How “Saturday Night Live” Reinvented Television, Fifty Years Ago

Summary

The New Yorker Radio Hour: How “Saturday Night Live” Reinvented Television, Fifty Years Ago

Released January 24, 2025

Hosts and Contributors:

• David Remnick – Host
• Susan Morrison – Author of The Man Who Invented Saturday Night Live, New Yorker editor
• Tina Fey – Featured Voice
• Jason Adam Katzenstein – Featured Voice

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Introduction to “Saturday Night Live” (SNL)

David Remnick opens the episode by contextualizing the enduring legacy of Saturday Night Live, a seminal comedy program that debuted in 1975. He highlights how SNL has become a cornerstone of American comedy, influencing countless comedians over the past fifty years.

Notable Quote:

“It has become such an institution you can barely think of a comedian in the last half-century who didn't go through SNL as a writer or as a performer.” – David Remnick [00:51]

Early Reception and Critical Analysis

Remnick introduces a historical perspective by featuring Tina Fey reading from a 1975 New Yorker review by Michael Arlin. This review underscores SNL's departure from the conventional, polished language of celebrity shows, emphasizing its raw and authentic comedic spirit.

Key Points:

• SNL contrasted sharply with the era's standard celebrity public relations language.
• The show's format included skits, songs, and monologues that resonated with contemporary audiences.
• Early sketches parodied political figures, news programs, and popular culture, setting the tone for SNL's irreverent style.

Notable Quote:

“Much of the appeal of Saturday Night lies in its contrast with this ubiquitous show business language.” – Michael Arlin via Tina Fey [01:37]

The Vision of Lorne Michaels

Susan Morrison, author of The Man Who Invented Saturday Night Live, delves into the pivotal role of Lorne Michaels in shaping SNL. She discusses Michaels' Canadian roots, his initial skepticism about relocating to New York, and his determination to revolutionize television comedy.

Key Points:

• Lorne Michaels promised NBC a show unlike any other, rooted in authenticity and relevance.
• His background included writing for a diverse array of entertainers, equipping him to craft a unique comedic platform.
• Michaels emphasized keeping the show current, continuously refreshing the cast to maintain its edge.

Notable Quote:

“He wanted the show to stay current. He paid attention to replenishing the casts in a sort of seamless way so that it would never seem like an old guy trying to do an entertainment for young people.” – Susan Morrison [12:23]

SNL’s Cultural Impact and Evolution

Morrison and Remnick explore how SNL emerged as a counterbalance to the conservative programming of the time, such as The Brady Bunch and Lawrence Welk. They emphasize SNL's role in reflecting and shaping societal changes, particularly in the realms of politics, music, and cultural norms.

Key Points:

• SNL introduced edgy topics like drugs, romance, and politics into mainstream comedy.
• The show served as a platform for new comedy styles, diverging from the sanitized humor of previous decades.
• SNL's ability to adapt to cultural shifts has been crucial to its longevity.

Notable Quote:

“He thought, God, television is just a backwater. You know, the movies, you know, you had John Castavetes and Terrence Malick, you're really pushing into new territory.” – Susan Morrison [14:37]

Behind the Scenes: SNL's Production and Lorne's Leadership

The discussion shifts to the meticulous production process of SNL. Morrison explains how Michaels maintains a disciplined yet creative environment, balancing structured timelines with the necessary "goofing around" that fosters innovative comedy.

Key Points:

• SNL operates on a tight weekly schedule, requiring efficient collaboration among writers, performers, and production staff.
• Michaels is heavily involved in every aspect of the show, from Monday meetings to final rehearsals.
• The live nature of the show demands strict adherence to scripts and schedules, limiting improvisation.

Notable Quote:

“Within that incredibly tight framework, there is just this amount of foolery...that’s the petri dish. That's a medium you need for comedy.” – Susan Morrison [32:05]

Lorne Michaels' Management Style and SNL’s Unique Culture

Morrison provides insights into Michaels' enigmatic presence and his approach to leadership. She describes how Michaels cultivates a mystique, balancing authority with a humorous rapport with his team, which contributes to the show's distinctive culture.

Key Points:

• Michaels prefers to remain behind the scenes, allowing the ensemble to shine while maintaining control over the show's direction.
• His management style includes selective praise and maintaining an air of inscrutability, keeping the team motivated and slightly off-balance.
• The culture encourages creativity and mutual respect, fostering an environment where comedians can thrive.

Notable Quote:

“He creates a culture with walls around it where they can be that.” – Tina Fey [31:15]

SNL’s Resilience and Ongoing Relevance

As the show celebrates its 50th anniversary, Morrison reflects on SNL's ability to stay relevant through decades of societal changes. She addresses critiques about the show's political stance, asserting that Michaels continues to push boundaries by targeting both liberal and conservative figures.

Key Points:

• SNL adapts to contemporary issues, ensuring its sketches remain pertinent and engaging.
• Michaels emphasizes inclusivity in comedy, resisting alignment with any single political ideology.
• The show’s format allows for modular consumption, catering to modern viewing habits such as watching clips online.

