
Though rooted in the jazz tradition, the singer’s interests and repertoire reach across eras, languages, and continents.
Loading summary
Unknown Host
This is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co production of WNYC studios and the New Yorker.
David Remnick
This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick.
Cecile McLaurin Salvant
Don't tell me not to live Just sit and put her life's candy and the sun's a ball of butter.
David Remnick
Cecile McLaurin Salvante is a jazz singer and she's one of the top singers around today. Someone on the level of Sarah Vaughan and Ella Fitzgerald. But Salvante's repertoire and her approach to music are completely her own. A standard from the American songbook might be followed by a tune from hundreds of years ago and across an ocean. I once went to see her expecting you know how high the moon. But the first thing out of her was a century old murder ballot and it lasted about a half an hour long. Wynton Marsalis called her the kind of talent who comes along only once in a generation or 2. Cecile McLaurin Salvante is performing at jazz festivals all over the country this summer. I got a chance to talk with her last summer and she came to perform at our studio at wnyc.
Cecile McLaurin Salvant
Ooh, life is juicy, juicy. And you see I've gotta take my bite, sir. Get ready for me, love.
Sullivan Fortner
Cause I'm a comer. I've simply gotta march My heart's a drummer down. Bring around a cloud to rain on my parade.
Cecile McLaurin Salvant
I'm gonna live and live now get what I want. I know how. One roll for the whole shebang. One throw that bell will go clang. I am the target. And one gunshot and bam.
Sullivan Fortner
Hey, Mr.
Cecile McLaurin Salvant
Partner, here I am. I'll march my band out. I'll beat my drum and if I'm fanned out. Your turn at bat, sir.
Sullivan Fortner
At least I didn't fake it. Hat, sir. I guess I didn't make it. Get ready for me love. Cause I'm a comer. I've simply gotta march. My heart's a drummer.
Cecile McLaurin Salvant
Nobody, no, nobody. Is gonna rain on my po.
David Remnick
Oh, man.
Sullivan Fortner
I don't know what I did there.
David Remnick
Wow. I am so excited to have you here today. And I have gone to see you at any number of places around New York and just. And not enough. Cause every time I go, I leave so happy and so surprised by what you've decided to sting on a given night. What goes into those decisions?
Sullivan Fortner
It's very nice to hear you say that you're surprised because that's my first priority. I think I just love to be surprised in life in general by people, by the musicians I play with by myself. That's huge for me when I'm looking for songs or listening to songs. And even just as a fan of art and artists.
David Remnick
Well, this song is so associated with one singer in particular, maybe Barbra Streisand. And you take it on head on, then on another night I'll go see you. And you're singing I don't know how many verses that was. We were just discussing this before we came in. It must have been 40 verse long blues song that no one had probably heard.
Sullivan Fortner
Yeah, I think it was like a.
David Remnick
Half an hour long.
Sullivan Fortner
It was a half an hour long blues murder ballad that Jelly Roll Morton did for Library of Congress years ago.
David Remnick
Let me tell you one of the things that I've said.
Sullivan Fortner
This woman who murders her boyfriend's lover and then goes to prison. And there's a lot of profanity. And I had always wanted to sing it. So for like I sat. I sat on it for 10 years thinking, where could I ever possibly do it and who would I do it with? And then I had a Valentine's Day concert at Jazzett Lincoln center. And I thought, wouldn't that be for date night? Wouldn't that just be great?
David Remnick
So date night with a little murder involved. Yeah, Decoration Day. Well, let. Let's start from the beginning. You grew up where?
Sullivan Fortner
I grew up in Miami, Florida.
David Remnick
And what were you listening to at home? And who. Who was filling the. The home with music?
Sullivan Fortner
I was listening to whatever my mom was listening to, and she loves everything. Cesarea Evora from Cape Verde. We were listening to Yusuund from Senegal. We were listening to Los Tres Paraguayos, which is like Paraguayan folk music. We were listening to French music. We were listening to some jazz, mostly Sarah Vaughan, a little bit of Nancy Wilson, Gladys Knight, Aretha Franklin. We were listening to folk music, some bluegrass. I could go on and on. Actually, a lot of Brazilian is all.
