The New Yorker Radio Hour

Episode: Julián Castro Is Not Afraid
Date: April 26, 2019
Host: David Remnick
Guests: Julián Castro, Taylor Mac, Michael Shulman

Episode Overview

This episode of The New Yorker Radio Hour features two main segments. In the first, host David Remnick interviews Julián Castro—former Secretary of Housing and Urban Development and 2020 Democratic presidential candidate—delving into his bold immigration policy proposals and his personal motivations for entering the race. The conversation explores Castro’s willingness to directly confront President Trump on immigration, his plans for reform, issues of political courage, and his overall vision for the country. The second segment features a conversation between Michael Shulman and playwright-performer Taylor Mac about “Gary: A Sequel to Titus Andronicus,” exploring the origins, themes, and personal experiences that shaped the work.

Segment 1: Julián Castro – Redefining the Immigration Debate

Background & Motivation (01:14 – 02:44)

• Castro’s Personal Connection to Immigration
  • Shares his family’s immigrant story: “My family story is an American, an immigrant's American dream story. I grew up with a grandmother that had come over from Mexico when she was 7. She worked as a maid, a cook, and a babysitter.” (01:19)
  • Activist roots: His mother was part of the Mexican American civil rights movement and instilled the importance of participation in democratic processes.

Tackling Trump & Immigration (02:44 – 05:08)

• Confrontation of Trump’s Rhetoric
  • Remnick asks directly, “Is Donald Trump a racist?” Castro responds:
    • “No, I think he behaves like a racist.” (02:57)
    • “I don't think there is a difference... Yeah, I believe that he has been racist, sure.” (03:03)
• Bold Immigration Policy
  • “I've released a People First Immigration plan that represents a completely different vision.” (03:25)
  • Central tenets:
    • Treat border crossing as a civil violation, not a federal crime.
    • Reduce immigration case backlogs and create a path to citizenship for undocumented people.
    • Proposal of a Marshall Plan–style investment in Central America to address root causes of migration.

Policy Details and Implementation (05:08 – 07:31)

• Repealing Federal Criminalization of Undocumented Entry
  • Historical context: “Before 2004, we used to basically treat this as a civil violation... After 2004, we started using incarceration more and treating it as a crime. That's what's led to this mess with family detention, with separation, with the backlog that we have.” (05:18)
• ICE Reform vs. Abolition
  • Contrasts his plan to “break up” ICE and reorganize its functions, instead of abolishing it:
    • “I want to break it up and separate the enforcement part of it... enforcement would be better served if we actually break ICE apart and separate Homeland Security investigations from the other part of ICE.” (06:20)
  • Believes in reconstituting, not doing away with, enforcement:
    • “I don't think that it should go on the way that it's been. I think that it needs to be changed from the way that agents are trained to administratively where it's located in the federal government.” (07:11)

Addressing “Open Borders” Attacks & Core Values (07:31 – 10:03)

• Rejecting False Narratives
  • “I'm not [for open borders]. And nobody is talking about open borders. We have 654 miles of fencing... But the thing is, David, as you know, it doesn't matter if I have a plan... He’s going to say we’re all for open borders, just like they’re going to call us socialists.” (07:43)
• Humanizing Immigration
  • “The beauty of this country, that people still see this country as a place of opportunity and safety. And that is beautiful in its own way... I'm not afraid of the president on this issue.” (08:32, 09:09)
  • Moving moment: “As depressing and dismaying as it was to be at this Ursula processing center where they were separating children from their families, it was uplifting to see that the activists that were there were white and black and of all different backgrounds, that not only Latino.” (09:34)

On Impeachment and the Mueller Report (10:03 – 11:13)

• Castro’s Take on Impeachment
  • “I believe that the predicate is there for impeachment, that the question is going to become this guy on these different occasions basically tried to obstruct justice. The fact that he was Fredo and not Michael...” (10:27)
  • Clarifies with “The fact that he was Fredo, nobody respected him enough to carry out his orders... That does not absolve him... I hope they do [impeach].” (10:42, 11:10)

Campaign Strategy & Personal Reflections (11:13 – 14:43)

• Path to Victory
  • Focus on early primary states: “My path is, of course, I'm going to focus a lot on these early states, especially that first state of Iowa... I've gotten the strongest reaction in Nevada.” (11:46, 12:12)
  • Explains what good and bad campaign events feel like:
    • “There is a range of bad, right? A range of bad from people walking out of the room while you're talking to not really paying attention.” (12:39)
  • On tough topics: “I'm very blunt about this issue of police brutality... I don't know if it's directly related to that, but have basically had enough of what you say. So be it.” (12:58)
• Political Resilience
  • On potentially running for other office: “I'm not even gonna think about that right now. Let me give you the typical politician's response, David, and I'll do my typical...” (14:06)
  • Motivation: “I'm not the front runner now, but I wasn't born a front runner. I didn't grow up a front runner. I'm... doing what families across the country do and what my family did, which is to work hard, to scrap, to do everything that I can do to be successful, and I believe that I can be.” (14:17)

