Podcast Summary: Gish Jen’s “The Resisters”

Podcast: The New Yorker Radio Hour
Host: WNYC Studios and The New Yorker
Episode Date: February 14, 2020
Guest: Gish Jen
Guest Interviewer: Katie Waldman

Episode Overview

This episode features acclaimed novelist Gish Jen discussing her newest book, The Resisters, with New Yorker staff writer Katie Waldman. Set in a near-future dystopic America, the novel explores themes of class, technology, and resistance, all through the lens of a family whose daughter excels at baseball. The conversation delves into Jen's personal connections to the sport, her inspiration for writing dystopian fiction, and her nuanced view of technology in modern society.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Baseball as Personal and Cultural Symbol

• Jen recounts her family’s deep passion for baseball, illustrating how formative the sport was in her upbringing and identity.

• She shares an anecdote about her mother’s response to baseball news even during a health crisis, highlighting the sport's emotional resonance.

• Jen defines baseball as more than a game—it’s a cornerstone of the “American dream” and a space for fairness and possibility.

  Quote:

  "…my mother opened her eyes and without missing a beat, she said that Aaron Boone should be fired."
  — Gish Jen [02:28]

2. The Setting and Stakes of "The Resisters"

• The story is set in “Auto America," a future society starkly divided into “the netted”—privileged, tech-connected citizens—and the “surplus,” who exist to consume what the netted produce.

• Central character Gwen, a gifted pitcher, is given the opportunity to cross class lines and play in the elite league, prompting questions of loyalty, self-actualization, and family.

  Quote:

  "So, you know, she has to kind of decide whether she would cross this line and also whether it would make any difference… Is that going to help matters? So she has to ask herself some pretty hard questions as well as the question, of course, of, you know, whether she could bring her family with her."
  — Gish Jen [05:27]

3. Baseball’s Deeper Metaphorical Role

• Baseball symbolizes the American ideal of the level playing field and the importance of everyone having "a real chance at bat."

• Jen reads a poignant passage from the novel, emphasizing baseball’s status as a space for aspiration and human dignity, beyond algorithms and “upgrades.”

  Quote (reading from "The Resisters"):

  "…if baseball took on a hallowed meaning, it took on that meaning in our American dreams… didn’t we Americans believe, above all that everyone should have a real chance at bat?... we had a bigness in us, something beyond algorithms and beyond upgrades, something we were proud to call human."
  — Gish Jen [04:01]

4. From Realism to Dystopia: A Shift in Genre

• Jen explains why she departed from her customary realist fiction to write a dystopia, citing both a personal shift (becoming an empty nester) and an urgent concern about America’s direction.

• She felt that depicting current anxieties in a realistic setting would be “nothing but shock and anger,” so she opted for a speculative vision to explore consequences in a more contemplative way.

  Quote:

  "I wanted to write about what it would feel like if these things all continued. And what if our world became what it could become? You know, what would our lives be like?"
  — Gish Jen [07:05]

5. Evolving Attitudes Toward Technology and State Power

• Jen’s earlier optimism about technology—as liberating and connected to human creativity—has shifted as she witnessed how authoritarian regimes weaponize tech for coercion and surveillance.

• Drawing from her experiences in China (e.g., classroom surveillance, social credit systems, all-encompassing WeChat), Jen describes how technology has become “a hugely effective tool” for control.

  Quote:

  "…I have seen what the Chinese government has been able to do with technology."
  — Gish Jen [08:57]
  “Already at that time, they were piloting their, you know, social credit system… No one could really function there without WeChat. And already it was known that WeChat was censored…”
  — Gish Jen [09:27]

6. Ambivalence About Freedom and Technology

• A major through-line in both the novel and the conversation is ambivalence about freedom, especially regarding AI and its unforeseen consequences.

• Jen draws a parallel between parental pride in children’s independence and society’s unease about AI autonomy, noting how even tech companies cannot explain their own systems’ decision-making.

  Quote:

  "…we now are at the point where, you know, chatbots can develop their own language independent of us… even for [big tech companies] it’s a black box and they don’t really know. And that kind of thing makes us nervous. How could it not?"
  — Gish Jen [10:47]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• [02:28] Gish Jen, on family and baseball:
  "…my mother opened her eyes and without missing a beat, she said that Aaron Boone should be fired."

• [04:01] Gish Jen (reading from her novel):
  "…if baseball took on a hallowed meaning, it took on that meaning in our American dreams… above all that everyone should have a real chance at bat… we had a bigness in us, something beyond algorithms and beyond upgrades, something we were proud to call human."

• [07:05] On choosing the dystopian genre:
  "I wanted to write about what it would feel like if these things all continued. And what if our world became what it could become?"

• [09:27] On visiting China and witnessing tech in action:
  "Already at that time, they were piloting their, you know, social credit system… No one could really function there without WeChat. And already it was known that WeChat was censored…"

• [10:47] On AI unpredictability:
  "…a lot of people are quite unnerved by the fact that if you ask a big tech company, well, how does this work? That even for them it's a black box and they don't really know."

Timeline of Important Segments

• 00:32 – 03:29 | Jen discusses her personal and familial relationship to baseball, providing context for the novel’s central motif.
• 03:29 – 05:19 | Jen reads a significant passage from "The Resisters" about baseball’s symbolic meaning in America.
• 05:27 – 06:43 | Explains Gwen's dilemma and the central issues of class, opportunity, and loyalty in the novel.
• 07:05 – 08:18 | Jen describes her motivations for writing a dystopian novel at this particular moment.
• 08:18 – 10:10 | Delves into changing perceptions of technology, referencing her own past optimism and the realities of modern surveillance states.
• 10:47 – 11:36 | Discusses ambivalence about freedom and the unpredictability of AI, both as a writer and citizen.

Conclusion

This episode provides a rich, engaging dialogue about the intersection of literature, sports, technology, and politics. Gish Jen’s The Resisters is illuminated not only as a timely dystopic novel but also as a meditation on what is fundamentally human—our striving for fairness, meaning, and connection, even when facing systems designed to constrain us. Through personal stories, literary analysis, and cultural critique, Jen and Waldman offer a wide-ranging look at how fiction can help us understand and imagine the consequences of our present choices.