David Remnick
Due to your mother.
Sullivan Fortner
She has a huge wide ear and she traveled a lot in her childhood. And I think she brought back those travels in some way or that traveling sort of feeling.
David Remnick
Where did she grow up?
Sullivan Fortner
She grew up in Tunisia. She lived throughout Africa. She lived in Senegal. She lived in Cuba. She lived in Dominican Republic. She lived in Honduras, in Haiti.
David Remnick
And what was the lingua franca at home? English, French, or both?
Sullivan Fortner
Franca. It was franca. It was French. It was French at home.
David Remnick
Yeah. From what I understand, in fact, from a profile in the New Yorker some years ago, there was a time when you were a kid, you thought you were going to study Law, not so.
Sullivan Fortner
Much when I was a kid. It was more after high school. I really didn't know what to do. And there was this political science prep school in this small town in France. My cousin was going. They had a law option, like first.
David Remnick
Year law in a beautiful place in Aix en Provence.
Sullivan Fortner
In Aix en Provence. And so I said, oh, why not?
David Remnick
What a good deal.
Sullivan Fortner
It was a great deal. My cousin was there. I've always liked school.
David Remnick
So off you go as a teenager to the south of France to study law, politics, history. And then something happened.
Sullivan Fortner
I always studied music alongside my other school activities. And did you play an instrument? Piano.
David Remnick
And you were playing classical, jazz, everything.
Sullivan Fortner
I guess I was playing classical, but I was not really playing much. I was not practicing. I had to be bribed every week with donuts to go to class, to go to piano class. I just didn't like it. But I did it for 15 years.
David Remnick
And singing.
Sullivan Fortner
Singing, I. It's funny, I think singing for me is. Is so social. I don't sing when I'm alone or. I sing very rarely when I'm alone.
David Remnick
Not in the shower, Not.
Sullivan Fortner
Not so much.
David Remnick
Walking down the street.
Sullivan Fortner
No, no, no. It's very social. It's very communicative. It's about being with other people and telling them a story or telling them a secret.
David Remnick
So while you're studying in France, at a certain point you start performing as a singer with a jazz quintet. How did that happen? And how did you have the skills and the nerve to do that all of a sudden?
Sullivan Fortner
It was really my teacher at the music school, Jean Francois Bonnell. I had sung for him a Sarah Vaughan song. He was adamant that I join the jazz class. I was probably the only native English speaker there, so maybe it gave me a little bit of an edge with singing these standards. And he was just like, I got us a gig. We're doing a show within, like, two months of me starting in his class. And it was in a small jazz club. It was a tiny jazz club in Aix en Provence with like five people in the audience. But it was horrifying.
David Remnick
Tell me about the first night. What'd you sing?
Sullivan Fortner
I sang It's Only a paper Moon.
Cecile McLaurin Salvant
Say it's only a paper moon, sailing over a cardboard sea.
Sullivan Fortner
I sang Body and Soul. I sang Loverman. I sang you're Just Too Marvelous for Words. In my best and most intense Ella Fitzgerald impression mixed with some Sarah Vaughn.
Cecile McLaurin Salvant
You're just too marvelous. Too marvelous for words.
David Remnick
So I get the feeling that you're at a certain point early on, you're kind of like a magpie of different styles and voices that your teacher is giving you stacks of CDs to listen to. And one week it's Sarah Vaughan week. And one week it's Ella Fitzgerald or Billie Holiday or whomever. This is all coming in as kind of information. And none of them wins out. You don't become an imitator of any one of them. Do you think?
Sullivan Fortner
I think as I go through the phase with whoever it is, I am trying to sing as best I can like them. I think that's what was happening, but I was failing. You can never really sing like that.
David Remnick
So the failing is becoming yourself.
Sullivan Fortner
The failing is becoming yourself. Yeah. And it's interesting. Like the singers that he had me listen to. Yes, there were those big ones, the famous ones. But what was more interesting was all of the music by people that are completely unknown or not celebrated enough. People like Lil Hart and Armstrong. If you're doing a Lil Hart and Armstrong imitation, no one's gonna really know because they don't know who she is, unfortunately.