Notable Quote:

“There's a fame...you watch a sketch on the phone, on the subway, you watch it.” – Susan Morrison [39:11]

Challenges and the Future of SNL

The conversation touches on the speculation surrounding Michaels' eventual succession. Morrison expresses confidence in Michaels' continued leadership but also explores possible scenarios for the show's future without him.

Key Points:

• Michaels shows no signs of retiring, maintaining a hands-on role in the show's ongoing success.
• Succession plans remain uncertain, with potential internal candidates like Seth Meyers and Colin Jost being discussed.
• The show's profitability and cultural significance suggest it will endure, though its future leadership remains a topic of interest.

Notable Quote:

“I think he feels there was kind of a continuity.” – Susan Morrison [10:55]

Conclusion: SNL’s Enduring Legacy

Remnick and Morrison conclude by reiterating SNL’s significant impact on television and comedy, celebrating its half-century milestone. They underscore the show’s role in launching careers, reflecting societal changes, and maintaining a dynamic and influential presence in the entertainment industry.

Key Points:

• SNL remains a vital platform for emerging talent and innovative comedy.
• Its ability to evolve with the times has secured its place in television history.
• As SNL approaches its 50th year, its legacy continues to inspire and shape the landscape of modern comedy.

Notable Quote:

“It is a direct and funny show which seems to speak out of the real non show business world that most people inhabit.” – David Remnick [04:58]

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Additional Content Excluded:

• Advertisements and sponsor messages
• Introductory and concluding remarks unrelated to main content
• Non-content segments such as other podcast promotions

Production Credits: Produced by Max Bolton, Adam Howard, David Krasnow, Jeffrey Masters, Louis Mitchell, Jared Paul, and Ursula Sommer. Special assistance by Jonathan Mitchell, Emily Bottin, Michael May, David Gable, Alex Barish, Victor Gwan, and Alejandra Deckett.

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For further insights and detailed analysis, listen to the full episode of The New Yorker Radio Hour.

Transcript

[David Remnick]

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, Monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported by FSG presenting A Life, a biography by Jonathan Eig with new research that affirms Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. S legacy as a deep thinker, strategist and historical leader. A Life is now in paperback.

[Susan Morrison]

Listener Support WNYC Studios.

[David Remnick]

This is the.

New Yorker Radio Hour, a co production of WNYC Studios and the New Yorker.

Welcome to the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick.

This is probably as good a time as any to say a few words about an appealing new comedy program called Saturday Night, which is broadcast at 11:30 each Saturday night by NBC and is definitely not to be confused with Saturday Night Live with Howard Cosell, which comes on earlier in the evening on ABC.

In 1975, the New Yorker reviewed a new television show that aimed pretty deliberately to redefine comedy, and it came to be called Saturday Night Live, starring the.

[Tina Fey]

Not Ready for Prime Time players, Dan Aykroyd.

[David Remnick]

The cast was a bunch of unknowns, Dan Aykroyd, Gilda Radner, Chevy Chase, John Belushi. But it became such an institution you can barely think of a comedian in the last half century who didn't go through SNL as a writer or as a performer. Here's Tina Fey reading from the review by Michael Arlin, the New Yorker's television critic at the time, published just after the show's debut.

The COsell show and NBC's Saturday Night are both mainly live, but there is a crucial difference between the two programs. Cosell's show depends on that strange fantasy language of celebrity public relations which has been concocted by mass entertainment producers and stars. It is the language of kisses blown, of God bless yous, of this wonderful human being, of a sensational performer, my very dear personal friend, and of you're just a beautiful audience. In short, the language of celebrity hype, perhaps a contemporary equivalent of dandyism and powdered wigs. Much of the appeal of Saturday Night lies in its contrast with this ubiquitous show business language.

[Tina Fey]

Talk about a live show.

[David Remnick]

Its format, like that of most comedy programs, consists of a familiar assembly of skits, songs and monologues, but the spirit of the material is in opposition to conventional show business.

[Susan Morrison]

Football is kind of nice.

[David Remnick]

They changed it a little bit. They moved the hash marks in.

[Tina Fey]

Guys found them and smoked them anyway.

[David Remnick]

The hosts don't do very much in the way of hosting in the conventional TV manner of promoting themselves or the guests, but are content mainly to sit around providing a periodic focus for the loosely tied together skits and sometimes telling a story or two. Skit humor usually defies cold description, so I won't try much of it here.

[Susan Morrison]

Good evening. This is Candice Bergen reporting from one of those little third world countries and I'm talking to the ruler of that.

[David Remnick]

Country on the recent Saturday with Candice Bergen as host. The show began with a not very brilliant takeoff of a presidential news conference which showed the actor impersonating President Ford, bumping his head on the lectern, fumbling with his drinking water and repeatedly falling down.

[Tina Fey]

Have two major announcements to make.

[David Remnick]

But then there was a crisply done parody of a TV news program concluding with a lunatic news for the hard of hearing, which consisted of a newsman yelling items of news very loud.

