The New Yorker Radio Hour

Episode: Can Police Violence Be Curbed?

Date: June 5, 2020
Host: David Remnick
Contributors: Jelani Cobb, Ron Davis (policing veteran), Tony Williams (Minneapolis activist), Masha Gessen (journalist and author)

Brief Overview

This episode, airing amid nationwide protests following the killing of George Floyd, delves deeply into the entrenched problem of police violence in the United States. Host David Remnick introduces conversations that examine whether and how policing can be fundamentally reformed or transformed. Key perspectives include: Ron Davis, a veteran police officer and former DOJ official; Tony Williams, an activist with deep roots in Minneapolis’s anti-police violence movement; and journalist Masha Gessen, discussing the Trump administration’s autocratic tendencies in light of recent protests.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Introduction: The Moment of Crisis ([00:10])

• Remnick opens by referencing James Baldwin and setting the scene for the current national anguish over police brutality, framing George Floyd’s murder not as an aberration but as part of a long-standing pattern.

  “The cruelty, the heedlessness with which George Floyd was killed is sickening to consider… what was most appalling is that it was hardly exceptional.” – David Remnick (00:10)

Segment 1: Jelani Cobb with Ron Davis – Policing from Inside ([01:30] – [11:10])

1. Ron Davis’s Initial Reaction to the Floyd Video ([01:32] – [03:07])

• Despite decades in law enforcement, Davis was “shocked” and “disgusted” by Floyd’s killing.
• He expresses anger at collective progress being undone:

  “It put me also in a little bit of anger that we were heading in the right direction… But we allowed ourselves to get pulled back…” – Ron Davis (02:33)

• Emphasis on turning anger to action and pressing for local and state-level reforms, even if the federal government resists.

2. Is Policing Broken or Working as Designed? ([03:07] – [05:46])

• Davis asserts that the system “is working as it was intended to work,” referencing its origins in enforcing racial hierarchies.

  “It is working as it was intended to work. It is working as designed. That’s why we still have structural racism…” – Ron Davis (04:06)

• He advocates for reimagining policing from the ground up:

  “We really have to start over again. We need to go back to square one and ask ourselves, if we had to build this thing today, what would it look like?” – Ron Davis (04:49)

3. Why So Many Fatal Police Encounters? Systemic Shortcomings ([05:46] – [07:40])

• Lack of data: U.S. does not systematically track police killings.
• Need for accountability, better de-escalation, and mental health crisis response.

4. On Being a Black Police Officer ([07:40] – [10:30])

• Davis discusses the dual reality of being Black and an officer, teaching his own children to protect themselves from police.

  “I’m a black man that chose to be a cop. I can stop being a cop. I will never stop being a black man.” – Ron Davis (09:04)

• He insists on the need for “authentic diversity,” not tokenism, in police ranks.

5. Defunding and Reinvestment in Public Safety ([10:30] – [11:10])

• Davis cautiously supports “defunding” if it means reallocating resources to mental health and social services—not punishing police but reducing unnecessary police encounters.

  “It makes sense if you're going to defund and reinvest in those areas, that would reduce the need to use the police to begin with.” – Ron Davis (10:35)

Segment 2: Jelani Cobb with Tony Williams – Grassroots Alternatives and Abolition ([11:19] – [21:21])

1. The Reality of Racial Disparity in “Top 10” Minneapolis ([12:44] – [14:24])

• Williams notes the city’s publicized high quality of life is mostly true for white and privileged residents; deep racial disparities persist due to historic redlining and segregation.

2. The MPD150 Report: 150 Years of Minneapolis Policing ([14:24] – [17:36])

• The activist coalition’s report explores the department’s history of violence and the failure of reforms.

  “Everything that is rolled out in response to issues of brutality has been ineffective and or immediately opposed by the police union and rolled back.” – Tony Williams (16:18)

• Argues that policing’s origins and ongoing mission make true reform impossible.

3. What Could Replace the Police? ([17:36] – [18:52])

• Williams describes envisioning a “police-free future,” already glimpsed in certain suburban communities with low police contact.
• Calls for reallocating functions: mental health professionals for crisis calls, victim advocates for domestic violence, etc.

