Director Ari Aster Explains His COVID-Era Western “Eddington”

Summary

The New Yorker Radio Hour: Director Ari Aster Explains His COVID-Era Western “Eddington”

Release Date: July 22, 2025
Host: Kimberly Adams
Guest: Ari Aster, Director of "Eddington"

---

Introduction to "Eddington" and Its Themes

In this episode of The New Yorker Radio Hour, director Ari Aster delves into his latest film, "Eddington," a contemporary Western set in a fictional Southwestern community grappling with the aftermath of the COVID-19 pandemic and rampant conspiracy theories. Aster, known for his intense and anxiety-inducing horror films like Hereditary and Midsommar, takes a bold turn by infusing his signature style with sharp political satire.

Kimberly Adams introduces the film:
"Eddington stars Joaquin Phoenix and Emma Stone, and it's like a hand grenade tossed into the traditional summer movie season. It is unapologetically political, but the satire doesn't spare either side of the aisle."
[03:14]

Satire and Contemporary Relevance

Aster discusses his intention to craft a satirical narrative that mirrors the current societal climate. He emphasizes the difficulty of addressing present events in filmmaking, noting,
"It's hard to make a film about COVID because we haven't metabolized any of that. We're still living through it."
[03:59]
He chose satire as a vehicle to explore the fragmented perceptions of reality in today's polarized environment, aiming to keep his stance understated until the film's conclusion.

Origins and Development of the Script

Aster reveals that the foundation of "Eddington" dates back to an earlier script written before his breakout success. However, the events of 2020 reignited his interest, leading him to rework the story amidst the heightened tensions of the pandemic and social unrest.
"I was writing it in a state of anxiety and dread, which I think is the prevailing mood of not just the moment, but for like the last 10 years."
[06:03]

Influences and Comparisons to Other Films

Drawing parallels to iconic films, Aster cites Robert Altman's Nashville and Spike Lee's Do the Right Thing as inspirations for their ensemble casts and portrayal of societal tensions.
"Do the Right Thing is just one of the great works of art... we're all kind of struggling on the wrong end of puppet strings."
[07:57]
He appreciates how these films encapsulate the chaos and complexity of American society, serving as a blueprint for his own storytelling approach in "Eddington."

Exploring Conspiracy Theory Culture

Aster addresses the proliferation of conspiracy theories in contemporary discourse, linking it to the film's themes.
"I feel like Eddington is a film about a bunch of people who really care about the world. They all know that something's wrong. They just... nobody can agree on what that thing is."
[10:34]
He expresses concern over the mainstream acceptance of extremist ideologies and the erosion of shared reality, which he portrays through his characters' conflicting beliefs and mistrust.

Setting the Story in the Southwest

Choosing the Southwest, particularly New Mexico, as the backdrop, Aster leverages his personal connection to the region to infuse authenticity into the narrative.
"New Mexico is already a really interesting microcosm for the country. It's a blue state, but most of the small towns are red."
[19:55]
He highlights the state's cultural diversity and underlying racial tensions, making it an ideal setting to explore the film's multifaceted conflicts.

Collaboration with Joaquin Phoenix

Aster speaks highly of his working relationship with Joaquin Phoenix, who reprises his role as Sheriff Joe Cross from their previous collaboration in Beau Is Afraid.
"Joaquin and I both are very neurotic, and we are serious about what we're doing. He really likes to talk through things a lot, which is useful for going over the script."
[21:01]
Their collaborative dynamic allows for deep character development and ensures that Phoenix's portrayal remains nuanced and authentic.

Anticipating Audience Reception

Addressing the film's potential to polarize audiences, Aster acknowledges the current climate's sensitivity but remains steadfast in his creative vision.
"The film is about polarization and the reception has been polarized, but that feels natural to me."
[24:30]
He hopes that "Eddington" will foster a sense of shared experience and solidarity among viewers, despite differing perspectives.

Reflections on Society and Art

Aster concludes by expressing his desire for art to confront and process contemporary issues.
"If anything, I just made the movie that I kind of wanted to see. We're living in that atmosphere... our neighbor is not our real enemy."
[25:19]
He envisions "Eddington" as both a reflection and a commentary on the societal fractures exacerbated by recent events, aiming to provoke thought and dialogue among audiences.