[Tina Fey]

Our top story tonight.

[David Remnick]

Also a takeoff of a black perspective program with the black host attempting to interview a harebrained white girl on the subject of a book she had just written about black ghetto life. Also an amiable but fairly juvenile parody of Jaws. Also a skit by a fine young comedian, Andy Kaufman, about a TV guest who couldn't manage to perform properly or at all, and so forth. I would like to imitate Archie Bunker.

You stupid.

[Jason Adam Katzenstein]

You are so stupid. Everybody stupid. Get out of my chair, Mithead.

[David Remnick]

For the most part in the past 20 years, commercial television has largely ignored the important new trends in modern comedy. Whether as a result of the caution of advertisers or of the personal prejudices of network bosses, Mass entertainment television comedy has been firmly rooted in the past, a synthetic Hollywood style show business past. Despite the fact that the new forms of comedy have demonstrated a considerable popular appeal, it's not a matter of wishing to replace Bob Hope with an elitist in group kind of humor. The popular audience continues to adore Bob Hope. But it is also true that for years substantial segments of this same popular audience have been sneaking away in droves from its hoopla show business comedy hours in order to commune with the rising number of lesser known, more personal, more political, more sexual comedians. Thus, what is noteworthy about Saturday night and why I commend it is not the result of any spectacular star studded brilliance on its part. Indeed, it has no real stars, though I hope that the ensemble of actor comics who perform most of the skits will make individual names for themselves. It is, as the saying goes, an uneven program with ups and downs and too many commercial breaks. But it is a direct and funny show which seems to speak out of the real non show business world that most people inhabit. And it exists. One wonders without expecting an answer, what took it so long? One wonders too, what simple human pleasures the simple human TV viewer might someday conceivably experience if network television that grinning, gun toting, wisecracking, you're just a beautiful audience. Still youthful courtesan should ever start peeling off the rest of the cosmetics.

Tina Fey reading from the New Yorker's review of Saturday Night Live from 1975. That's an excerpt, and you can find Michael arlin's [e-mail] now we don't normally know the producers of television shows, but Saturday Night Live is a real exception to that rule. Lorne Michaels was a Canadian who had been writing comedy shows in la, and he had a very specific idea about what he wanted to do in comedy. He promised NBC executives that his show would be different, very different than anything else on television. Michaels has always been full of maxims and rules about comedy, and over the years he cultivated a kind of mystique on the show. Lorne Michaels also doesn't like to talk to the press very much. So a new book by Susan Morrison about Michaels sheds a lot of light on one of the most important people in show business in our time. Susan spent years talking to Michaels when she wasn't at her day job as an editor at the New Yorker. Susan, I don't want you to give away your age or mine, but what's your first memory of watching your Saturday Night Live?

[Susan Morrison]

I definitely watched it in the first season, but my chief first memory is being at this show in the first season 50 years ago. 50 years ago we got in, we sat right next to the stage in Studio 8H and it was Elliott Gould and Leon Redbone. What I really remembered was the kind of strange thrill of sitting in a working television studio with sets being hustled by you and cameras on, cranes flying over your head. So what really hit me was the kind of strange deconstructed aspect of it. I'm sure I didn't get most of the comedy.

[David Remnick]

So let's start from the beginning of the beginning. You've been an editor at the New Yorker for a long time. Why write about Lorne Michaels, somebody who people think they know who he is, but maybe they only see him as a kind of fleeting image once in a While on a show on a Saturday night.

[Susan Morrison]

My first job in New York City was working for Lorne on his one big public failure. It was a show called the New show that was a primetime kind of quasi version of SNL on NBC. And the show flopped terribly. But it opened the world to me in a very interesting way. And, you know, I would say hi to Lorne. And so I always was interested in the culture. And around the time of SNL's 40th anniversary ten years ago, I was a new empty nester. And I had the preposterous idea that I was suddenly going to have a lot of free time. So I went to Lauren, who knew me a bit, and told him, I've signed a contract with Random House to write a book about you. I don't need anything from you because, you know, I'm familiar with your world and your friends and these people. But it would be a better book if you wanted to be involved. And after looking like he was gonna pass out for taking a few deep breaths, he loves the New Yorker. He agreed to give me a lot of time and open a lot of doors. A lot of people don't know that in the very first season of snl, the New Yorker's famous writer, Lillian Ross, and William Shawn, the editor of this magazine, showed up at the show one day because they were huge rich and they loved Lorne, and they kind of took him under their wing and showed him around town. He didn't really know New York at the time.

[David Remnick]

He's Canadian.

[Susan Morrison]

He's Canadian. And he had been in la, and so he learned a lot from them, and they learned a lot from him. A lot of people don't know that William Shawn was a real comedy nerd. And in his later years, his favorite film was this is Spinal Tap.

[David Remnick]

Wait, I have to absorb that. You know, the stereotype of him or the caricature of him was very buttoned up, let's just say. And that was his favorite.