4. Community Concerns: Safety vs. Policing ([18:52] – [20:53])

• Jelani Cobb pushes Williams on whether abolition is truly popular in affected communities, given that some residents express a desire for more policing.
• Williams argues these are really demands for more safety, not necessarily more police; suggests investment in poverty reduction and community supports as alternatives.

Segment 3: Masha Gessen – Autocracy, Protest, and the Media ([22:39] – [37:01])

1. Trump’s “Dominate” Response and Militarization of Protest ([22:26] – [23:40])

• Discussion of the government’s aggressive tactics, invoking the Insurrection Act and deploying troops as signals of autocratic behavior.

2. The Autocratic Playbook and Weaponizing Anxiety ([24:02] – [26:19])

• Gessen draws on social psychology (Erich Fromm) to argue that autocrats exploit high societal anxiety to consolidate power.

  “Polarization and violence and high anxiety are all things that benefit an autocrat… freedom becomes so unbearable that people want to give up agency…” – Masha Gessen (24:21)

3. Media, Misinformation, and American Distrust ([26:19] – [27:50])

• Arrests and violence against journalists at protests viewed as a consequence of Trump labeling media “the enemy of the American people.”
• Even left-leaning students internalize skepticism toward the press.

4. American vs. Russian Autocracy: Personal Experiences ([32:11] – [34:35])

• Gessen recounts being fired for refusing to cover a Putin-staged event, then getting a direct call from Putin offering her job back.
• Observes both Trump and Putin see power as personal and total.

5. What Happens After Trump? ([35:09] – [37:01])

• Gessen worries that Trump may refuse to accept election results, warning of civil unrest rooted in personal grievance.

  “I think there’s a very real possibility that he will refuse to recognize the results of the election. … His supporters are absolutely prepared and will be credulous when he calls fraud if he loses.” – Masha Gessen (35:46)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Ron Davis on policing’s design: “The system is working perfectly. It is working as it was intended to work. … I was not successful in changing the basic operational systems. We really have to start over again.” (04:06)
• Ron Davis on Black identity and the uniform: “I'm a black man that chose to be a cop. I can stop being a cop. I will never stop being a black man. And they're not exclusive. They do not conflict with each other.” (09:04)
• Tony Williams on the limits of reform: “Everything… in response to issues of brutality has been ineffective and or immediately opposed by the police union and rolled back.” (16:18)
• Masha Gessen on the power of anxiety: “That kind of anxiety … can be a revolutionary opening, but it's also very likely an opportunity for the autocrat to weaponize the anxiety, to weaponize the fear, and certainly to weaponize the division.” (25:12)
• Masha Gessen on Trump and autocracy: “If Joe Biden's elected, how much of Trumpism lingers? ... I'm actually more worried about what happens on November 4th. I think there's a very real possibility that he will refuse to recognize the results of the election.” (35:46)

Timestamps for Major Segments

• 00:10 – David Remnick’s opening monologue (Context, Baldwin quote)
• 01:32 – Jelani Cobb interviews Ron Davis: initial reactions to Floyd’s death
• 03:07 – Systemic racism in policing: intended function, need for redesign
• 05:46 – Why so many fatal police encounters? Data and systemic flaws
• 07:40 – Ron Davis on being Black and a police officer
• 10:30 – Ron Davis on “defunding the police” and public safety alternatives
• 11:19 – Jelani Cobb interviews Tony Williams: lived experience in Minneapolis
• 14:24 – Tony Williams explains the MPD150 report and history
• 17:36 – What a police-free Minneapolis could look like
• 18:52 – Community safety needs vs. policing
• 22:39 – President Trump’s autocratic response to protests (with Masha Gessen)
• 24:02 – The psychology of autocracy and weaponized anxiety
• 26:19 – Arrests of journalists and growing distrust of media
• 32:11 – Gessen’s experiences with Putin; parallels with Trump
• 35:09 – Prospects for post-Trump America and risks of election unrest

Final Summary

This episode unflinchingly examines the roots and realities of police violence, grounding the discussion in both lived experience and broader historical and systemic critiques. From Ron Davis’ internal reckoning with policing’s legacy to Tony Williams’ case for abolition and reimagined safety, and finally Masha Gessen’s warnings about the fragility of democratic norms, the conversation traces the contours of a society struggling not just with its policing, but with deeper questions of power, race, and civic identity.