Remnick reads and pokes fun at the publisher’s blurb:

  “Barry Blitt’s cartoons have been lampooning American politics and culture, blah blah, blah, et cetera, et cetera.” ([00:36])

Blitt’s Entry into The New Yorker

• Blitt recounts his first New Yorker cover in 1993, encouraged by cover editor Francoise Mouly, and how his sketches began with everyday NYC cityscapes ([02:20]).
• His first cover depicted office workers smoking on window ledges after indoor smoking bans—capturing a specific urban shift ([03:14]).

Transition to Political Art

• Blitt describes his accidental drift into political illustration, particularly as “political news became pop culture news” during the Monica Lewinsky scandal ([03:31]).
• “As I got a little older, I had a Dorothy Hamill period where I was drawing her a lot. That ended.” ([03:31])
• Entertainment Weekly and The New Yorker began requesting Bill Clinton sketches, setting him on his new path.

Favorite Presidential Subjects & Artistic Process

• Trump is cited as a uniquely compelling subject:

  “I don’t get sick of the act of drawing Trump because … he’s an amazing specimen to draw… It just seems like he’s made out of plastic or something.” ([04:34])

• Collecting visual references for Trump results in “an enormous file... every angle you look at him, there’s a new revelation” ([04:56]).

Memorable Quote

“You wonder if... his face is his destiny or if there could be a decent person inside of that head.” — Barry Blitt ([05:41])

The Obama "Fist Bump" Cover and Its Fallout

• Blitt’s notorious satire of conspiracy theories—portraying the Obamas as radicals—was meant to be obvious satire ([06:51]).
• Remnick recalls the public outcry and deluge of angry emails ([08:11]):

  “My email, it looked like a cash register that had broken in a Charlie Chaplin movie...”

• Blitt reflects:

  “If it has to be explained to people, I’m not sure it’s a ... resounding success. I’m fond of the cartoon now. I know that I lost a bar mitzvah gig because of it.” ([08:43])

Memorable Moment:

Blitt lost a performance gig for his illustrator jazz band due to the controversy ([09:13]).

Effects of Backlash and Satire’s Limits

• He admits to feeling personal anxiety, but not losing artistic nerve ([09:40]).
• Jon Stewart’s defense of Blitt on The Daily Show helped shift the public reaction ([09:56]).
• On the challenges of satirical art in the Trump era:

  “Often he’ll go farther than that in reality. And it’s hard to ... It’s not funny anymore.” ([12:02])

Notable Quote

“It seems to be harder and harder to dream up ridiculous scenarios because they’re not so ridiculous. ... They can happen.” — Barry Blitt ([12:33])

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Section 2: Satirical Interlude – "Your New Avocado: FAQ"

• A comedic sketch written by Sarah Hutto, performed by John Early, lampoons avocado trends with deadpan humor ([13:41]).
• Highlights include riffing on the narrow window for ripeness, injury risk (“40% of avocado openings do result in fatality.” [14:41]), and the fleeting joy of avocado ownership.
• Quote:

  “Affairs with avocados are typically marked by an extremely brief honeymoon period, followed by sharply waning interest and inevitable decomposition, just like any other relationship.” ([15:15])

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Section 3: Interview – Christine Vachon and Queer Independent Cinema

Early Cinema Experiences and Artistic Beginnings

• Christine Vachon recalls growing up frequenting cheap NYC movie theaters, reflecting on how repeated viewings substituted for home video ([18:01]).
• Als and Vachon discuss the diversity and fluid boundaries of creative ambition in 1980s New York ([19:28]).

Producing Rather Than Directing

• Vachon describes why she chose producing:

  “Producing is so much more about ... having the whole picture in mind ... I just didn’t think I was well suited [to directing].” ([20:47])

• It’s a deliberate choice, countering the stereotype that producers lack creative ambition ([20:46]).

The Making of Landmark Films

• Discusses working on “Kids,” balancing the real-life chaos portrayed in the film with the controlled chaos of the set ([21:58]).
• Describes the impact on young actors, missing the set’s structure after filming ended ([22:43]).
• Vachon reflects on handling sensitive subject matter—like HIV in “Kids” and transgender identity in “Boys Don’t Cry”—with grounded realism ([23:13], [24:56]).