[Susan Morrison]

He loved it. Yeah.

[David Remnick]

Incidentally, after Shawn was deposed in the mid-80s, there was this thought that entered Lorne Michaels head at some point that he would succeed William Shawn as the editor of the New Yorker. I want to know everything about that.

[Susan Morrison]

Sean was a mentor. If you think about our two enterprises 50 years apart, the New Yorker's 100, SNL is now 50. A lot of what these guys do is very similar. They're corralling a gang of needy egos, figuring out how to keep the thing afloat. Every week, once a week, they have to say no more than they can say. Yes. Sean talked a lot to Lorne about succession. And it turned out that Sean didn't manage his own succession terribly well.

[David Remnick]

No. And was under the delusion that he would go on forever somewhere.

[Susan Morrison]

And so Lauren, definitely he got this idea that he would perhaps be asked to step into Shawn's shoes. So I think when I came along, part of the New Yorker wanting to write this book, I think a penny dropped with Lorne. And he felt there was kind of a continuity.

[David Remnick]

What's been its cultural import and importance and why has it been able to last this long?

[Susan Morrison]

Well, in the beginning, it really was renegade. It started at a time when television was the Brady Bunch and Lawrence Welk. And because it was on at 11:30 late night, that time slot was like a vacant lot at the edge of town. No executives paid attention to it. No one gave notes. They could do whatever they wanted. But I think the reason it's lasted is that Lorne, he had a lot of really oddball jobs in la, writing for people from Phyllis Diller to Perry Como to Flip Wilson and a lot of schlock. It was that strange period of the early 70s when some of television felt like the 60s, some felt like the 50s. It was. Dean Martin would have the Stones on his variety show just almost out of obligation and, you know, would introduce them in this disparaging way, saying, like, I've been rolled and I've been stoned, but I've never seen any.

[David Remnick]

Right. And even Ed Sullivan didn't seem entirely comfortable with the Beatles and rock and roll on his Sunday night show.

[Susan Morrison]

Exactly. So the reason I bring this up is that I think Lauren was a real student of what I call sort of the hinges between eras.

[Tina Fey]

When the music changes, you have to change. You know, by 1968, you can't do Love Me do, which worked perfectly in 1965. And we're. It's Vietnam. It's. We're in the writing offices when they raid Patty Hearst's SINQ thing, you know, gunfire, and they kill. You know, all of that chaos in 74, we're watching Watergate every day.

[Susan Morrison]

You know, it's like he noticed how one time slid into another. And I think he was always determined to not be that, you know, the grandmother with a hula hoop. He wanted the show to stay current. He paid attention to replenishing the casts in a sort of seamless way so that it would never seem like an old guy trying to do an entertainment for young people.

[David Remnick]

So in a way, the show, which was Replacing Dead Air on Saturday night, kind of replacing a Johnny Carson repeat on the weekend, was to become itself rock and roll as well as just the guests being rock and roll.

[Susan Morrison]

Yeah, definitely. I mean, Lorne, when he was toiling in LA at these kind of lame shows, writing for Perry Como a bunch of times, he thought, God, television is just a backwater. You know, the movies, you know, you had John Castavetes and Terrence Malick, you're really pushing into new territory. And rock and roll was so exciting. And television was, you know, it was still the boob tube. And he was determined to help television catch up.

[David Remnick]

Why did he want to have this be in our capitol?

[Susan Morrison]

When he finally got an offer from NBC to come to New York and make this show, he almost said no. He didn't want to come to New York. He wanted to do it in California. NBC's president, Herb Schlosser, wanted to do this show out of Rockefeller center, which was Deadsville. Lawrence said, you know, there were deer running in the halls back then. At that time, New York was on the brink of bankruptcy. Crime everywhere, graffiti everywhere. It was very cold. Remember, this is a furrier son from Canada. He wasn't eager to get back into that climate, and he considered New York the anxiety capital of the world. But he decided it was worth it to make the show that he'd always dreamed of.

[David Remnick]

And what is the show that he always dreamed of? What was it based on and how is it unique?

[Susan Morrison]

What it is? It's a combination of comedy sketches that reflect kind of real world 1970s preoccupations, politics, short films, rock music. If you were to compare it to, say, Carol Burnett, which was a popular, huge hit show at the time, which I as a kid adored. That was for an older generation. Their pieces were about, you know, the PTA and alcoholism and parents in the suburbs getting the garage door to work. I mean, Lauren wanted the show to be about drugs and romance and sex and just wanted it to be for his generation.

[David Remnick]

So, Susan, now, when we see Lorne Michaels in those little snippets on Saturday Night Live, he's wearing an exquisite suit and. And he's a guy of a certain age. But he did have one big moment in the show's first season. This is from 1975.

[Tina Fey]

Hi, I'm Lorne Michaels, the producer of Saturday Night. Right now we're being seen by approximately 22 million viewers. But please allow me, if I may, to address myself to four very special people. John, Paul, George and Ringo. The Beatles. Lately, there have been a lot of rumors to the effect that the four of you might be getting back together. That would be great. In my book, the Beatles are the best thing that ever happened to music. Well, if it's money you want, there's no problem here. The National Broadcasting Company has authorized me to offer you a Certified check for $3,000. This check here is made out to the Beatles. You divide it any way you want. If you want to give Ringo lessons.

