Chloé Zhao on “Hamnet,” Her Film About William Shakespeare’s Grief

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The New Yorker Radio Hour

Episode: Chloé Zhao on “Hamnet,” Her Film About William Shakespeare’s Grief

Date: December 7, 2025
Host: David Remnick
Guest: Chloé Zhao (director of Hamnet)
Interviewer: Michael Shulman

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Overview

This episode features filmmaker Chloé Zhao in conversation with The New Yorker’s Michael Shulman about her film Hamnet, an adaptation of Maggie O’Farrell’s novel, which imagines William Shakespeare’s life, particularly focusing on his grief over the death of his only son. Zhao discusses her creative process, working with landscape, grappling with Shakespeare as a character, her relationship to intellectual property in filmmaking, and how being neurodivergent shapes her artistry.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. How Zhao Came to Direct Hamnet

• Serendipitous Encounter with the Material (02:06–03:34)

  • Zhao admitted she initially turned down the project, feeling no personal connection to its themes (Elizabethan England, Shakespeare’s family).
  • Meeting Paul Mescal, who plays Shakespeare in the film, changed her mind:

    “I sat next to the creek with him, and I just felt something about him...a simmering discomfort in him like an animal...like a Steppenwolf. Just want to burst out. And that’s why he creates.” (Chloé Zhao, 02:56)

  • Mescal urged her to read the book, insisting, “It’s not what you think it is.”

• Connecting with Maggie O’Farrell’s Writing (03:44–04:39)

  • Zhao was struck by the novel’s “internal landscape” and emotional rhythm.

    “[O’Farrell] writes, has a heartbeat to it that is very similar to mine...her favorite filmmaker is Wong Kar Wai, which is the person whose work that made me want to make films many, many years ago.” (Chloé Zhao, 04:02–04:39)

2. The Natural World—Place, Grief, and Inspiration

• Nature as a Cinematic Character (05:21–07:46)
  • Zhao connects her filmmaking to a deep fear of death, seeking solace and spirituality in natural settings:

    “When you’re afraid to die, you’re actually not able to live fully...when you go into nature...you develop a very embodied spirituality that’s not relied on anyone else telling you.” (Chloé Zhao, 05:30–06:41)

  • Contrasts between youthful restlessness (expansive westerns) and her 40s (the stillness and introspection of the forest).

    “The forest is deeply feminine…It makes you stay still. And when you stay still, you have nowhere to go but into the underworld and into yourself where all your shadows are.” (Chloé Zhao, 07:22)

• Aesthetic and Emotional Influence of the Forest (07:56–10:03)
  • A moving account of visiting Welsh forests juxtaposed emotionally with images of Ukraine’s war-torn frontlines.
  • The image of “the void” (black holes in the landscape) becomes a recurring visual and existential motif:

    “I sat next to the void, this black void, because it’s coming for all of us. And also in that void, the compost new life comes...” (Chloé Zhao, 09:03)

  • Nature was considered a department head on the film, guiding its visual language.

3. Reimagining Shakespeare On Screen

• A Different Portrait of Shakespeare (13:00–14:40)

  • Zhao approached Shakespeare without “the burden” of reverence common in Western cultures, focusing instead on the universality of his grief and repression.

    “I didn’t come feeling that he’s any different than a man who fell in love with a woman and couldn’t quite express his feelings...” (Chloé Zhao, 13:36)

  • She credits Paul Mescal with infusing Shakespeare with authenticity and emotional struggle rather than eloquence.

• Shakespeare’s Language—Beyond Words (16:51–18:08)

  • Zhao, non-native in English, relates to Shakespeare through feeling rather than technical understanding:

    “If Shakespeare is performed right, you don’t have to understand what they’re saying. You feel it in the body. The language is written like that.” (Chloé Zhao relaying Paul Mescal, 17:28)

  • The emotional reactions of herself and the cinematographer, neither fluent in English, became a barometer for successful takes.