Notable Quote

“The film always bleeds into life with your projects, and life bleeds into the film. ... You were one of the first producers to ever deal with the devastation of AIDS in a real and constructive way.” — Hilton Als ([24:13])

The Long Struggle of "Boys Don’t Cry"

• The film’s development spanned seven years, from before the real killers’ trial to achieving confidence in telling Brandon Teena’s story directly ([26:08]).
• Speaks to the nuanced portrayal of characters based on deep reporting and research ([26:18]).

On "Queer Cinema" & Artistic Urgency

• Vachon discusses the coinage and label of "New Queer Cinema":

  “...if we don’t tell our stories, we’re gonna die and nobody’s gonna hear them.” ([28:50])

• The sense of urgency and crisis during the AIDS era defined the energy of those films ([28:50]).

Notable Quote

“In a way, I feel like the term new queer cinema has been stripped of that Barb, which I think is kind of the most critical part of it.” — Christine Vachon ([29:05])

Women in Independent Film & Industry Barriers

• Vachon compares the divergent career trajectories that followed Sundance success for male and female indie filmmakers ([30:15]).

  “If they were men, ... the guys are shooting stars and the girls are like crickets.” ([30:15])

• She reflects on handling “the suits” and dealing with difficult figures like Harvey Weinstein:

  “You just have to, like, take a deep breath ... means to an end ... We're gonna get this done.” ([31:56])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Blitt on Drawing Trump:
  “Every angle you look at him, there’s a new revelation. ... He’s just very interesting to draw.” ([04:56])

• On Satirical Risk:
  “If it has to be explained to people, I’m not sure it’s a ... resounding success.” ([08:43])

• Vachon on Queer Cinema:
  “It wasn’t this sudden, like, oh, we’re here, we’re queer, we’re gonna make movies. It was like, if we don’t tell our stories, we’re gonna die and nobody’s gonna hear them.” ([28:50])

• Christine Vachon's Tenacity:
  “You just have to, like, take a deep breath ... means to an end, you know ... We're going to find our point of connection and we will figure it out.” ([31:56])

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• Blitt on His First New Yorker Cover: [02:20]
• Blitt on Becoming a Political Cartoonist: [03:31]
• Favorite Presidential Subjects: [04:34]
• On Drawing Trump: [04:56]
• The Obama Cover Controversy: [06:51–09:40]
• Satirical Limits in the Trump Era: [12:02–12:56]
• "Your New Avocado: FAQ" Comedy Segment: [13:41–15:55]
• Christine Vachon Interview Begins: [16:42]
• Making "Kids" and "Boys Don't Cry": [21:27–26:08]
• On New Queer Cinema & the AIDS Urgency: [27:28–29:05]
• Women in Indie Film / Industry Bias: [30:15–31:56]

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Tone and Style

Remnick’s signature warmth and curiosity set a conversational, insightful mood. Blitt’s dry, self-deprecating humor and candor about the pressures of political satire offer unique behind-the-scenes honesty. Vachon’s voice is direct and reflective, conveying both the creative drive and resilience needed to tell marginalized stories in film.

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For Listeners New to the Episode

This episode offers a rare glimpse into how artists—across illustration and film—grapple with politics, public backlash, and the need to represent truth and complexity. Whether discussing controversy over an infamous magazine cover or the lived urgency behind New Queer Cinema, the episode captures the challenges and rewards of making art that matters.

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Transcript

[Christine Vachon]

This is World Trade center bomb one World Observatory straight up the block for.

[Hilton Als]

West Boulevard and make that right.

[David Remnick]

I basically just think it would be.

[John Early]

Interesting to look at the emergence of a criminal economy.

[Christine Vachon]

And also I'm always amazed that there.

[Barry Blitt]

Aren'T more profiles of her out there.

[Christine Vachon]

This really subversive, strange thing in rap especially, and see what their lives are like on both sides of the border.

[Narrator/Producer]

From one World Trade center in Manhattan, this is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co production of WNYC Studios and the New Yorker.

[David Remnick]

Welcome to the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. I don't think there's a keener observer of American politics and life than Barry Blitt. Now forgive me for bragging a little bit when I say this because Barry's been one of the great cover artists for the New Yorker for a very long time. By way of introduction, I'm going to read you the blurb for his new book which is called Pretty Logically Blit. Here's how it a gorgeous, hilarious and provocative compendium of the award winning artist's illustrations for the New Yorker, the New York Times, Vanity Fair, et cetera, et cetera, and so forth. Now I'm quoting, this is directly from his website. It continues, Barry Blitz cartoons have been lampooning American politics and culture, blah blah, blah, et cetera, et cetera. This lavish full color collection showcases more than a quarter century of etc. And so on and so forth. You get the idea. The less said about it the better. End quote. Barry, tell me about this book, the decision to do a book.

