The New Yorker Radio Hour: Elaine Pagels on the Mysteries of Jesus

Podcast Information:

• Title: The New Yorker Radio Hour
• Host: David Remnick
• Guest: Elaine Pagels, Professor of Religion at Princeton University
• Episode: Elaine Pagels on the Mysteries of Jesus
• Release Date: April 1, 2025

Introduction

In this thought-provoking episode of The New Yorker Radio Hour, host David Remnick engages in an in-depth conversation with Elaine Pagels, a renowned scholar of early Christianity and bestselling author. Pagels, celebrated for her works such as The Gnostic Gospels and The Origin of Satan, discusses her latest book, Miracles and the Historical Mystery of Jesus. This dialogue delves into the historical controversies of Christianity, the development of the New Testament canon, and Pagels' personal journey through faith and loss.

Elaine Pagels’ Personal Journey and Scholarly Pursuit

Pagels’ Early Life and Brief Conversion: Pagels opens up about her fleeting experience with evangelical Christianity during her teenage years. Recalling a pivotal moment:

• "Billy Graham was powerful and the whole event was extraordinary... I felt like the sky opened up." [03:17]

However, this experience was short-lived. The evangelical church's rigid stance during her family's tragedy pushed her away:

• "They said, 'then he's in hell.' And I just felt like I'd been socked in the stomach. And I just walked out. I never went back." [05:12]

Transition to Scholarship: Despite abandoning organized faith, Pagels found herself drawn to the mysteries of religion, particularly Christianity's lesser-known narratives. She explains:

• "There was something transformative about [her conversion]... So I decided I wanted to find out, how does that work?" [05:47]

This curiosity led her to explore the historical and cultural underpinnings of religious beliefs, shaping her academic focus.

Exploration of Early Christianity and Gnostic Texts

Understanding the Canon vs. Gnostic Gospels: Pagels elucidates the distinction between the canonical gospels and the Gnostic texts, emphasizing why the former were chosen over the latter:

• "I think they became the canon because they talk about actual narratives of the life and death of Jesus of Nazareth... These other gospels consist of sayings, just teachings which are different from those in the New Testament." [10:07]

She further clarifies that the Gnostic Gospels were deemed heretical because they presented alternative teachings:

• "They claim to give private teaching that he gave secretly to certain disciples... They will lead you astray." [11:14]

Historical Context and Scholarly Debates: Pagels discusses the early church's efforts to standardize Christian doctrine by selecting specific texts, often dismissing others as heretical without substantial examination:

• "They will lead you astray. So we knew there were far more than four, but four became part of a canon." [10:10]

Miracles and the Historical Mystery of Jesus

Controversies Surrounding Immaculate Conception: Pagels delves into the historical and scholarly debates surrounding the virgin birth of Jesus, highlighting its contentious nature even within Catholic academia:

• "The claim that Jesus was spiritually conceived in some way is a stunning claim... The earliest account we have doesn't say that at all." [12:56]

She references Raymond Brown's critical review, which dismissed the Gnostic texts:

• "He wrote that these texts were rubbish in the first century. They're still rubbish." [15:03]

Historical Evidence vs. Faith Claims: Pagels challenges the traditional narratives by presenting historical evidence that contradicts the virgin birth story:

• "There's no man ever mentioned in her life. There's no father of Jesus. It's clear that the neighbors think that he might have been an illegitimate child." [13:50]

She counters assertions about Roman soldiers in Nazareth, providing historical context to refute claims of Jesus being the son of a Roman soldier:

• "Those soldiers were stationed there after they burned the entire city down and enslaved the inhabitants... Any young person who'd spent time with a Roman soldier was assumed to have been sexually assaulted." [15:23]

Faith, Belief, and Personal Reflections

Redefining Faith Beyond Belief: Pagels offers a nuanced perspective on faith, distancing it from mere belief systems:

• "I really think belief is far overrated." [18:40]

She emphasizes the importance of practices and rituals over doctrinal beliefs:

• "In Judaism, the point is... are you orthodox, are you secular, are you reform... in Buddhism, it's about the prayers, it's about participation in certain rituals." [19:22]

Personal Engagement with Spirituality: Despite her academic stance, Pagels shares her ongoing engagement with spiritual practices across various traditions:

• "I find it compelling in many ways... I'm engaged with some friends in New York in a Buddhist meditation group." [19:48]

Experiences with Loss and Spiritual Encounters

Navigating Grief and Spiritual Searches: Pagels recounts the profound impact of personal tragedies on her spiritual outlook. After the sudden death of her husband, she sought solace in meditation and experienced what she describes as a spiritual encounter:

• "I thought I heard a voice saying to me... It seemed like my husband's voice." [25:03]

This experience led her to remain open to the possibility of realities beyond the visible world:

• "What we think of as the invisible world has deep realities to it that are quite unfathomable." [21:19]

Open Questions About the Afterlife: Pagels maintains an open stance on what happens after death, influenced by both scholarly inquiry and personal experiences:

• "I don't know. It leads me to at least have an open question... Maybe there's something else." [21:19]

Conclusion

In this enlightening episode, Elaine Pagels intertwines her scholarly expertise with personal narratives, offering listeners a rich exploration of early Christianity's complexities and enduring mysteries. Her candid discussions about faith, belief, and the historical underpinnings of Christian narratives provide a compelling invitation to reconsider long-held assumptions about religious texts and experiences.

Notable Quotes:

• "I found that in times of grief, the church has little to say. It's just too remote." — Elaine Pagels [00:21]
• "Belief isn't really the point so much in Judaism... It's about the prayers, it's about participation in certain rituals." — Elaine Pagels [19:22]
• "I really think belief is far overrated." — Elaine Pagels [18:40]

This summary encapsulates the essence of the conversation between David Remnick and Elaine Pagels, highlighting the key themes and insights shared during the episode. For those interested in the intersections of history, religion, and personal experience, this episode offers a profound and enriching listen.