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Notable Quotes

• Ari Aster at [03:59]: "It's hard to make a film about COVID because we haven't metabolized any of that. We're still living through it."

• Ari Aster at [06:03]: "I was writing it in a state of anxiety and dread, which I think is the prevailing mood of not just the moment, but for like the last 10 years."

• Ari Aster at [10:34]: "Eddington is a film about a bunch of people who really care about the world. They all know that something's wrong. They just... nobody can agree on what that thing is."

• Ari Aster at [24:30]: "The film is about polarization and the reception has been polarized, but that feels natural to me."

• Ari Aster at [25:19]: "We're living in that atmosphere... our neighbor is not our real enemy."

---

Conclusion

Ari Aster's "Eddington" emerges as a bold cinematic endeavor that seeks to encapsulate the tumultuous spirit of the early 2020s. Through its satirical lens and ensemble cast, the film challenges viewers to confront the pervasive anxiety, conspiracy theories, and deep-seated polarizations that define the current American landscape. Aster's thoughtful exploration of these themes, combined with his collaboration with Joaquin Phoenix, positions "Eddington" as a significant cultural artifact reflective of its time.

Transcript

[David Remnick]

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[Ari Aster]

This.

[David Remnick]

Is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co production of WNYC Studios and the New Yorker.

[Adam Howard]

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. The big question of this Trump administration over and over again has been can they really do that? Can they reinterpret the 14th amendment? Can they ignore district court rulings? Dismantle the Education Department? Revoke Rosie o' Donnell's citizensh? All of us have questions about the administration and its legal challenges and how the courts are ruling on them. So to answer your questions, the New Yorker's legal experts will join us here on the program. Constitutional scholar Jeannie Sook Gerson and columnist Ruth Marcus. Please send us your questions about Trump and the courts to new yorkerradionyc.org Ruth Marcus and Jeanne Sook Gerson will join me and will address as many of your questions as as we possibly can. Again, that's New Yorker Radio. One word New Yorkerradio nyc.org and tell us where you're writing from, too. I look forward to hearing from you. We all remember the spring and summer of 2020, whether we like it or not. There was the COVID pandemic and all its losses and a reckoning with racial violence that led to some of the biggest protests in our and there was also one of the most contentious presidential election races in our time. So some might prefer to forget that period. And yet it turns out to be bottomless material for a filmmaker named Ari Aster in the horror movies Hereditary in Midsommar and the more iconoclastic Beau is Afraid. Astor is relentless about putting his characters and his audience in a state of anxiety. Cringe doesn't begin to describe it. Esther's latest film is Eddington, which is set in a fictional Southwestern community, a place roiled by Covid and conspiracy theories. So maybe I just talked to your video.

[Ari Aster]

Ask where all your deputies went. Okay, well, why don't I just ask your governor about her little catch and release policy, okay? Because if it wasn't for that, maybe I could hold on to my deputies and the people we arrest.

[Jason Adam Katzenstein]

I know, I know.

[Ari Aster]

One of them was fired for excessive force and another one was forced to quit by a YouTube First Amendment auditor? Yes, that is the same auditor that.

[Jason Adam Katzenstein]

Drove away your work.

[Kimberly Adams]

Your undershirt died with fentanyl over from.

[Ari Aster]

Handling fentanyl, and your captain and your chief deputy took jobs in Rio Rancho. That was devastating.

[Adam Howard]

Eddington stars Joaquin Phoenix and Emma Stone, and it's like a hand grenade tossed into the traditional summer movie season. It is unapologetically political, but the satire, it doesn't spare either side of the aisle. Our producer Adam Howard, sat down with Ari Aster, who wrote and directed Eddington.

[Kimberly Adams]

I think one of the things I'm impressed by is just your willingness to sort of take a big swing and do something contemporary. A lot of the big blockbusters you see nowadays could take place in any time, any universe, even a movie I really admired, like Sinners, it speaks to modern politics. But from the vantage point of a period film. Why do you think more filmmakers aren't more willing to sort of touch the hot stove of the here and now?