[Barry Blitt]

Now.

[David Remnick]

What is it? You know, you've done other books before, obviously.

[Barry Blitt]

What's this book about?

[David Remnick]

In a sense, Blitz by Barry Blitz. Good title, by the way.

[Barry Blitt]

Do you think so?

[David Remnick]

I think it's excellent.

[Barry Blitt]

I was gonna call it In One Eye and Out the Other and then it seemed pretentious and I just, at the last minute I just thought I'll use my own. This book happened now because an editor called me and said, why don't we do a collection of your stuff? And you know, I would never suggest to do something like this myself.

[David Remnick]

You never refuse an editor?

[Barry Blitt]

I refuse an editor.

[David Remnick]

This book is dominated by your work for the New Yorker and New Yorker covers, New Yorker illustrations. Although there's other material too. Tell me about your first cover for the New Yorker. I think it was in 1993.

[Barry Blitt]

Yeah, it was. And I mean obviously your first one. You remember. I remember Francoise had been encouraging me to. I had been doing interior drawings for her first for Chris Curry and then for Francoise as well.

[David Remnick]

That's Francoise Mouly, who's the New Yorker's cover editor.

[Barry Blitt]

Right. And she encouraged me to send sketches for cover ideas, which I didn't think was my thing. I was doing mostly small drawings. And so what I would do then, this was before I was getting asked to do topical political stuff. I would walk around New York City, which I was new to, and I would scribble. You know, I'd see a hot dog vendor. Oh, that's a great idea. That's so New York. Or a cab truck. And I remember seeing business people standing outside offices smoking cigarettes, because all of a sudden you couldn't smoke in offices anymore. And so that seemed like a good idea. And I put them on window ledges.

[David Remnick]

So it's a cityscape of people standing on window ledges. And that was your first cover. But now you've become known as really a great political artist, you know, like Thomas Nast or Herblock or. But yourself, did you think of yourself as a political person growing up?

[Barry Blitt]

Absolutely not. No. That wasn't my thing at all. I mean, I liked hockey and some baseball and then pop music. As I got a little older, I had a Dorothy Hamill period where I was drawing her a lot. That ended. But I think. I mean, as I wrote in the book, it seemed like when Monica Lewinsky gate happened, when that stuff started, when political news became pop culture news, and I was doing regular stuff for Entertainment Weekly, and they started asking me to draw Bill Clinton, and I was drawing Bill Clinton for the New Yorker as well. It sort of happened from there.

[David Remnick]

What do you want your political art to do? You've done dozens of covers about George W. Bush that was a favorite subject for certain, and dozens of covers about Obama. And we'll go into some of the specifics in a second. And now Trump at an even greater rate. Is anybody of all your subjects, of all your political subjects, a favorite, somebody you don't get sick of?

[Barry Blitt]

You mean people? I draw subjects. I mean, I don't get sick of the act of drawing Trump because, I mean, he's an amazing specimen to draw, as I think a lot of presidents are, you know, crazily enough, although he's on another level.

[David Remnick]

Well, describe that for me artistically. Why is he an amazing specimen to draw?

[Barry Blitt]

I'm. I mean, just. I mean, when I'm collecting photo reference, I use photo reference for everything. Some cartoonists don't have to. So I'll. Whenever I see a photo of someone I want to draw. I'll drag it onto my desktop from wherever it is, and I've just got an enormous file of Trump because it seems like every angle you look at him, there's a new revelation. You see a chin you hadn't noticed before, or there's something about the overbite or the sweep of the hair. You know, it just seems like he's made out of plastic or something. He's just very interesting to draw. And you wonder if, I mean, if, you know, his face is his destiny or if there could be a decent person inside of that head.

[David Remnick]

You know, what do you see in his face?

[Barry Blitt]

I mean, I look at a lot of pictures of him and Trump. Sometimes I try and, like, play a game with myself and suppose that this is a great man here. This is a kind, you know, moral, you know, intelligent man. And sometimes I can almost do it. You know, I can see humanity in his face sometimes. But, you know, he keeps proving me wrong.