4. Working with Intellectual Property (IP) and Industry Trends

• Navigating Hollywood’s Franchise Obsession (19:09–21:17)
  • Zhao recognizes that adaptations are now dominant due to Hollywood’s need for “safe bets.”
  • She is launching Kodansha Studios in partnership with major Japanese manga publisher Kodansha to adapt manga IP, aiming for authentic, artist-driven collaborations.

    “I’ve always dreamt to be a bridge between the east and the west and to be able to create a safe and nurturing garden...for international filmmakers, writer directors and Japanese senseis, manga artists, authors, to come together” (Chloé Zhao, 20:13–21:17)

• Personal Roots in Fan Fiction (22:00–22:49)
  • Zhao reveals she got her start as a fan fiction writer in China, defending adaptation:

    “Original is misunderstood ... original actually means going back to the source...Nature, everything goes back to the source. So I don’t mind working with IP, it’s just how we do it.” (Chloé Zhao, 22:13–22:49)

5. Neurodivergence and Directing

• Living and Directing as a Neurodivergent Artist (22:49–25:20)
  • Zhao shares her experience being diagnosed as neurodivergent and how it influences her work and creative environment.

    “The fact that I’m good at some things, right, is my sensitivity, my intuition, my ability to process information...my brain takes in so much more information than the person next to me.” (Chloé Zhao, 23:22–24:38)

  • She discusses the challenges of overstimulation on set and during events (“a really strong perfume can give me a shutdown”—24:57) and how understanding her neurodiversity has helped her process both limitations and strengths.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Grief and Nature:

  “In Hamlet he wrote, ‘all living things must die, passing through nature to eternity.’ And to me that eternity is love.” (Chloé Zhao, 09:03)

• On Shakespeare as a Character:

  “I find a lot of artists, male artists, get into expressing themselves in their arts because they never felt safe to express their emotions in real life in our society.” (Chloé Zhao, 14:40)

• On Adaptation and Originality:

  “I started my writing career as a fan fiction writer...I think the word original is misunderstood...Original actually means going back to the source.” (Chloé Zhao, 22:00–22:13)

• On Neurodivergence and Filmmaking:

  “So I need time to process that information. And if I don’t process it and more are coming in, then I could shut down and implode or just have massive, you know, meltdowns.” (Chloé Zhao, 24:38)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 02:06 — How Zhao first heard about Hamnet and her initial reluctance
• 03:44 — Why O’Farrell’s novel resonated and fit Zhao’s creative sensibility
• 05:21 — Nature, fear of death, and the role of landscape in Zhao’s work
• 09:03 — Discovery of the “void” motif; nature guiding film language
• 13:00 — Zhao’s novel approach to writing Shakespeare
• 16:51 — Discussing language and embodiment in Shakespearean performance
• 19:09 — Industry trends: adapting IP and Zhao’s Kodansha Studios announcement
• 22:49 — How neurodivergence shapes Zhao’s creative work

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Tone and Style

Chloé Zhao is candid, introspective, poetic, and unsentimental, readily exploring her vulnerabilities and philosophical outlook on art. The conversation is warm, thoughtful, and sprinkled with humor and self-deprecation, especially regarding her experiences as an outsider to both Western culture and the film industry’s franchise machinery.

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For Further Reading

Find Justin Chang’s review of Hamnet and more at NewYorker.com.

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Summary prepared for listeners and non-listeners alike, capturing the episode’s richness, emotional texture, and Chloé Zhao’s original voice.