[Susan Morrison]

That'S up to you. I mean, first of all, it's an incredibly funny bit and it was Lauren's idea, but it was an example of what Lauren calls the show itself. Speaking One of the things that was very unusual about early SNL or SNL now is the meta aspect. The sort of taking apart the show and looking behind the scenes of the show. Be part of the action.

[David Remnick]

I'm talking with the New Yorker's Susan Morrison. Her new book is titled the man who Invented Saturday Night Live. And we'll continue our conversation in just a moment. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour.

[Susan Morrison]

Live from New York. It's Saturday night.

[David Remnick]

WNYC Studios is supported by Hydro.

[Jason Adam Katzenstein]

Hi, I'm Jason Adam Katzenstein and I'm a cartoonist for the New Yorker. Something that I like to do is to stay home because home is where you can wear sweatpants and watch movies. Another benefit of home is that you don't have to be perceived by other people. But I do like feeling healthy and having endorphins and also I need my muscles to be huge so that I can draw those cartoons. And this, dear listeners, is what I love about the Hydro rowing machine because now I can have the workout of an outdoorsman while being an indoorsman and you get to do the workout equivalent of staying in and watching a movie. But in this case you have that little TV hooked up to the hydro and you get workouts that are led by Olympians and world class athletes. Also, the hydro is low impact which means minimal risk of injury and that is great news for me personally because I am very injury prone. Kick off the new year with a full body workout all from the comfort of home with hydro. Head over to hydro.com and use code New Yorker to save up $475 off your Hydro Pro Rower. That's H Y-R-O-W.com code New Yorker to save up to $475 hydro.com code New Yorker. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported by Rocket Money. The start of a new year is the perfect time to get organized, set goals and prioritize what matters most One common top priority for many of us is financial wellness. Thanks to Rocket Money, financial goals can feel achievable. They show you all of your subscriptions right in one place and pull together spending across different accounts to track spending habits. Rocket Money's dashboard also gives you a clear view of your expenses across all of your accounts and can help you easily create a personalized budget with custom categories to help keep your spending on track. Whether your goal is to pay off credit card debt, put away money for a house, or just build your savings, Rocket Money makes it easy. Rocket Money has over 5 million users and has saved users a total of $500 million in canceled subscriptions. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Just go to rocketmoney.com nyrh today that's rocketmoney.com nyrh.

[David Remnick]

Here'S a way you can.

[Susan Morrison]

Support WNYC in our centennial years.

[David Remnick]

Donate your used car.

[Susan Morrison]

We'll turn your old car into the news and conversation that we've been serving.

[David Remnick]

To the community for over 100 years.

[Susan Morrison]

Many listeners have already donated their cars to WNYC. It's an easy way to support the.

[David Remnick]

Station and you'll get a tax deduction.

[Susan Morrison]

Learn [e-mail] car.

[David Remnick]

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[Jason Adam Katzenstein]

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[David Remnick]

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[Jason Adam Katzenstein]

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[David Remnick]

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[Jason Adam Katzenstein]

Visit sponsorship.wnyc.org.

[David Remnick]

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. I've been Talking about the 50th anniversary this year of Saturday Night Live with Susan Morrison. Susan's my longtime colleague at the New Yorker and the author of a new book about the producer Lorne Michaels. Michaels launched Saturday night live in 1975 as a brash young man of 30. He's still running the show with an iron hand 50 years later. As a producer, Michael stays largely behind the scenes, but he's cultivated a character, a larger than life personality, which is catnip for the comedians who have worked for him over the years.

[Susan Morrison]

When I was researching this book, I remember asking Alec Baldwin, so who do you think does the best Lauren. Because, as you say, a lot of the people on the show impersonate Lauren. And Alex said lorne. And you know, David, I hope I'm not the first to tell you that there are a lot of pretty good David Remnick impersonations around this place. But, you know, it's a way to blow off steam. And it has to do with what you were saying before about people having this strange fascination with Lauren and trying to figure him out.

[David Remnick]

Well, let's listen. We grabbed a few Lauren imitations from Bill Hader, Jimmy Fallon, Seth Meyers, Dana Carvey, and Mike Myers, too. Yeah.

[Jason Adam Katzenstein]

So one would be like, I went.

[Tina Fey]

To Kansas City with Alec and Marcy to try to get BTK Killer off death row.

[Susan Morrison]

They said, here comes btk.

[David Remnick]

I go, you know, his name's Dennis.

[Tina Fey]

Just go in to the room.

[David Remnick]

And.

[Tina Fey]

Just.

[David Remnick]

Somebody walks you out of the office.

[Susan Morrison]

I do the.

[Tina Fey]

No, no, no, no, no. I know.

