Podcast Summary: The New Yorker Radio Hour
Episode: Elaine Pagels on “The Historical Mystery of Jesus”
Host: David Remnick
Guest: Elaine Pagels, Professor of Religion at Princeton
Date: December 30, 2025
Overview
This episode features a deep, personal, and scholarly conversation between David Remnick and renowned scholar Elaine Pagels about the evolution of Christian narratives, the historical figure of Jesus, and enduring questions about faith, belief, miracles, and grief. Pagels, celebrated for her groundbreaking work on the Gnostic Gospels and early Christianity, speaks candidly about her intellectual journey, personal loss, and engagement with the enduring “historical mystery” surrounding Jesus.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
Elaine Pagels’ Early Encounter with Faith and Loss
- Pagels describes her upbringing in a non-religious, scientific family, with religion barely on her radar.
- As a teenager, she attended a Billy Graham crusade, experiencing a brief but powerful evangelical conversion.
- “You get invited to be born again and have a new family and start your life over. And I thought, that's great.” (Pagels, 02:34)
- Her experience soured after her evangelical church told her a Jewish friend who had died would be in hell.
- “I just felt like I'd been socked in the stomach. And I just walked out. I never went back.” (Pagels, 04:56)
- The loss of her child and husband deepened her questions about the usefulness and nature of faith:
- “I found that in times of grief, the church has little to say. It's just too remote.” (Remnick quoting Pagels, 01:30)
Transition to Religious Scholarship
- Pagels distinguishes her scholarly curiosity from conventional faith:
- “At that time, I didn't think of my work as a relationship with faith exactly. It was more a relationship with curiosity.” (Pagels, 02:04)
- She was drawn into religious scholarship by the transformative, imaginative aspect of faith experiences—even ones she ultimately left behind.
- “It opened up elements of my experience that nothing else did.” (Pagels, 05:31)
- Describes faith as “opening up the imagination,” comparing it to the wonder of The Wizard of Oz (06:01).
Jesus as Myth and History
- Pagels reflects on initially perceiving Jesus as a mythological figure, not a historical one.
- “I didn't think of him as a real person. I thought of some grand mythological drama going on in the sky.” (Pagels, 07:44)
- She discusses the standardized four Gospels and the exclusion of others (so-called Gnostic Gospels):
- “We knew there were far more than four, but four became part of a canon, which means a standard.” (Pagels, 09:13)
- The canonized Gospels contain narrative, while others were often just sayings—private teachings to disciples (Pagels, 09:55–10:58).
- Gnostic texts were considered heretical partly because “you can't confirm what's said” (Pagels, 11:01).
Miraculous Narratives & the Immaculate Conception
- Discussion of the controversies around the virgin birth and Jesus’ parentage.
- Only two of the four canonical Gospels mention the virgin birth; earliest sources do not.
- “The earliest account we have doesn't say that at all. ... There's no father of Jesus. It's clear that the neighbors think that he might have been an illegitimate child.” (Pagels, 12:52)
- Elaine explores possible historical explanations, including the presence of Roman soldiers near Nazareth and the cultural assumptions about sexual assault during times of occupation (15:20).
Miracles, Myth, and Modernity
- Comparing ancient and modern receptivity to miracles:
- “I would say less inclined now, yes, because ... all great men were somehow also credited to have a divine being somewhere in their genealogy.” (Pagels, 16:49–17:27)
The Nature of Belief and Practice
- Pagels separates religious belief from religious practice and communal identity:
- “I really think belief is far overrated.” (Pagels, 18:36)
- In Judaism and Buddhism, practice and participation are more central than doctrinal belief (18:42–19:41).
- She identifies as “sort of” Christian by heritage, but also deeply drawn to other traditions, including Buddhist meditation groups.
- “Jesus seems like he was a historical person, but he's not just that. There are myths woven into the stories ... not just a history at all.” (Pagels, 20:13)
Death, Grief, and the Invisible World
- On the afterlife:
- “I don't know. I don't know. It leads me to at least have an open question.” (Pagels, 21:15)
- Engages with Tanya Lerman’s idea that practice and openness, rather than belief, are central to experiencing the divine or transcendent (21:50–22:52).
- Shares a profound personal experience after her husband’s death:
- She felt she could “ask” her late husband a question during deep meditation, and received an internal response:
- “A voice came into my head, not auditory. This is fine with me. It's you I think about now. ... But who said that? ... It seemed like my husband's voice.” (Pagels, 24:19–25:34)
- She felt she could “ask” her late husband a question during deep meditation, and received an internal response:
- On prayer and meditation:
- “Sometimes, yes [I pray], but not usually a lot of words. Meditate, maybe.” (Pagels, 25:41)
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On the emotional gap left by organized religion in grief:
“I found that in times of grief, the church has little to say. It's just too remote.”
(Remnick quoting Pagels, 01:30) -
On transformative religious experience:
“I did feel like the sky opened up. ... It was like something happened.”
(Pagels, 03:59) -
On exclusion from evangelical church:
“Well, then he's in hell. And I just felt like I'd been socked in the stomach. And I just walked out. I never went back.”
(Pagels, 04:56) -
On why explore Christian origins:
“There was something transformative about it [conversion] and it was important. Like it opened up elements of my experience that nothing else did.”
(Pagels, 05:31) -
On canon formation:
“We knew there were far more than four, but four became part of a canon, which means a standard.”
(Pagels, 09:13) -
On personal religious orientation:
“I would say Christian. I love that tradition in some ways. And Jesus seems like he was a historical person, but he's not just that.”
(Pagels, 19:56–20:13) -
On belief vs. practice:
“I really think belief is far overrated.”
(Pagels, 18:36) -
On the possibility of the afterlife and the invisible:
“I have a sense that what we think of as the invisible world has deep realities to it that are quite unfathomable.”
(Pagels, 21:31) -
On mystical experience during mourning:
“I thought I could. Suddenly, after we meditated for an hour, I had the idea that I could ask my husband a question. ... And a voice came into my head ... It seemed like my husband's voice.”
(Pagels, 24:19–25:34)
Important Timestamps
- Elaine Pagels on personal loss and faith – 02:04–04:58
- Evangelical conversion and departure – 02:34–04:58
- Imagination and the power of myth – 06:01–07:44
- Gnostic Gospels & canon formation – 09:01–11:01
- Virgin Birth controversy & historical context – 12:52–16:37
- On belief, religious practice, and identity – 18:36–20:13
- Afterlife and the invisible world – 21:09–22:52
- Personal mystical experience after loss – 24:19–25:34
Conclusion
This thoughtful conversation traverses personal, historical, and theological terrain. Pagels invites listeners to reconsider the boundaries between faith, imagination, scholarship, practice, and mystery. Her own experiences—intellectual, emotional, mystical—bring fresh illumination to the enduring questions about Jesus, belief, and what it means to deeply engage with traditions both old and new.