Danielle Deadwyler on August Wilson and Denzel Washington

Summary

The New Yorker Radio Hour: In-Depth Analysis of "The Piano Lesson" Adaptation Release Date: November 19, 2024
Host: David Remnick
Produced by: WNYC Studios and The New Yorker

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Introduction

In the November 19, 2024 episode of The New Yorker Radio Hour, host David Remnick delves into the latest cinematic adaptation of August Wilson's acclaimed play, "The Piano Lesson." This episode particularly spotlights Danielle Deadweiler, who stars as Bernice in the film, and explores the intricate dynamics of family, heritage, and artistic legacy. The discussion is enriched by insights from Doreen San Felix, the New Yorker staff writer profiled in Deadweiler's previous work.

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Adapting August Wilson’s "The Piano Lesson"

David Remnick opens the episode by contextualizing Denzel Washington's significant role not only as an actor but also as a producer. Washington has ambitiously undertaken the task of adapting ten of August Wilson's plays—the esteemed Century Cycle—into films. "The Piano Lesson," now the third adaptation, features Deadweiler in a pivotal role alongside John David Washington, Denzel's son, who portrays Boy Willie. Malcolm Washington, another of Denzel's sons, directs the film, highlighting the family's deep involvement in this project.

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Character Study: Bernice and Boy Willie

Danielle Deadweiler provides a nuanced portrayal of Bernice, a widow grappling with her family's legacy embodied in a symbolic piano. The film is set against the backdrop of the Great Depression and the Great Migration, emphasizing the strain on the African American family structure during that era.

Danielle Deadweiler ([02:26]): "In the Piano Lesson, the Charles family is rent asunder by this object, this talisman, which is a piano on which are carved the likenesses of their ancestors."

Bernice's brother, Boy Willie (played by John David Washington), arrives from Mississippi with the intention of selling the piano to fund the purchase of his family's ancestral farm, a move Bernice vehemently opposes as she views the piano as a cornerstone of their identity.

John David Washington ([03:32]): "It's 5:00 in the morning and you coming here with all this noise, you can't come like normal. She got to bring all that noise with you."

Deadweiler discusses Bernice's internal conflict:

Danielle Deadweiler ([04:15]): "Bernice's fragile stability that she has is completely torn asunder."

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Symbolism of the Piano

The piano serves as a central symbol in the narrative, representing history, tradition, and ancestral connections. Deadweiler reflects on how the piano embodies both a living tradition and a source of familial tension.

Danielle Deadweiler ([11:06]): "The piano lesson to me is one of the more interesting Wilson plays because you see him confronting, I think, the ideas that he was raised with, given that he was so enamored of his mother."

David Remnick expands on this symbolism:

David Remnick ([06:57]): "The piano is a living, breathing altar. It's a portal, it's a door. It takes up so much space in the design of the home and it takes up so much space in the consciousness of everyone in the house."

He further connects the piano to broader themes of growth and identity within the constraints of societal expectations and systemic racism.

David Remnick ([07:50]): "The piano is questioning both of them and everybody in the house therein gets to be questioned."

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The Washington Family’s Artistic Legacy

The adaptation is a family affair, with Malcolm Washington directing and other family members contributing to the project. David Remnick highlights the collaborative spirit of the Washington family, emphasizing how their collective efforts mirror the themes of inheritance and legacy present in the film.

David Remnick ([17:25]): "Histories are past by the dinner table. Histories are passed whilst you're making the thing. Histories are passed on set."

Danielle Deadweiler notes the intergenerational impact of August Wilson's work:

Danielle Deadweiler ([19:52]): "With this film adaptation, which inherits prior stage reproductions, the TV adaptation, all I can think about is how interesting it will be to see in 10, 15, 20 years an artist react to this version."

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Themes of Inheritance and History

A significant portion of the conversation revolves around the concept of inheritance—not just of tangible assets but of cultural and familial histories. Remnick and Deadweiler discuss how history is perpetuated through oral traditions and daily practices, especially within black communities.

David Remnick ([14:59]): "History is largely orally passed down in black communities. The information is spread in all kinds of ways, musically, in movement, in work, in modes of survival."

Deadweiler adds:

Danielle Deadweiler ([16:33]): "This is a film about family, about the difficulty of maintaining family, but it's also made by a family which I find very interesting."

They explore how these inherited stories and practices shape individual identities and collective memory, emphasizing the importance of maintaining these traditions amidst changing societal landscapes.