David Remnick
Now, my sources tell me that the song you're going to do next is pretty radically different. It's called Can She Excuse My Wrongs?
Sullivan Fortner
Oh, I would love to talk about this.
David Remnick
I want to know everything about it. It was written by an English musician who was born in the 16th century. John Dowland. Yes, about the song.
Sullivan Fortner
The lyric is attributed to this man named Robert Devereaux. The music is John Downland, Robert Devereaux, Earl of Essex, who was Queen Elizabeth's. Elizabeth I's favorite, or one of her favorites. And it's an interesting lyric because he talks about his desire. And the desire can be read two ways as a desire for her or a desire for power. And what happened to the Earl of Essex is that he was found out in a plot against her and was then killed. I mean, like, executed by the Queen for plotting against her. And the song, basically, it's just everything is there now.
David Remnick
How did you learn about this song? Flipping around on Spotify or car radio? What?
Sullivan Fortner
I was taking lute lessons years ago. I thought that I would maybe learn a little bit of lute just for fun. And this is like a very. This is like a classic. This is a standard classic. This is Don't Rain on My parade.
David Remnick
In the 16th century.
Sullivan Fortner
In the 16th century lute.
David Remnick
That's what they were playing at the vanguard in the 16th century.
Sullivan Fortner
Exactly. Exactly.
David Remnick
Okay.
Sullivan Fortner
He says, better a thousand times to die than for to live thus still tormented, dear. But remember, it Was I who for thy sake did die contented and he does die. It's crazy.
David Remnick
Well, let's give it a go.
Sullivan Fortner
Okay. Let's see if I remember.
Cecile McLaurin Salvant
Can she excuse my wrongs with virtue's cloak? Shall I call her good when she proves unkind? Are those clear fires which vanish into smoke? Must I praise the leaves when no fruit I find no, no where shadows do forebodies stand. Thou mayst be abused if thy sight be dim Cold love is like to words written on sand or to bubbles which on the water swim. Wilt thou be thus abused, still seeing that she will right thee never if thou canst not overcome her, Thy love will be thus fruitless ever Wilt thou be thus abused, still knowing that she will write thee Never know, but remember it was I who for thy sake did die contented. Was I so base that I might not aspire unto those high joys which she holds from me as they are high, so high is my desire. If she this deny what can granted be, if she will yield to that which reason is it is reason's will that love should be just. Dear, make me happy still by granting this or cut off delays that if I die must. Better a thousand times to die than for to live the still tormented, dear but remember it was I who for thy sake did die contented. Better a thousand times to die knowing that she will write me never Dear, but remember it was I who for thy sake did die contented. Better a thousand times to die than for to live the still tormented, dear, but remember it was I who for thy sake did die contented.
Sullivan Fortner
I screwed up some lyrics. We're good.
David Remnick
Okay. This is what happens. After each song, the recriminations begin.
Sullivan Fortner
They all in the studio.
David Remnick
You screwed something up.
Sullivan Fortner
The studio always. I was. It was. It's funny enough. I was.
David Remnick
I'm speaking with the Extraordinary singer Cecile McLaren Salvant, a three time Grammy winner for Best Jazz Vocal Album. And Sullivan Fortner accompanies her on piano. Our conversation continues in just a moment. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour.
Sullivan Fortner
This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could.
David Remnick
Save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates.
Sullivan Fortner
Potential savings will vary.
David Remnick
Not available in all states or situations.
Unknown Host
The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported by Sony Pictures Classics. Presenting Jane Austen Wrecked My Life starring Camille Rutherford. A new romantic comedy about a Parisian woman who dreams of becoming a successful writer. And experiencing true love while attending a Jane Austen writer's residency in England. Jane Austen Wrecked My Life is now playing in select cities and opens nationwide May 30th. For more information and tickets, visit janeaustenwreckedmylife.com.
Alex Goldman
Hi, I'm Alex Goldman. You may know me as the host of Reply all, but I'm done with that. I'm doing something else now. I've started a new podcast called Hyperfixed. On every episode of Hyperfixed, listeners write in with their problems and I try to solve them. Some massive and life altering and some so miniscule it'll boggle your mind. No matter the problem, no matter the size, I'm here for you. That's Hyperfixed, the new podcast from Radiotopia. Find it wherever you listen to podcasts or@hyperfixpod.com.
