Podcast Summary: The New Yorker Radio Hour

Episode: How the Irish Border Keeps Derailing Brexit
Date: November 5, 2019
Host: David Remnick
Guests: Patrick Radden Keefe, Simon Carswell

Overview

This episode, hosted by David Remnick, delves into why the Irish border has become one of the most contentious and destabilizing factors in the Brexit process. With expert insights from New Yorker staff writer Patrick Radden Keefe and Simon Carswell of The Irish Times, the show unpacks the historical, political, and human ramifications of the border and why its future is crucial not just for Ireland and the UK, but for peace in Europe.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Historical Context of the Irish Border (00:10–03:38)

• Partition and Tensions:

  • Patrick Radden Keefe explains Ireland is divided into the Republic (26 counties) and Northern Ireland (6 counties), a split fraught with conflict.
  • The border became a flashpoint during “The Troubles”—a bloody 30-year conflict fueled by Irish Republicans (seeking reunification) and Loyalists (wanting to remain with the UK), resulting in over 3,600 deaths.
  • “That border, barely 300 miles long, has become the third rail of the Brexit process.” — David Remnick (00:32)

• Peace and the Good Friday Agreement:

  • The 1998 Good Friday Agreement significantly demilitarized the border, making it virtually invisible and allowing free movement, contributing to sustained peace.

2. Brexit and the Border Problem (03:01–04:14)

• Brexit’s decision to leave the EU threatens to reinstate a "hard border" with customs and immigration checks between Northern Ireland (leaving EU) and the Republic (remaining in EU).
• A hard border could destabilize peace arrangements and daily life for border residents.

3. Human Impact: Everyday Life on the Border (04:14–06:51)

• Simon Carswell’s Border Reporting:
  • Focuses on everyday people whose lives are shaped by the border’s existence or lack thereof.
  • Carswell shares childhood memories of border tension—soldiers with guns, late-night crossings filled with fear.
  • Today, the border is so seamless that many don’t notice when they cross it.
  • “For the past 20 odd years it's been invisible.” — Simon Carswell (06:18)

4. Generational Fears and Memories (07:01–08:51)

• Schoolchildren's Stories:
  • Children in Crossmaglen, a border area, recount family experiences of violence during the Troubles and express anxieties about returning to such times.
  • “My mommy…told me that when she was there she had to go on the table and she saw a bullet fly across and it went through the two windows.” — School Child (08:16)
  • “They're extremely aware… they don't want to return to it.” — Simon Carswell (08:39)

5. Economic Dimensions: Trade & Transport (08:51–10:12)

• Truck drivers and logistical workers rely on seamless border crossings; restoring checks would affect goods, shelf lives, and costs.
• “If you put up any kind of check, that's going to mean your goods are not going to get to the supermarkets as quickly…people are going to have to pay more for their food because of these additional costs.” — Simon Carswell (09:29)

6. Violence & Customs Posts: Warnings from History (10:12–12:14)

• Mary Casey, whose father was killed in a 1972 bombing at a customs post, illustrates the border’s tragic legacy and local apprehensions that politicians underestimate these risks.

• “Somebody goes out to work that morning and they come back in a plastic bag.” — Mary Casey (11:50)

• Disconnect with Politicians:

  • Locals believe British politicians have little real understanding of life on the border, sparking frustration.

7. Fears of Renewed Violence (13:08–14:44)

• Discussion of warnings from police and former paramilitaries that new border infrastructure would become a terrorist target.

• The Police Service of Northern Ireland has declared they would not police any new customs installations due to the risk.

• "The police have actually said that in Northern Ireland?...They see them as a threat from Republican groups."
  — Patrick Radden Keefe & Simon Carswell (14:28–14:44)

8. Political Solutions and New Risks (14:44–16:18)

• Boris Johnson’s plan to shift customs checks to ports in the Irish Sea effectively moves the border away from the land, intended to prevent unrest among Republicans.
• Risks alienating “loyalist” communities who see this as undermining Northern Ireland’s status in the UK and a possible move toward Irish reunification.
• Surge in Irish passport applications by Northern Irish citizens to retain EU rights.

9. A Referendum on Irish Unity? (16:18–18:11)

• The Good Friday Agreement allows for a “border poll” (referendum) on reunification.

• While some see Brexit as increasing the odds of a referendum, most political actors (except Sinn Féin) are wary of triggering such a divisive and complex process during Brexit turmoil.

• “This debate cannot take place in the kind of frenetic, frenzied debate around Brexit. We need to have... another day.” — Simon Carswell (17:02)

10. Brexit: Confusion and Complexity (18:02–18:38)

• The episode closes with reflection on the confusion and lack of clarity that has accompanied Brexit, making the Irish border question even more fraught.
• “It's one thing to have a referendum, it's another thing to work out the details of what it would actually look like.” — Patrick Radden Keefe (18:02)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the border’s dangers:
  *“It was dark, really kind of quite eerie…you’d see soldiers, British army soldiers, crouched down, holding guns…primed for action...”(05:20) — Simon Carswell

• On today’s seamless crossing:
  “They don’t actually…think there’s a border there at all because for the past 20 odd years it’s been invisible.” (06:18) — Simon Carswell

• On future violence and policing:
  “If there are installations going up along the border, then they would not police them. They see them as a threat from Republican groups.” (14:35) — Simon Carswell

• On Brexit confusion:
  “They don’t know what it means. They don’t know what kind of Brexit they want...That’s why this process has been so tricky.” (18:11) — Simon Carswell

Important Timestamps

• Historical Background & Troubles — 01:04–03:38
• Brexit's Impact — 03:01–04:14
• Life on the Border — 04:14–06:51
• Children's Fears & Memories — 07:01–08:51
• Trade Disruption — 08:51–10:12
• Customs Post Attack & Warnings — 10:12–12:14
• Local vs. Political (Dis)connection — 12:14–13:08
• Threats of Violence with New Border — 13:08–14:44
• Political "Solutions" & Community Reaction — 14:44–16:18
• Prospect of Irish Unity Referendum — 16:18–18:11
• Brexit's Unresolved Questions — 18:11–18:38

Conclusion

The episode insightfully presents the Irish border not simply as a bureaucratic friction point, but as a site of deep history, real trauma, and potential danger. The reflections and reporting underscore the real-world consequences of high-level political decisions on ordinary lives and the fragility of peace balanced on lines invisible until pressured by events like Brexit. For anyone seeking to understand the complexity and stakes behind the Irish border question in Brexit, this episode delivers a grounded, human perspective.