Highlighted Quotes

• “I don't buy into the BS narrative that the people who are coming to the southern border represent a national security threat.” — Julián Castro (08:11)
• “There’s something a lot worse than the day when so many people want to come to this country, which is the day that nobody wants to come to this country.” — Julián Castro (08:36, quoting his brother Joaquin)
• “I'm not afraid of the president on this issue.” — Julián Castro (09:09)

Segment 2: Taylor Mac – Making Art from Chaos (“Gary: A Sequel to Titus Andronicus”)

Broadway, Titus Andronicus, and a Radical New Comedy (15:58 – 23:42)

• Michael Shulman introduces Taylor Mac’s play, setting, and creative identity:
  • “Taylor is a playwright and drag queen, a performance artist, and what I would call an avant garde maximalist.” (15:58)
  • The play “Gary” opens with a banquet hall full of bodies after a coup, continuing the carnage where Shakespeare left off.
• Process and Gross-out Humor
  • Mac details the cleaning of corpses as a metaphor and source of comedy:
    • "I wanted to make it as disgusting as it could be and still have people listen to the play." (18:46)
    • “There’s tons of scatological humor...” (19:03)
    • Memorable moment: “There's also a corpse who pees into Nathan Lane's eye. So stuff like that tends to stick with you.” (19:22–19:29)
• The Play’s Deeper Themes
  • Personal tragedy and societal grief inspired the play:
    • “I made a 24 hour concert... Then right after that, I had to fly to California and do hospice work for my mom who was dying. And then the election happened, and then two days later she died... so it kind of brought back some of that stuff.” (20:19)
    • More personal: Mac recounts jogging in Mexico and discovering a drowned corpse on the beach, which led to reflection on societal responsibility and inspired elements of the play. (21:22)
• "Cleaning is immoral"
  • Mac untangles the provocative line:
    • “We're not really cleaning. We're just kind of brushing everything under the surface and acting like it's clean... we're not really doing the hard work to end systemic racism, classism, and all of the isms.” (22:47)

Artistic Approach & Life Experience (23:42 – 29:59)

• Drag, Audience Work, and Queer Visibility
  • Learning from drag performance:
    • “If something is threatening to take the story away from the storyteller, you have to incorporate that... Otherwise, they take over the story.” (24:02)
    • Anecdote about handling hecklers and collaborating with the unpredictable.
• Growing Up in Stockton, CA
  • The pain and support of a difficult adolescence:
    • “At the time? It was that I wanted to get out... I was getting beat up. I was harassed on a regular basis. I had a very unhappy home life. And yet I had these wonderful friends that I met there... and I just love them dearly.” (25:25)
• Profound Moments of Community
  • Attending the AIDS Walk in San Francisco:
    • “The first time I saw an out homosexual is thousands, all at the same time... That juxtaposition, but also because they were building themselves, because they were being torn apart.” (26:45)
• On the Privilege of Subtlety
  • Mac reflects on expression in theater:
    • “Subtlety is a privilege... It's that it is a privilege that if you want to be subtle... all those AIDS activists had to fight for our right to be alive. And there was a clock was ticking.” (28:11)
    • Critiques the assumption that subtlety is always more authentic, linking it to Puritan roots:
      • “Sometimes subtlety is confused with authenticity. And the only reason we think subtlety is authentic over an extravaganza is because of the Puritan dominance over expression.” (29:41)

Notable Quotes and Moments

• Taylor Mac: “We're just trying to do the bare minimum so that we can get by and make it look nice for the people who are basically in charge so that they can continue to be in charge.” (23:14)
• On drag performance: “My drag mother used to say to me... those horrible people, she said, no, no, not horrible. They just wanted to be part of the show.” (24:42)
• On Stockton and art: “I have to kind of honor Stockton in a way for helping to make whatever it is that I am and this life is and this art that I’m making.” (25:25)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Julián Castro Interview

  • Personal story & activist roots: 01:14–02:44
  • On Trump’s racism: 02:44–03:09
  • "People First Immigration" plan: 03:25–05:08
  • Repealing federal criminalization, ICE reform: 05:08–07:31
  • Addressing “open borders” attack: 07:31–10:03
  • On impeachment: 10:03–11:13
  • Path to nomination & event experiences: 11:13–14:43

• Taylor Mac & "Gary"

  • Introduction to the play: 15:58–19:29
  • Personal grief & societal metaphor: 20:07–23:42
  • On drag, community, and childhood: 23:42–26:45
  • On privilege and authenticity in art: 28:03–29:59

Conclusion

This episode presents two profiles in creative and political courage. Julián Castro emerges as a candidate who refuses to shy away from the complexities of immigration, grounding his policy in personal history and social justice values, while challenging both party orthodoxy and Trumpism head-on. Taylor Mac, meanwhile, transforms mourning, trauma, and societal neglect into art that embraces both the absurd and the profound, offering a critique of our tendency to conceal rather than address life’s messiness. Whether in politics or theater, both segments encourage facing uncomfortable realities with honesty, boldness, and a belief in collective progress.