[David Remnick]

Barry, my recollection is that during the Bush administration, you did many, many covers about Bush. I don't remember us ever getting any. You know, people would moan or send a note and think we'd gone too far or whatever, but nothing terrible and certainly nothing from the Bush administration. Along comes Barack Obama, and he's running for president. And it is in the interim between, as I recall, it was the summer, so it was clear that he was the nominee, a Democratic nominee, and he was being called a. Not a patriot, that his wife was somehow a kind of terrorist, that he was born in a foreign land, that he was a Muslim, as if there was something wrong with that. And you decide to do what?

[Barry Blitt]

I just, I remember sketching in my sketchbook and thinking, I think it was after Fox called, when him. And when Obama and Michelle had done a fist bump, they'd done a fist bump, and they called it a terrorist fist bump on Fox. And I just thought, wouldn't it be funny to draw everything that they're saying and put it in one picture? And so that's what I did. They were saying that there was a video of Michelle saying kill whitey. That, of course, never materialized. So I drew her as sort of an Angela Davis style black militant, Black panther. And I drew Barack as what they were whispering about him. And I stuck a burning American flag in the fireplace, just a.

[David Remnick]

And a portrait of Osama bin Laden above the fireplace.

[Barry Blitt]

Right. Just to telegraph that this is, you know, this is satire. This is not real.

[David Remnick]

And how did you experience the reaction sitting in Connecticut?

[Barry Blitt]

The reaction was Harsh. And it was immediate. I mean, it was Sunday night before the magazine came out, but I guess it's leaked to the press on Sunday. And so I started, I think the Huffington Post called me Sunday evening and asked if I regretted it. And I didn't even know it was out yet. And I think I answered glibly. But, you know, by the next day, I learned how many emails it takes to fill up an AOL inbox. It's 1000. Because it went to 1000 immediately.

[David Remnick]

Yeah, my email, it looked like a cash register that had broken in a Charlie Chaplin movie or something like that. Dun dun dun dun dun dun. Kept coming and coming and coming. And the biggest sentiment, it was people on the Democratic side saying, of course I understand it. This was the main line of logic. Of course, I get it. But those people out there, meaning in the big square states, big red states and so on, they're going to take it as confirmation of everything that Fox is telling them. When you look back on it now, do you think of it as a triumph or a mistake or something in between?

[Barry Blitt]

As far as the cartoon itself, I think of as an experiment. I tried something. I'm not sure it worked. I mean, if it has to be explained to people, I'm not sure it's a, you know, it's a resounding success. I'm fond of the cartoon now. I know that I lost a bar mitzvah gig because of it. I have a little band of illustrators. And that was one of the first reactions to it was I got a call from a lady in Katona who had hired me to play music at her.

[David Remnick]

She dumped the band.

[Barry Blitt]

She dumped the band? Yeah.

[David Remnick]

What's the band? I didn't know this.

[Barry Blitt]

It's better you don't know.

[David Remnick]

I want to know.

[Barry Blitt]

I shouldn't have brought it up.

[David Remnick]

I want to know. What do you play?

[Barry Blitt]

I play a little piano.

[David Remnick]

You play a little piano? What kind of songs does the band play?

[Barry Blitt]

We play some jazz and some blues and some rock and stuff.

[David Remnick]

But did it change your. Did it make you any more nervous? Did you lose your nerve for a bit after that experience?

[Barry Blitt]

Not work wise, really. I mean, I was nervous at home.

[David Remnick]

In a physical way, sure.

[Barry Blitt]

Yeah.

[David Remnick]

Like someone would burst through and hurt you?

[Barry Blitt]

No, I just meant nervous as in, you know, walking around with a stomachache nervous.

[David Remnick]

For how long?

[Barry Blitt]

How long? A couple of days. A few days, I think until Jon Stewart came on and, you know, he said, you know, come on, everyone, this is a cartoon, you know, and it's the reaction out there seemed to change after that, too.

[David Remnick]

I gotta say, I'm forever grateful to him.

[Barry Blitt]

Yeah.

[David Remnick]

Now, you know, New Yorker covers have had different phases. In the early Jazz Age era, there were these kind of jazzy, highly colorful, vivid colors. By the 50s, 60s, and certainly into the 70s, William Shawn, who was editor for a long, long time, quieted them down. There would often be covers of the New Yorker that were bowls of fruit or abandoned summer houses or just a line of laundry, just one single sheet hanging out in a kind of Cape Cod, September. It was a calming strategy almost. And then other things happened. Do you look back on those eras and see anything that you miss? We got criticized recently in Slate that our covers are too, quote, unquote, thirsty. I'm a little thirsty right now. That they're kind of grasping for attention rather than having this old notion of beauty.