[Ari Aster]

Well, I think it's really hard to talk about the moment because nobody really understands what's happening. And, you know, it's hard to make a film about COVID because we haven't metabolized any of that. I mean, I don't feel we've metabolized how seismic that was, but we're also still living through it. We're still in it. And I do think that a big part of the culture right now is looking to the past, and there's a lot of nostalgia, and then there's a lot of talk about trauma, but it's all about looking back while we're ignoring the present and, you know, and we're not even talking about the future because I don't think we believe in it. But I think that has a lot to do with the fact that the people leading us don't believe in the future. I've been asked, you know, to describe what the film is about in one sentence, and my answer to that was, it's about a hyperscale data center being built just outside of a small town. And the film begins with the promise of a data center being built that is tied to AI. And not to give away too much of a spoiler, but we end on that. There's a way of looking at all the stories in the movie Eddington as training data. The movie Eddington is training data for whatever this thing is that's coming, which, you know, I didn't ask for.

[Kimberly Adams]

Right, right.

[Ari Aster]

I don't know if you did, but.

[Kimberly Adams]

No. No. So all of your movies have a sense of humor But I think it's fair to say that Eddington is your funniest. And when I went to see the movie, I had an experience I don't think I've ever had before, where at the beginning of the movie, and this is not spoiling anything, there's a title announcing when the film takes place that it's May of 2020. And that immediately got a huge laugh from the audience I was in. And I was like, oh, that's really cool that we're all kind of collectively acknowledging that sort of gut punch of like, yep, I remember that. And I'm ready, you know, buckle up. Was your approach always gonna be satirical?

[Ari Aster]

Yeah, well, yes, it was always going to be satire. But I also wanted it to be inscrutable. You know, I wanted whatever my position is in all of this to be maybe veiled for as long as I could. I think at the end of the film, it becomes pretty clear where I stand. But I wanted to make a film that was kind of pulling back and describing the structure of reality at the moment, which is that nobody can agree on what is real.

[Kimberly Adams]

Right. My understanding is that some version of this script has existed for some time. Is that right?

[Ari Aster]

Well, I had written a sort of contemporary Western that was set in New Mexico. I'm from New Mexico. A long time ago, long before I made Hereditary. Right after I left school, I wasn't able to get it made and I lost interest in it. And then in late May, early June 2020, I found myself in New Mexico near family. And I wanted to get down on paper. What was in the air? Everything had kind of reached a boiling point. The fever of 2020 lockdown had kind of reached its highest pitch. And I wasn't sure what was going to happen, you know, whether it was going to explode, whether it was going to boil over. I was writing it in a state of anxiety and dread, which I think is that's sort of the prevailing mood of not just the moment, but for like the last 10 years, the framework of a contemporary Western suddenly felt really appropriate for this. And so I kind of went back to the structure of that old script. But everything else was, you know, kind of written from scratch when I was.

[Kimberly Adams]

Watching it, I guess. Cause you're juggling so many interesting characters. I was sort of thinking a little bit about the work of Robert Altman a little bit. And then when it was over, the movie that came to mind for me was do the Right Thing. Because it's just so many incredibly fully realized, funny, lived in characters, like the World is very recognizable, but there is this sort of ratcheting tension. I wonder what you make of that comp. And then also if sort of similar to that film, you sort of were very intentionally trying to do something topical and get in people's faces a little bit with this movie.

[Ari Aster]

Yeah, well, when you mention Altman, I'm sure you're maybe referring to, like, Nashville 100%.

[Jason Adam Katzenstein]

Yeah.

[Ari Aster]

Which is one of my favorite films, and I think mine too. And I think one of the great films about America as like a circus.

[Kimberly Adams]

It's been hard work, but every time we get into a fix, let's think of what our children face into.

[Ari Aster]

Aught stuff.

[Kimberly Adams]

Seven, six.

[Ari Aster]

It's up to us to pave the.

