The New Yorker Radio Hour — Episode 6: "Two Writers and a Rock Star Onstage"
Date: November 27, 2015
Host: David Remnick
Guests: Patti Smith, George Saunders, Jonathan Safran Foer
Produced by: WNYC Studios and The New Yorker
Summary By: [Expert Podcast Summarizer]
Episode Overview
This special episode showcases highlights from the 2015 New Yorker Festival:
- A live interview with Patti Smith — legendary musician, writer, and artist — in conversation with David Remnick.
- A dialogue between fiction writers George Saunders and Jonathan Safran Foer, exploring the meaning of art, goodness, and the writing process.
Segment 1: Patti Smith in Conversation with David Remnick
(00:29 – 39:33)
Patti Smith's Artistic Journey and Memoir Writing
- Patti Smith discusses her evolution from a struggling artist in New York to an acclaimed musician and writer.
- Comparison of Smith's two memoirs:
- Just Kids: Written at Mapplethorpe's dying request; grounded in factual recollection and emotional responsibility.
- M Train: Freer, more impressionistic, shaped solely by Smith’s memory, presented as a series of reflections and vignettes.
Quote:
"When I was finished [with Just Kids], I really wanted to write something that had no agenda, no responsibility. No one knew it was coming. No one asked me to write it. And I just sat and I had this dream that, well, I could write about nothing… And then I just sat every day, just writing without design. But what I learned in the process was everything has a design."
— Patti Smith (03:27)
On Memory and Recollection
- Smith recalls keeping small diaries with factual notes that later jogged deeper memories.
- Most of "Just Kids" was based on her own recollection, as most of the key figures had passed away.
Quote:
"They're just little facts. But then I was always keeping journals. And Robert—we wrote letters back then, and Robert wrote me quite a bit of letters. And so I was able to take a lot. They were primary resources."
— Patti Smith (06:35)
Family, Childhood, and Collective Memory
- Smith fondly describes a close-knit childhood, feeling supported and loved by her siblings.
- Explains how the deaths of family members magnify the importance of shared memories.
Quote:
"It was happy because I was so loved by my brother and sister. You know, they really admired me, and I felt like I was really somebody."
— Patti Smith (07:36)
Love, Loss, and the Presence of Fred "Sonic" Smith
- The process of writing about her late husband, Fred Sonic Smith, came unexpectedly as memories surfaced during the writing of "M Train".
- Notes the bittersweet interplay of memory triggered by her children and significant dates.
Quote:
"He’s been gone, like 20 years, and there’s certain periods…he’s there, but sort of somewhere back here. And sometimes he’s right in the forefront. And I think, when does that happen? It was very intense when I was writing this book."
— Patti Smith (09:25)
The Influence of Books and Religion
- Both parents were avid (if very different) readers; her mother enjoyed poetry and romance novels, while her father gravitated toward philosophy and literature.
- Smith’s mother was a professed but non-practicing Jehovah's Witness, which shaped Patti’s early spiritual education.
- On her iconic lyric, "Jesus died for somebody's sins but not mine" (12:46), Smith clarifies:
- It was not about rejecting Jesus, but about rejecting organized religion and taking personal responsibility.
Quote:
"I wanted to take responsibility for all of my own wrongdoings. I wanted to be, you know, free of guilt that, you know, Jesus had to die for me every time I did something wrong. I just thought he’d be free of me."
— Patti Smith (13:07)
Discovering Rimbaud and Artistic Vocation
- Encountered Rimbaud’s "Illuminations" by chance; initially drawn in by his image, then captivated by his language.
- Early experience working in a factory fed into her poetry ("Piss Factory"), and cultivated an outsider perspective.
Memorable anecdote:
Smith was dunked in a toilet ("Piss Factory") by co-workers who saw her Rimbaud poetry book as a "communist" threat
(18:00–19:00)
Quote:
"I paid for arrogance, really."
— Patti Smith (19:10)
Arrival in New York and Path To Success
- Moved to NYC out of economic necessity, not to chase artistic stardom, but with hopes of growth and a kindred spirit.
- Smith was prepared for hardship, inspired by stories of other artists struggling before their breakthroughs.
Quote:
"I knew I had something… but Robert and I were quite different. I was ready to suffer and take awhile. Robert didn’t want to suffer. He knew who he was… He had ambition. I had ambition. But my ambition was more conceited than Robert’s. I wanted to, like, write great books and win a Nobel Prize..."
— Patti Smith (23:01)
On Becoming a "Musician"
- Reluctantly embraces the “rock star” label; sees herself foremost as a performer and poet.
- Music grew out of a need to make her poetry more visceral, not out of a desire to be musical per se.
Quote:
"I feel embarrassed when people call me a musician. I can play a few chords, sing… Well, I’m a performer."
— Patti Smith (23:58)
The Peak of Rock Stardom and Reflections on Fame
- Realized her fame abruptly amid massive crowds in Italy; struggled with attendant pressure and superficiality of stardom.
- Ultimately withdrew from the spotlight, uncomfortable with pampering and the trappings of celebrity.
Quote:
"I wasn’t used to being pampered… at first it was kind of cool… But then it just seemed like… I enjoyed it for a while. I had my fun."
— Patti Smith (29:49)
Performing and Connecting with New Generations
- Now enjoys touring more — it’s healthier (no smoke), crowds include many young people discovering her through her books.
- Values the rawness and imperfection of live performance.