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Conclusion and Reflections

As the conversation wraps up, Remnick and Deadweiler reflect on the enduring legacy of August Wilson's work and its adaptation into film. They acknowledge the ongoing ripple effect of these stories, which continue to inspire and provoke contemplation across generations.

David Remnick ([20:43]): "That makes it intergenerational, that makes it, that makes it ripple. You can just see the wake continue."

Deadweiler encapsulates the essence of the adaptation:

Danielle Deadweiler ([20:55]): "Histories are passed as we keep doing things together. You keep making stuff. You keep coming back to each other. You keep forging ahead, you keep rebirthing."

The episode concludes with an announcement that "The Piano Lesson" is available in theaters and streaming on Netflix, inviting listeners to engage with this profound exploration of family and legacy.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Danielle Deadweiler ([02:26]): "In the Piano Lesson, the Charles family is rent asunder by this object, this talisman, which is a piano on which are carved the likenesses of their ancestors."

• John David Washington ([03:32]): "It's 5:00 in the morning and you coming here with all this noise, you can't come like normal."

• Danielle Deadweiler ([04:15]): "Bernice's fragile stability that she has is completely torn asunder."

• David Remnick ([06:57]): "The piano is a living, breathing altar. It's a portal, it's a door."

• Danielle Deadweiler ([11:06]): "The piano lesson to me is one of the more interesting Wilson plays..."

• David Remnick ([14:59]): "History is largely orally passed down in black communities."

• Danielle Deadweiler ([16:33]): "This is a film about family, about the difficulty of maintaining family, but it's also made by a family..."

• David Remnick ([20:43]): "That makes it intergenerational, that makes it, that makes it ripple."

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Final Thoughts

This episode of The New Yorker Radio Hour offers a profound exploration of "The Piano Lesson," highlighting its thematic depth and the collaborative artistry of the Washington family. Through insightful dialogue and personal reflections, listeners gain a comprehensive understanding of the film's significance and its place within the broader tapestry of American storytelling.

Transcript

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[David Remnick]

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. Denzel Washington, of course is one of the great presences in American film going back 40 plus years, but he's also made his mark as a producer. Specifically, Washington has set out to Adapt for film 10 plays by the late August Wilson, the 10 plays known as the Century Cycle. Viola Davis starred in Fences in Ma Rainey's Black Bottom. And now Danielle Deadweiler stars in the Piano Lesson. A couple of years ago, Deadweiler gave an amazing performance in the film Till as Emmett Till's mother and she was profiled in the New Yorker by Doreen San Felix.

[Danielle Deadweiler]

I first saw Danielle Detwiler perform in Station 11 on HBO and in Danielle's latest role she plays Bernice in the film the Piano Lesson, a period piece set in in 1936. So we have the backdrop of the Great Depression and the Great Migration. It's a chamber drama about family, about the creation, the potential dissolution of the black family at the beginning of the 20th century. In the Piano Lesson, the Charles family is rent asunder by this object, this talisman, which is a piano on which are carved the likenesses of their ancestors. Bernice is the sister of The Charles family. She is a widow. She has lost her husband. She is a mother to young Maritha. We meet Bernice in the middle of the night. She's awoken by her brother, boy Willie.

[John David Washington]

It's 5:00 in the morning and you coming here with all this noise, you can't come like normal. She got to bring all that noise with you. Oh hell, woman, I was glad to see dokie.

[David Remnick]

I come 1,800 miles to see my sister. I figure she might want to get.

[John David Washington]

Up and say hi.

[Danielle Deadweiler]

Boy Willie has driven up from Mississippi to Pittsburgh to confront her about this piano. He wants to sell it and he wants to use the money that he can make from the sale to buy the farm that his family worked on as sharecroppers. Bernice can't fathom that. And she feels that the piano is the representation of the Charles family, of her mother's grief, and that to let it go would be to lose identity.

[David Remnick]

The brother, Boy Willie, is played by John David Washington, who's of course Denzel's son. And Malcolm Washington, Denzel's other son, directed the film. Here's staff writer Doreen San Felix speaking with Danielle Deadweiler.

[Danielle Deadweiler]

I think about Bernice as having made a tremendous kinetic movement when the story begins, right. Having made that journey to Pittsburgh, having made that so called Great Migration during the Great Depression.

[David Remnick]

That's so crazy. Cause you saying it like that, the Great Migration, it's literal, but internally it's not right?

[Danielle Deadweiler]

Exactly. It's not for her. And so when Boy Willie comes bussin in, in the middle of the night.

[David Remnick]

We go bussin again.