[Barry Blitt]

Yeah, I can't really relate to that personally. I mean, I like a little punch. I mean, it's nice to have a punch and have it in sort of a velvet glove. Is that an actual metaphor? It could be. That's something Trump would say he invented. But, I mean, it's nice to have an image that is sort of quiet in itself, but is jabbing someone.

[David Remnick]

Philip Roth once said that reality, American reality, has a way of just outrunning art. And any attempt to create purely from the imagination just too American life is too bizarre. When do you finally say, you know what? This might make a funny drawing, but it's just, I can't. I just can't do it.

[Barry Blitt]

It's happening now. I mean, as much as I mentioned that I enjoyed drawing Trump's head and his face and the back of his head, et cetera. I mean, often what you're doing when you're creating a cartoon of someone like that is saying, imagine if he did this. But often he'll go farther than that in reality. And it's hard to. It's not funny anymore. But it seems to be harder and harder to dream up ridiculous scenarios because they're not so ridiculous. You know, they can happen.

[David Remnick]

They happen every day.

[Barry Blitt]

They happen every day. And, I mean, the Harvey Weinstein thing seemed like it was something to make fun of, but since then, I mean, there's been a lot. A lot of names added to that, you know, that particular docket. And that's hard to make fun of, too. So it feels like the walls are closing in on us.

[David Remnick]

Sounds like we could both use a week off.

[Barry Blitt]

Yeah.

[David Remnick]

Barry Blitz, thanks so much.

[Barry Blitt]

Thank you, dav.

[David Remnick]

Barry Blitz, New book is called Blitz the Book. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. More to come.

[Narrator/Producer]

You're listening to the New Yorker Radio Hour.

[John Early]

Congratulations on your avocado. Getting a new avocado can be a thrilling and exciting moment in a person's life. Regardless of what you plan to use your avocado for, there are some special guidelines you should follow to ensure that you receive maximum enjoyment from your avocado.

[Narrator/Producer]

How should I store my avocado?

[John Early]

Your avocado should be stored in plain view on your countertop to serve as a symbol of your wastefulness as you'll inevitably miss the ripeness window and basically just throw out $3.

[David Remnick]

How will I know when my avocado is ripe?

[John Early]

Avocados become ripe for a brief period between every third harvest moon and the onset of praying mantis mating. The ripeness period lasts for approximately four hours. Immediately after the ripeness period, the avocado ceases to be food. Okay, so I have accidentally severed my jugular vein while trying to pit my avocado.

[David Remnick]

What should I do?

[John Early]

About 40% of avocado openings do result in fatality. It is for this reason that we recommend only opening your avocado in print, proximity to a fresh supply of blood. Never pitch your avocado while alone or intoxicated.

[Narrator/Producer]

I overheard Oprah saying that avocados contain healthy fats. Do I need to understand what that even means, or can I just go around saying it now, too?

[John Early]

You can and should go around saying it, too.

[Christine Vachon]

Yeah.

[John Early]

I've developed inappropriate feelings for my avocado.

[David Remnick]

Is that weird?

[Hilton Als]

That's weird, right?

[John Early]

Hey, life is short and the heart wants what it wants. Affairs with avocados are typically marked by an extremely brief honeymoon period, followed by sharply waning interest and inevitable decomposition, just like any other relationship. It's been about a month since my avocado pitting injury and subsequent blood transfusion.

[David Remnick]

But I still don't feel great.

[John Early]

Should I consult a doctor? Honestly, this is probably going to be your baseline from now on. The balance of life is fragile, and indulgence in regional produce has its price.

[David Remnick]

Your new avocado. An faq. I hope you found that very helpful. It was written by Sarah Hutto for the New Yorker, Shouts and murmurs, and performed for the Radio Hour by comedian John Early. You're listening to the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick, and I'm here with my friend Hilton Als, who's the magazine's theater critic, but he writes about culture in all its variations, and he recently talked with an influential Filmmaker named Christine Vachon. Now, Hilton, Christine Vachon is not exactly a household name for everybody, but within the film industry, she's a very significant presence. So what's she done?

[Hilton Als]

Christine Vachon is the founder of Killer Films, which has gone on to produce incredible works such as Todd Haynes and Boys Don't Cry, which got Hilary Swank the first of her 12 Oscars. And she's done Wonderstruck, which is Todd Haynes new big, wonderful feature.

