Podcast Summary: The New Yorker Radio Hour

Episode: Chloé Zhao on “Hamnet,” Her Film About William Shakespeare’s Grief

Date: December 7, 2025
Host: David Remnick
Guest: Chloé Zhao (director of Hamnet)
Interviewer: Michael Shulman

Overview

This episode features filmmaker Chloé Zhao in conversation with The New Yorker’s Michael Shulman about her film Hamnet, an adaptation of Maggie O’Farrell’s novel, which imagines William Shakespeare’s life, particularly focusing on his grief over the death of his only son. Zhao discusses her creative process, working with landscape, grappling with Shakespeare as a character, her relationship to intellectual property in filmmaking, and how being neurodivergent shapes her artistry.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. How Zhao Came to Direct Hamnet

• Serendipitous Encounter with the Material (02:06–03:34)

  • Zhao admitted she initially turned down the project, feeling no personal connection to its themes (Elizabethan England, Shakespeare’s family).
  • Meeting Paul Mescal, who plays Shakespeare in the film, changed her mind:

    “I sat next to the creek with him, and I just felt something about him...a simmering discomfort in him like an animal...like a Steppenwolf. Just want to burst out. And that’s why he creates.” (Chloé Zhao, 02:56)

  • Mescal urged her to read the book, insisting, “It’s not what you think it is.”

• Connecting with Maggie O’Farrell’s Writing (03:44–04:39)

  • Zhao was struck by the novel’s “internal landscape” and emotional rhythm.

    “[O’Farrell] writes, has a heartbeat to it that is very similar to mine...her favorite filmmaker is Wong Kar Wai, which is the person whose work that made me want to make films many, many years ago.” (Chloé Zhao, 04:02–04:39)

2. The Natural World—Place, Grief, and Inspiration

• Nature as a Cinematic Character (05:21–07:46)
  • Zhao connects her filmmaking to a deep fear of death, seeking solace and spirituality in natural settings:

    “When you’re afraid to die, you’re actually not able to live fully...when you go into nature...you develop a very embodied spirituality that’s not relied on anyone else telling you.” (Chloé Zhao, 05:30–06:41)

  • Contrasts between youthful restlessness (expansive westerns) and her 40s (the stillness and introspection of the forest).

    “The forest is deeply feminine…It makes you stay still. And when you stay still, you have nowhere to go but into the underworld and into yourself where all your shadows are.” (Chloé Zhao, 07:22)

• Aesthetic and Emotional Influence of the Forest (07:56–10:03)
  • A moving account of visiting Welsh forests juxtaposed emotionally with images of Ukraine’s war-torn frontlines.
  • The image of “the void” (black holes in the landscape) becomes a recurring visual and existential motif:

    “I sat next to the void, this black void, because it’s coming for all of us. And also in that void, the compost new life comes...” (Chloé Zhao, 09:03)

  • Nature was considered a department head on the film, guiding its visual language.

3. Reimagining Shakespeare On Screen

• A Different Portrait of Shakespeare (13:00–14:40)

  • Zhao approached Shakespeare without “the burden” of reverence common in Western cultures, focusing instead on the universality of his grief and repression.

    “I didn’t come feeling that he’s any different than a man who fell in love with a woman and couldn’t quite express his feelings...” (Chloé Zhao, 13:36)

  • She credits Paul Mescal with infusing Shakespeare with authenticity and emotional struggle rather than eloquence.

• Shakespeare’s Language—Beyond Words (16:51–18:08)

  • Zhao, non-native in English, relates to Shakespeare through feeling rather than technical understanding:

    “If Shakespeare is performed right, you don’t have to understand what they’re saying. You feel it in the body. The language is written like that.” (Chloé Zhao relaying Paul Mescal, 17:28)

  • The emotional reactions of herself and the cinematographer, neither fluent in English, became a barometer for successful takes.

4. Working with Intellectual Property (IP) and Industry Trends

• Navigating Hollywood’s Franchise Obsession (19:09–21:17)
  • Zhao recognizes that adaptations are now dominant due to Hollywood’s need for “safe bets.”
  • She is launching Kodansha Studios in partnership with major Japanese manga publisher Kodansha to adapt manga IP, aiming for authentic, artist-driven collaborations.

    “I’ve always dreamt to be a bridge between the east and the west and to be able to create a safe and nurturing garden...for international filmmakers, writer directors and Japanese senseis, manga artists, authors, to come together” (Chloé Zhao, 20:13–21:17)

• Personal Roots in Fan Fiction (22:00–22:49)
  • Zhao reveals she got her start as a fan fiction writer in China, defending adaptation:

    “Original is misunderstood ... original actually means going back to the source...Nature, everything goes back to the source. So I don’t mind working with IP, it’s just how we do it.” (Chloé Zhao, 22:13–22:49)

5. Neurodivergence and Directing

• Living and Directing as a Neurodivergent Artist (22:49–25:20)
  • Zhao shares her experience being diagnosed as neurodivergent and how it influences her work and creative environment.

    “The fact that I’m good at some things, right, is my sensitivity, my intuition, my ability to process information...my brain takes in so much more information than the person next to me.” (Chloé Zhao, 23:22–24:38)

  • She discusses the challenges of overstimulation on set and during events (“a really strong perfume can give me a shutdown”—24:57) and how understanding her neurodiversity has helped her process both limitations and strengths.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Grief and Nature:

  “In Hamlet he wrote, ‘all living things must die, passing through nature to eternity.’ And to me that eternity is love.” (Chloé Zhao, 09:03)

• On Shakespeare as a Character:

  “I find a lot of artists, male artists, get into expressing themselves in their arts because they never felt safe to express their emotions in real life in our society.” (Chloé Zhao, 14:40)

• On Adaptation and Originality:

  “I started my writing career as a fan fiction writer...I think the word original is misunderstood...Original actually means going back to the source.” (Chloé Zhao, 22:00–22:13)

• On Neurodivergence and Filmmaking:

  “So I need time to process that information. And if I don’t process it and more are coming in, then I could shut down and implode or just have massive, you know, meltdowns.” (Chloé Zhao, 24:38)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 02:06 — How Zhao first heard about Hamnet and her initial reluctance
• 03:44 — Why O’Farrell’s novel resonated and fit Zhao’s creative sensibility
• 05:21 — Nature, fear of death, and the role of landscape in Zhao’s work
• 09:03 — Discovery of the “void” motif; nature guiding film language
• 13:00 — Zhao’s novel approach to writing Shakespeare
• 16:51 — Discussing language and embodiment in Shakespearean performance
• 19:09 — Industry trends: adapting IP and Zhao’s Kodansha Studios announcement
• 22:49 — How neurodivergence shapes Zhao’s creative work

Tone and Style

Chloé Zhao is candid, introspective, poetic, and unsentimental, readily exploring her vulnerabilities and philosophical outlook on art. The conversation is warm, thoughtful, and sprinkled with humor and self-deprecation, especially regarding her experiences as an outsider to both Western culture and the film industry’s franchise machinery.

For Further Reading

Find Justin Chang’s review of Hamnet and more at NewYorker.com.

Summary prepared for listeners and non-listeners alike, capturing the episode’s richness, emotional texture, and Chloé Zhao’s original voice.