Quote:
"We're an old fashioned band. We don't have any cues, we don't have a lighting guy, we don't have tapes. We're just a rock and roll band. We're pretty raw. If we mess up, we just laugh or I'll talk to people."
— Patti Smith (31:35)
Tough Love for Aspiring Musicians
- Offers unvarnished advice: get a job, put in the work.
- Recounts humble beginnings (e.g., working while recording "Horses").
Quote:
"'People say I don’t have any money to put out my CD.' And I said, 'Well, get a job.'"
— Patti Smith (32:29)
The Story Behind "Because the Night"
(33:25–39:31)
- Smith recounts collaborating with Bruce Springsteen on the iconic song.
- Lyrics inspired by her relationship with Fred Sonic Smith and the distance/time apart they experienced as a couple.
- The song is performed live on stage by Smith and Remnick.
Quote:
"Bruce was working on this song when I was recording Easter…it had a great chorus and a very anthemic piece of music in my key. And he gave it to me… So one night I was waiting for [Fred]… I wrote some lyrics to occupy my time… And by then I had written the lyrics to what would become my most successful song."
— Patti Smith (33:25)
(Live performance of "Because the Night" follows at 35:31–39:13.)
Segment 2: George Saunders & Jonathan Safran Foer — Writers in Dialogue
(40:17 – 54:31)
On Goodness, Buddhism, and Human Nature
- Saunders notes Foer’s recurring engagement with “goodness” in his work, relating it to Buddhist ideas: inherent human goodness muddied by experience.
- Saunders and Foer discuss the nature of art as a quest, and how the act of writing is about discovering and refining better parts of themselves.
Quote:
"If you start from the assumption that people are basically all the same, they're just these little drops of nectar put in these decaying containers… then… that gives me a place to start."
— George Saunders (41:04)
Why Make Art? Process & Motivation
- Both writers admit that earlier desires to be noticed have given way to a deeper focus on "accident," "iteration," and discovery in the writing process.
- The challenge and fear in striving to do the best work possible is a central motivator and anxiety for both.
Quote:
"I'm afraid of saying this is the best I can do… So there are a couple of responses to that. One is not to show anybody, and the other is not to try ever."
— George Saunders (46:18)
Evolving as Writers: Letting in “Light” and Facing Fear
- Foer discusses the evolution of his work — learning to admit more positive experiences ("light").
- Both acknowledge the scary but necessary step of moving past the approach that first brought them success.
Quote:
"What I'm finding now is just that my work is generally moving towards something that I would say lets in more light… But otherwise, you're like [a] shark, you go to the bottom of the tank."
— Jonathan Safran Foer (47:19)
On "Cruelty" in Literature
- The idea that Foer's work contains “cruelty,” as observed by his interviewer Michael Silverblatt, surprises and resonates with him.
- Both writers reflect on the complexity of this dynamic: is it cruelty, or honesty in depicting life's difficulties?
On "Eating Animals" and Activism
- Foer’s approach to his non-fiction is one of rhetorical courtesy, aiming to broaden rather than dictate the conversation around meat-eating and ethics.
- Believes true art is for its own sake, but he intended "Eating Animals" to be useful in a concrete way.
Quote:
"The function was really to expand a conversation that feels repressed. …I don't think these things are simple."
— Jonathan Safran Foer (50:51)
Reflections on America
- Both contemplate their relationship to “America”—Saunders is “agnostic” about the question, while Foer finds a more middle-aged affirmation.
- Saunders recalls a poignant scene at a diverse New England amusement park as emblematic of a positive American ideal.
Quote:
"...There’s nowhere else on earth where you would be standing in a line like this and be happy to…"
— George Saunders (53:28)
Memorable Moments & Notable Quotes (with Timestamps)
- Patti Smith on her relationship to being called a musician:
"I feel embarrassed when people call me a musician… Well, I'm a performer. I feel proud to say that I'm a performer." (23:58)
- On faith and rebellion:
"I believe in him so much. He's the first word on my record, you know… I appreciated Jesus more as an individual, as a revolutionary." (13:07–15:03)
- Advice to struggling artists:
"'Get a job.'" (32:29)
- On the transformative power of art:
"...To see that thing get better than I am is really rich. I see a better part of myself starting to come through, and that's really… It's been really addictive."
— Jonathan Safran Foer (43:34)
Structuring and Flow
- The episode alternates between deeply personal storytelling and broader reflections on the creative process.
- Threads connecting both segments: authenticity, artistic risk, the interface between personal growth and work, the passage of time, and the moral content of art.
- The warmth and wit of all speakers come through, even as they delve into painful or complex subjects.
Suggested Listening Timestamps
- Patti Smith on memoir writing and memory — 03:27–11:03
- On religious upbringing and artistic rebellion — 11:08–15:03
- The story behind “Piss Factory” — 17:23–19:10
- On arriving in New York and early ambition — 21:06–24:07
- Live performance “Because the Night” — 35:31–39:13
- Saunders & Foer on why they make art — 43:16–47:19
- On "Eating Animals" and conversation activism — 50:51–52:51
Conclusion
This episode is an intimate window into the minds of three innovative artists. Patti Smith offers fierce honesty on art, memory, and transformation, while George Saunders and Jonathan Safran Foer open up about why they write, the risks of authenticity, and the evolving meaning of goodness and activism. The conversation is, at turns, humorous, moving, and thought-provoking—a true tonic for anyone interested in creativity and the examined life.