[David Remnick]

I have to tell you, I saw Boys Don't Cry years and years ago, but I still remember that story and the surprises involved.

[Hilton Als]

Oh, yeah, she was the producer and Kimberly Pierce came to her. She was covering the trial of Brandon Teena, who was a trans person who falls in love with Chloe Sevigny and unfortunately is brutally murdered by people who can't really accept who he is. It's a heartbreaking true story. And I think every kid, high school kid, should really be required to watch it. It's an extraordinary piece of work.

[David Remnick]

Hilton, you used to go, like I did, to revival houses all the time in the city. Is that where you saw. Got your film education?

[Hilton Als]

Completely. And one of the things that we started talking about right away is what it was like to go to the movies back in the day, before videos and DVDs and links and whatnot.

[Christine Vachon]

I grew up in New York City, and I grew up at a time where there were, you know, there were a lot of movie theaters for us. Really? The Olympia?

[Hilton Als]

Yes.

[Christine Vachon]

Which was, you know, on 106th Street. And it was one of those theaters that had been a big, beautiful theater that they broke into like six little, you know, cine rooms.

[Barry Blitt]

Yeah, cine rooms.

[Christine Vachon]

That's great. You know, your feet stuck to the floor. You could hear the other movie, you know, so you'd be watching like a quiet romantic comedy or something. And you hear the guns from the war.

[Hilton Als]

Guns have Navarro.

[Christine Vachon]

And we just went there every single week and watched whatever they were showing. It was a dollar. It was.

[Hilton Als]

Remember, it was a family event.

[Christine Vachon]

But you remember the days? No, we went by ourselves. Cause this was the days where 10 year olds roamed the streets.

[Hilton Als]

That's right.

[Christine Vachon]

So that's when you would go see whatever was there. And I remember if we liked something, we'd just keep going back until it was gone. You know, since we couldn't put the DVD back in the player, we would just go see the movie again. But it was just like the kids in the neighborhood.

[Hilton Als]

It was what we did in terms of growing up and thinking, I want to do x Thing one day. Were you always intent on being a filmmaker?

[Christine Vachon]

No, but I mean, I sort of. I throw this back at you a little bit. Okay. I mean, we're about the same age.

[Hilton Als]

Yes.

[Christine Vachon]

And you also grew up in New York.

[Hilton Als]

Yes.

[Christine Vachon]

So when I came back to New York after college in the early mid-80s, we weren't. I kind of feel like everybody was just sort of like, I want to be an artist.

[Hilton Als]

Yes.

[Christine Vachon]

And it was very fluid. Like, you kind of just wanted to be in the world. And people were doing film and art and music and fashion. Food wasn't such a big thing yet. Like, if it was now, they'd be like. And food. But then it was just like, food is what you ate.

[Hilton Als]

Exactly, exactly.

[Christine Vachon]

Oh, God, yes. Tofu burger at Dojos. But. So it kind of took a while to figure out that film was kind of the most interesting thing to me.

[Hilton Als]

Were you always intent on producing for others?

[Christine Vachon]

You know, I had fun making my own films, but ultimately I felt like it just wasn't. I don't know. I didn't feel. I guess at a certain point, I just. I didn't feel that same sense of urgency about directing that I did about producing. And it's a hard thing to explain to people because everyone thinks that you're a producer because you couldn't direct, you know, or you weren't good enough to direct or, you know, it's hard to explain it as a choice.

[Hilton Als]

Yes.

[Christine Vachon]

And I really did decide, like, producing is so much more about. I don't know, about having the whole picture in mind, about. Not that a director has to have that laser focus on the frame. And I just didn't think I was well suited for that.

[Hilton Als]

That's interesting. And I'm wondering about your directives in terms of moving into underground, let's say, underground features. What was the directive for you in terms of working with someone? Was it that you would really suss out their personal. What was the thing that compelled you to keep going?

[Christine Vachon]

You know, in those years? It was really the scripts, the projects themselves. Like kids, for example.

[Hilton Als]

Yeah, I remember seeing kids and being blown away by it. It was the photographer, Larry Clark's first film, I believe.

[Christine Vachon]

That's right.

[Hilton Als]

And it was really about kids in Manhattan.

[Barry Blitt]

You're telling. Jenny says, what's up?

[Christine Vachon]

It's Jenny. Who?

[Barry Blitt]

You know Jenny, man.

[David Remnick]

That pretty girl you.