[Susan Morrison]

Like, that is. No matter what you tell him, he knows it already. He's the authority. No, no, no, no, no. I know, I know.

[Tina Fey]

We're going to meditate. After read through, your mantra will be lorn.

[Jason Adam Katzenstein]

It'll be groups.

[Susan Morrison]

Then we'll face the sun and ask.

[Tina Fey]

For forgiveness of our sins.

[Susan Morrison]

We get the warhead and we hold the world ra.

[Tina Fey]

$1 million.

[David Remnick]

Now, I didn't know initially that Dr. Evil was based on Lorne Michaels.

[Susan Morrison]

Dr. Evil originated with an impression that Dana Carvey used to do sitting in the makeup chair at SNL wearing the bald wig, you know, while he was waiting, his George Bush wig before he went out to do his George Bush impersonation. And he used to do this funny impersonation of Lorne. And, you know, he's a particular cadence. Sometimes it's kind of pretentious, bloviating. And so Dana Carvey, the first time he saw Austin Powers, he saw his own Lauren impersonation. When Dr. Evil appeared on the screen, he didn't know that Mike Myers did it. Mike Myers is one of the people who did not do Lorne impersonation around the office.

[David Remnick]

That's hilarious.

[Susan Morrison]

And complete with the pinky to the lips, which.

[David Remnick]

That's a Lorne Michaels things too.

[Susan Morrison]

Well, Dana. Dana took the pinky thing. It's an exaggerated form of how Lauren, I think, sometimes would bite his nails, like at read through. When I asked Lauren about this, though, he said, well, in terms of fingers, I might be more thumb.

[David Remnick]

Wow.

[Tina Fey]

People go, well, does it bother you that everybody does an impression? And I go, no, because that's the most American thing there is, which is people make fun of the boss, you know, so they don't do that in Canada, I don't know. But in Canada, I don't know, because nobody's ever that successful. But I think that what happened. What happened with it is people tell stories about me and then they take on a mythic thing and then they become true.

[David Remnick]

He's got a mystique. And what you're saying is that he's cultivated this mystique. What is the nature of it and what kind of hold does he have on the people he works with?

[Susan Morrison]

Anything that begins as a kind of anti establishment renegade thing like snl. And I'm thinking of Rolling Stone also, which began a little bit before that. The magazine, as it gets successful, you know, it's tough to stay a renegade and be making gazillions of dollars. One of the ways Lorne, I think, dealt with that, consciously or not, was by playing into that with his character as this kind of bored, self satisfied, Pasha kind of character. You know, he. In some ways, you know, he plays his cards close to the vest. He's. He is inscrutable. He can be aloof. People are always saying that he is stinting with sort of obvious praise. Like if you go out there and you kill in a sketch, he's not gonna say at the Monday meeting, that was fantastic. But he would single out somebody who had like a tiny role and he'd say, you know, you were breathtaking as the third cop. So he. You keep people off balance a little bit.

[David Remnick]

It seems like everybody there is even years after starting to work with him, kind of terrified of him. And he tells them how to live.

[Tina Fey]

I said, get yourself an apartment you don't believe you deserve. So when you're. After you've worked 14, 15 hours, you get to your door and you go, who lives here? This is amazing. And you go, you do. And you feel good about yourself and the fear that it will all go away, which your parents are giving you. I'm telling you, it won't go away. And I'm your boss and I can tell you that we'll be here next year or the year after, and the year after that. And you will only make more money each year. So treat yourself well, because it's the beginning of how you can adjust to other levels of show business.

[David Remnick]

He also has rules for comedy itself. And you get into this in the book, and I think it's absolutely fascinating. What are those rules?

[Susan Morrison]

One that a lot of people talk about is do it in sunshine. And what that means is don't forget that comedy is supposed to be an entertainment. He's always warning, especially young people against going for kind of a gritty indie vibe. If you think about the posters for the movies he produces, like Wayne's World and many, many, they're very often the character standing against a bright blue sky dotted with puffy white clouds. He Lauren says, never have a coffin in a sketch. You just. You don't want to bring people down.

[David Remnick]

So even while he's ostensibly being politically at least, oppositional to the moment, it's never that renegade.

[Susan Morrison]

One of the things that I think Lauren sometimes has difficulty with in our age is that from the beginning, his idea was that you wanted to be needling who's ever in power. The show would make fun of Jimmy Carter. The show made fun of Bill Clinton, all kinds of Democrats as well as Republicans. And I think that's one way that he and the show think of themselves as differing from some other kind of political talk shows and comedy shows.

[David Remnick]

Do you think it's gotten more politically toothless over the years? That's been some of the critique of it.

[Susan Morrison]

I think that Lorne is always pushing his people to make fun of liberals as well as conservatives. And in the current climate, which is something we say here all the time at the New Yorker about our own younger staff members, that's much harder to do. I don't think that the show has gotten more politically toothless. I think, if anything, we live in this kind of cataclysmic time where I think people feel that if they're not just going after kind of Maga Trump Republicans and treating that they're not doing right, that they're gonna go to hell. And that kind of an attitude is. That's oppositional to comedy, I think.