[Kimberly Adams]

Way with our blood and sweat and tears for we must be doing something right to last 200 years.

[Ari Aster]

So certainly that film was on my mind. But do the Right Thing, you know, is just one of the great works of art. Hey, hey, Sal, how come you got.

[Kimberly Adams]

No brothers up on the wall here?

[Adam Howard]

You want brothers on the wall?

[Ari Aster]

Get your own place. You can do what you want. And I will say that it was a reference for me early on when I was giving the script to people. But this is my pizzeria. American Italians on a wall only. Yeah, that might be fine, Sal, but you own this. Rarely do I see any American Italians eating in here. All I see is black folks. So since we spend much money here, we do have some say. But, you know, the tongue is slightly in the cheek there, especially because it's set in a town with very few black people in a state with very few black people.

[Kimberly Adams]

Right, right. So just to go back to your earlier point about sort of the differing perceptions of reality right now, one of the most unsettling things about the moment we're in is what people are willing to believe in. You got QAnon and replacement theory. The President of the United States is sharing memes that his predecessor might be a. And the conversation we're having right now, of course, is happening amidst a time where the Jeffrey Epstein story has sort of resurged into the public consciousness. So I wonder if you could speak a little bit about how you feel about conspiracy theory culture and why it's such a center of this particular film.

[Ari Aster]

Right. And with the Epstein stuff, you know, the snake is now starting eating its own tail. Yeah. It really scares me that all these things have come into the mainstream, including Nazism. It's really alarming. And I wanted to make a film where kind of everybody is, in a way, a conspiracy Theorist, you know, you were asking about references or films that might be on my mind. And one was jfk, which I think is a really interesting film because it's kind of a rat king of different conspiracy theories that don't have a lot to do with each other. Some of them contradict other. And so it's been like widely discredited. But I find the film to be really not only fascinating, but important for the way that it captures the fever and the mania of conspiracy thinking. Oswald, Ruby, Cuba, the Mafia. Keeps them guessing like some kind of parlor game. Prevents them from asking the most important question. Why? Why was Kennedy killed? Who benefited? Who has the power to cover it up? Who? And I feel like all of us in America now, we're kind of living in that atmosphere, the atmosphere of jfk, right? We're all the only ones who see what's actually happening. I feel that Eddington is a film about a bunch of people who really care about the world. And they all know that something's wrong. They just. Nobody can agree on what that thing is. And they're all looking at the world through these strange windows that are distorted and they distrust anything that falls outside of their bubble of certainty. So it's a film about what happens when these people living in different realities start bumping against each other.

[Kimberly Adams]

You said you wrote this in a sort of state of anxiety and fear. Do you feel more fearful now since the creation of this film, this whole process? Or is there anything you're feeling optimistic about? Or do you feel like we're actually going downhill?

[Ari Aster]

That feeling of dread has only grown more intense. For me. It feels like we are on a very dangerous path. And it feels like to me, like at the very end of this path is a brick wall. But we're only accelerating. And if there's anything maybe hopeful in the film, it's that it is a period piece, right? And so maybe there's some opportunity in seeing the way we were. And maybe that can give us some clearer picture of where we are, right? And a path that we're on. I mean, the film is also a western and it's a genre film and it's meant to be fun.

[Kimberly Adams]

Well, in spite of that, I don't need to tell you we live in a very politically polarized moment. And I imagine there's gonna be, whether you want it to or not, people are gonna sort of latch onto whatever they wanna take politically from this film. So there'll be people who feel like it's too one sided and there'll be Others who will say it's not one sided enough. Have you steeled yourself for that discourse and are you sort of comfortable wading into that stuff?

[Ari Aster]

Yeah, I mean, look, I also made this film in 2024 before the election, right. And I've never made a film that kind of changes day to day so much. But I'm definitely aware of the critics of the film and I feel like, you know, most of them come at the film for not taking enough of a stance or not being partisan enough. But that's not what the film is about. And to me, that would have been way too narrow. The film is about the environment. And if I did make a partisan film, that would have only reached the choir that it was preaching to and that just. I don't even see the point in it at this point. I'm most concerned right now with the fact that we're all kind of unreachable to each other.