[Barry Blitt]

Last summer.

[Christine Vachon]

Aw, man.

[Barry Blitt]

I haven't seen her in forever. What's she up to?

[Christine Vachon]

You know, walking that balance of having like a. You know, it was a professional team and there was A portion of the kids, not all of them, but a portion of them who really did live on the streets. And then a whole bunch of other kids who, you know, whose parents took them to the set every day or, you know, called if they weren't home on time. You know what I mean? So that was balancing that, making sure that the chaos that Larry sometimes wanted to film was not the chaos that we actually had on set.

[Hilton Als]

Right.

[Christine Vachon]

One of the hardest things about kids in some ways was when we stopped, when we finished shooting was those kids, they just were like, you know, they were so desperate. Like, they had that structure of coming to the set every day. Yes.

[Hilton Als]

And connecting.

[Christine Vachon]

And that was. I mean, some of them came to the production office for weeks afterwards just to have someplace to hang out. Well, girl, you tested negative for all sexually transmitted diseases and infections.

[Barry Blitt]

Yes.

[Christine Vachon]

You're clean. Oh, God. I can't tell you how nervous I was.

[David Remnick]

I didn't even sleep last night.

[Christine Vachon]

Well, now you have to be careful, Ruby. Okay, I want you to take these pamphlets home, and I want you to read them. And Ruby, read them. Jenny, you've tested positive for the HIV virus, but the test isn't 100% accurate. You should. I tested positive. I'm sorry, but I only had sex with telly.

[Hilton Als]

One of the things that I love about your work so much is that the film always bleeds into life with your projects, and life bleeds into the film. I mean, you're one of the first producers to ever deal with the devastation of AIDS in a real and constructive way. How did. Were filmmakers then understanding after you had done these projects that you were someone that could really hear the politics in the script?

[Christine Vachon]

I think so. I mean, I guess, you know, when I think about what did we do right after that? We did. I shot Andy Warhol, still one of my favorites.

[Hilton Als]

Yes.

[Christine Vachon]

And then, of course, Boys Don't Cry, which we didn't do for years afterwards, but Kim walked that script into our office while we were making I Shot Andy Warhol.

[Hilton Als]

Yes.

[Christine Vachon]

And then it took, I think, another seven years to actually get it.

[Hilton Als]

I remember you telling me that it was about a six to seven year project. What? Again, this idea of you. I don't want to make you sort of uncomfortable with this. You saw it before, other people saw it stuff. But the transgender issue, clearly at the heart of Boys Don't Cry is so profound.

[Christine Vachon]

Brandon, what's going on? You aren't the truth. Don't you. It. It sounds a lot more complicated than it is. Do you have any water? Cause My mom. I'm really. My voice is dry. I'm Herampodite. What? Come. It's a person who has both, girl and boy parts. Brandon's real name's Tina. Brandon. Well, see, Brandon's not quite a he. Brandon's more like a. Shut up. It's your business. Look, I don't care if you're half.

[David Remnick]

Monkey or half ape.

[Christine Vachon]

I'm getting you out of here.

[Hilton Als]

What was it that was stymying you? I've read from Larry McMurtry. You know, the gay cowboy movie took forever.

[Christine Vachon]

Right.

[Hilton Als]

Was it a similar thing of difference in this context of narrative film that still wasn't being accepted?

[Christine Vachon]

I mean, I think part of it was. It did take that long. Well, first of all, when Kim first came to us with it, the killers hadn't even gone on trial yet.

[Hilton Als]

Oh, wow.

[Christine Vachon]

And so it was kind of early days in the whole. She was fascinated by the story. And I think. I think she'd been to Nebraska, but maybe only once in the course, and she'd written a fictionalized version. Nobody was named Brandon or Lana, et cetera. In the course of the next few years, she went to Nebraska and actually sat in on the trials. So got so much more texture and understanding of who these guys were, because I think portrayal of them in the film is so nuanced. And obviously what they did was horrific, but they're not. They don't come across just as ordinary villains.

[Hilton Als]

That's right.

[Christine Vachon]

And then she got the sort of. I don't know, I want to say courage, but that sounds a little trite. She got, like, the confidence. That's really what I mean. The confidence to say, you know what? This is the Brandon Teena story. Like, I don't have to name him something else. This is about him. So then it became much more like this, based on these true events.

[Hilton Als]

What is this idea? I remember reading about queer cinema, and it's something that has always kind of amused me because I was like, well, we're all queer because the movies that Christine was making was about the world. But what was the ghettoization, verbally, of what you were doing? What was that about?