[David Remnick]

Right.

[Susan Morrison]

There's a term, Seth Meyers coined it called clapter. And that means when you get an audience reaction, usually to a political joke which isn't laughing, but it's more this kind of. I agree with that sentiment. Kind of clapping, right? And that's not really something a real comedy.

[David Remnick]

And it's not satisfying.

[Susan Morrison]

Once it's not satisfying, a comedian really wants somebody to have this. You know, laughing is. It's an uncontrollable physical reaction. And that's really what you want.

[David Remnick]

Let's listen to Lorne Michaels talking about his culture that he established and his management style.

[Tina Fey]

There's an old Stanley Myron Handelman joke that I told the first time we got a Peabody. It used to Be a straight line that you could take 50 monkeys, put them in a room with typewriters, sooner or later they'd write the word Shakespeare. And his was, I left them in there, you know, and I checked. And then I came back and I realized they're just fooling around. My point with it is, is that's what we do. It looks like we're not doing anything because they're just throwing jokes around or whatever and you don't know. And they don't look serious and they don't look that. But you create a culture with walls around it where they can be that.

[David Remnick]

He's describing a process, and it's a weekly process and it has a rhythm to it every week. How does it take shape? How does the fooling around take shape?

[Susan Morrison]

From Monday to Saturday, like putting together an issue of the New. Every day of the week has a particular. There's something that has to get done that day. And Lorne says all the time, we don't go on because we're ready. We go on because it's 11:30. And so it is. Jim Downey, one of the show's most long term head writers, used to say that if you got a lot of Swiss engineers to try to look at everything that has to happen in a week in SNL and figure out how long it would take, they would say, oh, probably about 17 days to get these things done. You have six days. But so it is interesting that within that incredibly tight framework, there is just this amount of foolery, I mean, just goofing around. And that is because that's the petri dish. That's a medium you need for comedy. And that's a good portion of that, is them just making fun of Lorne.

[David Remnick]

You've been watching Saturday Night Live and studying it to some degree for 50 years, as long as it's been on. A lot of people talk about their favorite season. What is yours? Because it seems axiomatic that your favorite season is when.

[Susan Morrison]

Well, Lauren always says people, everyone says that their favorite season is when they were in high school. When I was in high school, as same with you was the first cast. But my favorite cast is, I love the sort of Bill Hader, Kristen Wiig, Armisen cast. I think they worked really tightly together. I think it was in a way, maybe as much as the original cast, like kind of the coolest cast, you know, and, you know, for somebody as old as he is and people make fun of him for this, Lauren really cares about cool. I also thought that the Amy Poehler Tina Fey cast, Will Ferrell cast. The thing is that, as you know, they all blend. And of course, the great Phil Hartman, Jan Hooks. That period was incredible.

[David Remnick]

There was a period somewhat early on that Lorne Michaels left the show. Why did he leave the show and what effect did it have?

[Susan Morrison]

Well, he had been doing the show for five years. It was punishing. They did many more shows a year then, and I think they were all just completely out of gas. They had lost. You know, first they lost Chevy, then they lost Belushi and Dan Aykroyd, and they were going on fumes. And Lorne, basically, he said, if I come back for the sixth season, it was just negotiation gone wrong. I need three or four months to regroup. I'm gonna need to hire a lot more people. I need to rest up. And the network said, we don't wanna do that. And in fact, the line was that they had sold the ads already in September and October. The next thing Lorne knew, they had hired somebody else to take over the show, which was a shocker to him because even though he didn't own the show, I think he had this idea it was his child. And the idea that NBC felt that they could carry it on without him took him by surprise. That was Jean Demanian. She had been the talent coordinator for the show. And she did a disastrous partial year which ended abruptly when one of her actors said fuck on the air. And then he was replaced by Dick Ebersol, who had been an NBC executive who had helped Lauren in the very beginning. And that kind of sputtered along for a few years until Lorne. In 85, Brandon Tartakoff asked Lauren to come back. He had had.

[David Remnick]

So he's in good negotiating position.

[Susan Morrison]

Yeah, well, they were gonna pull the show off the air. So at that point, it was really like, save your baby, come back and save it, or it's going nowhere.

[David Remnick]

What's the difference in his level of engagement and the way he lives his work life now? 80 things been on for 50 years, as opposed to 30, 40 years ago.

[Susan Morrison]

These days, he's in the office every day. But the really key, there's a Monday meeting where everybody meets the host. There is read through on Wednesday. And that's key. He's there, he listens to everything. And then he kind of picks the sketches that they're gonna proceed with with the help of a handful of deputies. And then it really is just Saturday night. That's the crucible. You know, he watches the dress rehearsal with the writers and his key deputies, and he Barks, commands, notes and changes all kinds of things that need to be fixed. And then just an hour before air, gathers the whole group and pretty much rips the show apart. And, I mean, we occasionally do this here at the magazine, but not that often.