David Remnick
This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick and I've been speaking today with the singer Cecile McLaurin Salvante. She's emerged as one of the great jazz artists of her generation. I interviewed in this room in this studio at WNYC years ago, Rhiannon Giddens. And she, to me, she does a lot of things, but she does two things at once in the sense that she's a great performer, but there's an element of her that she's also a scholar, she's a musicologist, she is an evangelist for all kinds of music. It seems to me with different music, you're doing a similar thing that Rhiannon Giddens does, is that you're introducing all kinds of things to the stage. You're not just, of course, you do standards and Broadway show tunes and things that we associate in our minds with what Sarah Vaughan did or Ella Fitzgerald. But so many other things are on your mind to give us.
Sullivan Fortner
It's funny you mention her. Rhiannon Giddens is somebody who I have to thank so much for a lot. I first heard about her through Carolina Chocolate Drops, her first band. Her first band. I learned about the banjo and what that instrument is and how it's, you know, a product of the African diaspora. I did not know. And it felt affirming in a way, as somebody who had always loved that music but thought, oh, this is just some white music that I like. Much like the grunge is white music that I like. And then realizing through her in large part that, no, this is not, this is not just white music. This is actually music that originated with black folks and with a mixture. So she she's huge to me. I actually sing one of her songs in my shows.
David Remnick
Which one is that?
Sullivan Fortner
It's called Build a House.
David Remnick
Oh, yeah.
Sullivan Fortner
I love that song.
Cecile McLaurin Salvant
You brought me here to build your house Build your house, build your house. You brought me here Build your house and grow your house.
David Remnick
But do you feel that you have that in mind, too? That there's a. That it ain't just by chance that there's. That there's a project that you're building over time of introducing certain kinds of music to your audiences, whether it's in French or it's in English.
Sullivan Fortner
I think I have the spirit of, like, a kind of a radio DJ slash curator. Like, I want. It's almost like making a mixtape for someone and only putting deep cuts. That's sort of how I feel a lot of times. If someone is to ask, oh, can you do a Cole Porter tribute? I'll be like, okay, sure, I'll do a Cole Porter tribute. But I want to find the gems that haven't been sung and sung and sung over and over again and that we might love and fall in love.
David Remnick
With and yet we began our conversation or your. You're being here with Don't Rain on My Parade.
Sullivan Fortner
Yeah. Huge, huge hit.
David Remnick
Why do you want to do something that's so familiar and so associated with one singer?
Sullivan Fortner
You know, a lot of the decisions are very intuitive, but that song, for me, is not about the fact that it's associated with Barbra Streisand. It's just such an optimistic. Kind of make him happy. And also, she's just, like, so strong in that lyric.
David Remnick
It's not enough that you sing across the centuries and so beautifully. You also write extraordinary songs.
Sullivan Fortner
Oh, thank you.
David Remnick
Tell me about the beginning of songwriting and how you went about it and what you were after.
Sullivan Fortner
I first started writing songs, well, I think as a kid, I was. I wrote one song in my own invented language with my cousin, and then.
David Remnick
Can you sing it?
Sullivan Fortner
Shamuda shamuda shamuda radi shamudaye poli kala puruku tutu tu and how old were you? Who knows?
David Remnick
Did you have a sense of what lyrics meant?
Sullivan Fortner
Maybe at the time we knew what it meant. Now I don't know what it means.
David Remnick
Lost to the mists of time.
Sullivan Fortner
Lost, yes. And I heard Abbey Lincoln. I heard an album of hers called Holy Earth, and it made me want to write.
Cecile McLaurin Salvant
Oh, the holy earth's mural seen from way up high.
Alex Goldman
Abstract.
Sullivan Fortner
The very first song I wrote, or that I remember writing is a song called Woman Child that Was the title track of my second album. And then. Yeah, Ever since then I've been writing.
David Remnick
And you're writing them with the piano? With. Not the lute.
Sullivan Fortner
Not the lute. Not yet. I'm writing with the piano.
David Remnick
Why do I have a feeling that that's coming? No, no, no, no.