Transcript

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[David Remnick]

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. Chloe Zhao was only the second woman to win the Oscar for Best Director, and that was for her 2020 film Nomadland, which starred Frances McDormand as an itinerant worker. Chloe Zhao is 43, and she's had a varied career, ranging from low budget contemporary Westerns to making a Marvel film called Eternals, which is a supernatural epic with a colossal budget. Now Zhao has taken another distinct turn to Hamnet, a story about the creative life and the family life of William Shakespeare. Based on a novel by Maggie o', Farrell, Zhao's film is about Shakespeare as a young man grieving the loss of his only son. It stars Paul Mescal and Jesse Buckley. Chloe Zhao spoke with our staff writer, Michael Shulman, who covers film and entertainment for the New Yorker.

[Michael Shulman]

So how did this book and how did this project make its way to you?

[Chloe Zhao]

I was driving through New Mexico to Telluride Film Festival, and then that's when Amberlynn called me and told me about this project, Amblyn, meaning Amblyn, Spielberg's.

[Michael Shulman]

Spielberg's production company.

[Chloe Zhao]

And when they, they said it over the phone, you know, the reception.

If you haven't been to the Four Corners, not great. So it's in and out and they're saying, you know, it's about Shakespeare's wife and the death of their son. And I just thought, there's so many things in that sentence that I have no personal connection to. So I said no. And then a few hours later, I met Paul Metzkoff for the first time. I didn't know who he was because I had not Seen normal people. His career has changed a lot in a short amount of time.

[Michael Shulman]

Yes.

[Chloe Zhao]

But I sat next to the creek with him, and I just felt something about him. You know, there's something about him. There's a simmering discomfort in him like an animal, you know, like a Steppenwolf. Just want to burst out. And that's why he creates. So the energy was really strong. And he's talking about. Oh, I asked him, would you ever consider playing young Shakespeare? And he said, wait, are you talking about Hamnet? I love the book so much. You have to read the book. It's not what you think it is. Please read the book.

[Michael Shulman]

So what about the book, when you read it, made you feel like you were the right person to do it? Were there details in the novel that really spoke to you?

[Chloe Zhao]

When I read the book, I thought the internal landscape was so beautifully described. That is my. That usually I have to really get to know, say, Brady from the writer. I had to get to know him for such a long period of time. Would I understand his internal landscape so then I can externalize it on screen so the audience isn't just relying on him verbally. Right. But Maggie already done that work for all the characters. So I thought, that's my blueprint. And also, there's a rhythm to the way she writes, has a heartbeat to it that is very similar to mine. I found out later that her favorite filmmaker is Wong Kar Wai, which is the person whose work that made me want to make films many, many years ago. So there was that similarity as well.

[Michael Shulman]

I mean, there's also an external landscape in the film that is so.

And you're a filmmaker who shoots the Natural world beautifully. Anyone who's seen your first three features were all or in part set in the American west and South Dakota specifically. Hamnet is set in Elizabethan England, and you shot in Wales and Herefordshire.

[Chloe Zhao]

Yeah.

[Michael Shulman]

I'm curious about.

What you got from that very different kind of natural landscape. As you were thinking about the film.

[Chloe Zhao]

The Natural World. The reason why it has been such a big part of every film I've done is because.

I can now, in my 40s, look back at my career and say, the reason why that is is because I have always had a deep fear of death. And I think that drives my creativity. And when you are afraid to die, you are actually not able to live fully. And I know that deep inside at night, when the light goes off, you know, phone shuts off, I'm lying there. I know I'm not living my Life fully. And it's because I'm so terrified I don't feel safe in this world. And.

Also my instinctual human self knows that when you go into nature, if you have a relationship with nature, then you develop a very embodied spirituality that is not relied on anyone else telling you. Right. It's an embodied safety that you feel within oneness and that you can only find in nature when you become one with your surroundings. That's all of our great prophets goes into nature to come back with the message for a reason. And so I just knew that's part of working on my own shit.

[WNYC Studios Announcer]

To.

[Chloe Zhao]

Get myself into nature. And the second part of to. To answer that question is that in my 30s, I was much more like a pioneer, like an going west, going into, like finding treasures. I wanted to go as wide as possible, chasing horizon after horizon so I can come back with the treasures. The camera's insatiable. It wants to capture everything. And I want to move. I'm always on the move. And then in my 40s, after midlife crisis, I realized that I can't keep running from myself.

