Podcast Summary: "Has the Mueller Report Changed Anything?"

Podcast: The New Yorker Radio Hour
Host: David Remnick
Guests: Susan Glasser and Masha Gessen (New Yorker staff writers)
Date: March 29, 2019
Main Theme:
A timely reflection and analysis on the release of the Mueller Report, its implications for the Trump presidency, American political culture, and the wider media and public discourse. The episode interrogates whether anything—politically, culturally, or in terms of public understanding—has truly changed as a result of the investigation.

Main Discussion Points & Insights

The Great Expectations and Ambivalence of the Mueller Report

• Two Years of "Obsession": Both Democrats and Republicans viewed the investigation almost mythically—Democrats as their potential savior, Republicans as a witch hunt. (00:10-01:20)
• Unexpected Outcome: The report didn’t fully exonerate the president, yet brought no new indictments, leading to widespread ambivalence. (00:55-01:15)

"Not everyone was expecting the ambivalence of the document that Mueller delivered. There were no new indictments, but nor did it completely exonerate the president." – David Remnick (00:10-01:20)

Masha Gessen’s Perspective: Trumpism and American Political Reality

• Caution Against Magical Thinking: Belief that the Mueller report would remove Trump was a fantasy, diverting attention from Trump as an "American phenomenon" rather than purely a Russian creation. (01:46-02:39)
• On Collusion: Gessen doubted the feasibility of any elaborate, nefarious collusion plot, citing overstatements by American observers about Russian capabilities. (03:08-03:36)
• A Hustle, Not a Master Plan: The interactions were “a bunch of hustlers... trying to sell something to both sides.” (03:36-04:07)

"What has really bothered me is that engaging in that magical thinking happens at the expense of looking at Trump as an American phenomenon." – Masha Gessen (02:30)
"You're overestimating these guys." – Masha Gessen, on perceptions of Russian capabilities (03:08)

Susan Glasser’s Analysis: Definitions and Public Credibility

• The Elusive Definition of Collusion: Different parties define 'collusion' differently, and the public still lacks clarity on Mueller’s criteria. (05:03-06:10)
• Real, Documented Interactions: Even without direct evidence of a criminal conspiracy, Trump campaign actions (especially about lifting Russian sanctions) are clearly documented and raise serious suspicions. (06:10-07:10)

"Adam Schiff's version of collusion is different than Donald Trump's version of collusion. And we don't know what Mueller's version is." – Susan Glasser (05:07)

The Role and Failure of the Media

• WMD Analogy and Press Critique: The notion that the press’s handling of the Mueller story is as flawed as its WMD coverage—a critique Masha Gessen finds unhelpful, but she recognizes that "expectation of the magic bullet" was destructive. (07:21-08:17)
• Problems with Anonymous Sources: Gessen emphasizes the issue with leaks and anonymous sources shaping the narrative, paralleling WMD reporting without direct, available evidence. (08:20-09:29)

"You're always reliant on anonymous sources. You're relying on leaks from intelligence officers, each of whom has an agenda and a narrative that you don't have access to." – Masha Gessen (08:21)

Can Trump Weaponize the Report?

• Strategy for 2020: Trump is likely to use the report as a tool against his critics. Unlike previous politicians, he isn't letting go, instead attacking those who led the investigation. (10:07-11:11)
• Republican Concerns: Even members of his own party urge Trump to move on, knowing he probably won’t. (10:10-10:40)

"The odds of him shutting up about anything and moving on are very, very slim." – Susan Glasser (10:31)

Polls and Electability

• No Immediate Shift in Approval Ratings: Initial polls show no improvement for Trump’s standing despite Barr’s summary. (11:17-11:23)
• Trump’s Reelection Prospects: Both guests agree his chances remain substantial. (11:23-11:33)

The Media and National Conversation: What’s Been Missed?

• Missed Topics: Gessen laments the decline of “substantive, urgent” political discourse, comparing recent U.S. discussion unfavorably to political conversations in Europe. She notes the U.S. has become fixated on the investigation rather than broader issues or institutional degradation. (11:59-12:21)
• Normalization and "Boiling Frog" Syndrome: Gessen refers to the gradual acceptance of extraordinary events as normal, warning that dangers are thus overlooked. (14:02-14:14)

"It is the Boiling frog syndrome. But you know, all of us are participants in this process." – Masha Gessen (14:14)

Glasser’s Counterpoint: Coverage of Trump’s Broader Challenge to Institutions

• Substantial Reporting Exists: Glasser argues that media coverage did, in fact, focus on ongoing threats to democratic norms, not just on Mueller. (14:46-15:40)
• The Real Drama: The essential story is how Trump’s presidency has continually challenged democratic institutions and norms. (14:46-16:00)

"We have been covering this as an ongoing unrolling of Trump's challenges to our core institutions and to essentially basic norms of democracy." – Susan Glasser (15:14)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Magical Thinking & American Reality:
  "There's a lot of magical thinking in that process," – Masha Gessen (02:00)

• Boiling Frog Syndrome:
  "It is the Boiling frog syndrome. But, you know, but all of us are participants in this process." – Masha Gessen (14:14)

Key Timestamps

• 00:10-01:20 – Introduction and the stakes of the Mueller investigation
• 01:27-02:39 – Gessen’s warning against “magical thinking” and perspective on Trump
• 05:03-06:10 – Glasser on varying definitions of 'collusion'
• 07:21-09:29 – Discussion of media failures, anonymous sources, and press responsibility
• 10:07-11:11 – Trump potentially weaponizing the report for 2020
• 11:59-12:21 – Gessen on decline of public discourse compared to Europe
• 14:02-14:14 – Normalization/Boiling frog syndrome

Conclusion

The episode offers a nuanced, richly detailed look at the aftermath of the Mueller Report—challenging the idea that its release is an absolute turning point. The conversation urges listeners to reckon with both the strengths and the distortions in American political life and the media, emphasizing the dangers of “magical thinking,” the need for accountability, and the importance of wider, more substantive engagement with democracy’s challenges beyond the headlines of any single investigation.