[Kimberly Adams]

But just going back to Covid, Covid is this thing that, to your point, we've just so assiduously avoided Reckoning with a million people died, you would never know it. Sometimes it's something that I think people are consciously trying to avoid. So how do you make that the center of a movie and get people to buy tickets on a summer day and say, you could go see Superman, but come watch this movie to revisit like a very painful chapter in American.

[Ari Aster]

Well, I mean, we all went through it and I don't know, I'm personally like desperate for art that at least attempts to grapple with whatever the hell is going on right now. So if anything, I just made the movie that I kind of wanted to see. But Covid, I think, was a really huge inflection point. I don't think it was the advent of anything. I think we had been living in something for a long time, but it was the moment at which I think the last to whatever that old world was was cut.

[Adam Howard]

Ari Aster speaking with the Radio Hour's Adam Howard. More in a moment.

[David Remnick]

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[Madeline Barron]

I'm Kimberly Adams, co host of Make Me Smart, a podcast from Marketplace that makes today make sense. Each weekday we break down the headlines, from the latest Trump executive order to the rising cost of starter homes. We help you understand what's happening and how it impacts your life. Join us so we can make sense of it all together, because none of us is as smart as all of us. Listen to Make Me Smart wherever you get your podcasts.

[Kimberly Adams]

Beyond Covid, this movie delves into the George Floyd protests and the sort of movement around that. I happen to be a black American, and for me, and I think a lot of other black Americans, that period was very fraught because there was sort of a sense that we're having conversations that are good to have, but the lack of actual tangible progress during and after. And now we're kind of living in the midst of a backlash to a lot of that. I wonder if you could talk a little bit about your perspective on that whole moment.

[Ari Aster]

I was amazed at the power and momentum of that movement. Yeah, I haven't seen anything like it since, and I hadn't seen anything like it in so long. And I think one of the things that allowed that to happen was the fact that people's public lives had kind of shut down completely. But the film is doing something kind of tricky, which is that we're largely tied to the perspective of like a conservative white sheriff who's played by Joaquin Phoenix. Played by Joaquin Phoenix, who is something of a libertarian. And so we are receiving the news of George Floyd's murder through his eyes. Yeah, through his eyes. And he's getting the spin that he's getting. Meanwhile, he's living in a tiny town in New Mexico that has very few black people he works with a black person, but this is all very abstract to him. And even the kids who are being activated in town, it's abstract to them, and some of them are much more sincere in their efforts, and some are just looking for community. And this is a bandwagon that they're jumping on. And so, again, the challenge here was for me to pull back as far as I could and just give as broad a picture of the landscape at that moment as possible.

[Kimberly Adams]

I'm curious why you thought the Southwest was sort of an ideal setting for this particular story, and how did you use your own experience growing up there to sort of infuse the film with some authenticity?

[Ari Aster]

Well, you know, it's the region that I know best, and I've always wanted to make a film set in New Mexico. New Mexico is already a really interesting microcosm for the country. It's a blue state, but most of the small towns are red. And, you know, there's a long history of racial resentment, and there are just so many cultures that never really intersect, or they do only in the most superficial way. Superficial ways. And I was especially aware of that when I was a little kid, just in school. And it felt exciting to me to make an ensemble film in New Mexico where you're covering as many bases as you can and kind of including as many voices in the cacophony as possible without neglecting to, you know, tell a coherent story.

[Kimberly Adams]

This is your second collaboration with Joaquin Phoenix in a row. I'd love to hear more about what your working relationship with him is like, what makes him such a unique actor for this kind of project.

