The New Yorker Radio Hour

Episode 60: What Is Trumpism?
Host: David Remnick
Date: December 9, 2016

Episode Overview

In this episode, The New Yorker Radio Hour explores the rise of “Trumpism”—the set of beliefs, strategies, and politics that propelled Donald Trump to the presidency—and how it is being received across the political spectrum. The episode features three rich segments: an examination of Trump’s economic appointments and populist contradictions; an in-depth conversation with conservative scholar Mark Bauerlein about cultural divides and the meaning of Trumpism; and on-the-ground storytelling about Venezuela’s economic collapse. The tone is analytical, thoughtful, and, at times, personal and poignant.

Segment 1: Trump’s Economics – Rhetoric vs. Reality

Guests: Sheila Kolhatkar (New Yorker writer)

Timestamps: 00:24 – 15:28

Discussion Highlights

• Trump’s Economic Promises vs. Cabinet Picks

  • Trump campaigned on bringing back jobs and advocating for the working class.
  • David Remnick: “He's made big promises to working class voters. Bringing back jobs is promise number one. But many of the people he's brought in...are Wall street big shots.” (01:24)
  • Cabinet nominees like Steve Mnuchin (Treasury) and Wilbur Ross (Commerce) come from elite Wall Street backgrounds—contradicting Trump’s outsider, populist campaign rhetoric.

• Contradictions & Hypocrisy

  • Both appointees are “very, very wealthy financiers” with deep roots in high finance.
  • Sheila Kolhatkar: “It's a little confusing when you try and reconcile this with his rhetoric...There are some reassuring things about them as choices. Both...are very, very smart and accomplished.” (03:01)
  • Mnuchin’s history involves profiting from the financial crisis by buying distressed assets for cheap (e.g., IndyMac Bank).

• Populism or Cronyism?

  • Trump promised to “drain the swamp” but appears to be “bringing the swamp in.”
  • Kolhatkar identifies the hypocrisy: “No, literally, billionaire financiers stepping in...It's stunning. I don't know what to tell you.” (06:31)

• Promoised Policies: Tax Cuts, Trade, and Jobs

  • Anticipated major policy changes:
    • Significant corporate tax cuts (from 35% to 15%).
    • Vague promises on tariffs and trade deals, including criticisms of NAFTA.
    • Holiday success stories—such as the Carrier plant in Indiana—are unlikely to be scalable or sustainable strategies.

• Structural Economic Reality

  • Kolhatkar: “There's a basic problem, which is that it's much, much cheaper to build all these products in other countries.” (10:41)
  • Automation, globalization, and flatlining industries (e.g., coal and steel) are the real drivers of lost jobs.

• Realistic Prospects

  • Most economists, and Kolhatkar herself, are doubtful that Trump can bring back large-scale, high-quality manufacturing jobs.
  • The potential outcome: increased deficits and pressure to privatize social programs.

Notable Quotes

• David Remnick: “It sounds like he is bringing the swamp in...for want of a better metaphor.” (04:47)
• Sheila Kolhatkar: “The contradictions and hypocrisy with what he was saying before are glaring and hard to ignore.” (06:39)
• On tax policy: “There’s a big question mark...anytime you have these kind of trickle down policies...that does not automatically translate into huge job growth inside the U.S.” (09:28)
• On banks not lending: “Their entire role...is to lend money from people who have it to enterprises that need it to grow. And they haven't been doing that.” (13:10)

Segment 2: What Is Trumpism? – Cultural and Political Shifts

Guests: Kelefa Sanneh (New Yorker staff writer), Mark Bauerlein (Emory University; First Things)

Timestamps: 19:19 – 34:02

Discussion Highlights

• Introducing Mark Bauerlein

  • Bauerlein is a conservative scholar who underwent a journey from liberal integrationist ideals to skepticism about identity politics and concerns about excessive “tribalism.”
  • He feels alienated by the rise of identity politics, seeing it as “destructive” and contrary to Martin Luther King's universalism. (20:45)

• Evangelical Support for Trump

  • Despite Trump's personal failings, evangelicals overwhelmingly supported him out of “acceptance of political realities.”
  • Bauerlein: “They're simply willing to take what political advantages they can find.” (22:49)

• Breaking Taboos and Cultural Backlash

  • Bauerlein claims Trump’s appeal lies in violating both “liberal” and “elite” taboos on language and behavior.
  • On campus culture: “It has become a culture of a hermeneutic of suspicion about people. We're so unforgiving about the stupid things that we all do.” (24:55)
  • He argues that political discourse has become too focused on censorship and less tolerant of “bad thoughts,” creating inevitable backlash.

• Policy vs. Symbolism

  • Sanneh: “We find ourselves talking a lot about what he says, how he says it...and talking hardly at all about policies.” (29:02)
  • Bauerlein admits that policies matter less emotionally to voters than abstract symbols and rhetoric—e.g., “the Wall” represents “home” and belonging.

• Trump as a “World Historical Figure”

  • Bauerlein invokes Hegel: “Why this time? Why in 2016, it all clicked...all the things we do have all these unintended consequences.” (32:42)
  • Suggests Trump is the “fool figure” who says what others won’t, and that both he and Clinton might have governed similarly—though with different rhetoric.

