Masha Gessen (3:08)

That's exactly right. And I think that that's. And I'm not alone in this. A lot of Russian journalists and Russia specialists have been saying, you're overestimating these guys.

David Remnick (3:20)

That was the critique I always got from my liberal Russian friends, lots of them who are involved in journalism, is that you're made so crazy by Trump that you're overestimating the capacity for this kind of fantastical collusion to happen.

Masha Gessen (3:36)

Exactly. I mean, what we are seeing, us Russians, when we're looking at this picture is we see a bunch of hustlers, all of whom are trying to sell something to both sides. They're trying to sell Putin on the idea of creating an American president. They're trying to sell an American campaign, marginal American campaign, as far as we could tell, at a certain point, on the idea that they have some special connection to the Kremlin. And then we see a bunch of naive Americans going, oh, that, that's the secret.

David Remnick (4:07)

Right. It's like the idiot theory of collusion. It's not a master plan. You're surrounded by people like Roger Stone and Papadopoulos and all these other third rate people. But on the other hand, you have his. Paul Manafort is doing incredibly secretive business, criminal business, and he's running the campaign. So you can see why the suspicions were heightened.

Masha Gessen (4:31)

Yes. And I have to say, and real corruption over the course of this two years, especially when Manafort was arrested, I thought, well, maybe, maybe I was wrong. Yeah, I started hedging my bets.

David Remnick (4:43)

Now, Susan, even prominent Democratic members of Congress were speculating on television about collusion for months and months and months. And they were using language that went far beyond the notion of suspicious and why the lies and so on. They were saying, definitely collusion. Adam Schiff is still saying it.

Susan Glasser (5:03)

Correct. And I think that goes to this uncertainty that hangs over everything. And again, I just. You can't condemn this process enough. It seems to me it's done such a disservice. I mean, you know, first of all, if Trump really is vindicated, then how can they not want this report out? Because right now it doesn't have the credibility of even understanding what the argument is. Because what is collusion? It seems to me that, you know, Adam Schiff's version of collusion is different than Donald Trump's version of collusion. And we don't know what Mueller's version is. It appears that he's taken a fairly narrow interpretation of his mandate. Did Donald Trump cooperate and essentially sign up as an agent of the Russian military intelligence, the gru? And in that sense, he clearly has found the answer to be no. I think a lot of people who have looked at this closely, people who are Russia experts, never thought that, that that would be the case. And if that's the definition of collusion, you won't find a ton of people who were out there making that argument. The question of a different kind of Trump campaign collaboration with the Russian effort on his behalf, I think is much more where you see people who have been out there looking at evidence that's already on the public record and saying it's very suspicious, because there you do have a very documented record of not only the Russian efforts to interact with the campaign and this whole cast of characters that they're reaching out to and pinging and pinging during 2016, you have, number one, Trump and Manafort appearing to commit to the Russians top foreign policy priority, which was lifting of sanctions on Russia. That is a significant foreign policy engagement with Russia and its agents. So, again, there are enormous questions that, if they are not put, I think will simply undermine the credibility of Mueller's report. And Mueller, of course, is a man who both Democrats and Republicans for years have held in the highest regard. It's his integrity alone at this point that is essentially guaranteeing these findings, since we don't have the information.

David Remnick (7:21)

Magha A lot of the aftermath of this release of the four page letter has been criticism of the press. Famously, Matt Taibbi, a Rolling Stone writer, said that this is the WMD of our day, that the failure to get the WMD story, despite large protests all around the world, the failure of the mainstream media, with some small, with some exceptions, that as big a disaster as that was, what's going on now, what happened for the last two years is an equal disaster. Do you agree with that?

Masha Gessen (7:59)

I don't know how helpful that peril is. I mean, I think that the ongoing obsession with the Mueller investigation has been distracting and in a sense, destructive to the political conversation because of the expectation of the magic bullet, but also because of the way.

David Remnick (8:17)

Do you think there should never have been a special prosecutor?

Masha Gessen (8:20)

Not at all, no. I don't think that there shouldn't have been a special prosecutor, but I think that the obsession should have been toned down. I think that the problem with covering an investigation like this, and now we're seeing this sort of in full bloom, right, is that you're always reliant on anonymous sources. You're relying on leaks from intelligence officers, each of whom has an agenda and a narrative that you don't have access to. And in that sense, it is quite similar to wmd. Right. I just think that it's happening in a different political situation. You know, and as I listened to Susan, I was thinking back to Orwell's quote, that even to understand doublethink, you have to engage in doublethink. I have that brain breaking sense about this because this investigation into Trumpism is so infected by Trumpism that we can't get our brains around it. I mean, the fact that we have an attorney general that you can't put trust in because you have to point out that it's a hand picked attorney general. The fact that the leaks that have defined this presidency are the story.

David Remnick (9:29)

Well, another factor is that the most triumphant day in the Trump presidency has been the news, seemingly that he is not an agent or influence in some way from Russia.

Masha Gessen (9:43)

And then we don't even know what the news is.

David Remnick (9:45)

There is that. Let me ask you this, Steve Bannon, Susan. Steve Bannon, who was a very important strategist for the 2016 victory for Trump, now says that Trump is going to weaponize the results of the Mueller report for the 2020 campaign. Will that be a successful strategy?