And in the forest.

It'S the opposite of the plains. And the forest is deeply feminine. And it makes you stay still. And when you stay still, you have nowhere to go but into the underworld and into yourself, where all your shadows are. So I Knew in my 40s, this is the right place, right kind of nature for me to dive deep in.

And.

When it comes to the forest in Wales, in terms of inspiration.

When I first visited that forest with my cinematographer Lukash, we wanted to go to find a language for the film or just let the forest tell us what the film is about beyond what we read in the book. And I was in Kyiv right before that, and I was with somebody who was making a documentary about a strip of forest in the front line. And when I went to. When I left Kyiv and went to Wales, and it was this beautiful spring forest that we were in, me and Lukash was at. And I was getting some images and footage from the front line in Ukraine. And I will see these dark holes, black holes in the ground. And some of them, they're lime mines holes, sometimes they're dugouts. And then I walk around our forest and I would see these black holes that are natural made black holes. I had such a big emotional reaction to it, I start crying. I sat next to the void, this black void, because it's coming for all of us.

And also in that void, the compost new life comes in this hole here. And the one in that front line, new life will come and there's hope. In Hamlet he wrote, all living things must die, passing through nature to eternity. And to me that eternity is love. And so then my Polish DP runs over and look at the hole and go, I understand this, we must film this hole. And then he filmed the hole and we had Max Richter's Sleep album playing and then he started lifting up at some point the tripod and then it went up to the sky and then we just started, it went up and down, up and down. Ah, this is what the film is about, right? So nature, we consider nature an hod, a department head, is constantly working with us.

[David Remnick]

Director Chloe Zhao speaking with Michael Shulman. More in a moment.

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[Michael Shulman]

Today, Alaska is a state at the forefront of our nation's issues. It's a place where climate change is undeniably altered. These villages have been completely devastated. Resource development and international relations are local issues.

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It's a disgrace to see that Putin's.

[Michael Shulman]

On this land right now and fat bears are celebrities.

[Chloe Zhao]

I just started joining every fat bear.

[Michael Shulman]

Group that I could find. Catch the latest top Stories from the 49th state on Alaska News Nightly every weeknight, wherever you get your podcasts [e-mail].

So one of your main characters is William Shakespeare. I know the William Shakespeare played beautifully by Paul Mescal. And you know, this is not the witty, hyperverbal Shakespeare of Shakespeare love. He's actually a man of pretty few words. He's brooding, he's frustrated. As you and Maggie were writing the screenplay, how did you approach just the challenge of writing lines for William Shakespeare?

[Chloe Zhao]

I think the reason why the producers and also Maggie chose me is because I don't feel that way about William Shakespeare. I don't have the same reverence. I do have reverence intellectually, but I don't have the burden on my shoulders as many people in the west do. Maybe the same as I am with, you know, cowboys or Westerns. Right. I watched only 2 1/2 Westerns when I made the Writer, so. But I watched more afterwards because I fell in love with it and it's the same. I'm probably going to be doing more Shakespeare related things after this. But I didn't come feeling that he's any different than a man who fell in love with a woman and couldn't quite express his feelings. So I never. The pressure is on the actors. It's on Paul, who does have a lot of reverence in the sense that not only will we put him through not only playing William Shakespeare, but also telling the story of Orpheus, Eurydice as William Shakespeare.

And to answer your question, he's very different than in the book. Actually, Maggie reminded me a couple weeks ago when she was here, she's like, do you remember that? You see in the book, he's quite talkative, he's expressive, you know, an actor. And I guess that was me. I guess I made a decision to change his character because I find a lot of artists, male artists.

Get into expressing themselves in their arts because they never felt safe to express their emotions in real life in our society.

What are you looking at?