Notable Quotes

• Bauerlein: “The taboos have become destructive to our society. We're losing the liberalism...that gives people a little space to think some bad thoughts.” (26:45)
• Sanneh: “Are you the right guy to say X, Y, and Z to someone?...in his view...the problem is that a certain way of talking about these issues...relies on kind of shame and guilt.” (29:02)
• Bauerlein on Trump: “The consequences of Trump's presidency will also be unintended, even for someone like him...who's relatively speaking [in favor].” (31:54)

Segment 3: Venezuela in Crisis – Profound Collapse & Personal Stories

Guests: William Finnegan (New Yorker correspondent), Francisco Nava (retired barber, Venezuelan émigré)

Timestamps: 35:33 – 47:54

Discussion Highlights

• Life During Collapse

  • Finnegan visits his old friend Francisco Nava in NYC, who describes sending packages of basics (cornmeal, bandages, aspirin) to desperate relatives in Venezuela.
  • Francisco Nava: “All the problems in Venezuela—they will take more than a year to tell you about it.” (36:06)
  • Nava shares that even his own sister died due to lack of medication, a common fate in the country.

• Causes of Venezuela’s Crisis

  • Finnegan recounts Venezuela’s oil wealth, Hugo Chávez’s populist socialism, and years of economic mismanagement.
  • Oil price collapse in 2014 compounded failures; food production has plummeted; even basics like rice and beef must now be imported but there’s no foreign currency.

• Everyday Hardships

  • Descriptions of dire poverty: “15–20,000 Bolivares a month” salary; critical goods costing a month's income.
  • Hospitals are scenes of tragedy—no medicine, families camped outside, and even police/military selling supplies on the black market.

• Chávez to Maduro: From Populism to Dictatorship

  • Maduro’s mystical and inept leadership; growing dictatorship without clear order—resembles more a failed state than a classic dictatorship.
  • Finnegan: “It’s not a classic dictatorship. There just aren’t any elections forthcoming.” (45:34)
  • Violent crime is rampant; government has lost control to organized crime.

• Pride & Stubbornness

  • Maduro refuses international aid, invoking “Chavista pride.”
  • Nava’s family can only look forward to the arrival of a care package: “It's like Christmas. Yeah, it's amazing.” (47:19)

Memorable Moments

• Nava’s story of loss: “My sister couldn't find her medication and she died...Many people dying...” (43:45)
• On sending boxes home: “I'm so happy when they will give these things to them. It's like the joy, the happiness when box arrives there.” (46:55)

Segment 4: Michael Chabon Recommends (Culture and Comfort)

Guest: Michael Chabon (novelist)

Timestamps: 48:28 – 55:00

Tone: Relaxed, personal, a cultural respite after weighty topics.

Highlights & Recommendations

• The Crown (Netflix series)

  • Chabon praises its quiet, low-stakes drama: “I compared it to watching an aquarium. Like, nothing happens. It moves at this glacial pace, and the stakes are so incredibly low.” (49:06)
  • Finds comfort and style in the mundane palace intrigues.

• Fried Chicken Recipe

  • Shares his go-to buttermilk fried chicken from Food52—a family comfort in tough times.
  • Double-battered method provides “incredible flavor” and crispy results. (53:09)

• Book: Beatlebone by Kevin Barry

  • A lyrical novel imagining John Lennon traveling to an island off Ireland in 1978, wrestling with legacy and solace. (54:01)
  • “It’s a beautifully written novel about an imaginary escape that John Lennon makes in 1978.” (53:35)

Episode Takeaways

• The Contradiction of Trumpism: The economic policies and cabinet picks of the incoming Trump administration clash with his populist rhetoric, raising questions about the future for his working-class supporters.
• Populism’s Cultural Roots: Trump’s real power may be in violating elite social taboos and channeling the discontent with “political correctness” and identity politics, more than any specific policy proposals.
• Personal Costs of Political Failure: The segment on Venezuela is a sobering reminder of how the failure of populism and mismanagement can trickle down into heartbreaking human consequences.
• Moments of Solace: The episode closes on a note of seeking comfort in small things—TV, food, literature—amidst political and societal uncertainty.

Notable Quotes by Timestamp

• On Trump’s hires:
  “It's a little confusing when you try and reconcile this with his rhetoric.”
  — Sheila Kolhatkar (03:01)

• On Wall St. in the White House:
  “No, literally, billionaire financiers stepping in...It's stunning.”
  — Sheila Kolhatkar (06:31)

• On manufacturing jobs:
  “Trump has not laid out anything...that directly addresses those problems.”
  — Sheila Kolhatkar (11:41)

• On American cultural taboos:
  “Trump exploded that hypersensitivity, that overweening awareness of identity markers...He breaks the taboos.”
  — Mark Bauerlein (25:26)

• On symbolism over policy:
  “Republicans, they talk about tax rates. Okay, Tax rates, Never. They don't excite people. I mean, the wall...it's really about a feeling of this is my place.”
  — Mark Bauerlein (30:38)

• On Venezuela’s crisis:
  “The government really doesn’t have control of the streets and organized crime does. So it's not a classic dictatorship. There just aren't any elections forthcoming.”
  — Bill Finnegan (45:34)

For more from the guests:

• Sheila Kolhatkar’s writing: newyorkerradio.org
• Kelefa Sanneh’s pieces: newyorkerradio.org
• Michael Chabon's fried chicken recipe: newyorkerradio.org

This summary provides a comprehensive yet concise understanding of Episode 60, capturing both the analytical insights and the human stories that define the hour.