Susan Glasser (10:07)

Well, look, I mean, you know, this is where Trump blowing up the conventions of our politics is still an ongoing. Any other political figure, of course, would be glad that an investigation like this is over and would want to move on as quickly as possible. You now see prominent Republicans, supporters of Trump, essentially begging him publicly, as Senator Kennedy from Louisiana did the other day, just to shut up about it and move on. Now, what do we all know about Trump's character at this point? The odds of him shutting up about anything and moving on are very, very slim. And true to form, he's already talking about var vindictive moves and investigate the investigators. And, you know, his advisors are demanding that Schiff be removed from his chairmanship of the Intelligence Committee. And so it wouldn't surprise me if this is a strategy that the president wishes to pursue again. It's a strategy that is very compatible with his overall approach of appealing to his own supporters and to maximum, divisiveness in American politics.

David Remnick (11:11)

Has Barr's summary affected Trump's poll ratings at all?

Susan Glasser (11:17)

Well, there was just one poll out this morning that I saw so far, which suggested that the answer to that is no.

David Remnick (11:23)

But still, I have to say his odds of being reelected are substantial, don't you think? Both of you?

Susan Glasser (11:31)

I do, yes.

David Remnick (11:33)

Masha, you recently wrote of the Mueller report, at least what we know of it so far, that we've overlooked a lot of things that we've been so obsessed with the Mueller process, which was mainly done in secret. What has been lost? What have we not been talking about enough? And what is the necessary reset politically, intellectually, in terms of what the media should be examining and thinking about?

Masha Gessen (11:59)

Well, you know, I had this very strange moment last week. I happened to be in Leipzig at the opening of the book fair in Leipzig, and I was told it was going to be seated in the front row. And I was warned that it was going to be a long evening because there were going to be five political speeches before the writers got to speak.

David Remnick (12:20)

And your heart sank?

Masha Gessen (12:21)

My heart sank because I thought, you know, I just flew in, I'm going to fall asleep in the front row. And then these people started going up, and each one of them gave a speech that was substantive, that was urgent. They all talked about things that were clearly on everybody's mind, like the crisis of the European project and the rise of the populist right in Europe and the importance of the written word and the storytelling. At a time like this, I thought, oh, my God, these people are speaking and they're addressing the public sphere as though it mattered. And didn't that used to happen in the United States just fairly recently? And, you know, I'm not claiming that we were living in democratic paradise, and then all of a sudden, Donald Trump came and broke all our toys. I mean, I think their political conversation has been in decline for quite some time, but I think there is a kind of leap into the abyss that somehow we missed.

David Remnick (13:23)

But hang on, really. I mean, how much ink was spilled and pixels created and broadcast discussion about the authoritarian nature of Donald Trump, about the many bureaucracies that he's degraded in a reactionary direction, about his effect on climate change or any number of issues? Have we really ignored these?

Masha Gessen (13:48)

No, I don't think we've ignored them. I think, you know, I've seen this movie before. And meaning what? Meaning sort of the degradation of politics.

David Remnick (13:59)

In Russia or here in Russia. Yeah.

Masha Gessen (14:02)

And I think what happens is that you get very scared because something happens, and then, you know, the sun rises the next day.

David Remnick (14:10)

That's what the word normalization means.

Masha Gessen (14:11)

That is exactly.

Susan Glasser (14:12)

It's the boiling frog.

Masha Gessen (14:14)

It is the Boiling frog syndrome. But, you know, but all of us are participants in this process. And I think my dream is that instead of writing an ongoing story about the Mueller investigation that consists of connecting the dots on a daily basis and trying to put together leaks on a daily basis, I wish we were writing this story on a daily basis. What I think is missing is an ongoing narrative. It's a much harder narrative to construct. I don't know how you make it interesting on a daily basis.

David Remnick (14:45)

Susan.

Susan Glasser (14:46)

Well, I mean, look, Masha, I'm very sympathetic on the one hand, to the idea that there has been this almost a feeling of like, this is some kind of crazy bad dream. This isn't American politics as I know it. You know, many people, when you talk to them, right, they articulate this idea. Like, every morning I have to wake up and check myself, you know, is this really happening in America? So I understand that there was an element of a sort of Mueller redemption fantasy. But if you actually look at, you know, the coverage, that is not really what was at the heart of the very good, I think, and very important reporting on this. I think that we have been covering this as an ongoing unrolling of Trump's challenges to our core institutions and to essentially basic norms of democracy. Right? I mean, that is the ongoing daily drama of the Trump presidency. And because the Mueller investigation was mostly in secret, in fact, it wasn't that we were covering, say, public hearings a la Iran Contra, in lieu of covering those daily extraordinary things from Trump. I do think that we are accommodating ourselves to extraordinary changes in our political system that are more significant than people like to believe. In many ways, I find as worrisome the current notion, well, our institutions have held. It'll snap back whenever he leaves. I find that narrative as worrisome as the kind of Mueller's gonna save us narrative, which I actually think is a little bit of a strawman.

David Remnick (16:34)

Susan Glasser and Masha Gessen, both staff writers at the New Yorker, you can find everything they've written on Trump, Russia, Mueller, you name it, @newyorker.com and I'm David Remnick. That's the show for today. I want to thank you for listening, and I hope you'll join us next time.

Narrator (16:55)

The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co production of WNYC Studios and the New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbus of Toon Yards, with additional music by Alexis Quadrado. Our team includes Alex Barron, Emily Bottin, Ave Carrillo, Rhiannon Corby, Jill Duboff, Karen Frillman, Kalalea, David Krasnow, Caroline Lester, Louis Mitchell, Sarah Nix and Steven Valentino, with help from Emily Mann and Jessica Henderson. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Cherina Endowment Fund.