Sullivan Fortner
With the piano and with a window. I like to look out a window.
David Remnick
How do you spend your days?
Sullivan Fortner
Long walk a lot of writing in the morning and then eventually get to the piano at some point. And then embroidery. A lot of embroidery.
David Remnick
It's a lot of alone time.
Sullivan Fortner
Yes.
David Remnick
And how does that inform the music?
Sullivan Fortner
Wow, that's a great question. It is very introspective music. And it is music about solitude, a lot of it about solitude, about yearning, about desire. And I think all of those feelings are clearly coming from the fact that it's so much alone time which I need.
David Remnick
I think I may be pressing my luck, but I'm hoping you'll sing Moon Song. Sure. Which is on the album Ghost Song from, I think two years ago, three years ago. Tell me about the song before we hear it.
Sullivan Fortner
It's a song I wrote about wanting to want and loving that feeling of desire and that feeling of before. Before the big thing happens. And almost not wanting the big thing to happen. Just wanting to be in that prelude of it. Because that's where all the excitement is. Being far away from the object of affection and looking at them longingly.
David Remnick
So different than a 16th century lute based song.
Sullivan Fortner
Maybe exactly the same as the 16th century. Maybe it's exactly. Kenshi, excuse my wrongs.
David Remnick
They had desire in the 16th century. Okay.
Cecile McLaurin Salvant
If you should love me don't ever tell me show it that's how I'll know it in fact, it's better not to show me it all.
David Remnick
Let me.
Cecile McLaurin Salvant
Pine, let me yearn Let me crawl Let me write you a song and long to belong to you Write you a song from a distance Let me love you like I love the moon Let me love you like I love the moon.
David Remnick
I want to thank you so much for being here.
Sullivan Fortner
Thank you. Thanks for having me.
David Remnick
This was. This was great.
Sullivan Fortner
Thanks for having both of us.
David Remnick
Cecile McLaurin Salvon joined me in the studio at WNYC in May of last year. Along with the pianist Sullivan Fortner. She's playing at the Spoleto Festival in South Carolina this week. And later this summer she'll be at the Newport Jazz Festival, the D.C. jazz Festival, Springfield Jazz and Blues, and many other venues. That's the New Yorker Radio Hour for today. Thanks for listening. See you next time.
Unknown Host
The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co production of WNYC Studios and the New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbus of Tune Yards, with additional music by Louis Mitchell. This episode was produced by Max Balton, Adam Howard, David Krasnow, Jeffrey Masters, Louis Mitchell, Jared Paul and Ursula Sommer, with guidance from Emily Botin and assistance from Michael May, David Gable, Alex Parish, Victor Guan and Alejandra Deckett. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Cherina Endowment Fund.
Alex Goldman
Hi, I'm Alex Goldman. You may know me as the host of Reply all, but I'm done with that. I'm doing something else now. I've started a new podcast called Hyperfixed. On every episode of Hyperfixed, listeners write in with their problems and I try to solve them. Some massive and life altering, and some so minuscule it'll boggle your mind. No matter the problem, no matter the size, I'm here for you. That's Hyperfixed, the new podcast from Radiotopia. Find it wherever you listen to podcasts or@hyperfixedpod.com.
Summary of "Cécile McLorin Salvant Performs Live In-Studio"
Podcast Information:
In the May 23, 2025 episode of The New Yorker Radio Hour, host David Remnick welcomes the acclaimed jazz vocalist Cécile McLorin Salvant for an intimate in-studio performance. Accompanied by pianist Sullivan Fortner, Salvant delivers a captivating blend of classic jazz standards and original compositions, showcasing her unparalleled vocal prowess and deep musicality.
The episode opens with Salvant enthralling the audience with her rendition of "Don't Tell Me Not to Live," setting a vibrant and emotive tone for the evening (00:18). Her performance is punctuated by Sullivan Fortner's delicate piano accompaniment, creating a seamless fusion of voice and instrument.
One of the standout moments is Salvant's interpretation of "Can She Excuse My Wrongs," a 16th-century lute composition originally penned by Robert Devereaux with music by John Dowland. She infuses the piece with contemporary jazz sensibilities, highlighting her ability to bridge historical and modern musical landscapes (12:40).