[Christine Vachon]

Well, I think so, you know, I guess in 1991 or 1992, Ruby Rich did a panel at Sundance called the New Queer Cinema. And I wasn't on the panel. In fact, I was a little irritated that I wasn't on the panel and that sort of coined the term, which immediately, the minute that term was coined, everybody was like, but, you know, I don't want to Call myself that. But I think now, when we look back on it, and I feel like there's kind of a new nostalgia for those days, especially amongst young queers who bring it up to me whenever I go and speak at colleges. But what I feel is always missing is that sense of urgency that the AIDS crisis brought and that people need to get that. You know, it wasn't this sudden, like, oh, we're here. We're queer. We're gonna make movies. It was like, if we don't tell our stories, we're gonna die and nobody's gonna hear them.

[Hilton Als]

That's right.

[Christine Vachon]

And that was a very different kind of that. In a way, I feel like the term new queer cinema has been stripped of that Barb, which I think is kind of the most critical part of it.

[Hilton Als]

I agree with you that the energy. I think that that energy is now or not wasn't replaced, but became wider because of your work. So then there was Rose Troche and a number of other women filmmaker Mary Harron, who felt that because there was a queer cinema, there could be a womanist cinema, too.

[Christine Vachon]

That's right.

[Hilton Als]

That's right. And so let's talk about those ladies for a minute and how what were the other set of difficulties or problems that in terms of selling a woman director and story?

[Christine Vachon]

Well, you know, it's funny, I considered myself an old hand at Sundance by the time I brought Go Fish there, which I think means I'd been there like three times. But I was like, I know how this works. I get this. So one of the things that really surprised me when we took Go Fish, it did remarkably well. It was bought by the Samuel Goldwyn Company. The audiences loved it. And it was there the same year as Clerks.

[Hilton Als]

Okay. The Kevin Smith film.

[Christine Vachon]

The Kevin Smith film, which was also received well, was also sold to a company, was sold to Miramax. And then, of course, Kevin was sort of immediately taken up into bigger budget filmmaking, and Rose really had to struggle. The sort of like the heroic young filmmaker coming out of Sundance worked if they were men, but if they were women, people didn't really know what to do with them. You know, Sundance itself, you know, scratches its head and says, why do these guys come? The guy and the girl come at the same time. Both have extraordinary movies that the critics love that get great deals, and then the guys are shooting stars and the girls are like crickets.

[Hilton Als]

Right. Your story is so extraordinary in a number of levels, one being, of course, that you kept getting the movie's made. And Tal, how was it with the suits with you, you know, when you would walk into that room and we have to. I think we'll probably get to some version of Weinstein later because I remember watching you with him and you were just, you were so calm and you were so focused on getting your project made that no matter how insane he was behaving, you were just, like, looking him in the eye the way one must with a crazy person.

[Christine Vachon]

Right, right.

[Hilton Als]

And you just. I watched you for years, Jess, with these guys, and we don't even have to have a name for them. They had to listen to you because you would just stand your ground.

[Christine Vachon]

You know, it was tough, and it still is tough. I feel like I still get mansplained constantly. So you just have to, like, take a deep breath and. Means to an end, you know, I say that all the time. You know, he's just a means to an end. Like, we're gonna. We're going to get this done. We're going to find our point of connection and we will figure, you know, we will figure it out.

[David Remnick]

Christine Vachon, the head of Killer Films, talking with the New Yorker's Hilton Als. Vachon is the producer of around 100 movies, including Wonderstruck, directed by Todd Haynes, which is out right now. I'm David Remnick and thanks for listening to the New Yorker Radio Hour today. I hope you'll join us next week for the writer Susan Orlean. She'll talk about her time following the trail of the skater Tonya Harding. You remember her. Her story is the subject of a new movie coming out this month. Till then, look for us on Twitter New yorkerradio.

[Narrator/Producer]

The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co production of WNYC Studios and the New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbus of Tune Yards, with additional music by Alexis Cuadrado. This episode was produced by Alex Barron, Emily Bottin, Ave Carrillo, Rhiannon Corby, Jill Duboff, Karen Frillman, David Krasnow, Sarah Nix, Michael Rayfiel, Mythali Rao and Steven Valentino, with help from Susan Morrison, Emma Allen, Emily Mann and Jessica Henderson. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Cherina Endowment Fund.