[Danielle Deadweiler]

With this large energy and his secret purpose of wanting to get that piano back to sell it. Yeah, Bernice, that fragile stability that she has is completely torn asunder. And there's this wonderful scene that I want to play right now where you talk to Boy Willie about this piano that Bernice typically doesn't want to talk about. She doesn't want to play it, but she wants to keep it. And so let's listen to that scene right now.

[John David Washington]

Mama Ola polished this piano with her tears. For 17 years. For 17 years she rubbed on it till her hands bled. Then she rubbed the blood in, mixed it with the rest of the blood on it. Every day God breathed life into her body. She rubbed and cleaned and polished and prayed over. Play something for Bernice. Play something for me, Bernice. Play something for me, Bernice. Every day I cleaned it up for you. Play something for me, Bernice. You always talking about your daddy, but you'll never stop to look at what his foolishness cost your mama. 17 years worth of cold nights and an empty bed. For what? For a p Ella. For a piece of wood.

[Danielle Deadweiler]

In Malcolm Washington's adaptation of this play, we have flashback. So we see a young Bernice playing the piano for her mother. Which leads me to ask, how do you interpret the piano as both symbol of history, of tradition, of ancestry. What's your relationship to the piano?

[David Remnick]

The piano is a living, breathing object. It's a living, breathing altar. It's a portal, it's a door. It takes up so much space in the design of the home and it takes up so much space in the consciousness of everyone in the house. It's Big Mama esque. Yeah. Its language is just much more stealth and loud considering. Right. It's silent or it is being forced to be silent. And that's haunting. It's dangerous for people who want to grow in any, in any real way. And that's why it's pushing on both of them. Like, do you really get to grow because you get money? Do you really get to grow because you're going to get some land at a time where white supremacy and Jim Crow are not interested in any kind of black American cultural growth? And are you really gonna be upwardly mobile just because you have a job, just because you're not in the south, just because you align with a man of the cloth? Are you really gonna grow cause you present well? Is that true growth? The piano is questioning both of them and everybody in the house therein gets to be questioned.

[Danielle Deadweiler]

Right.

[David Remnick]

It's pulling both of them in to really assess who they think they are and who they really want to be and who they think they are with or without each other.

Danielle Deadweiler speaking with Doreen San Felix. More in a moment.

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[Danielle Deadweiler]

Maybe humans are what happens when high intelligence evolves in an animal that also has hands. And dolphins are what happens when more extravagant intelligence evolves in an anim without hands.

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Close encounters of the earthly kind.

[Danielle Deadweiler]

That was unbelievable.

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That was so cool.

[Danielle Deadweiler]

Hello from Radiolab.

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[Danielle Deadweiler]

The piano lesson to me is one of the more interesting Wilson plays because you see him confronting, I think, the ideas that he was raised with, given that he was so enamored of his mother.

[David Remnick]

Right.

[Danielle Deadweiler]

Wilson was obsessed with his mother and in some ways pedestalized her for that.

[David Remnick]

Right.

[Danielle Deadweiler]

And when she didn't give him love, he was, you know, traumatized by that. I think Bernice is such a prismatic character because we see him looking at the black woman who is sometimes made into the black matriarch from so many different perspectives. I was curious when you came into this group of actors, many of them who had already either worked in the revival on Broadway that was directed by Latanya Richardson in 2022, you hadn't been a part of that group. Did you have conversations with your actors about who they thought Bernice was?

[David Remnick]

No, I won't talk to them about who Bernice is. They don't know who Bernice is. No, we didn't have a conversation. None of the guys, Malcolm and I did. Malcolm and I dove. Malcolm and I talked about the spiritual trajectory. We talked about Zora Neale Hurston, we talked about.

[Danielle Deadweiler]

Oh, that's really interesting. Can you say more about what? About Zora.

[David Remnick]

So at the time, I had been reading her letters, that thick book of letters, right. This thing that people don't really do to communicate intimacies anymore. But just how bold she was, how playful and mysterious she was, how free. And Bernice is not exactly that or perhaps is working to get to that in the best way she can. So she felt like an inspiration, like Zora's, an inspiration for someone she could have witnessed and seen as a flicker, as a long form figure. It just. She's the person who's moving back and forth in Time and between the spaces that are haunting Bernice. Bernice hadn't been back to Mississippi. Zora's going back and forth all the time. Bernice is entrenched in traditional black American Christianity.

[Danielle Deadweiler]

Zora's leaving the country.

[David Remnick]

She's going to Haiti. She's chilling in the south, learning about hoodoo. She's doing all of the things. So that contrast just felt significant to hold onto because the other end of the coin is the captain maternal that she witnessed in the form of her mother. And this is the thing that made her fearful of a true self, of her authentic experience of acknowledging it outwardly.

