The New Yorker Radio Hour

Episode 57: Zadie Smith and Conservatives Strike Back
Date: November 18, 2016
Host: David Remnick
Guests: David Frum, Zadie Smith, Dr. Africa Stewart, Sarah Stillman, David Haglund

Overview

This episode, hosted by David Remnick, brings together prominent thinkers and storytellers to explore the upheaval in American politics following the 2016 presidential election, a deep dive into Zadie Smith's new novel and the contemporary state of fiction, and an on-the-ground look at the realities of the refugee crisis through an MSF (Doctors Without Borders) simulation. The episode is rich with reflection on identity, institutions, literature, and the responsibilities of elites and citizens alike.

Key Segments and Discussion Points

1. The Conservative Response to Trump: David Frum Interview

Timestamps: 00:28–15:16

The State of the Republican Party and Frum’s Perspective

• David Remnick opens by contextualizing the political turmoil in Washington after Trump’s victory, focusing on conservative intellectuals’ discomfort.
• David Frum, a leading conservative thinker and former Bush speechwriter, articulates his conflicted response to Trump (01:57–05:31):
  • Initially “Trump curious” due to Trump’s working-class economic focus and cautious stance on immigration.
  • Ultimately, Frum’s concerns with Trump’s character outweighed policy alignments.
  • “The problem with Trump is that Trump's own character and personality and deficiencies overwhelmed some of the more interesting and promising things that he talked about.” (David Frum, 01:57)
• Frum explains his “painful” decision to vote for Hillary Clinton, believing the rule of law and democratic institutions were at stake (04:06–05:31).

Conservative Intelligentsia and Trump

• Remnick brings up the lack of traditional conservative support on mainstream panels (05:31–06:51).
• Frum observes that political actors “jump on bandwagons,” and even those initially opposed to Trump are quickly making their peace with his victory.

Elites, Responsibility, and Political Identity

• Frum discusses being labeled an “elitist,” acknowledging his privileges but stressing that “the job of those people then is to realize their privileges and then to be extra responsible” (07:12–08:23).
• He criticizes both right and left elites, arguing elites must act responsibly rather than deny their privilege.

Trump, Corruption, and Institutional Dangers

• Frum warns about potential abuses of power regarding Trump’s business interests:
  • “The worst case scenario is the Department of Justice no longer works the way a first world Department of Justice is supposed to work. It will be used for protecting the President's interests and those of his friends from investigation.” (Frum, 10:04)
• He stresses that “the very worst thing that Trump will do or could do in his first year… he’s already done… to raise a question about whether the U.S. commitment to defend NATO partners will be honored.” (10:34)

Russia’s Role and U.S. Institutions

• Frum is particularly alarmed at the “very clear probability that Russian intelligence directly manipulated an American election… They had an impact on the election… probably enough to put their preferred candidate over the top, and the rest of us have to live with the consequences.” (Frum, 12:11)

On Resistance and the Role of Citizens

• Frum concludes with a call to defend institutions: “We have a common stake in rules of the game, and those are the things that are in danger in this Trump presidency. And those are the things you have to rally to defend. We absolutely have the capacity to protect them. And so shame on us if we don't.” (Frum, 14:25)

2. A Bit of Holiday Satire: Cranberry Sauce Speaks

Timestamps: 15:56–18:47

• Comic piece voiced by Shiraka Dunlap (written by Will Stephen) gives voice to cranberry sauce, humorously lamenting its marginalized role in Thanksgiving dinner.

3. Zadie Smith on the Novel, Race, and Voice

Timestamps: 19:22–34:32

The State of Fiction and New Voices

• Zadie Smith expresses excitement about contemporary fiction by women and authors of color:
  • “It seems like a good time. I don’t know, I’m doing a lot of reading and it seems like a good time.” (Zadie Smith, 19:22)
  • She cites Alexandra Kleeman, Ottessa Moshfegh, and Yaa Gyasi.

On Writing “Swing Time”

• Smith describes her latest novel as “a kind of fable about blackness,” centered on the friendship between two girls in a dance class (20:29).
• Dance as metaphor: “Whenever I’m thinking about race, I always think of it exactly on that line of generalization… Both what is held against you and also what you hold close.” (21:19)

Female Friendship in Literature

• Smith and Remnick discuss why female friendships now take center stage in fiction:
  • “Women, with families, are writing more than they have in human history. And one of the things which is very important in female life is this relationship.” (24:27)

On Writing in the First Person

• Smith confesses initial “British snobbery” about first-person narration, influenced by Shakespearean ideas of empathy and negative capability (25:53–26:11):
  • “The first person… is considered an indulgence or something bordering on the memoiristic… and also basically limited. But that’s a very infantile idea of the first person.” (26:11)
  • She now sees it as a powerful literary effect.