[Ari Aster]

Yeah, well, Joaquin and I worked together once on Beau Is Afraid, and that was a really good experience. I think we both have a lot in common. We're both kind of nuts, and we're very neurotic, and we are serious about what we're doing. And he's somebody who really likes to talk through things a lot, and I have found that that is a really useful process for me, just going over the script, and he'll have a lot of questions, and. And the purpose is never to answer those questions, I've learned, but rather to find what the more activating questions are and find a way to preserve those and keep those going so that on the day of shooting, those are still alive. Whenever anything becomes rote or, like, figured out, for him, it's dead. And this was an interesting process because his character, Joe Cross, was kind of inspired by somebody I had met in New Mexico when I was rewriting the script, when I was polishing it, I flew back out to New Mexico. I drove around the state. I went to different counties and talked to different sheriffs. I went to small towns, talked to mayors, police chiefs, public officials. I went to pueblos just trying to get as broad a picture of the state. And I met a few really interesting people. One of them was this sheriff of a vast county, but very small population. And I flew out there again with Joaquin cause I wanted him to meet him. And we drove around with the sheriff for a couple days. And Joaquin's wardrobe in the film, his look, his stance was, you know, kind of modeled on this guy.

[Kimberly Adams]

What was it about him that was so striking to you?

[Ari Aster]

It's kind of ineffable. It's hard to say. He was a big personality. He is a 70 year old or so man who used to be a cop in Albuquerque, but it was too violent for him. And so he came out to this county and ran for a sheriff. He had a feud, a long running feud with the mayor of the biggest town in his county.

[Kimberly Adams]

Which is similar to a plot point in the film.

[Ari Aster]

Yeah, exactly. With Joaquin and Pedro Pascal's character.

[Kimberly Adams]

Is he aware that this character is going to be somewhat loosely inspired by him?

[Ari Aster]

He even showed up to consult on a few days and so he saw that Joaquin was dressed like him.

[Kimberly Adams]

How do you feel about that?

[Ari Aster]

I think he was thrilled.

[Kimberly Adams]

Yeah. Has he seen the finished movie yet?

[Ari Aster]

Not yet, but I'm curious to hear what he thinks.

[Kimberly Adams]

Yeah. Do you read reviews of your films or do you sort of tune that.

[Ari Aster]

Stuff out every time? I promise I'm not going to. And then I relent. No, it's, you know, I find that it can be really harmful. So there's always a point at which I have to stop. But you know, you spend so long making a film and then you want to know how it's being received. I tend to get the temperature and you know, there are filmmakers who claim to not look at that stuff at all. And I think that's probably bullshit. I can't imagine not even having any idea peeking.

[Kimberly Adams]

Yeah. One of the reasons I wanted to ask is that, as I'm sure you know, some of the reviews have sort of alluded to this movie being polarizing or divisive and that being potentially your intent.

[Ari Aster]

Well, the film is about polarization and the reception has been polarized, but that feels natural to me. And it's not like I set out to do that. Like, yeah, with this one, I'm gonna make something really divisive but while we were in the edit, my editor Luke Johnston and I would, you know, say, yeah, this is gonna. It would usually be at points in the film where we'd be like, okay, yeah, this is where we're gonna lose people potentially. But to me, excising all those things would have made the film just nothing, you know, and so you gotta listen to the movie and do what's right for the movie. I mean, the worst thing that could happen for a movie like this is meh.

[Kimberly Adams]

Or everybody loves it or.

[Ari Aster]

Yeah, I mean, even everybody loves it. Something would be wrong. And I don't know how that would even be possible anymore in this landscape. But it honestly, it feels right. My concern is that I don't know how much of a hunger people have anymore for anything controversial or challenging. So what I want is for people to go out and see it. I do hope that the film is funny and it's a western. I hope it's rousing. It becomes an action film by the end, kind of an absurd one. I hope that there can be some sort of bizarre solidarity in sitting in a theater with a bunch of people and recognizing the insanity of the moment and just the fact that we're all kind of struggling on the wrong end of puppet strings and you know, that our neighbor is not our real enemy.

[Kimberly Adams]

Thank you so much for coming in and for having this conversation with me. It's been great to talk to you.

[Ari Aster]

Thank you for having me.

[Adam Howard]

Director Ari Aster speaking with the Radio Hour's Adam Howard. His new film Eddington is opening in theaters nationwide and you can read Justin Chang and Richard Brody on the movies@new yorker.com and you can always subscribe to the magazine there as well. New yorker.com I'm David Remnick. Thanks for joining us this week. See you next time.

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