The New Yorker Radio Hour
"How the Trump Administration Made Higher Education a Target"
Host: David Remnick
Guest: Emma Greene, New Yorker Staff Writer
Date: October 17, 2025
Episode Overview
This episode examines the Trump administration's aggressive and unprecedented campaign to reshape American higher education, targeting elite universities and leveraging federal funding as a tool. Host David Remnick speaks with Emma Greene, whose in-depth reporting for The New Yorker investigates both the policy strategies and cultural motivations behind these sweeping actions. The conversation explores how campus culture wars, populist skepticism, and long-standing conservative frustrations converged into a robust, coordinated federal agenda, and what this means for the future of universities in America.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. From Incrementalism to "Paradigm Shift": How the 2nd Trump Administration Changed Tactics
[01:10] Emma Greene:
- Officials from both Trump administrations wish they'd been "more aggressive" the first time.
- The first administration made incremental changes; the current one pursues "muscular," coordinated actions.
- Greene cites the freezing of hundreds of millions of dollars to Harvard over allegations of antisemitism as an example that "would have been unthinkable" in 2017.
- The approach is now about "changing the paradigm" rather than just reform.
“The things that they were doing now in 2025 would have been unthinkable in 2017.” — Emma Greene [01:29]
2. A Backlash to Cultural Change and Social Justice
[02:50] Emma Greene:
- Trump’s higher-ed agenda is partly a direct reaction to perceived overreach in social justice and diversity initiatives, particularly after the Biden years.
- Conservative officials see higher education as "ground zero" for societal change they find extreme.
“They see higher ed as the common theme in all of this cultural change, and they see that cultural change as being extreme, something that needs a really muscular response.” — Emma Greene [03:01]
3. The Inside Architect: Mae Mailman
[04:05]
- Mae Mailman, former Stephen Miller deputy, became the central coordinator of the administration’s education effort.
- Organized an "anti-Semitism task force" with cross-agency coordination.
- Known for "strike force" tactics—coordinated, rapid responses to target institutions.
- Seen by insiders as "running the show," ensuring all agencies acted "in lockstep."
“It created this kind of remarkable effect... almost like a strike force where when the administration decided to take on a particular school, they would have these series of letters or press statements or announcements that would happen, boom, boom, boom, one right after another.” — Emma Greene [05:00]
Mae Mailman's Worldview:
- Grew up biracial in rural Kansas, went through Teach for America.
- Developed a distaste for what she called a "victimhood" narrative in education, wanting practical skills focus over feelings or inequity.
“The first year they really were trying to help us teach... The second year, the focus was a little bit different. It was like understand racial inequity... And I was like, well, this is a problem because I need to teach my kids math tomorrow.” — Mae Mailman [06:38]
- Advocates for "academic freedom" for conservatives, but opposes federal funding for programs she sees as promoting "racism and racial hierarchies and violence and harassment."
“No one is more committed to academic freedom than conservatives... at the same time, when you have federal grants, you do not need to be funding racism and racial hierarchies and violence and harassment... do what you want to do, but we don’t have to fund it.” — Mae Mailman [08:47]
4. The Unique Moment: Culture Wars, Economics, and Campus Protest
[13:04] Emma Greene:
- The convergence of October 7th’s protests, debates over DEI (Diversity, Equity, Inclusion), and broadening skepticism about the value and cost of a college degree created political "permission to go farther."
- Populist anger feeds both cultural and economic critiques of universities.
“There's so much political salience to it... people don't believe that that fair deal is playing out.” — Emma Greene [13:31]
5. Populist Economic Critique & Partisan Approaches
- David Remnick wonders if Obama/Biden were blind to these changes.
- Greene and former Biden education official James Kfal argue Democrats addressed populist anger with student debt reform but from a different angle, focusing less on cultural grievances.
