Podcast Summary: The New Yorker Radio Hour

Episode: Leon Panetta on the Trump Administration’s Venezuelan Boat Strikes
Date: December 12, 2025
Host: David Remnick
Guest: Leon Panetta (former Secretary of Defense, CIA Director)

Overview

This episode explores the Trump Administration's escalating military actions against Venezuela, specifically focusing on controversial Navy strikes on alleged drug trafficking boats, including a second strike on survivors—actions some call war crimes. David Remnick interviews Leon Panetta, seasoned government official and defense expert, who offers candid insight into the legality, ethics, and broader implications of these actions, as well as the dangers of the Administration’s approach to military force, its global posture, and internal dysfunction within American democracy.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Venezuelan Naval Strikes: Accountability and Potential War Crimes

• Background: The U.S. Navy has targeted boats off Venezuela, allegedly striking a vessel twice to kill survivors of an initial attack—raising accusations of war crimes.
• Responsibility in Command:
  • Panetta argues that, regardless of chain-of-command technicalities, ultimate responsibility lies with the Secretary of Defense and the President.
    • “To stand back and say, oh, no, it was the admiral that took that strike. Baloney. The admiral was following orders…” —Leon Panetta [02:33]
    • “I always hold the person at the top of the command responsible, not the person who's in the middle or the bottom of the chain of command.” [02:47]
• On War Crimes Allegation:
  • Panetta is clear that attacking survivors in the water is contrary to the laws of war and basic human ethics.
    • “You have to rescue them… Just because you're in the military doesn't mean that you've lost respect for life.” [03:14, 03:38]

2. The "Fog of War" Defense

• Secretary Pete Hegseth’s Remarks: Hegseth cites "the fog of war" to justify possible civilian casualties and uncertainties.
  • “This is called the fog of war. This is what you and the press don't understand…” —Pete Hegseth [04:53]
• Panetta’s Rebuttal:
  • Cites clear video evidence showing no ambiguity in the killings.
    • “This is not the fog of war. This is a video that shows two individuals who were in the water who were survivors of the first attack… The real question is whether the actions that were then taken were responsible in accordance with the law.” —Panetta [06:02]
  • Emphasizes military responsibility, even in confusing or stressful circumstances.
    • “You have to bear responsibility for what happens under any circumstances.” [05:40]

3. Legality and Precedent in Anti-Drug Operations

• Panetta’s Perspective:
  • Prior administrations addressed drug trafficking via law enforcement (Coast Guard, DEA) rather than military engagement.
  • “We're not dealing with a military threat. We're dealing with a law enforcement problem. These are individuals who are violating the law. They're criminals.” [08:17]
  • Stresses importance of alliances in fighting drug trafficking, referencing successful cooperation with Colombia during his CIA tenure.
    • “If you really want to control drug trafficking… you really do have to build strong alliances with the countries there.” [09:14]

4. Strategic Objectives and Risks of Venezuela Escalation

• Unclear U.S. Motives:
  • Panetta questions the specific aims—regime change, oil, countering Chinese/Russian influence, or drug control.
    • “Is it regime change? Is it getting rid of Maduro? Is it stopping drug traffickers? …Just exactly what is the objective?” [10:40]
  • Criticizes the administration for failing to clarify the mission or its justification to the American people.
• Historical Warnings:
  • References the fraught history of U.S. interventions in Latin America, urging alliances over unilateral force.
    • “If we use our capabilities in the right way, we can build friendships in that part of the world rather than kind of operating like a bully.” [13:09–13:15]

5. Morale and Doctrine in the U.S. Military

• Concerns within the Ranks:
  • Panetta notes growing unease among military personnel over being used for law enforcement and political goals.
    • “I think there are growing questions within the department about whether they are, in fact, following law…” [13:41]
  • Asserts that the military’s primary role is to defend against foreign adversaries, not act as domestic law enforcement.

6. Trump Doctrine on Global Affairs: Ukraine and Taiwan

• On Ukraine and Russia:
  • Urges standing up strongly to Putin; equates current appeasement to dangerous historical precedents.
    • “The appeasement that I see taking place with Putin is as dangerous as the appeasement of Hitler at Munich.” [17:34]
    • “Pretty please does not work with Putin.” [18:31]
• On Taiwan and China:
  • Advocates for clear U.S. deterrence and support for Taiwan as a democracy.
    • “We are going to defend Taiwan. It's a democracy. They have a right to… determine how they govern themselves, not China, but the Taiwanese.” [20:55]

7. The Greatest Threat: Internal Dysfunction

• Panetta’s Deepest Worry:
  • More than any external adversary, Panetta fears internal polarization and governmental gridlock.
    • “I frankly worry right now that our democracy is dysfunctional and that because Democrats and Republicans are not willing to work together… I think that represents a real security threat to the United States…” [21:57]
  • Calls for bipartisan leadership to avoid crisis-driven governance, referencing government shutdowns and stalling on crucial issues like national debt and immigration.
    • “In a democracy, we govern either by leadership or crisis… If leadership's not there, we will govern by crisis. And that's what we've been doing for the last 20 years.” [22:56]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Military Accountability:
  • “The buck stops, frankly, with the President, but it also stops with the secretary.” —Leon Panetta [02:11]
• On Moral Conduct in War:
  • “Just because you're in the military doesn't mean that you've lost respect for life.” [03:38]
• On the Slippery Slope of Military Tactics:
  • “If you begin to go down that slippery slope, I'm not sure where it leads you in terms of our ability to conduct military strikes.” [07:12]
• On Marital within the Military:
  • “…there are growing questions within the department about whether they are, in fact, following law…” [13:41]
• On the Ukraine Conflict:
  • “You have to stand tough when you're dealing with a tyrant like Putin. You cannot trust Putin.” [17:45]
• On China and Taiwan:
  • “How can you be tough on China if you're weak on Russia?” [20:28]
• On the U.S.'s Greatest Security Threat:
  • “The greatest weakness we're displaying to the world is our dysfunction in Washington and the inability to work to deal with the threats that we face.” [23:36]
  • “More than North Korea, more than China, more than the Middle East, what worries you… is the enemy within, what plagues us here, which is the battle against democracy from within the White House.” —David Remnick [23:38]
  • “That's right.” —Leon Panetta [23:56]

Key Timestamps

• [00:11] – David Remnick introduces episode and context of Trump administration’s military actions.
• [02:08–03:36] – Panetta discusses responsibility for Venezuela strikes and addresses allegations of war crimes.
• [04:53–06:30] – Pete Hegseth’s “fog of war” defense; Panetta rebuts with evidence and legal context.
• [08:03–09:55] – Discussion on drug trafficking, appropriate roles for the military vs. law enforcement, the importance of alliances.
• [10:40–13:17] – Panetta questions U.S. objectives in Venezuela, historical context of U.S. interventions, warnings about “operating like a bully.”
• [13:41–14:28] – Morale issues in the Pentagon regarding Trump administration policies.
• [16:10–19:41] – Panetta’s views on Ukraine, Russia, and necessity for U.S. toughness.
• [19:44–21:36] – Discussion on China, defense of Taiwan, and strategic posture.
• [21:57–25:23] – Panetta’s candid concerns about America’s “enemy within”—the growing threats from internal division and government dysfunction.

Tone & Style

Panetta is blunt, principled, and deeply concerned—taking a statesmanlike but unflinching stance on matters of military ethics, legality, and the existential risks to American democracy itself. Remnick’s questions are probing, serious, and clearly designed to illuminate accountability and the gravity of the administration's choices.

This summary distills the rich, critical conversation for listeners who want to understand the profound implications of current U.S. military and political strategies—at home and abroad.