Real People in Fiction; The “Impurity” of Fiction

• Smith discusses including real figures like Darryl Pinckney in her novel, relishing fiction’s “fundamentally immoral form” and its ability to “eat up reality and do whatever it wants.” (28:19–28:20)

Multivoiced-ness: Obama, Race, and Disappointment

• Reflecting on her essay “Speaking in Tongues,” Smith analyzes Obama’s ability and difficulty in being “multi-voiced” (29:19):
  • On Obama’s flexibility: “At a certain point people want from you a commitment… and he’s constitutionally incapable of doing that.” (29:19)
  • On racial emergency and black Americans’ need for direct advocacy: “In times of emergency, and I think for black people in America in the past few years, this has felt like an emergency. The kind of flexibility [Obama] prizes doesn't feel like much. We at times needed someone to stand directly with us and lay a line down.” (30:27)

The Emotional Aftermath of Writing and Artistic Satisfaction

• Smith describes finally feeling satisfaction with “Swing Time,” for “the first time… I got closer to something that I wanted and that was more honest.” (32:43)
• Still, “reading is the pleasure source for me… Writing is the thing you bring a lunch bucket to.” (33:22)

The Future of the Novel

• Smith and Remnick discuss new forms of storytelling (e.g., young writers publishing serial fiction via apps), with an acceptance that “the kids will be on a different track altogether.” (34:19)

4. Literary Picks with David Haglund

Timestamps: 34:43–39:47

• Haglund recommends comedy duo Mitchell and Webb, crosswords (and the “Rex Parker” blog), and forgotten soul musician Lee Moses as antidotes to life’s heaviness.
• Discussion on cultural assumptions in crossword puzzles and the changing nature of “common knowledge.”

5. Refugee Realities: Doctors Without Borders Simulation

Timestamps: 42:16–54:34

The MSF “Forced From Home” Exhibit

• Sarah Stillman visits an immersive exhibit meant to simulate the refugee experience (42:16).
  • “It turned out to be a kind of step by step look into, you know, everything from the actual boat journey… to what it looks like when Doctors Without Borders… sets up these emergency clinics.” (42:50)
• Led by Dr. Africa Stewart, OBGYN from Georgia and veteran of MSF missions.

Walking in Refugee Shoes

• Participants must select five items to “take” as refugees (water, money, cellphone, etc.), forced to give some up as they progress, highlighting the impossible decisions actual refugees make (44:21–50:02).
• The simulation highlights the paradoxes of empathy exercises—are they self-congratulatory, or do they foster true awareness? (51:37)

The Emotional Labor of Humanitarian Work

• Dr. Stewart shares the intense pressures of the work and the coping mechanisms staff develop:
  • “Most of what I use practically, I learned from my colleagues. The first thing I learned is you don't cry in front of the staff. It is better to be respected than loved.” (53:08)
  • “I always say I'm not going back to the field. And I do, always.… it's too much. I'm too old for this crap.” (54:14)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• David Frum (on the Trump presidency's dangers):
  “The worst case scenario is the Department of Justice no longer works the way a first world Department of Justice is supposed to work. It will be used for protecting the President's interests and those of his friends from investigation.” (10:04)
• Zadie Smith (on female friendship in fiction):
  “Women… writing more than they have in human history. And one of the things which is very important in female life is this relationship. I don’t know a woman who hasn’t had these intense childhood friendships.” (24:27)
• Dr. Africa Stewart (on the cost of humanitarian work):
  “I have some secrets that I'll never speak to another soul because it's just too heavy. But every now and again I can call Denmark and talk to Anya and she knows why I called. And we don't even have to talk about it… Sometimes that's all I needed. Wash your hands, do it again. Just don't give up.” (53:08)

Segment Timestamps (MM:SS)

• 00:28 — Introduction: Turmoil in Washington
• 01:57 — Interview: David Frum on conservatism and Trump
• 04:06 — Frum’s “painful” vote for Clinton
• 10:04 — Department of Justice warning
• 12:11 — Russian interference concerns
• 14:25 — Defense of institutions and civic action
• 15:56 — Comic interlude: Cranberry sauce monologue
• 19:22 — Zadie Smith on fiction today
• 20:29 — “Swing Time” central themes
• 24:27 — Female friendship in novels
• 25:53 — First-person narrative discussion
• 29:19 — Smith on Obama’s “multi-voiced” leadership
• 32:43 — Artistic fulfillment and honesty in writing
• 34:43 — David Haglund's cultural recommendations
• 42:16 — Refugee crisis simulation with Dr. Africa Stewart and Sarah Stillman
• 53:08 — Stewart on emotional labor in field work

Tone & Language Notes

David Remnick’s approach is probing, intellectual, but compassionate. David Frum is cautious, deeply concerned but measured. Zadie Smith is thoughtful, self-reflective, and witty. Dr. Africa Stewart brings a mix of sobering realism and humor grounded in experience. Sarah Stillman is skeptical but empathetic. Literary and cultural references abound, and the conversation remains accessible and insightful throughout.

Conclusion

This episode of The New Yorker Radio Hour showcases a critical moment in politics, the evolving nature of fiction, and firsthand humanitarian insight with clarity, warmth, and urgency. Thoughtful reflection and personal stories highlight the complexity of identity, responsibility, and creativity in uncertain times.