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You. Why?

[Chloe Zhao]

I thought you were a man of words. Master tutorial. As a, you know, as a little boy, they're told to toughen up or, you know, there's no space for your emotions because mom is crying, you know, my sister is crying. So I was raised by men like that I've loved and beloved by Men like that my whole life. So it just became natural for me. And Paul as well was part of that decision as well. Like watching him. There's. There's him in this character as well. And I can only work that way because moment by moment, I need to feel love towards this character, and I need to feel like I understand him and there's a part of me that is like him. I feel safe in my fantasy world on set. Then I can deal with emotional situations in life. So Paul was under a lot of pressure because we don't talk about who this character is. We start shooting and find him. So that's day three when we did the Orpheus scene, you know, scene where he goes, I don't.

Talking to people is difficult for me. And then she said, tell me a story. We did that whole thing on day three. And many, many takes. Usually I don't do that many takes just for him to find who is William Shakespeare speaking. One of the greatest myths to a woman he fell in love with. That very loaded.

[Michael Shulman]

Yes. And then at one point, he actually bursts forth with the to be or not to be speech.

[Chloe Zhao]

That's also pressure on Paul. Yes.

[Michael Shulman]

So I know you went to school in England as a teenager. Were you taught Shakespeare there? Was that your first encounter with sort of his actual text?

[Chloe Zhao]

Well, I didn't speak English. So when you don't speak English and you have Romeo and Juliet in front of you in the equivalence of a ninth grade.

Still, when I was on set of Hamnet, when Paul was delivering his speech, I only understand a third of it technically, because I just don't understand what those words mean. But at the beginning, Paul has said to me, look, I can study it and translate every word and understand what it all means. But Poe said to me, listen.

If Shakespeare is performed right, you don't have to understand what they're saying. You feel it in the body. The language is written like that. And so in a way, me and Lukasz, who also doesn't speak much English, we sat there and we watched Paul's performance. And in a way, we kind of embody Agnes, who doesn't quite understand everything, but we feel it. So in those days in the Globe, I'm judging by me and Lukas, physical reaction, we start crying or we go, oh, you know, our throat is tight, our stomach turns. Then we know.

It'S the right take. We didn't even have to understand every word, which is really magical. It's making me think about Shakespeare completely different.

[Michael Shulman]

I mean, I think that's true for Anyone watching Shakespeare?

I believe you just wrapped directing the pilot of the Buffy the Vampire Slayer revival. So you're back working on a franchise with a very intense fandom, which I'm.

[Chloe Zhao]

Also one of them.

[Michael Shulman]

Sure, that helps. But I'm curious, as you move forward in your career, how do you see your relationship with the franchise driven part of Hollywood? You know, I think it's. From what I can tell, it's only getting harder and harder to make a movie that isn't based on something connected to some form of ip. And yet you've done both. You're continuing to do both. I mean, you could call Hamnet Hamnet William Shakespeare IP in some way, but you know, it's a. I thought about.

[Chloe Zhao]

His sellability when I signed up.

Both Maggie's book and him. It's pretty strong ip. We're dealing with your.

[Michael Shulman]

Right. So how do you see yourself fitting into the industry that is now so IP driven?

[Chloe Zhao]

Why do you think that is?

[Michael Shulman]

Because people want safe bets. It's hard to make money.

[Chloe Zhao]

Yeah.

[Michael Shulman]

On a film.

[Chloe Zhao]

Yeah. You know, I just launched, I just made announcement. Me and my producing partner, Nick Ganda, we teamed up with Kodansha, which is the oldest and one of the largest manga publishing house in Japan. And they have everything from Akira to Ghost in the Shell to Attack on Titan, you know, their Sailor Moon. We just team up with them to launch Kodansha Studios which means that we will be developing live action adaptations of their IP in house before it goes to the studios.

[Michael Shulman]

Tell me more about manga.