“We need to recognize that we shouldn’t be making loans to people who are unlikely to be able to repay them... I think it is a step forward that we now have agreement across the parties on that.” — James Kfal [15:47]
6. Conservative Grievances: Ideological Uniformity and Decline of the Humanities
- Recounts Princeton’s shift from "just one conservative" to “23”; notes longstanding complaints about ideological homogeneity on campuses.
- Humanities majors are dwindling: Is it cultural, practical, or both? Greene sees the current dynamic as “really unsettled.” [17:11–18:42]
7. The Leverage of Federal Funding: The "Compact on Excellence"
[19:57–21:05]
- Administration’s main leverage is research funding, which mostly affects science/engineering, not humanities.
- New “Compact on Excellence” offers universities preferential funding in exchange for pledging to forgo race/gender in admissions, ensure ideological diversity, and uphold “institutional neutrality.”
- Some professors’ organizations decry this as manipulation and a threat to academic freedom.
“It's the carrot to the carrot and stick, arguably. And the idea is that they're trying to incentivize universities to sign onto this vision culturally...” — Emma Greene [21:05]
8. Effectiveness of the Trump Strategy
- Even elite schools feel compelled to conform because critical research funding (and federal student aid) is at risk.
- "Harvard has to come sit" at the table. [24:00–24:33]
9. Conservative Endgame:
- Seeking not just policy changes but "culture change" in higher ed.
- Conservatives now embrace robust federal action—even as they claim to value academic freedom.
“Conservatives learning to stop worrying and love federal power... The idea that they're in charge of the government, they can do stuff and they want to do stuff and they want to use the levers that are available to them to make change.” — Emma Greene [24:52]
10. Antisemitism as Cudgel or Concern?
- Administration draws a broad, "expansive" line between antisemitism and anti-Israel protest, deploying the issue as both legitimate concern and political tool.
- Critics say it’s a pretext for punishing universities they dislike; Greene acknowledges the complexity.
“There is an argument then by critics who would say, actually a lot of this is just using the Jews to crack down on campuses that you hate.” — Emma Greene [28:50]
11. The Future: Power, Precedent, and Uncertainty
- Even if power reverses, both parties are now more comfortable with "forceful" executive action in higher ed.
- No expectation that the fight will subside, regardless of who wins the White House.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- “Trump versus Harvard, if we can boil it down to that, is nothing less than a conservative campaign to change the way private and state colleges operate.” — David Remnick [00:49]
- “It was almost like a strike force.” — Emma Greene [05:05]
- “She tries to be modest about it... but in terms of the person who was actually making the agenda actually happening on the ground, it was Mae Mailman.” — Emma Greene [05:56]
- “American schools are mostly educating kids who like to go to riots.” — Mae Mailman, per Greene [08:26]
- “There seems to be an element of vengeance to it.” — David Remnick [20:07]
- “You can make them come to the table. You, as May Mailman told me, conservatives have a seat at the table now and Harvard has to come sit.” — Emma Greene [24:30]
Important Timestamps
| Timestamp | Topic / Quote | |-----------|--------------------------------------------------| | 01:10 | Changing tactics: incrementalism to paradigm shift | | 04:05 | Mae Mailman’s role and strike-force approach | | 06:38 | Mailman’s Teach for America experience | | 08:47 | Mailman on academic freedom and federal funds | | 13:04 | Why this is a unique political moment | | 15:47 | James Kfal on bipartisan loan reform | | 17:11 | Ideological diversity & decline in humanities | | 19:57 | Funding cuts & leverage | | 21:05 | "Compact on Excellence" explained | | 24:52 | Conservative endgame and embrace of power | | 28:21 | Antisemitism as campus flashpoint |
Tone and Voice
The episode features thoughtful inquiry and critical discussion, with Emma Greene offering deeply reported analysis and direct citations from administration actors. The tone is serious but accessible, with moments of pointed commentary and personal insight from both Remnick and Greene.
For more, read Emma Greene’s report, "Inside the Trump Administration’s Assault on Higher Education," at newyorker.com.