[Danielle Deadweiler]

You know, at one point, all the adults are downstairs and they're talking and they're arguing. And Maritha is alone upstairs. And she feels a presence, man, a spectral presence. And it is scary for her because a ghost is a ghost. But it's also scary because her mother, Bernice, has not actually given her the knowledge, has not done that. Transmission of family history. I wanted to hear you talk about the different kinds of histories that you have a relationship to as an artist, but also that this character has a relationship to being the oral being, you know, the written record. How do you think history is made? How is it cast down? Just a light question.

[David Remnick]

It's a light one. Light work. Oh, my goodness. History is largely orally passed down in black communities. The information is spread in all kinds of ways, musically, in movement, in work, in modes of survival, in the way you practice at home, the way one cleans. That's a specific history. That's a whole bunch. But I think about those when I think about the ways that it's most immediate.

[Danielle Deadweiler]

Right?

[David Remnick]

Yeah.

[Danielle Deadweiler]

Almost subconscious.

[David Remnick]

Yeah. The subconscious is major when it comes to passing on history.

[Danielle Deadweiler]

Absolutely.

[David Remnick]

That's why it's important to like block out all of the books and block out all of the conversation in institutions, in educational spaces, so that it can't be in your subconscious. Right. If I get it out of this space, then I can assuredly keep you from questioning in any other. It won't be on your mind all the time. You won't be able to think negatively of others or question society or question your place in the world. History making histories being developed have to take place in your quotidian life. Like it's imperative you learn stuff from cats on the street corner, you know, who's just sitting there all day. As much as you learn from a teacher in the building.

[Danielle Deadweiler]

Absolutely. This is a film about family, about the difficulty of maintaining family, but it's also made by A family which I find very interesting. I think the emergence of the Washington family as a troop in and of itself is interesting, right, Because Malcolm directed his brother. John David plays boy Willie in the film, Olivia Washington, his sister, as a cameo in the film Katya Washington produced. And of course, Denzel is the one who had said, I'm going to commit to adapting every single one of the plays in August Wilson's American Century cycle to film. And so the Piano Lesson is the third adaptation.

[David Remnick]

And Pauletta.

[Danielle Deadweiler]

And Pauletta, exactly. What's your impression of the family and their relationship to art?

[David Remnick]

It seems that it surrounds the way they've built themselves. And everybody didn't come to it immediately, it seems. Right. John David wouldn't play ball even though he knows he loved it. Right. Like, and Malcolm was a big basketball player and thought to do a certain thing in a certain way at one time. But it's just been life force for them. And when you get to a mature stage and realizing who you are by our forces combined, we are. You know what I mean? That's what that feels like. And everybody has been doing things consistently, individually or in duos. Like, John David and Katie have been on set together already. And, you know, you just see people who are bringing everybody into the fold now. They are a collective spirit unto themselves. And then you extend beyond. So when you say family of swords within me, like, literally this family, and then there's a family that's being made film wise, and then there's a greater family that is being made audience wise. That's just. That's what you do with art. I mean, that's what the stories are when we're on set, or the stories are when we have dinner or the stories are as we tour. Like, what does it mean to have been a part of these historical moments? This is how you know histories are past. Right?

[Danielle Deadweiler]

Right.

[David Remnick]

Histories are past by the dinner table. Histories are past whilst you're making the thing. Histories are past on set. Histories are past while you're gardening. You know, I'm thinking about my grandma. Like, histories are passed as we keep doing things together. And you just continue keep doing things together through struggle, through joy, through love, making through challenge. And that's what the Washingtons feel like. You keep making stuff. You keep coming back to each other. You keep forging ahead, you keep rebirthing.

[Danielle Deadweiler]

I think the word that keeps rolling around in my head is inheritance. Right? Because it's about inheriting from the generation prior. Whether that's is, you know, from actual people, their lives, their histories. But also the work that they created. And with this film adaptation, which inherits prior stage reproductions, the TV adaptation, all I can think about is how interesting it will be to see in 10, 15, 20 years an artist react to this version. There's a sense of Wilson being almost like a creator of like a folktale that every generation is then able to bring to bear their own experiences on.

[David Remnick]

And I welcome that. That makes it intergenerational, that makes it, that makes it ripple. You can just see the wake continue.

The New Yorker's Doreen San Felix speaking with Danielle Deadweiler. The Piano Lesson is in theaters and streaming on Netflix later this month. I'm David Remnick. That's our program for today and thanks for listening. See you next time.

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[Danielle Deadweiler]

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