[Chloe Zhao]

Manga is quite different than western comics, particularly American comics. Manga is heavily influenced by Shintoism, Japanese Shintoism and if you don't know what that is, it's believing that every object has a spirit. Right. Like this glass has a spirit within itself. There has been quite complicated relationship between studios licensing Japanese IP and it's particularly manga ip and the adaptation process has been quite complicated for years and years and years now. So I've always dreamt to be a bridge between the east and the west and to be able to create a safe and nurturing garden in a way for international filmmakers, writer directors and Japanese senseis, manga artists, authors, to come together and to at early stage.

Allow the artists to really see each other. Like why did this artist create this story in Japan? You know, what is really the core of it? And then spiritually, emotionally, and then to find the right filmmaker and then can allow them to work together to develop the screenplay until the little, you know, the shoots of the plants are strong enough and then we Go to our studio partners. I think that's, I guess, one of my place in the IP world. I think adapting from IP is beautiful. I started my writing career as a fan fiction writer.

[Michael Shulman]

Oh, really?

[Chloe Zhao]

In China. Pretty well known one too. But you never know because I will never share with you my pen name. But I don't mind. I think the word original is misunderstood in modern world because origo means the source. It means old, the beginning. So original actually means going back to the source. Yeah, but in. But our modern culture is so obsessed with new things. Must have new things. It's a very masculine dominated way of looking at the world. Must have new things all the time. But nature, everything goes back to the source. So I don't mind working with ip, it's just how we do it. Needs to be, I think, could be healthier, more wholesome. Yeah.

[Michael Shulman]

The last thing I want to ask you about is you've described yourself as deeply neurodivergent and you've talked about how you become overstimulated and kind of shut down. You know, a director on a set has to deal with so much, so many people, departments, questions, images.

So how does that challenge you on a movie set? And how does it.

Help you on a movie set?

[Chloe Zhao]

Good question. See, I didn't know, you know, I didn't have my official diagnosis until this year. So in the past I always wondered, maybe I'm just billed wrong. Something is off with me. And I mean, going to premieres or press, they, you know, promoting the film is even harder because the amount of exposure, you know, going to an awards show or things like that. And so you. I feel a lot of shame around. Why can't I enjoy it? You know, like the people around me could be. And then once I have some language around it, it's very empowering, I go, okay, so the fact that I'm good at some things, right, is my sensitivity, my intuition, my ability to process information, my pattern recognizing skills. I can watch people and find patterns and I can pretty much predict what they're going to do in a scene. All those things I understand is because my brain takes in so much more information than the person next to me. So I need time to process that information.

And if I don't process it and more are coming in, then I could shut down and implode or just have massive, you know, meltdowns. So since then. And also a really strong perfume can give me a shutdown.

[Michael Shulman]

Really?

[Chloe Zhao]

Yeah. If someone's worrying, if going through the airport, I go, you know, that's tough.

[Michael Shulman]

Okay. So you won't be working in Smell o Vision.

[Chloe Zhao]

No, but I love, you know, anything with that's natural from the natural world is fine. It's the chemical in the perfume that is overwhelming. Like cleaning products, air fresheners, things like that.

[Michael Shulman]

Well, you are very likely headed on the road to the Academy Awards again. So I hope that they are. That no one is wearing very strong perfume at them.

[Chloe Zhao]

But that's, that's lost cause. It's okay.

[Michael Shulman]

And congratulations on Hamnet.

[Chloe Zhao]

Thank you.

[Michael Shulman]

It's a really beautiful movie.

[Justin Wines Sponsor]

Thank you.

[Chloe Zhao]

Thank you.

[David Remnick]

The New Yorker's Michael Shulman speaking with director Chloe Zhao. You can find Justin Chang's review of HamNet@New Yorker.com and of course, you can subscribe to the New Yorker there as well. New yorker.com I'm David Remnick and that's our show for this week. Thanks for joining us. See you next time.

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