[David Remnick]

But it doesn't come on live at an hour and a half, for an hour and a half.

[Susan Morrison]

Something that's really important that a lot of people don't understand is that because it's a live show, everything, you know, there can't be any surprises. So when something unscripted happens, like Sinead O'Connor tearing up a picture of the Pope on camera, or when Elvis Costello decides to switch songs two bars in to switch songs, you know, the myth out there is that those people are banned from the show because they did something without telling Lauren. But it's really about deference to the camera operators and the tech guys. And the discipline. Yeah, discipline. Just because everything has to be a certain number of seconds because then you have a commercial slot and it's live television. And if somebody tries to improvise or. In the first five years, Milton Berle was on the show and had all these ideas about just going off script and improvising drove everybody nuts. Because even though improv is a big part of at least comedy as we know it in 2025, this is a very tightly scripted show. It has to be, because it's live.

[David Remnick]

You've reached this point, 50 years of the show. Lorne Michaels is 80, and we wish him nothing but good health going forward. At some point, the discussion of retirement succession has to come up. Where is this discussion now?

[Susan Morrison]

Last year, there was a flurry of rumors of people who would take over. Seth Meyers, Colin Jost. I just don't think he'll ever leave until he has to, like in a box, until he's carried out of there on a stretcher. He describes the show as the TV equivalent of a David Lean epic. It's very expensive. It's very wasteful. You know, cutting all these sketches at the last minute means scrapping very expensive sets and costumes. And I just. It's really hard for me to even think that NBC would keep it going without him.

[David Remnick]

Is it still profitable?

[Susan Morrison]

Oh, I think it is. Yeah. I think it is.

[David Remnick]

So why wouldn't they keep it going if they could?

[Susan Morrison]

I think his personality is just a huge part of it.

[David Remnick]

But how many people are watching it now? Or are they watching it in bits the next morning?

[Susan Morrison]

There's a fame. Amy Poehler famously said at the 40th anniversary SNL is the show that your parents used to have sex to and now you watch on your computer at work the next day.

[David Remnick]

Yeah.

[Susan Morrison]

So people consume it. You know, people, you know, you watch a sketch on the phone, on the subway, you watch it.

[David Remnick]

But he must hate that.

[Susan Morrison]

Well, I don't know. I think he likes it if people watch it live. It's the same way recording artists still make LPs, and they think that someone's gonna sit down and listen to, you know, and put the style of the straight. Pay attention to the sequencing. I mean, we'll sit around and talk about, oh, should this be a column or it should be a well piece. And we all know that to the average reader, this means nothing. Zippity doo. But I think that for us and for Lorne Michaels, the fact that what we do, these things are so modular, you know, I mean, people can read Talk of the Town piece on the subway and then switch to the fantastic Alice Munro piece in the same way that somebody can sit on their phone and watch a cold open and then watch the musical act. And it's actually beneficial to all of us.

[David Remnick]

So just for the record, you think that he'll go as long as he possibly can physically, and then when he ends, it ends.

[Susan Morrison]

I think that's not an impossible idea. The other thing I might, I would think of is that I could imagine a kind of coalition of a handful of people taking it over. There's a.

[David Remnick]

Like, after the death of Stalin, they had a few people and then finally Khrushchev prevailed.

[Susan Morrison]

Good analogy.

[David Remnick]

Susan Morrison, thank you.

[Susan Morrison]

Thank you, David. It was great to walk down the hall and sit here and talk to you.

[David Remnick]

Susan Morrison's new book is launched, the man who Invented Saturday Night Live. You can read an excerpt of the book, which ran in the magazine@new yorker.com and you can subscribe to the New Yorker there as well. New yorker.com that's the new Yorker Radio Hour for this week and thanks for listening. See you next time.

The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co production of WNYC Studios and the New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbus of Tune Yards, with additional music by Louis Mitchell and Jared Paul. This episode was produced by Max Bolton, Adam Howard, David Krasnow, Jeffrey Masters, Louis Mitchell, Jared Paul and Ursula Sommer.

[Susan Morrison]

And we had special assistance this week.

[David Remnick]

From Jonathan Mitchell, with guidance from Emily Bottin and assistance from Michael May, David Gable, Alex Barish, Victor Gwan and Alejandra Deckett. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Cherina Endowment Fund.

[Susan Morrison]

Hey, podcast listeners.

[David Remnick]

I'm Chris Marocco, food director of Bon.

[Susan Morrison]

Appetit and Epicurious and host of the Dinner SOS podcast.

[David Remnick]

Every week on Dinner sos, my test.

[Susan Morrison]

Kitchen colleagues and I help listeners figure out what they should be cooking right now. And this winter, we're helping you embrace all things cozy cooking, letting you join.

[David Remnick]

The Ba Bake Club and getting back.

[Susan Morrison]

To basics with simple strategies to level up your home cooking. So don't miss out.

[David Remnick]

Listen to and follow Dinner SOS wherever you get your podcasts, and if you have your own kitchen question, email us@ninnersoson appetit.com Happy cooking.