Another notable performance is "Moon Song," a track from her album Ghost Song, where Salvant delves into themes of desire and longing. Her nuanced delivery captures the song's introspective nature, engaging listeners with both lyrical depth and melodic elegance (24:02).
Musical Choices and Repertoire David Remnick commends Salvant for her eclectic song choices, noting her ability to surprise audiences with unexpected selections. He remarks, “Every time I go, I leave so happy and so surprised by what you've decided to sing on a given night” (03:03). Salvant explains that her primary goal is to keep both herself and her audience surprised, emphasizing the importance of spontaneity and discovery in her performances (03:25).
Influences and Early Life Salvant shares insights into her diverse musical background, influenced heavily by her mother's eclectic taste in music. Growing up in Miami, Florida, Salvant was exposed to a myriad of genres, including Sarah Vaughan, Ella Fitzgerald, Cesária Évora, and Los Tres Paraguayos. Her mother's travels across Africa and Latin America instilled in her a deep appreciation for global music traditions (05:09).
Educational Journey Originally contemplating a career in law, Salvant's path shifted during her time at a political science prep school in Aix-en-Provence, France. Her music teacher, Jean Francois Bonnell, recognized her talent and encouraged her to join the jazz class, leading to her first live performance—a daunting experience in a small jazz club with limited audience size (07:17).
Developing Her Unique Voice Salvant discusses her early attempts to emulate jazz greats like Sarah Vaughan and Ella Fitzgerald, ultimately finding her unique voice through experimentation and embracing her failures. “The failing is becoming yourself,” she reflects, underscoring the importance of authenticity in her artistry (10:35).
Creative Process Salvant delineates her songwriting process, which involves extensive introspection and a strong connection to her piano. She describes her music as “very introspective” and “about solitude,” influenced by her solitary activities like embroidery and long walks (23:34). This solitude allows her to explore themes of yearning and desire deeply.
Influences and Inspirations Highlighting the impact of artists like Rhiannon Giddens, Salvant acknowledges the importance of cultural heritage and the African diaspora in shaping her musical identity. She pays homage to Giddens by performing "Build a House," a song from her repertoire, illustrating the interconnectedness of their musical journeys (18:47).
Curatorial Approach Salvant likens her role to that of a radio DJ or curator, aiming to create a "mixtape" of deep cuts and lesser-known gems rather than mainstream hits. This approach reflects her dedication to uncovering and presenting underappreciated music, enriching her performances with layers of discovery (20:20).
David Remnick on Salvant's Talent:
“Cécile McLauren Salvante is a jazz singer and she's one of the top singers around today. Someone on the level of Sarah Vaughan and Ella Fitzgerald.” (00:24)
Salvant on Being Surprising:
“It's very nice to hear you say that you're surprised because that's my first priority.” (03:25)
Salvant on Authenticity:
“The failing is becoming yourself.” (10:35)
Salvant on Songwriting:
“It is very introspective music. And it is music about solitude, a lot of it about solitude, about yearning, about desire.” (23:36)
As the episode draws to a close, Remnick expresses his admiration for Salvant’s multifaceted talent, likening her scholarly and performative aspects to those of Rhiannon Giddens. He commends her for introducing diverse musical elements to the stage, transcending traditional jazz boundaries (18:47).
Salvant shares her excitement for upcoming performances at prestigious venues such as the Spoleto Festival in South Carolina, the Newport Jazz Festival, the D.C. Jazz Festival, and Springfield Jazz and Blues Festival, promising audiences more of her innovative and heartfelt performances (26:37).
David Remnick wraps up the episode by reiterating Salvant's status as one of the great jazz artists of her generation and highlights her ongoing contributions to the music world, ensuring listeners are eagerly anticipating her future endeavors.
Timestamp Reference:
Note: Timestamps are indicative and correspond to the transcript provided.
This episode offers a profound glimpse into Cécile McLorin Salvant's artistic journey, her dedication to musical excellence, and her unwavering commitment to authenticity and innovation in jazz. Whether through her mesmerizing performances or insightful conversations, Salvant embodies the spirit of a true musical pioneer.